Author Topic: Model F Mod Log  (Read 29877 times)

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Offline ch_123

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #100 on: Wed, 18 November 2009, 16:53:59 »
They don't... Where did you get that idea?

Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #101 on: Wed, 18 November 2009, 16:59:22 »
Quote from: ch_123;133838
They don't... Where did you get that idea?


that's a model m alt key in the photo :)

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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #102 on: Wed, 18 November 2009, 17:02:09 »
Quote from: ripster;133821
Regarding Ghosting it seems to me that it doesn't matter what kind of switch mechanism is used.  It's inherent to the way the matrix is laid out.  

The other thing is keybounce and other issues and how a capacative circuit handles that.   Dunno - seems complicated. May be wrong - I'm not an EE.


i'm not sure either, yet... but i suspect the capacitive technology is nowhere near as complex as i had assumed :)

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Offline JBert

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #103 on: Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:23:42 »
Quote from: ripster;133821
Regarding Ghosting it seems to me that it doesn't matter what kind of switch mechanism is used.  It's inherent to the way the matrix is laid out.  

The other thing is keybounce and other issues and how a capacative circuit handles that.   Dunno - seems complicated. May be wrong - I'm not an EE.
Actually, it's easy once you think of it: the capacitance varies with the distance between the hammer and board. When the hammer bounces, it only bounces a fraction of the distance it should usually overcome to be considered closed so the capacitance won't vary much. Hence the only thing you need is a "Schmitt trigger" which has two states: [capacitance is less than "switch closed" threshold] or [capacitance is greater than the "open switch" threshold]. Anything in-between is considered hysteresis so you simply stay in the current state.

Compare this with a regular switch: either you have a running current or you don't. Bouncing is a form of the latter. Result: you need timing to see if the switch stopped bouncing when you lost contact.

Capacitance sensing clearly wins here in simplicity...
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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #104 on: Fri, 20 November 2009, 13:49:45 »
Quote from: JBert;134619
Hence the only thing you need is a "Schmitt trigger" which has two states: [capacitance is less than "switch closed" threshold] or [capacitance is greater than the "open switch" threshold]. Anything in-between is considered hysteresis so you simply stay in the current state.


the trigger sounds easy to simulate through software, and i'll bet a single pulse to the sensor pads can be used to sample a switch's state.

maybe the threshold function can be performed by just reading a digital input on the uC... if voltage of received pulse > logic high threshold (2.5v), then switch is closed and input reads "1".

that'd be awesomely simple :D

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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 20 November 2009, 14:00:23 »
excellent find... thanks ripster, and talis :)

i'm thinking of an alternate technique, which i believe model f uses:

when a hammer is too far away from its pads, there's too little capacitive coupling between a pin generating a test pulse and an input pin (both on the microcontroller)... so the test pulse is too weak to be detected.

but when a hammer is close enough, coupling is strong and a pulse comes through.

where's talis, to debunk this theory? ;D

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Offline msiegel

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cutting progress
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 27 November 2009, 18:45:05 »
both plates cut to size




top plate - cutouts made for new bottom row layout




the tabs for shift key stabilizer bars have been destroyed in the process of cutting. this mod will use shift keys that do not have stabilizer bars :)
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 November 2009, 18:48:56 by msiegel »

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Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline ch_123

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #107 on: Fri, 27 November 2009, 18:47:39 »
Cool stuff.

I assume extra barrels are going to go into the space you cut out beside the space bar? Are you making your own keyed strips?

Offline chimera15

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #108 on: Fri, 27 November 2009, 19:05:46 »
awesomeness.  Might end up doing this mod myself if you can help me figure out how to program the teensy. ;)

I'm still really curious about the details of how you're going to interface the matrix with a new pcb and everything too. ;)
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 November 2009, 19:16:16 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline microsoft windows

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 28 November 2009, 07:47:58 »
On most buckling spring keyboards, the shift keys don't need stablizer bars anyway.
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Offline ch_123

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 28 November 2009, 08:37:49 »
That's true of Model Ms made after 1989. Not the Model F or older Model Ms. Although perhaps the newer stabilizer slots would fix that - or at least timw4mail said as much.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 November 2009, 08:41:34 by ch_123 »

Offline ak_nala

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #111 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:00:06 »
Perhaps a step drill bit in a drill press? Then nibble, saw (jeweler's saw) and/or file the notch?

