Switches not working after soldering.

[TimIsABat]

So, I bought all these parts to make my Poker X awesome, and even switched out the stems and added a plate to make it better. I desoldered and soldered the switches back onto the pcb after putting on the plate, and now some of the switches aren't working. I looked at the traces and they seem to be fine, and even in some joints that look like they might be messed up, it works perfectly. I switched out the switches completely for the switches that aren't working, but those certain keys are not working.

Wondering what it could be...I spent a good amount of money on this board so I don't want to save it!!!!

[The_Beast]

Are you sure you have good solder joints?


Also, I don't really think this is a "making stuff together" type thread

[Photekq]

Take a photo of the PCB

[SpAmRaY]

So are the same keys not working as before you started modding it?

[Photoelectric]

When you were soldering, were you heating the switch pin AND the metal ring framing the hole the pin fits into--at the same time?  Then letting them melt your solder line?

Have you done anything to those switches in terms of accidentally bending the metal leaf part inside?

[Sifo]

Sometimes putting the switches in, one of the pins accidentally bend and don't go through the hole.

[Photoelectric]

Yeah, that part is annoying!  Though I assumed he'd see that he's missing a pin to solder.

[TimIsABat]

Thought it would fit here because it had to do with modding, and all that. I am pretty sure I heated both the metal ring and the pin with the iron when I soldered the switches in. The switches were working before the mod, but are now not working. Most of my other switches work perfectly and look the same as the switches that aren't working. I will post a picture probably later tomorrow, but this is really frustrating atm...I didn't accidentally bend them or anything when I put them into the PCB.

[Photoelectric]

Possibly a bad question, but is the plate so close that it could be touching anything on the PCB that protrudes upward?  When you inspect the PCB, you don't see any lifted traces or anything like that near the non-working switches?  And as Sifo mentioned, you made sure that both pins on all the non-working switches actually did stick through the holes before soldering them in?  (hard to not notice, but hey!)

You could always desolder one of the bad switches and try to neatly solder it back in to see if it works after that.  That could give you a clue.

[The_Beast]

Possibly a bad question, but is the plate so close that it could be touching anything on the PCB that protrudes upward?  When you inspect the PCB, you don't see any lifted traces or anything like that near the non-working switches?  And as Sifo mentioned, you made sure that both pins on all the non-working switches actually did stick through the holes before soldering them in?  (hard to not notice, but hey!)

I always double check with my finger to make sure that all the pins are going through the hole. Slightly painful, but worth it

[TimIsABat]

Possibly a bad question, but is the plate so close that it could be touching anything on the PCB that protrudes upward?  When you inspect the PCB, you don't see any lifted traces or anything like that near the non-working switches?  And as Sifo mentioned, you made sure that both pins on all the non-working switches actually did stick through the holes before soldering them in?  (hard to not notice, but hey!)

You could always desolder one of the bad switches and try to neatly solder it back in to see if it works after that.  That could give you a clue.

Hmmm I didn't do the plate check, but I will see tomorrow. I will probably try switching the housing again to make sure that they are working. If I do see any lifted or damage traces, what should I do?

[Photoelectric]

Lifted is not that bad.  Damaged would mean repairing with wires or such (Id ask in the soldering thread).  But when you were soldering in the switches, I assume you'd notice that you have a pin missing from a hole, as you wouldn't have anything to press your soldering iron against.  I'd just try re soldering one of the "bad" switches. 

[TimIsABat]

Lifted is not that bad.  Damaged would mean repairing with wires or such (Id ask in the soldering thread).  But when you were soldering in the switches, I assume you'd notice that you have a pin missing from a hole, as you wouldn't have anything to press your soldering iron against.  I'd just try re soldering one of the "bad" switches.

I think this is what I am going to do tomorrow. It worked for one of the keys not working because I didn't press the switch in all the way, but the others are all pressed in completely and from what I could see, the were all soldered correctly.

[Charger]

I would try to jump the switch with wire from the back of the pcb and see if you can get the the key to work doing that. if not then it may be the pcb that is messed up or do a continuity check with the switch open and closed just to make sure the switch works

[YoungMichael88]

When you desoldered did the switches come out easy or did you need to force them out? If you needed force you may have pulled out one of the metal cylinders inside one of the holes. Inspect the insides of the holes, it should be metal all the way through.

