[GB] SA Symbiosis R2 - Finished

[TheEerieCold]

For the most part I feel the same way however I didn't like the "old" legends used on my Space Cadet and actively looked for a modern function row and #3 key to replace them with. I do think having the renders using the old style does cause confusion though, really should have stayed with the "old" legends. These are minor complaints overall, I think it turned out quite well.

[Audiobs]

Here's another picture in better lighting. I edited it in lightroom to look as close as possible to what I actually see in person.

(Attachment Link)

Looks amazing. Now I’m sad I didn’t get the blue modifiers as they are nicer than the renders even conveyed. Can’t wait to get my alphas and grey choices

You and me both.

[FRANCO]

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

How are these compared to the 7bit grey numpad? From the few pictures I saw, they're basically identical

[menuhin]

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

How are these compared to the 7bit grey numpad? From the few pictures I saw, they're basically identical

I thought about this as well.
I think that was because the Space Cadet Keyboard does not have a numpad.


He could have made the legend fonts totally consistent.
e.g. this one, the numeral row '3' on this German layout set is again just the SP default font.


However, he did pay some attention to the numpad's '3'.
As you can see SA "Nuclear Data" and SA "Pulse" have the SP default '3' font, but Rounds have the Space Cadet '3'.

More

[FRANCO]

I thought about this as well.
I think that was because the Space Cadet Keyboard does not have a numpad.

He could have made the legend fonts totally consistent.
e.g. this one, the numeral row '3' on this German layout set is again just the SP default font.

Ahh nice...yea, I may try to snag a Symbiosis numpad if I can find one (or two)

[tchalikias]

Sigh... sadly I missed out on this set, and second hand prices are already - as expected - through the roof... I hate flippers.

[menuhin]

Sigh... sadly I missed out on this set, and second hand prices are already - as expected - through the roof... I hate flippers.

I hate flippers big time.
Real estate traders are the biggest flippers collaborating with the developers: if it wasn't their flipping, people may not have to work 20+ years off their mortgages in some cities in the world.

I hope the custom keyboard market is more reasonable... but see the Cherry 5000, OTD, and now even the TGR...

[DukeEsquire]

Keycaps are pretty different from keyboards though.

SA Symbiosis had an unlimited GB and then had a "pre-sale" after that for slightly increased prices. Can't get much easier than that.

[montydrei]

I sadly could not afford to get a full set of Symbiosis 2.0, but I was able to get just the alphas and mix it with my Godspeed modifiers:

[gbchk]

I'll most likely be selling my alphas, mods, spacebars and possibly other kits in a few months if anyone wants to wait. Not interested in flipping, will charge whatever I paid.

[svenge]

I sadly could not afford to get a full set of Symbiosis 2.0, but I was able to get just the alphas and mix it with my Godspeed modifiers:

That looks DOPE - never seen those before, the godspeed and panic buttons are a particularly nice complement to the symbiosis set.  I think you made out pretty good there.

PS: I'm still willing to trade or buy for unused R1 choices

[nightdriver]

did anybody else get what seems to be an R2 "esc" key instead of their delete key, or did i just get "lucky" somehow?  this R2 "esc" key isn't even supposed to exist, is it?

turned what was otherwise an exciting arrival into an "oh **** how did i lose a keycap i was so careful?" but i'm sure i didn't lose it and this key seems like its "replacement".

guess i'll contact kono support.  set looks awesome otherwise and i'm typing on it right now, but for this price and this amount of waiting time, i deserve to have it flawless.

[Ensaum]

I'll most likely be selling my alphas, mods, spacebars and possibly other kits in a few months if anyone wants to wait. Not interested in flipping, will charge whatever I paid.

If you have arrows and/or grey choices then I'd be interested in those.

[Ensaum]

did anybody else get what seems to be an R2 "esc" key instead of their delete key, or did i just get "lucky" somehow?  this R2 "esc" key isn't even supposed to exist, is it?

turned what was otherwise an exciting arrival into an "oh **** how did i lose a keycap i was so careful?" but i'm sure i didn't lose it and this key seems like its "replacement".

guess i'll contact kono support.  set looks awesome otherwise and i'm typing on it right now, but for this price and this amount of waiting time, i deserve to have iet flawless.

