Chinese USB Hall Effect Keyboard - Review and Impressions

[FoxWolf1]

I favor fully-sealed, non-detachable cables personally, but since I already have my board, my opinion is probably not very relevant .

Although, if you ever get around to releasing a full-size with the improvements, I might be tempted to upgrade (and definitely would if there were a TrackPoint, though I do realize that that's highly unlikely)...

[Data]

Why take a switch type known for legendary reliability and introduce a point of failure with a detachable hub?

If you must use a detachable method can you ask the manufacturer to at least make it easy to repair once it fails?

One could make the case that if you're reconnecting the keyboard's USB port to the point of failure, you might be doing it wrong.

This argument against Mini-USB is valid, but it's hardly relevant when we're talking about an application that typically sits on a desk and doesn't get unplugged for years at a time.  The port is rated at about 1,000 cycles and in a keyboard it would only be expected to endure tens of cycles under anything remotely approaching "normal" use.  You'll wear out your switches before you come close to wearing out the USB port.  Let's keep this in perspective.

[mushman]

You'll wear out your switches before you come close to wearing out the USB port.  Let's keep this in perspective.

If the legends of Hall Effect are true the switches should outlast the user. 

I only voice my concern because it's almost 2017 and there are still keyboards out there with faulty detachable USB ports.  I am not an engineer but am I wrong in assuming this should be one of the easiest component to perfect?

[Data]

You'll wear out your switches before you come close to wearing out the USB port.  Let's keep this in perspective.

If the legends of Hall Effect are true the switches should outlast the user. 

I only voice my concern because it's almost 2017 and there are still keyboards out there with faulty detachable USB ports.  I am not an engineer but am I wrong in assuming this should be one of the easiest component to perfect?

I hear you.  A fixed cable with proper tension relief is superior from a pure engineering perspective. 

Consider that a lot of keyboard nuts like to use custom cables and frequently order a cable to match the key set they're using.  That's a bit harder to do in a fixed cable application.  We could compromise here by choosing a newer, better I/O port with more rated wear cycles.  But then cost and compatibility become factors.  I trust the manufacturer has done their homework on this.  I'd welcome a USB-C connector on any new keyboard (rated at 10K mating cycles) but it doesn't appear to be an option this time.

[mushman]

Not to beat a dead horse but:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3beg1t/photos_broken_novatouch/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/5266h6/broken_miniusb_port_on_leopold_fc660c_how_do_i/

The NovaTouch was engineered with a price point of $200 and contained a big chunk of metal screwed down in two places to keep the connector place.  The FC660C goes for around $220.

Not only should the connector be stronger given the asking price but these were engineered by Topre itself!

It's not exactly the number of cycles that bother me as to how it stays in place.  I'm sure the boards above were not even close to the max number of cycles.

[FoxWolf1]

It's not exactly the number of cycles that bother me as to how it stays in place.  I'm sure the boards above were not even close to the max number of cycles.

+1 for this. I seriously doubt it's the actual removal and insertion of the cord that causes the port failure. More likely either the regular flexing caused by repositioning the keyboard (which I do every time I shift position in my chair) or accidental tugs (like when my headphones cord is wrapped around the side of the keyboard, and then I get up without remembering to take my headphones off). Of course, the same things can result in cord failure with a fixed cord, or damage to the attachment point between a fixed cord and the PCB, but at least the portion of the cord within the case gives the keyboard designer an opportunity to implement some stress relief.

[mushman]

I will bow out of this group buy and wait for a fixed cable with tension relief option in the future.

Thanks go to XMIT for making this product available to us; clearly I'm in the minority.

[XMIT]

I mean, maybe I can sell a couple of the fixed-wire prototypes in the Classifieds later.

We did look into USB C connectors and at the moment the cost is prohibitive at scale. This would also require a PCB rework. So perhaps at a later date.

Another fact is that making a quality, durable product takes real iteration. The switches are rated at "100 million" cycles. The manufacturer claims that at this point the magnets start to fail. I doubt it! I really think that they were like, oh, this is twice as durable as Cherry MX which is rated at 50, so let's say 100.