[Photoelectric]

That should not affect operation (pulling out those copper metal inserts).  Filco PCBs have them, not sure about Poker.

[WhiteFireDragon]

Take a picture of the switches that aren't working. There are several points of failure, and it's too hard to pinpoint what's wrong.

If you ruined a trace, then just use a small wire to bridge together what the trace is suppose to connect.

[YoungMichael88]

That should not affect operation (pulling out those copper metal inserts).  Filco PCBs have them, not sure about Poker.

I wish I would have known that! It happened to me and I ended up trying to install it back in and since it worked I thought "thank goodness" haha. I Thought I resolved a problem.

[Photoelectric]

Those are to channel solder through the hole to the other side of the PCB, for greater support (so each pin is more "solidly" in the PCB).  Filco advertises that in their product ads as a feature.  And it also makes desoldering switches from Filco PCBs a greater annoyance.  I freaked out as well when I pulled a ring out, but turned out it was no big deal.  The metal ring on the outside of the PCB, where you're soldering, is the relevant part to make a metal-to-metal connection with solder, as that's what is connected to the traces.

[TimIsABat]

These are pictures of the switches that aren't working. I just switched out the switch housing and resoldered them. I am never going to use the Radioshack desolderer again...it doesn't suck the solder half the time and it is ruining the PCB...I even let it heat up for more than an hour.

[Photoelectric]

Still not working?  I can't really tell from the photos   The flux makes it look messy and hard to see under.  The bottom photo looks like the middle-left switch is in a poor state, possibly with a damaged trace?  Looks like the plate keeps the pins farther away from the PCB?  This is how far the pins were sticking out on my Filco after soldering in new switches (before thorough cleanup of the PCB)



I used more solder because I was trying to get it all through the PCB into those copper tube inserts.

[TimIsABat]

Still not working?  I can't really tell from the photos   The flux makes it look messy and hard to see under.  The bottom photo looks like the middle-left switch is in a poor state, possibly with a damaged trace?  Looks like the plate keeps the pins farther away from the PCB?  This is how far the pins were sticking out on my Filco after soldering in new switches (before thorough cleanup of the PCB)

Show Image

I used more solder because I was trying to get it all through the PCB into those copper tube inserts.

So the plate may be the problem :/

Ugh. I am trying not to spend that much money than I already have modding this board. I spent so much on this baby and now its unusable.

So the plate my be the problem? ugh....

[Photoelectric]

I don't know that it would be a problem, unless it's touching something on the PCB perhaps and shorting it.  Technically as long as there's a bridge of metal between the pins and those rings on the PCB, the switches should work.  I was just asking because it looked like you didn't insert the switches all the way through into the PCB--unless the plate is very thick or there's stuff on the PCB pushing the plate up.  When inserting the plate-mounted switches through the PCB on my Filco, it was a gradual process, making sure nothing was interfering, no pins were bending, etc.  The plastic bottoms of your switches seem to be floating in those holes, not coming through.

P.S.: Oh I see, you still have the plastic pins for PCB mounting left on.  I thought they should be clipped when used with a plate.  That could be an issue.  Look up plate-mounted switches vs. pcb-mounted switches.

[ekw808]

Kinda looks like you used bare minimal solder on some of the switches, I'd try adding some more to the ones that are a little concave. I try to make them look like Hersey kisses considering the amount of typing force that will be used on the switches. But from your pictures your "Y" and "0" don't look like they are in good shape, when I solder I try to ONLY heat up the pin on the switches and the solder itself; when I DEsolder, I only try to heat up the solder, rarely the pins or the trace, too much heat time on the traces or the pcb makes it more delicate to mod in the future. Test the board without the case, and without anything touching the bottom side of the switches, and see if it works, if everything does, it might be a shorting problem and a simple rubber mat under the pcb would fix it, if NOT, then the traces might be damaged.

