[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[RoastPotatoes]

Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere.  Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.

If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo.  The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!

I was thinking of a fancy realforce style box design. But I think it could be much harder to get right. If there is a good design, it could be a nice part to this whole project.

[romevi]

Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere.  Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.

If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo.  The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!

I was thinking of a fancy realforce style box design. But I think it could be much harder to get right. If there is a good design, it could be a nice part to this whole project.

The Realforce box is fancy?

[RoastPotatoes]

Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere.  Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.

If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo.  The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!

I was thinking of a fancy realforce style box design. But I think it could be much harder to get right. If there is a good design, it could be a nice part to this whole project.

The Realforce box is fancy?

I think it's a nice box. Maybe not fancy. The SSK had a nice box.

[Techno Trousers]

I know logos are a no-go, but what if it just said "F62/F77 revival keyboard" on all sides in a nice font (maybe red ink)? It would be good to have the boxes marked for easy ID in storage, if printing doesn't add significantly to the cost. Otherwise, I guess most of us will have to do the old sharpie scrawl on them later.

[RoastPotatoes]

I know logos are a no-go, but what if it just said "F62/F77 revival keyboard" on all sides in a nice font (maybe red ink)? It would be good to have the boxes marked for easy ID in storage, if printing doesn't add significantly to the cost. Otherwise, I guess most of us will have to do the old sharpie scrawl on them later.

Show Image

I think a marked box would be cool. This project is either going to be the start of many custom buckling spring projects. Or it could be a highly prized keyboard from the limited run of new kish's.

[RoastPotatoes]

What's the deadline for ordering one of these?

[Techno Trousers]

They haven't gone up for order yet. Maybe 1-2 months away from order time?

[RoastPotatoes]

They haven't gone up for order yet. Maybe 1-2 months away from order time?

So there is plenty of time to get money and decide.

[romevi]

Yeah, and Ellipse plans on running them for a while, too, I believe. A few months or so. Plenty of time to save and buy, especially since I've got a few customs coming up to save for.

[Ellipse]

Yes you have some time - prototypes are about 5 weeks away and I hope to leave things open for a month or so.

[Ellipse]

An update - the top and bottom inner assembly, outside Stryofoam, and box samples have been ordered!  I also ordered the F77 split right shift and F62 split right shift top inner assembly samples. 

The F77 and F62 case prototypes were ordered earlier this week. 

Tomorrow I hope to pay for the barrel and flipper molds and enough samples for an entire F77 and F62.  I decided against CNC milled plastic samples (way too expensive due to the intricate detail in each barrel), and I decided against 3D printing due to the tolerances not being good enough for this project. 

The spring factory has a spring force testing machine and they will be testing each of the thousands of springs to make sure they are within the original 1980s spring force spec tolerance range.  The spring tolerances I'm aiming for are two  times tighter than the currently produced Model M springs, meaning the buckling springs will hopefully be slightly more even than from a new production Model M that you could buy today.  Attached is a photo of original Model F and M springs and flippers (pivot plates) for reference, with some blue Industrial SSK keys in the background

[Air tree]

Very exited to see this become a reality, and even more exited that owning a kishsaver isn't as far fetched as I thought it was only a few months back. 

[Techno Trousers]

I'm super excited too. There are actually a lot more F62s than F77s known to still exist in the world. It's great that a lot more people will soon be able to get a replica of either... or both!

[joey]

If the barrels are not CNC, and they're not 3D printed, how are they made?

[darkspider]

I wonder whether we can order individual springs.

[Ellipse]

Joey-they are made by injection molding

Darkdpider-yes you can order extra springs

[joey]

Oh, nice!

[Ellipse]

The barrel and flipper (pivot plate) molds and samples have been ordered!  The complete prototypes are expected within 5-6 weeks, and then orders will open up (assuming the units test well). 

[RoastPotatoes]

Are these going to be named anything? Or will they just be called F62 and F77?

[Ellipse]

Yep F62 and F77! 

[darkspider]

I'm very sorry for asking many questions, but can we know how flexibly we can custom layout?
For instance, is it possible to assign arrow keys to HJKL+Fn like vim?

[geniekid]

I'm very sorry for asking many questions, but can we know how flexibly we can custom layout?
For instance, is it possible to assign arrow keys to HJKL+Fn like vim?