R2 Escape was in the 40s kit. If you ordered a 40s kit then I'd check in there for your R1 Escape.

[nightdriver]

did anybody else get what seems to be an R2 "esc" key instead of their delete key, or did i just get "lucky" somehow?  this R2 "esc" key isn't even supposed to exist, is it?

turned what was otherwise an exciting arrival into an "oh **** how did i lose a keycap i was so careful?" but i'm sure i didn't lose it and this key seems like its "replacement".

guess i'll contact kono support.  set looks awesome otherwise and i'm typing on it right now, but for this price and this amount of waiting time, i deserve to have iet flawless.

R2 Escape was in the 40s kit. If you ordered a 40s kit then I'd check in there for your R1 Escape.

i did not order a 40s kit.  but at least that explains how the key exists.  i guess somebody who ordered the 40s kit probably got my delete key.  anyway thanks for the response, at least i'm less confused about how this happened.  i was like

[dr_unconscionable]

Got my set and think it looks fantastic, and now regretting not getting the standard mods kit hopefully I can track one down now somehow, though I'm kind of doubting someone would sell just the mods...

[tonny950111]

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.

For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"

More

Show Image

1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard

Show Image

Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.

2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.

zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:

Show Image

The above was just a render. And in reality:

More

Show Image

The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":

Show Image

During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.

[menuhin]

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.

For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"

More

Show Image

1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard

Show Image

Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.

2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.

zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:

Show Image

The above was just a render. And in reality:

More

Show Image

The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":

Show Image

During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.

What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.

It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.

More

[hhkbp2]

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.

For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"

More

Show Image

1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard

Show Image

Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.

2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.

zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:

Show Image

The above was just a render. And in reality:

More

Show Image

The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":

Show Image

During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.

What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.

It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.

More

Show Image

Fair enough. As I said, we have enough discussion about 7bit's products during IC/GB. I don't want to orally wrestle with anyone who prefers 7bit's products. But, it feels annoying if someone pours his preference talks on 7bit's products in this Symbiosis Group Buy thread again and again.

I didn't want to replicate 7bit's creation from the very beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC. I didn't want to replace 7bit to provide his products. This Symbiosis R2 GB had a clear idea/goal to reuse all the existing SP publicly accessible toolings of number row, NorDE legends, etc. considering the cost of making new legends, and to maintain max compatibility among legends of all kits/keys. It's just a trade-off like many things in computer industry. And at the end outcome products of this GB archived this goal.

We have gone through details when someone said "only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly" previously during IC. 7bit's creation had many issues and inconsistencies too, e.g. you noticed some of these issues/inconsistencies in your previous posts. We could talk all day about 7bit this and Symbiosis that. But in the end of the day, any design inspired by a vintage keyboard/keyset is just a simulation of the original, have different design goals/limitations on their own. Like I said previously as response to the "only 7bit doing correctly" guy, it's not true that only one way to make a keyset. There is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences.

You seemed to know a lot of stuff on SP's legends/procedures & what happened in Symbiosis GB. But many things you said are wrong. For example,

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Making keysets via SP is definitely different from building roads. In a keyset design/GB, many things are copyrighted to only a few designers while roads are usually public, as you implied in your words - they're shared in counties. Your analogy is only true when anyone could freely use 7bit's design and toolings - which is not true unfortunately. I have no idea why you use this analogy.

I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

We won't get 7bit's creation. We don't plan to produce that. Symbiosis R2 produced space-cadet inspired legends, big enough to fit the publicly accessible SP number row, NorDE legends. The legends are not as big as what's in 7bit's products, but they don't have to be. It's not a sloppy at all.
Again, I have no idea why you said I did't have enough email exchanges with SP. It looks stupid when you pretended you knew a lot but actually you knew so little.

[fireworm]

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.

For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"

More

Show Image

1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard

Show Image

Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.

2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.

zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:

Show Image

The above was just a render. And in reality:

More

Show Image

The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":

Show Image

During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.

What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.

It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.