[TimIsABat]

I don't know that it would be a problem, unless it's touching something on the PCB perhaps and shorting it.  Technically as long as there's a bridge of metal between the pins and those rings on the PCB, the switches should work.  I was just asking because it looked like you didn't insert the switches all the way through into the PCB--unless the plate is very thick or there's stuff on the PCB pushing the plate up.  When inserting the plate-mounted switches through the PCB on my Filco, it was a gradual process, making sure nothing was interfering, no pins were bending, etc.  The plastic bottoms of your switches seem to be floating in those holes, not coming through.

P.S.: Oh I see, you still have the plastic pins for PCB mounting left on.  I thought they should be clipped when used with a plate.  That could be an issue.  Look up plate-mounted switches vs. pcb-mounted switches.

I asked WhiteFireDragon who I purchased everything from and he said not to clip the plastic on the bottom. It might be a shortening. If there is anyone on here that is good with PCB repairs...let me know because I will pay a bit extra because I did put over a hundred on the mods (which costs more for what I paid to get the board)

[ekw808]

Test the board without the case, and without anything touching the bottom side of the switches, and see if it works, if everything does, it might be a shorting problem and a simple rubber mat under the pcb would fix it, if NOT, then the traces might be damaged.

..................... tldr

[Photoelectric]

Good point, I didn't realize the case on Poker X was made of metal.
----
Looking at Mashby's photo of a Poker PCB, it looks like there are chips sticking up over the PCB, so I understand now why you can't insert the plate all the way.  Unless there are cutouts made for them.



If there are cut-outs, I'd definitely have tried to insert the pins farther into the PCB.  I doubt it's causing your problems though.

And this is weird... But I thought those diodes should be between the plate and the PCB, not on the underside of the PCB.

Another one of Mashby's photos of the same PCB that I thought would be the underside.  I guess Filco is the other way around.

[TimIsABat]

Kinda looks like you used bare minimal solder on some of the switches, I'd try adding some more to the ones that are a little concave. I try to make them look like Hersey kisses considering the amount of typing force that will be used on the switches. But from your pictures your "Y" and "0" don't look like they are in good shape, when I solder I try to ONLY heat up the pin on the switches and the solder itself; when I DEsolder, I only try to heat up the solder, rarely the pins or the trace, too much heat time on the traces or the pcb makes it more delicate to mod in the future. Test the board without the case, and without anything touching the bottom side of the switches, and see if it works, if everything does, it might be a shorting problem and a simple rubber mat under the pcb would fix it, if NOT, then the traces might be damaged.
[/quote

That is exactly what I did...I should've practiced on a Dell AT101 I have lying around, but I am stubborn and what to just get things done. Ugh...that is what I get. I'll try to fix or find someone who could fix this problem in the near future...I really want this board useable.

[PointyFox]

Looks like you used too little solder and maybe didn't push the pins through.  Also, you didn't use acid-core solder, right?

[WhiteFireDragon]

You're either setting the iron temps too hot, or leaving it on there too long. I can tell because the flux around the area is burnt, and some plastic pegs are melted.

In the last pic, it looks like the traces on the "Y" and maybe the "H" keys are severed. Can't tell if any other switches are damaged from the blurry pics. Can you point out exactly which keys are not working?

And like some people mentioned, some pins need more solder. You need enough solder to come out of the hole, but not too much where it starts to bulge up. A few pins, such as the one next to D42 (first pic) still has a gap in the solder joint.

Those are to channel solder through the hole to the other side of the PCB, for greater support (so each pin is more "solidly" in the PCB).  Filco advertises that in their product ads as a feature.  And it also makes desoldering switches from Filco PCBs a greater annoyance.  I freaked out as well when I pulled a ring out, but turned out it was no big deal.  The metal ring on the outside of the PCB, where you're soldering, is the relevant part to make a metal-to-metal connection with solder, as that's what is connected to the traces.

Although you're right that those tiny "cylinders" are not needed, it should be a big deal that you're pulling them out. That means you're not desoldering correctly, and pulling them out is physical damage to the solder pad. The two pads on both sides along with these cylinders are called "plated though-hole", and that cylinder connects both sides of the pads together. If you pull it out, you risk pulling the pad too. I just wanted to correct this so newbs won't think it's perfectly ok to just rip these out.