Seems a simpler and less expensive solution than a specialized punch, especially with a thick plate and the risk of deforming the curve in the process of punching (but then my experience with punches is pretty limited).
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:06:24 by ak_nala »
No matter where you go, there you are...

Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #112 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:20:09 »
these are the tools used so far.

since this is a prototype, i'm thinking of using wood for the left side of the bottom row. if all goes well i'll re-use a strip of four cutouts for the right side :)

next i plan to take a break from metalwork to address the electronics.


Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #113 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:25:02 »
Quote from: ripster;137067
Is the concrete to make the heaviest keyboard ever?  :P

:D it's better than lead

i used the hammer and bag of concrete to get the top plate back in shape after accidentally bending it during cutting. between the nibbler and the clamps it got a few big dents :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:27:42 by msiegel »

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #114 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:38:59 »
:D i thought the Monolith was touch-activated...

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Offline chimera15

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #115 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 01:39:33 »
Is that somewhere in Japan?
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline PRISONER 24601

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #116 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 04:21:15 »
This thread/project is amazing. kudos.
Have you tried contacting IBM for the controller information? I mean, this patent is at least 100 years old it can't be a big company secret or anything. Probably not. At the worst, they'd just hang up on you.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #117 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 13:21:05 »
Quote from: ripster;137069
Here's a mouse to go with it.
Show Image


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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #118 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 14:28:26 »
apparently those are in Xiamen, China

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Offline chimera15

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #119 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 14:38:59 »
Quote from: msiegel;137219
apparently those are in Xiamen, China

Cool, wonder if I can see them in google earth. lol Maybe China isn't that detailed though....

 Edit: Well couldn't find them, but that's a real pretty city.  Lots of sculpture.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 November 2009, 14:53:51 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #120 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 15:05:31 »
Quote from: PRISONER 24601;137079
This thread/project is amazing. kudos.
Have you tried contacting IBM for the controller information? I mean, this patent is at least 100 years old it can't be a big company secret or anything. Probably not. At the worst, they'd just hang up on you.

thank you :D

i'll start by studying this patent. page 9 describes how a capacitive sensor matrix works.

the patent is for ibm's beam-spring keyboards, but it looks like the same type of sensor matrix that's used in the model f.

edit: details on ibm's capacitive sensor matrix technology. maybe this explains why there are a bunch of NOR chips on the model f controller card :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 November 2009, 23:40:21 by msiegel »

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Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #121 on: Sun, 29 November 2009, 22:46:02 »
keys mounted, to keep them sorted out.

the keys will be about 3mm taller when springs and hammers are installed -- the barrels will be quite visible :)




this prototype has a thin bezel on the sides.

for the "official" version, i'm planning a 1/2 inch bezel on the sides and front, about 1 inch at the top... as well as a 1/4 inch-tall rubber gasket sandwiched between the plates, that sticks out 1/16 inch all the way around the board as a bumper. the plates will be cnc-machined 20 gauge stainless steel :)

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Offline chimera15

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #122 on: Mon, 30 November 2009, 00:28:03 »
Looks awesome!  This is the first thing I've typed using dvorak without looking at a cheat card! :)
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #123 on: Mon, 30 November 2009, 00:36:27 »
Quote from: chimera15;137367
Looks awesome!  This is the first thing I've typed using dvorak without looking at a cheat card! :)


:D congratulations!

i hope i can learn even half that fast when the time comes for me to study touch typing :)

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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #124 on: Mon, 30 November 2009, 20:38:17 »
low-Z amplifier design for capacitive sensors
http://www.capsense.com/capsense-wp.pdf

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Offline msiegel

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Model F Mod Log
« Reply #125 on: Thu, 03 December 2009, 15:10:07 »
sensor matrix note:

according to a formula in the ibm capacitive matrix patent, it's likely the sensor pad output current is in the range of 1 to 10 microamps, when fed with a 5 volt pulse to test the switch state.

can an AVR sense that little current directly? if not, op amps will probably be needed on the 5 sense lines.

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
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