Failure testing is a real thing. I'm for a better design in future models, but to do that, I want to do real failure testing. No sense in having a super durable USB connector if there is some other point of failure. I'm as excited as everyone else for super awesome Hall effect keyboards which is why I started down this route four months ago. Dealing with overseas manufacturing takes patience!

But I digress. I've placed the (hopefully) final order for prototypes. If these look good the next step is the group buy.

Also not too exciting, I've come up with branding! This logo will be on the back of the boards, on the printed manual (which I still need to write...), and on the box.



The font is "Technic" which you can Google around for. The logo will probably evolve over time but this is a start.

[Badwrench]

I mean, maybe I can sell a couple of the fixed-wire prototypes in the Classifieds later.

We did look into USB C connectors and at the moment the cost is prohibitive at scale. This would also require a PCB rework. So perhaps at a later date.

Another fact is that making a quality, durable product takes real iteration. The switches are rated at "100 million" cycles. The manufacturer claims that at this point the magnets start to fail. I doubt it! I really think that they were like, oh, this is twice as durable as Cherry MX which is rated at 50, so let's say 100.

Failure testing is a real thing. I'm for a better design in future models, but to do that, I want to do real failure testing. No sense in having a super durable USB connector if there is some other point of failure. I'm as excited as everyone else for super awesome Hall effect keyboards which is why I started down this route four months ago. Dealing with overseas manufacturing takes patience!

But I digress. I've placed the (hopefully) final order for prototypes. If these look good the next step is the group buy.

Also not too exciting, I've come up with branding! This logo will be on the back of the boards, on the printed manual (which I still need to write...), and on the box.

(Attachment Link)

The font is "Technic" which you can Google around for. The logo will probably evolve over time but this is a start.

Awesome news!  Looking forward to adding one of these to my rotation.   

[Rob27shred]

I mean, maybe I can sell a couple of the fixed-wire prototypes in the Classifieds later.

We did look into USB C connectors and at the moment the cost is prohibitive at scale. This would also require a PCB rework. So perhaps at a later date.

Another fact is that making a quality, durable product takes real iteration. The switches are rated at "100 million" cycles. The manufacturer claims that at this point the magnets start to fail. I doubt it! I really think that they were like, oh, this is twice as durable as Cherry MX which is rated at 50, so let's say 100.

Failure testing is a real thing. I'm for a better design in future models, but to do that, I want to do real failure testing. No sense in having a super durable USB connector if there is some other point of failure. I'm as excited as everyone else for super awesome Hall effect keyboards which is why I started down this route four months ago. Dealing with overseas manufacturing takes patience!

But I digress. I've placed the (hopefully) final order for prototypes. If these look good the next step is the group buy.

Also not too exciting, I've come up with branding! This logo will be on the back of the boards, on the printed manual (which I still need to write...), and on the box.

(Attachment Link)

The font is "Technic" which you can Google around for. The logo will probably evolve over time but this is a start.

I am so in if the GB goes through. These KBs are very unique & I want one! Thanks for all the work you're putting into this @XMIT, I & I'm sure the whole community (well at least those interested in Hall effect) definitely appreciate it!

[XMIT]

Thanks Rob27shred and everyone else!

I think that anyone who loves Cherry MX Red and/or Cherry MX Black (or their various knockoffs), has no reason not to love this board. :-)

I placed the order for what are hopefully the final three prototypes today! Assuming we hit MOQ of 50 each, the first offering will be:

61-key black/acrylic with black keys and 50g springs;
87-key black/ABS with black keys and 50g springs;
87-key bamboo with white keys and 70g spring.

If the prototypes don't have any stop-ship issues I'll use them for photography for the group buy. Stay tuned in the coming 2-3 weeks!

[menuhin]

Sorry, English is not my native language. I read the whole page and still could not figure out what effect is this "Hall Effect"...
 

[XMIT]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect

Basically, bringing a magnet close to a thin conductor will bend the electric field going across that conductor and produce a voltage differential, which you can measure.