More

Show Image

Fair enough. As I said, we have enough discussion about 7bit's products during IC/GB. I don't want to orally wrestle with anyone who prefers 7bit's products. But, it feels annoying if someone pours his preference talks on 7bit's products in this Symbiosis Group Buy thread again and again.

I didn't want to replicate 7bit's creation from the very beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC. I didn't want to replace 7bit to provide his products. This Symbiosis R2 GB had a clear idea/goal to reuse all the existing SP publicly accessible toolings of number row, NorDE legends, etc. considering the cost of making new legends, and to maintain max compatibility among legends of all kits/keys. It's just a trade-off like many things in computer industry. And at the end outcome products of this GB archived this goal.

We have gone through details when someone said "only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly" previously during IC. 7bit's creation had many issues and inconsistencies too, e.g. you noticed some of these issues/inconsistencies in your previous posts. We could talk all day about 7bit this and Symbiosis that. But in the end of the day, any design inspired by a vintage keyboard/keyset is just a simulation of the original, have different design goals/limitations on their own. Like I said previously as response to the "only 7bit doing correctly" guy, it's not true that only one way to make a keyset. There is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences.

You seemed to know a lot of stuff on SP's legends/procedures & what happened in Symbiosis GB. But many things you said are wrong. For example,

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Making keysets via SP is definitely different from building roads. In a keyset design/GB, many things are copyrighted to only a few designers while roads are usually public, as you implied in your words - they're shared in counties. Your analogy is only true when anyone could freely use 7bit's design and toolings - which is not true unfortunately. I have no idea why you use this analogy.

I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

We won't get 7bit's creation. We don't plan to produce that. Symbiosis R2 produced space-cadet inspired legends, big enough to fit the publicly accessible SP number row, NorDE legends. The legends are not as big as what's in 7bit's products, but they don't have to be. It's not a sloppy at all.
Again, I have no idea why you said I did't have enough email exchanges with SP. It looks stupid when you pretended you knew a lot but actually you knew so little.

Personally, I like them.

I think it's fine to compare them to 7bit, like comparing to GMK Space Cadet, or even XDA Canvas (because people love comparing things...no matter how different). Are they different? Yep, as designed. Do people prefer one over the other? Yep.

Are we better off with unique takes based on the same inspiration, instead of everyone copying each other? Most likely.  ;)

[Fabi]

Anyone already got their Mykeyboard.eu order?

[EightDiagram]

Last I checked this was the thread for Symbiosis R2...now feels like IC all over again. 

Most seem quite satisfied with the results, including myself (kudos hhkbp).  Those who wish to compare and debate the past and present variations of the set should probably create a separate thread for that. Now then, who's got a set of Blue Choices they'd like to part with?   

[hhkbp2]

Comparison is fine and welcome as long as anyone has the interest and free time to do it. It just doesn't feel right if he/she does the comparison with bias, by listing only so-called Cons of this design/iteration and so-called Pros of that. You know, everything has Pros & Cons. It's not a fair comparison if you only mention one's Cons and emphasize the other's Pros. And this fellow went even further to say something that is definitely wrong and something that implies I and SP didn't get our jobs done properly:

I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs,

Even from the beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC, I heard people said they wanted something in 7bit's Rounds. But Symbiosis R2 didn't plan to replicate 7bit or replace him to provide his products. I could understand that someone who expects 7bit's clone(or close replica) would be disappointed, only because they think a big font size would be superior, they think the colors of Symbiosis R2 are too much, or they don't like the R2 novelties, etc.. These are preferences and they make sense. But we did what we planned to do for Symbiosis R2. If you paid attention to this GB, you would know we had several rounds of legends samples and many posts on legends, their sizes, samples pictures etc. It's clear that the current output is not a fault due to sloppy or lack of communication.

I'm open to comment and even criticism, for essential future runs/designs. But if anyone has the 7bit's products and only wants to show off what he/she has is superior, or he/she prefers 7bit's products and wants to show off your superior knowledge/taste, please start a new thread. Don't pour all your preferences here repeatedly and don't pollute this thread.

[menuhin]

More

Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.

Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.

Show Image

When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.

For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"

More

Show Image

1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard

Show Image

Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.