Yes, xwhatsit's controller (the one that will be driving these boards) is fully programmable.

[Ellipse]

119 keyboards' worth of interest so far

Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.

At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so.  Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).

[Elrick]

119 keyboards' worth of interest so far

Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.

At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so.  Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).

If anyone is truly interested in owning a GREAT Model-F like keyboard that is fully customized and manufactured this year, then this is it.

The real horror of this is when I finally receive this baby and I come to the brutal realization that Cherry, Thorpie and every other membrane based keyboard in the world, will melt away in the presence of this F77 .

[romevi]

119 keyboards' worth of interest so far

Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.

At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so.  Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).

If anyone is truly interested in owning a GREAT Model-F like keyboard that is fully customized and manufactured this year, then this is it.

The real horror of this is when I finally receive this baby and I come to the brutal realization that Cherry, Thorpie and every other membrane based keyboard in the world, will melt away in the presence of this F77 .

Most likely going to order one, but will wait when reviews and comparisons go up first.

[Melvang]

119 keyboards' worth of interest so far

Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.

At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so.  Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).

If anyone is truly interested in owning a GREAT Model-F like keyboard that is fully customized and manufactured this year, then this is it.

The real horror of this is when I finally receive this baby and I come to the brutal realization that Cherry, Thorpie and every other membrane based keyboard in the world, will melt away in the presence of this F77 .

I had that experience when I got my AT swapped to an xwhatsit controller.

As much as I would love to aquire one of these, I have to pass for now.

Hopefully a future run, I can get in on it if there is one.

[Ellipse]

An update: the barrel and flipper tooling have gone into production!

Also I expect to mix the gray and beige paint colors locally to try to get just the right color and then mail the paint to China, as there is not a close enough RAL or Pantone color to match the originals. Shipping will be expensive but I hope to have close to accurate colors.

Some have questioned RAL 7030 for the industrial gray color, so I expect to just bring in an Industrial SSK case and painted F77 or F122 case when they are doing the color matching/paint mixing and make sure they are appropriate colors.

Who has a preference for the 4704 color vs. the F122 color, for those who have seen both in person (they are tough to photograph)? My 4704 examples have more of a greenish beige/off white color but their colors are much more variable compared to my painted F122s. My photo can't accurately capture the difference which is more noticeable in person.

Interestingly the F77 keys approximately match the tinting of the case paint while my F122 keys approximately match the tinting of my painted 6/1984 F122 case.

[Ellipse]

Someone over on DT suggested doing a kickstarter campaign - including my reply here:

I want to first make whatever people order in the next month or two and make sure everything is good with that batch before doing a kickstarter campaign, which would take a couple months longer (I don't want to keep everyone waiting!). I could definitely use some help from the forums to get the word out on the kickstarter campaign.

Does anyone have experience doing a kickstarter campaign or having something made in China?

[Elrick]

Someone over on DT suggested doing a kickstarter campaign - including my reply here:

I want to first make whatever people order in the next month or two and make sure everything is good with that batch before doing a kickstarter campaign, which would take a couple months longer (I don't want to keep everyone waiting!). I could definitely use some help from the forums to get the word out on the kickstarter campaign.

As long as you keep everyone informed weekly at least, then there should be no problems there are a few other Koreans who are running Group Buys for building keyboards, yet have hardly communicated anything in weeks or even months so most are left feeling ripped off after handing over their money.

If anyone put in a half effort compared to BunnyLake (example) in answering questions and letting every one know what's happening weekly, then most Group Buys would go smoothly with out any problems.

When you keep totally quiet that cools everyone's enthusiasm and then later it can turn quite ugly for everyone concerned  .

[darkspider]

If you are to build a project in Kickstarter, is it before or after coming of a whole prototype?

[Ellipse]

After the prototype and after the first production run.

[Ellipse]

The F62 and F77 top inner assembly prototypes have been made!  They have not yet been powdercoated black.

[Elrick]

The F62 and F77 top inner assembly prototypes have been made!  They have not yet been powdercoated black.
(Attachment Link)

Kin25 and DrugER you aint  .

Looks like you really did do it, usually you get some people claiming they can build a particular keyboard, yet few actually deliver anything to the public.  Very interested in seeing this become a huge success and it damn well should.

Kudos for being an American and someone who stands behind his words and actions, that is why I love buying from true DECENT people  .

[Ellipse]

Thanks Elrick for the kind words.