What this means is that this keyboard uses magnets and magnetic sensors for the switches. The result is a very reliable, weather proof, bounce free keyboard. This technology was popular in the 1970s for keyboards before it fell out of favor due to cost.

[Data]

87-key black/ABS with black keys and 50g springs;
87-key bamboo with white keys and 70g spring.

Oh damn, you're gonna make me choose, huh?

OK, I see how it is...   

[Sifo]

HYPE

[XMIT]

87-key black/ABS with black keys and 50g springs;
87-key bamboo with white keys and 70g spring.

Oh damn, you're gonna make me choose, huh?

OK, I see how it is...   

Just get both.

[mushman]

XMIT,

A few questions:

After the boards are revised will they sound as "quiet" as stock MX Reds/Blacks?  I'm trying to determine if they can be safely used in an office environment.  [For that matter will O-Rings work on them?]

Where does the actuation occur in the keystroke and can this be programmed?

Will the 70g sound any more or less silent than the 50g?  I only ask because I feel MX Blacks are a tiny bit more silent than MX Reds, not because they help prevent bottoming out I honestly think the stiffer spring helps.

Do you know what the embedded layout will look like on the 60%?

Last, has anyone tried DSA caps on them to see if they will be fine in the stabilizers?

[XMIT]

> After the boards are revised will they sound as "quiet" as stock MX Reds/Blacks?

I hope so. The only way to know is to try one here. That should happen next week. The closest thing I can use to compare is a Costar based MX Brown board that I have here (the sound is the same to MX Red/Black AFAICT).

> Where does the actuation occur in the keystroke and can this be programmed?

"About halfway". I haven't tested this thoroughly. No, it cannot be programmed, though it can be fine tuned for the entire board by manually changing a resistor value.

> Will the 70g sound any more or less silent than the 50g?

I hope they sound the same. The prototype 50g springs were very ping-y due to many turns of very thin wire. The new 50g springs should be much better.

> Do you know what the embedded layout will look like on the 60%?

Yes, see this photo. Again, this is as specified, I won't be able to test it until the new boards arrive. This layout was designed by me with some slight modifications by the manufacturer. It is not programmable at the moment - we're working on that.



> has anyone tried DSA caps on them to see if they will be fine in the stabilizers?

I don't know, but, SA works just fine so I'm going to guess that DSA works just fine as well. Signature Plastics use the same spacing for all of their designs IIRC.

[AMongoose]

"Car race"?

[Data]

vroom vroom

> has anyone tried DSA caps on them to see if they will be fine in the stabilizers?

I don't know, but, SA works just fine so I'm going to guess that DSA works just fine as well. Signature Plastics use the same spacing for all of their designs IIRC.

FYI, DSA is much shallower.  The stems are the same but the underside of the cap is much closer to the plate.  If the switch tops fit the standard Cherry spec then DSA should be fine.  But if not there's a chance for the caps to cause interference, particularly if the switch has a "deep" actuation point.

[FoxWolf1]

"Car race"?

Lights up keys expected to be used in car racing games. Likewise "FPS", "LOL", "COD", etc.

[XMIT]

I just threw a Granite PBT DSA space bar onto my bamboo prototype board and it works great!

Yes, the manufacturers think that people really want backlighting modes for specific games, so "Car Race" is one of those modes.

[mushman]

I think I will end up buying one of these boards.  Which one will depend on you XMIT, as I'm counting on you to give your opinion on which version is more silent (50g ABS vs. 70g Bamboo) once you receive the prototypes.

That picture of the 60% with all those lightning modes for various games really hurts my soul.  It just makes me want to scream "Kids get off my lawn keyboard!"

It is what it is I guess..

[XMIT]

At the moment, the 70g bamboo board is the "quietest" one. But, there has been a substantial change to the sliders (for upstroke damping) and to the springs so I don't know how things will shake out with these next prototypes.

The backlighting is controversial. The LEDs add a tiny amount of cost, and offering a separate version of the boards without the LEDs would involve hitting a separate MOQ, so, it's LEDs for everyone. They are easy enough to turn off. I'll be clear about how to do this in the manual that I write.