2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.

zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:

Show Image

The above was just a render. And in reality:

More

Show Image

The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":

Show Image

During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.

What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.

It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.

More

Show Image

Fair enough. As I said, we have enough discussion about 7bit's products during IC/GB. I don't want to orally wrestle with anyone who prefers 7bit's products. But, it feels annoying if someone pours his preference talks on 7bit's products in this Symbiosis Group Buy thread again and again.

I didn't want to replicate 7bit's creation from the very beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC. I didn't want to replace 7bit to provide his products. This Symbiosis R2 GB had a clear idea/goal to reuse all the existing SP publicly accessible toolings of number row, NorDE legends, etc. considering the cost of making new legends, and to maintain max compatibility among legends of all kits/keys. It's just a trade-off like many things in computer industry. And at the end outcome products of this GB archived this goal.

We have gone through details when someone said "only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly" previously during IC. 7bit's creation had many issues and inconsistencies too, e.g. you noticed some of these issues/inconsistencies in your previous posts. We could talk all day about 7bit this and Symbiosis that. But in the end of the day, any design inspired by a vintage keyboard/keyset is just a simulation of the original, have different design goals/limitations on their own. Like I said previously as response to the "only 7bit doing correctly" guy, it's not true that only one way to make a keyset. There is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences.

You seemed to know a lot of stuff on SP's legends/procedures & what happened in Symbiosis GB. But many things you said are wrong. For example,

I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.

Making keysets via SP is definitely different from building roads. In a keyset design/GB, many things are copyrighted to only a few designers while roads are usually public, as you implied in your words - they're shared in counties. Your analogy is only true when anyone could freely use 7bit's design and toolings - which is not true unfortunately. I have no idea why you use this analogy.

I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.

We won't get 7bit's creation. We don't plan to produce that. Symbiosis R2 produced space-cadet inspired legends, big enough to fit the publicly accessible SP number row, NorDE legends. The legends are not as big as what's in 7bit's products, but they don't have to be. It's not a sloppy at all.
Again, I have no idea why you said I did't have enough email exchanges with SP. It looks stupid when you pretended you knew a lot but actually you knew so little.

It is great the OP has stopped being dormant in this thread.

I don't expect you to make a replica of 7bit's creation or the Space Cadet design, and I didn't say anything like only 7bit can make the legends right, and I did also point out his inconsistency in legends.
You have been professional in your communication in IC and in GB, and you might misunderstand that the word "sloppy" was to imply you, no it shouldn't. At the most, I could only say those who QC this Run is careless.
Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.



Of course no analogy is perfect (it was more trying to relate to how some users tried to defend Kailh's keycap cracking erroneous switch stem dimension, more about their attitude - they totally non-critical attitude will not help quality of projects progress the way they should).
And I am not as knowledgeable as those who design and ran GBs like OP, in terms of how tedious the corresponding process is between instructing the manufacturer and sample checking. I do understand that SP might hold the design files (for legends) of 7bit of his Rounds keycaps, but not allowing other makers to use them; however, I also have already assumed someone who dares to take the daunting task of running a GB of Space Cadet design keycap be able to create all the necessary legend files, even for every keycap if needed, in order to create what the renders have promised.
This is what I put totally trust into, and felt disappointed.

The GB have to be thankful that OP did put in much effort, otherwise, they will be getting the Signature Plastic "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" already.

My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.

[hhkbp2]

It is great the OP has stopped being dormant in this thread.

Since now it's shipping phase, there is very little I could do.

I respect your freedom of speech, but many of your opions and words were pretty off. I don't think it would make much sense to do oral wrestle with you. I have my life to live. I don't have to debate my GB with you all day. But you repeated posts had hijacked this thread so I think it's time to clear the thread a bit to make sure those customers who have related questions/comments could be heard.

Does this make sense to you?

Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.

...

My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.

As we all know, renders are for illustration purposes. They don't match 100% to the product. Some vendor usually puts statements on the sale webpage, like

Code: [Select]

IMAGE DISCLAIMER
Images are of 3D renders and are for illustration purposes only. The final product may differ slightly.
Some venders don't do that. But we all know products will not be 100% loyal to renders.