Here are some more prototype photos! The F62 split right shift and F77 split right shift prototype top inner assemblies have also been made.

These might even be the first metal Model F parts to come off the assembly line in 20+ years!

[ghostjuggernaut]

Thanks Elrick for the kind words.

Here are some more prototype photos! The F62 split right shift and F77 split right shift prototype top inner assemblies have also been made.

These might even be the first metal Model F parts to come off the assembly line in 20+ years!

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Wow these are looking great. Can't wait for the final result!

[jbondeson]

Looking good! Excited to see this making progress toward a working prototype.

Now that I have my V60, I'm torn on whether I want the F77 or the F62 with split right-shift.

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

[Vizir]

OMG! Gorgeous!

[darkspider]

looking awesome

[Karura]

Quite excited for this. What else needs to be done?

[Ellipse]

We still need the custom-made styrofoam shipping packaging, the top and bottom metal case, the double-walled box, flippers, barrels, inner foam, and springs at this point.

The bottleneck will be the mold design for the barrels and flippers, which is still ongoing.

[dustinhxc]

Thanks Elrick for the kind words.

Here are some more prototype photos! The F62 split right shift and F77 split right shift prototype top inner assemblies have also been made.

These might even be the first metal Model F parts to come off the assembly line in 20+ years!

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Damn, looks awesome! 

[njbair]

I haven't been following this thread too closely because the price is too high for me at this point, but am I to assume, since you're having molds made, that you plan to produce these for sale even after the buy is finished (presumably at a higher price)?

[jorgenslee]

as someone who recently discovered the beauty of Buckling spring, I'm quite interested depends on if I can manage to get the funds the time the GB starts. I have a question though, does the goal price $350 is for the complete keyboard or is there something I need to source myself?

[romevi]

as someone who recently discovered the beauty of Buckling spring, I'm quite interested depends on if I can manage to get the funds the time the GB starts. I have a question though, does the goal price $350 is for the complete keyboard or is there something I need to source myself?

The goal price is definitely for the completed product, ready to use right out of the box.

You could also get it for $325 with no keycaps, which is what I plan on doing since I'm going to order some from Unicomp in the near future anyway.

[rowdy]

Those look fantastic!  Kinda like how I imagine a Model M or F would have looked back in the day, when the designers put the first prototype together, and management would have gotten all moist and excited about it!

[Elrick]

Those look fantastic!  Kinda like how I imagine a Model M or F would have looked back in the day, when the designers put the first prototype together, and management would have gotten all moist and excited about it!

In actual reality, Upper Management always have and will always get extremely "MOIST" and "EXCITED" when HUGE profits present themselves and it of course being totally TAX Free as well (icing on their cake).

Upper Management rely solely upon Accounting Figures to generate future motivations within any Corporate structure, unfortunately design, engineering and manufacture ranks fairly low on importance, as we have all witnessed over time.  Only this individual has bypassed those narrow minded tossers of a corporate structure, to develop this very special keyboard suitable for today and tomorrow PC's.

It will always be the enthusiasts that claim the future for us here, something that has to be noted and praised on Geekhack Central.

[Ellipse]

NJblair - nope I do not expect to make much more than what is ordered.  Happy to oblige anyone who decides to order a bunch and resell themselves in the future.  Some people said they are ordering two or more, one to use and the others to keep NIB and possibly sell down the line for much more than $350. 

The molds are just for the barrels and flippers.  The remaining components do not use molds but are milled for the most part and require setup costs and 50 to 100 unit minimums.  I expect to make not much more than what people order during the one month window, and given the setup costs there would need to be a lot of interest in a second round before it would make sense to incur setup costs again (a second round might go up on Kickstarter, who knows). 

So I recommend ordering during that month period whatever you'd like in the future, including keyboards and parts.  The month should start after I have fully tested and made videos of the completed prototypes.

[Elrick]

The month should start after I have fully tested and made videos of the completed prototypes.

Once the final keyboard is made and shown to the world, I think the ORDERS will roll in like a tsunami  .

[U47]

Can't say I've ever consciously tried buckling spring, but this kind of mad sorcery has to be supported. I can't believe this is taking off. Super exciting.

[Ellipse]

Thanks Elrick and U47!

Here are two more prototype photos showing a nice fit of the top and bottom inner assembly, which slide together like the original.