[menuhin]

Thanks for the education. I was thinking of stuff like "Monty-Hall Effect".

So basically, it is another non-contact switch design (like capacitive switch) that was not popular / not chosen in the past 30+ years for some reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect

Basically, bringing a magnet close to a thin conductor will bend the electric field going across that conductor and produce a voltage differential, which you can measure.

What this means is that this keyboard uses magnets and magnetic sensors for the switches. The result is a very reliable, weather proof, bounce free keyboard. This technology was popular in the 1970s for keyboards before it fell out of favor due to cost.

[XMIT]

In a sense. The main reason the industry moved away from Hall sensors was cost. But now in 2016, Hall sensors are inexpensive and can be surface-mount soldered, making production even less expensive.

[zslane]

The disappearance of Hall Effect switches was all part of the shift towards making hardware cheap enough to reach the masses. It's why cheap membrane keyboards with thin, pad printed cylindrical keycaps have become the norm.

It is a shame that it takes so much effort (and expense) to bring high-quality keyboards out of the shadows of a nearly forgotten past and onto our desktops again. I'm grateful for XMIT who refuses to let Hall Effect die forever.

[Data]

The disappearance of Hall Effect switches was all part of the shift towards making hardware cheap enough to reach the masses. It's why cheap membrane keyboards with thin, pad printed cylindrical keycaps have become the norm.

It is a shame that it takes so much effort (and expense) to bring high-quality keyboards out of the shadows of a nearly forgotten past and onto our desktops again. I'm grateful for XMIT who refuses to let Hall Effect die forever.

This is the same movement that made keyboards and mice into "disposable tech".  Oh, your legends wore off because they're cheap **** pad printing?  Toss it and buy a new one.  They're frigging $12.  Oh, you popped a cap and now you can't get it back on?  That's OK, they're frigging $12.  Buy a new one.  The keyboards are garbage to begin with so I guess our landfills are the most appropriate places for them. 

But yeah, I guess it worked to get more computers into more homes and offices.  I wonder what keyboarding would be like today if manufacturing hadn't taken that turn for the cheap...

[mushman]

The backlighting is controversial. The LEDs add a tiny amount of cost, and offering a separate version of the boards without the LEDs would involve hitting a separate MOQ, so, it's LEDs for everyone. They are easy enough to turn off. I'll be clear about how to do this in the manual that I write.

I suppose it would be a "zen" thing to accept things as they are.

When I think of Hall Effect I think of a keyboard engineered to survive multiple nuclear winters, keycaps that make Devlin K-series look thin, and is constructed with as much metal as a small Volvo.

I'm going to adjust my perspective.  )

[XMIT]

Yeah sorry, this is a far cry from the Micro Switch keyboards that we all know and love (and that I am, slowly, working to provide replacement controllers for...). The closest you'll get to the old standard are thick PBT key caps and CNC'd aluminum cases.

But, those may come later, so don't be too disappointed yet. Baby steps.

[Niomosy]

Yeah sorry, this is a far cry from the Micro Switch keyboards that we all know and love (and that I am, slowly, working to provide replacement controllers for...). The closest you'll get to the old standard are thick PBT key caps and CNC'd aluminum cases.

But, those may come later, so don't be too disappointed yet. Baby steps.

Old style deep dish doubleshot spherical keycaps would be fantastic.

[XMIT]

When matt3o's key caps become available I'll chat with him about getting some for these boards.

[zslane]

Matt3o's M3 keycaps would probably be really sweet on one of these boards. However, they are strictly dye-sub, not double-shot, at least for the foreseeable future.

I'd love to try SP's new Industrial set on XMIT's 60% board, but my muscle memory would be constantly trying to use CapsLock+IJKL for arrow keys, which would drive me nuts...

[Niomosy]

There's still some good options that can be had with dyesub so long as they've got some decent dye options.  Doubleshot would be preferable but there's added costs in getting that going.