Symbiosis R2 used the font Gotham Rounded in both 2D and 3D renders. The shape of legend 3 in Gotham Rounded is slightly different from SP's real product. It's commonly used in keyset rendering. You could see this happened in many other keyset GBs. It's not a production quality issue. If that become a problem according to your standard, you should raise awareness and post in many other GB pages too.

BTW, there are small differences between 2D and 3D renders too. And the sizes of legends in 3D render are bigger than what's in 2D renders because they were done by different people in different time. Some legends were revised slightly. Some mistake in 3D renders too. You should notice these before buying if you're so picky as now for these details. We could talk all day about these details, but it won't help much now in the shipping phase.

You have been professional in your communication in IC and in GB, and you might misunderstand that the word "sloppy" was to imply you, no it shouldn't. At the most, I could only say those who QC this Run is careless.

I don't know what to say. Because I'm the designer and the one who did the QC, as which happens typically in this customized keyset business. I guess you already know that, so I'm confused what you tried to express.

however, I also have already assumed someone who dares to take the daunting task of running a GB of Space Cadet design keycap be able to create all the necessary legend files, even for every keycap if needed, in order to create what the renders have promised.
This is what I put totally trust into, and felt disappointed.

Symbiosis R2 would reuse SP's publicly accessible legends of number row, NorDE layout, Mod etc. I planned to do so and I created all necessary files for this goal. Not all these details in the GB page, but I didn't intensionally hide these information to cheat people to buy. Not many people ask this during the IC/GB, and I was frankly open to response that. Besides I post pictures for legends samples many times along these months. All these informations are public all along. We did what we planned to do. I don't think it's a quality issue.

I'm sorry Symbiosis R2 didn't fullfill your assumption. Everything is settled at this point. If you want to get rip of what you bought, I suggest a refund from your vendor, or selling in mechmarket. Pretty sure you could get your money back anyway.

Of course no analogy is perfect (it was more trying to relate to how some users tried to defend Kailh's keycap cracking erroneous switch stem dimension, more about their attitude - they totally non-critical attitude will not help quality of projects progress the way they should).

IMO, your analogy was bad. Even worse with Kailh's examples. You should think twice before using them. Kailh planned to make switches that have solid industry standards but the output products failed the standards so that caused the cracking. That's a quality issue. But we are talking legend preference for a keyset here.

I'm open with comments, suggestions and criticism, as I did during IC/GB in the past. But many of your words are wrong, even bizzard to some degree. And I smell the sense of superiority as usual from guys who has/prefers 7bit's productions. For example,

I also have already assumed someone who dares to take the daunting task of running a GB of Space Cadet design keycap be able to create all the necessary legend files, even for every keycap if needed

I did dare to create a space-cadet inspired keyset, and created the necessary files as I planned. It's not daunting at all - any other designer could create keysets inspired by space-cadet, at whatever profile, from whatever manufacturer or in whatever style/legend/size they like. I'm sorry if you don't like Symbiosis R2. You made you point already. Please stop trolling with your preference on 7bit this and 7bit that along this thread.

It doesn't make much sense to start a jihad among you, me and other customers here, fighting for the superiority of 7bit's products or Symbiosis R2. The superiority, it doesn't exist. It's just preference. For pilgrims, there are too many roads lead to the shrine.

[hhkbp2]

Anyone already got their Mykeyboard.eu order?

+1 would like to know that too.

Zfrontier updated that the shipment was about to arrive at their warehouse. Their orders should be shipped soon.

[mimalik]

Have been enjoying this beauty for over a week now. Thx a ton for this drop and all the efforts hhkbp2, so far one of my most fav SA set. I love that you had 1.25 CapsLock key in base. No one designs it anymore, this is a functional key for me and my kb as I have switched the cntrl/caps functions. Looking forward to your next project.

[menuhin]

......

Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.

...

My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.

As we all know, renders are for illustration purposes. They don't match 100% to the product. Some vendor usually puts statements on the sale webpage, like

Code: [Select]

IMAGE DISCLAIMER
Images are of 3D renders and are for illustration purposes only. The final product may differ slightly.
Some venders don't do that. But we all know products will not be 100% loyal to renders.