P.S.: Oh I see, you still have the plastic pins for PCB mounting left on.  I thought they should be clipped when used with a plate.  That could be an issue.  Look up plate-mounted switches vs. pcb-mounted switches.

Regardless if you're using a plate or not, if the PCB has holes for the two plastic pegs on the switches, then you should use PCB-mounted switches. Using a plate AND those two pegs makes a very solid mount. The only time you're forced to clip the two legs off is when you're using a plate and there are no holes in the PCB to use PCB-mounted switches (like Phantom, Filco, CM, etc).

This is why we only ordered PCB-mounted switches in the GH60 GB, even though almost everyone ordered a plate.

[phoenix1234]

These are pictures of the switches that aren't working. I just switched out the switch housing and resoldered them. I am never going to use the Radioshack desolderer again...it doesn't suck the solder half the time and it is ruining the PCB...I even let it heat up for more than an hour.

Likely, you touched the board too long during the de-soldering process with high temperature so it may damage the pcb , especially the copper around the switch hole. We can see some dark areas on the surface of pcb.
I'm not sure if the copper join points were broken during your de-soldering process or not. But it could have no contact with the switch leg.

If the copper join point was broken, I think you can dig a bit to the PCB to find the proper copper line, use copper wire to bridge it back to switch leg. But first, you should de-solder those not working switches, clean the board before continue to find the solution.

[PointyFox]

I don't think it's possible to damage the copper with the heat of a desoldering / soldering iron.

[The_Beast]

I don't think it's possible to damage the copper with the heat of a desoldering / soldering iron.

You can lift traces if you overheat the PCBs.

[fohat.digs]

You can lift traces if you overheat the PCBs.

I am afraid that I have definitely done this, more than once.

[oTurtlez]

You can lift traces if you overheat the PCBs.

I am afraid that I have definitely done this, more than once.

Happened to me the first time I tried soldering. Tried to desolder SMD LED's on an xbox controller. ripped up at least 2 or 3 traces for the LED's and those never worked again.

[Tarzan]

You can lift traces if you overheat the PCBs.

I am afraid that I have definitely done this, more than once.

Same here.  Put the board back together in shame, never touched the innards again.

Bit nervous about doing it to another project.  What causes the traces to lift, iron temp to hot?  I was desoldering at the time, having the ****ens of a time getting the solder cleared off a LED post.

[Photoelectric]

^ If your iron's temperature is too high and/or if you heat the area near the traces for too long.

[TimIsABat]

I think I burnt out those traces. The ones without a burnt out trace are still not working. Planning to send it to someone in the future for the repair. I spent too much money on this to just be paperweight. Typing on my MX reds on my FC660M is just not the same ...

Ugh...

[Photoelectric]

I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy your upgraded toy--hopefully it will get fixed up proper soon   I'm sure it will be all worth it in the end!

[TimIsABat]

I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy your upgraded toy--hopefully it will get fixed up proper soon   I'm sure it will be all worth it in the end!

Me too. I might buy either a IBM Model M or just save the effort of trying to buy one in good shape and just get a Unicomp 101 in the meantime.

[bazemk1979]

I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy your upgraded toy--hopefully it will get fixed up proper soon   I'm sure it will be all worth it in the end!

Me too. I might buy either a IBM Model M or just save the effort of trying to buy one in good shape and just get a Unicomp 101 in the meantime.

How did you end up burning the traces, I would guess was while desoldering, did you set ur station on 300C temp? did you used anytype of sucker or you were trying to dig in with the pencil and wick while working with high temps? its ok dude stuff happens, its how we learn Next time when you desolder try using something that's cheap and efficient at the same time, for example RadioShack desolder iron with pump that cost $15 + another 2-3 spare tips that cost $2 each = $20 and free shipping if u buy them trough RadioShack ebay store. I would say 95% efficient  desolder results + its safe, the other 5% you can remove with wick in matter of minutes, and don't forget 300C max 350C.

BTW I'm planning to put my bolt modded IBM for sale its customized and comes with extra set of black blank caps.

[TimIsABat]

I'm sorry you couldn't enjoy your upgraded toy--hopefully it will get fixed up proper soon   I'm sure it will be all worth it in the end!