[Data]

*BOMP*

Any sign of those final production samples?

[XMIT]

The production samples shipped a day late and took an extra day (an extra weekend really). I'm on a business trip this week. The samples were supposed to arrive just before the trip to allow things to move forward.

Instead, DHL reported that the samples arrived in Austin just as I was boarding my flight out of Austin. I won't see the samples in person until Thursday.

Hopefully the group buy will begin a week or two after I get the samples. I'm expecting to work out some of the details of the group buy this week. Having those samples would have made things much easier.

The manufacturer already knows I'm pretty frustrated with the situation.

[Niomosy]

Still generally good news despite DHL. 

[XMIT]

The samples did arrive this afternoon in Austin. I'll check them out when I get home later this week.

[Trente]

Because English is not my native language, I might be typing something weird, sorry for that.
I am definitely interested to get one. and I would prefer a 60%, but TKL works fine with me (I just need a slightly larger backpack to carry it around). Here are something that is currently in my mind besides other suggestion I saw in this thread. Bluetooth is something I would prefer, since this would be more convenient for me to use the keyboard with Ipad during classes. But I think this would cause many redesign on the PCB so it is definitely a personal preference.  For the case. I am wondering if we can do a thick acrylic layer sandwiched by two aluminum plate (one for holding the switches and one for the base)? This is totally inspired by the Monarch keyboard I get. But I really think this kind of hybrid provides both durability, and easy production? I am not sure about the production part, but for me, cutting aluminum plates seems easier than making a mold for ABS plastic case? And another advantage of using aluminum top plate would be having different layout like WKL or HHKB style, because we can just shield the place we don't want to have the key? (please bear with me as I know I could be totally wrong)

[saxophone]

They're shipped via DHL? In that case there should be no problem with the shipper marking the package as $20 Worth "free" sample Product to buypass obnoxious import charges.

[mushman]

Any problems with using O-Rings?

[dwolvin]

Waiting on magnets and hell effect sensors for the reviews!

(just made an account for that terrible pun, sorry)
but seriously interested in this keyboard.

[dilbertprogrammer]

Hey XMIT!  I am still loving my (70g, bamboo) prototype board and so are staff members at work.  All feedback has been really positive!
I'm looking forward to hearing how the production samples turned out m'friend!
Thanks again for the effort you've put into this sir!

[Krogenar]

I'd be interested in trying out a modern Hall Effect. The closest I came to getting one was a RAFI keyboard switch:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/RAFI_RS_76_C

But the keyboards were prohibitively expensive. I hope this one comes through -- fullsize keyboard please!
Sometimes more is more. 

[XMIT]

I am finally home and have received the updated samples! I need more time with them but they are a huge improvement. The new sliders are so much quieter than the old ones. I am very pleased and very optimistic about the next orders.

I'll update later with some videos comparing all the case materials and the sliders soon.

If you have one of the prototype keyboards and would like replacement sliders (with upstroke damping) or springs (with no pinging) : please let me know ASAP and I can try to order some replacements. It is about a 2-3 hour job to disassemble the board and replace everything. This is not a free service; you'll need to pay some shipping cost.

[Jubileus]

This keyboard looks interesting. I also want to try them out, and maybe if it is okay with you I can run a mini group buy for this in my local community on top of your group buy. 

[XMIT]

That sounds fine, though, I think anyone can participate on the group buy.

[FoxWolf1]

Hey, have you seen this breakdown of the clicky variant of the two-spring version yet? https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/59t16f/investigating_chinese_switches/

As far as I can tell, the housing on the clicky version is the same-- it looks like it should be possible to create a clicky version of the Hall Effect variant using the same click leaves, which would be pretty awesome.

[XMIT]

Wow, I had not seen that. I don't follow /r/MechanicalKeyboard at all. I should, they're the best target market for these boards.

Yes, those are the same sliders. I'll contact the manufacturer now.

[XMIT]

Alright, manufacturer contacted.

From the looks of it, these should also be compatible with the new, upstroke-damped sliders that we made just for my boards. That's really exciting, thanks for the tip!