Symbiosis R2 used the font Gotham Rounded in both 2D and 3D renders. The shape of legend 3 in Gotham Rounded is slightly different from SP's real product. It's commonly used in keyset rendering. You could see this happened in many other keyset GBs. It's not a production quality issue. If that become a problem according to your standard, you should raise awareness and post in many other GB pages too.

BTW, there are small differences between 2D and 3D renders too. And the sizes of legends in 3D render are bigger than what's in 2D renders because they were done by different people in different time. Some legends were revised slightly. Some mistake in 3D renders too. You should notice these before buying if you're so picky as now for these details. We could talk all day about these details, but it won't help much now in the shipping phase.

......

Now it is clear, what I saw as a quality issue - is now that Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes, and that is a "as we all know" standard practice.
And OP stayed with SP's publicly accessible legends of number row as a design decision, despite being quite different font-wise from the render Gotham Rounded (which matches better with the original Space Cadet keyboard font design).

I agree that products are not 100% loyal to renders, and this is where lots of people get disappointed nowadays when they get products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders. Quite a few people raised criticisms to new key cap manufacturers' fonts as horrendous and a pain to look at in GB and DT (in r/MK people just all say great and yes): perhaps that era of attention to details is already bygone. I am a bit vocal here as the font design that I expected was not delivered in the real product.

And I have to thank OP again that as I raised the Signature Plastic default font 'issue' of "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" in a batch of sample, OP did take the effort to make them look nicer so those "l" changed to "1". Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.

[cijanzen]

......

Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.

...

My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.

As we all know, renders are for illustration purposes. They don't match 100% to the product. Some vendor usually puts statements on the sale webpage, like

Code: [Select]

IMAGE DISCLAIMER
Images are of 3D renders and are for illustration purposes only. The final product may differ slightly.
Some venders don't do that. But we all know products will not be 100% loyal to renders.

Symbiosis R2 used the font Gotham Rounded in both 2D and 3D renders. The shape of legend 3 in Gotham Rounded is slightly different from SP's real product. It's commonly used in keyset rendering. You could see this happened in many other keyset GBs. It's not a production quality issue. If that become a problem according to your standard, you should raise awareness and post in many other GB pages too.

BTW, there are small differences between 2D and 3D renders too. And the sizes of legends in 3D render are bigger than what's in 2D renders because they were done by different people in different time. Some legends were revised slightly. Some mistake in 3D renders too. You should notice these before buying if you're so picky as now for these details. We could talk all day about these details, but it won't help much now in the shipping phase.

......

Now it is clear, what I saw as a quality issue - is now that Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes, and that is a "as we all know" standard practice.
And OP stayed with SP's publicly accessible legends of number row as a design decision, despite being quite different font-wise from the render Gotham Rounded (which matches better with the original Space Cadet keyboard font design).

I agree that products are not 100% loyal to renders, and this is where lots of people get disappointed nowadays when they get products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders. Quite a few people raised criticisms to new key cap manufacturers' fonts as horrendous and a pain to look at in GB and DT (in r/MK people just all say great and yes): perhaps that era of attention to details is already bygone. I am a bit vocal here as the font design that I expected was not delivered in the real product.

And I have to thank OP again that as I raised the Signature Plastic default font 'issue' of "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" in a batch of sample, OP did take the effort to make them look nicer so those "l" changed to "1". Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.

As a general reference, if Gotham Rounded is used in the renders you can assume it will use SPs Gorton Modified. Their typeface isn’t available so designers have to resort to using something similar. It’s unfortunate but if you know that will be the case then there won’t be any disappointment!

[DukeEsquire]

For what it's worth, if anyone is disappointed by the GB, they can always flip it for a nice profit.

Let's move on and get back to talking about how lovely the set is.

I, for one, love this keycap set.

[hhkbp2]

Now it is clear, what I saw as a quality issue - is now that Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes, and that is a "as we all know" standard practice.
And OP stayed with SP's publicly accessible legends of number row as a design decision, despite being quite different font-wise from the render Gotham Rounded (which matches better with the original Space Cadet keyboard font design).