Me too. I might buy either a IBM Model M or just save the effort of trying to buy one in good shape and just get a Unicomp 101 in the meantime.

How did you end up burning the traces, I would guess was while desoldering, did you set ur station on 300C temp? did you used anytype of sucker or you were trying to dig in with the pencil and wick while working with high temps? its ok dude stuff happens, its how we learn Next time when you desolder try using something that's cheap and efficient at the same time, for example RadioShack desolder iron with pump that cost $15 + another 2-3 spare tips that cost $2 each = $20 and free shipping if u buy them trough RadioShack ebay store. I would say 95% efficient  desolder results + its safe, the other 5% you can remove with wick in matter of minutes, and don't forget 300C max 350C.

BTW I'm planning to put my bolt modded IBM for sale its customized and comes with extra set of black blank caps.

I used the desoldering iron. It burned the traces when I had solder that was being stubborn and wouldn't get sucked in.

[Photoelectric]

In those cases it's best to not try to get any more out with the bulb.  Add more solder and use a soldering braid (but be careful, soldering braids get very hot and can melt the coating off the traces too if held over them for too long).  Or what I do now, after most of the solder has been removed, is heat up resisting pins and gently pull on the switch.  It's a gradual process.  Heat each of the two pins while gently pulling out the switch. I got half of the switches out like that from my second Filco PCB.  No damage, and it was tedious, but worked great.  I used a soldering braid after the radioshack iron on my first PCB, and it was a LOT more work that way for very little return, because the solder would be hiding deep inside those copper cyllinders.

[phoenix1234]

I used the desoldering iron. It burned the traces when I had solder that was being stubborn and wouldn't get sucked in.

How long did you keep the tip on the solder point?
It should not be more than 3 seconds at 300 degree of Celsius if the material of the join point is normal (Zn:Pb 60:40).

In case the copper track was broken you can take a look at this link - a tutorial to fix the track :
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=185066&mpage=1

[WhiteFireDragon]

I used the desoldering iron. It burned the traces when I had solder that was being stubborn and wouldn't get sucked in.

So this is how you damaged those traces. If you can't get all the solder sucked up in 1 shot, then you have to add solder back into the hole, then try again. If you only partially sucked up the solder, then you won't be able to effectively melt the remaining solder at the very bottom of the hole.

It's not hard to damage traces, but at the same time, it's easily avoidable. Pressure, high heat, and leaving iron tips on too long are PCB killers.

[Tarzan]

I used the desoldering iron. It burned the traces when I had solder that was being stubborn and wouldn't get sucked in.

So this is how you damaged those traces. If you can't get all the solder sucked up in 1 shot, then you have to add solder back into the hole, then try again. If you only partially sucked up the solder, then you won't be able to effectively melt the remaining solder at the very bottom of the hole.

It's not hard to damage traces, but at the same time, it's easily avoidable. Pressure, high heat, and leaving iron tips on too long are PCB killers.

This is the soldering iron I used to use;


...needless to say, I'm now learning a whole new set of soldering skills.   

[WhiteFireDragon]

This is the soldering iron I used to use;
(Attachment Link)

Can't tell if you're serious or not. Was that iron passed down 10 generations?

[Tarzan]

This is the soldering iron I used to use;
(Attachment Link)

Can't tell if you're serious or not. Was that iron passed down 10 generations?

That's actually the same model of soldering iron I learned to solder with - I snagged the picture from eBay as most of my tools are in storage.  My dad had a big old Weller that buzzed like crazy, but we usually got the straight iron to practice with.  Worked great on soldering lamp cords, battery cables on the truck, and similar stuff.  Very stable heat, probably because it was so massive.

Then I got into soldering copper plumbing, but that was with a butane torch.  Never touched a circuit board until I joined this forum.  Now I've got LEDs on the way, solder from a GB, and ErgoDox PCBs, not to mention all the boards with vintage switches I should harvest. 

I'm always serious.  Okay, most of the time.

[Xenderwind]

That honestly looks like  a metal rolling pin on the end of a gardening shovel's handle.  Sorry for the thread derailment, hope you can fix your keyboard!