I agree that products are not 100% loyal to renders, and this is where lots of people get disappointed nowadays when they get products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders. Quite a few people raised criticisms to new key cap manufacturers' fonts as horrendous and a pain to look at in GB and DT (in r/MK people just all say great and yes): perhaps that era of attention to details is already bygone. I am a bit vocal here as the font design that I expected was not delivered in the real product.

And I have to thank OP again that as I raised the Signature Plastic default font 'issue' of "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" in a batch of sample, OP did take the effort to make them look nicer so those "l" changed to "1". Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.

I have explained how and why there were differences between renders & products. And tell you that Gotham Rounded is commonly used for renders. But you still misunderstood it as designers & renderers carry out things with degraded intension like

Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes.

Again, your analogy is bad and some point are off. I don't know why you like to use analogy so much, but it doesn't help. During IC/GB of Symbiosis R2, I never advertised products only as renders like "products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders", instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice

Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.

I don't want to continue this talking with you, man. It doesn't make much sense. You have made your points. Thanks for your concerns and comments.

[menuhin]

...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...

I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?

I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.

Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.

[DukeEsquire]

...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...

I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?

I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.

Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.

Jesus this guy.

[yesiamthatman]

...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...

I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?

I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.

Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.

Jesus this guy.

Seriously.

Thanks for all the work on this GB bringing it across the line!  I'm super happy with the result and to have an iconic keycap set on one of my favorite boards!

[Fredington]

...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...

I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?

I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.

Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.

Why are you still talking?

[yap68]

...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...

I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?

I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.

Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.

Why are you still talking?

+1

[menuhin]

More

...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.

Reference.

SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update. It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...

I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?

I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.

Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.

Why are you still talking?

My answer to your question is, to express my gratitude towards OP.

[FearsomeCubedWarrior]

~

[yap68]

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This is the way to go: Less talking, more pictures!

They do look excellent on this keyboard.

[cijanzen]

Not up to my usual standards for a photo but I’m really happy with how this set turned out! If anyone is interested I’ll be selling my blue spacekeys as I didn’t buy any modifiers. Just came for the legends and choices! Nice job with this set @hhkbp2

[FearsomeCubedWarrior]

~

[Nigolski]

Are these SA oblivion mods?

yes

[bardomudo]

Mine's finally here. Couldn't be happier. Zero complaints.

Congrats on running the GB, hhkbp2, couldn't be more satisfied on how things went down.

[jimboytacos]

What was the original pricing for these kits in USD? Trying to find some on r/mm but everyone's charging an arm and two legs, us a kidney. Just want to see the before and after price.
Prices on KONO aren't shown.

[horchata771]

What was the original pricing for these kits in USD? Trying to find some on r/mm but everyone's charging an arm and two legs, us a kidney. Just want to see the before and after price.
Prices on KONO aren't shown.

I believe zfroniter has a list of the prices. Granted you have to go looking for it on their complete products catalogue page. Also the prices are slightly different. If you look at their "Signature Plastics" page, the links are now gone. However, prices are very much comparable (i.e. within a few USD of the North American buy)

[AaronR]

Pricing for the GB is listed on this site

https://matrixzj.github.io/docs/sa-keycaps/Symbiosis-R2/

[yap68]

Mine's finally here. Couldn't be happier. Zero complaints.

Congrats on running the GB, hhkbp2, couldn't be more satisfied on how things went down.

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Show Image

These are very nice photos! What keyboard is this? Looks really good.

[bardomudo]

Mine's finally here. Couldn't be happier. Zero complaints.

Congrats on running the GB, hhkbp2, couldn't be more satisfied on how things went down.

Show Image

Show Image

These are very nice photos! What keyboard is this? Looks really good.

Thanks, I'm really pleased with it. It's the RAMA KOYU Moon.

[andtar2]

Pricing for the GB is listed on this site

https://matrixzj.github.io/docs/sa-keycaps/Symbiosis-R2/

Kono had also around 10-30% markup on pre-order kits after the GB ended.

[lanyusea]

received mine from ZF today.

a look of R2:



and R1:



and the comparison (guess which is R2?):