lighter touch clicky keyboard?

[djones]

Hello all, I just recently found this forum and am glad to find out I'm not the only one that cares keyboards. Question: what's a good clicky keyboard with a lighter touch?

I ask because after reading that the IBM model M was the "best keyboard ever made" on numerous websites, I ordered a customizer 104 keyboard from unicomp, and I found the keys too hard-- it especially strains my pinkies when shifting. Do the keys get lighter once the keyboard is "broken in"?

I've tried the $300 Kinesis Ergo keyboard, but found the vertical keyboard layout way too weird and not all that comfortable, and the Chery keyswitch keys didn't offer any resistance at all.

I've got my eyes on the Matias Tactile Pro 2 since it uses the Alps keyswitches which I hear are a bit lighter than the model M's... any opinions? how do Alps keyswitches compare to buckling springs in terms of resistance?

Any other recommendations? My primary concern is a light, crisp keyswitch that offer non-linear resistance like the model M. Money is no object (I'm 23 right now, and I figure I'll be typing for 40 more years, so I better take care of my hands.) Noise is of no concern (louder the better I say!)

[iMav]

Blue cherry keyswitches might be for you.  (xsphat will be along shortly to sing the praises of the cherry browns)  

Currently, that means either a Das Keyboard 2 or a Scorpius M10.  Based on the quality issues some have found with the M10, the Das may actually be worth the extra money.

[IBI]

Do you know what type of cherries the kinesis ergo had?

[xsphat]

Blue cherry keyswitches might be for you.  (xsphat will be along shortly to sing the praises of the cherry browns)  

Ah, but the brown Cherrys don't click, so I think the blue Cherrys are more up this member's alley.

[djones]

Do you know what type of cherries the kinesis ergo had?

Of the key caps I pulled off, they were all brown. Not sure what that means.

I'm wondering if a good scissor/laptop style keyboard may be better for people with weaker hand because the thinkpad keyboard I had wasn't that bad... I'll try the Das first however.

[ashort]

I've got my eyes on the Matias Tactile Pro 2 since it uses the Alps keyswitches which I hear are a bit lighter than the model M's... any opinions? how do Alps keyswitches compare to buckling springs in terms of resistance?

The Matias TP2 is wierd.  It's what I've typed on at home for about 80-90% of the last six months.  I love the feel of the keys as far tactile response.  Know this:  The TP2 does not have alps switches, but are purported to be "ALPS inspired".  I think they wobble far to much to be "ALPS inspired".  I've never really gotten used to the wobble, but then, I type on cherry MLs at work all day long, which don't know what it means to wobble at all.

The original TP has ALPS switches and I would almost rather have an original TP.   The general consensus on the TP2 is that they are Strongman switches.

On mine, the only TP2 I've ever typed on, sometimes...it gets the keys wrong.  Most of the time it's me on a typo, but I've watched and a lot of times the fault is in the keyboard, not me.  I don't know what to make of this, since I bought it slightly used.  (A STEAL at $100!)

Every review you've read (or might read if you google it) will say that the plastic case feels cheap and they are right.  

Every review that says this is a LOUD keyboard is right.  As if it didn't click loud enough, the click echos inside the case to presumably draw out the noise.  My wife hates it.  =-D  I would say that the cherry blues click like a small dry twig in an open field.  The Strongmans in the TP2 click like...a metal pipe banging the inside of a dumpster.  If that's what you are looking for, it'd be pure heaven.  =-D

Honestly, I'd let it go for less than I paid for it because I am looking for something better and I am leaning toward a pony in the xsphat stable, but I am only goign to buy ONE, and I can't decide on form factor..  I'll go back to the SMK-88 with blues while my search for perfection continues.  =-/  If I throw it up on ebay, I'll let you know.

I guess if I went hhkb pro, I could carry it with me and use it ALL the time, huh?  but then I'd never discover the pure unsolicited joy that is cherry browns....hmmm....

[IBI]

Of the key caps I pulled off, they were all brown. Not sure what that means.

They would be the brown cherries, also known as ergonomic or soft tactile. It's interesting to hear that you found them too soft, although I wonder how much of that was down to the unusual layout.

You could try a second hand Dell/SGI AT101/AT101W which do use real alps (black or white depending on the model I believe). I've got the AT102W (UK version) and I prefered it to my model M.

[djones]

They would be the brown cherries, also known as ergonomic or soft tactile. It's interesting to hear that you found them too soft, although I wonder how much of that was down to the unusual layout.

It was mostly the weird layout-- the keys on the kinesis ergo are in a depressed 'bowl' so that your finger have to 'reach' for the keys, if-ya-know-what-i-mean...

Does the Das 2 keyboard use blue cherry switches for all keys? I think I remember reading somewhere that the keys have different keyswitches depending on where it is on the keyboard... (like, TGBYHN have the heaviest keys because the forefinger is stronger than pinky, etc.)

[iMav]

Does the Das 2 keyboard use blue cherry switches for all keys? I think I remember reading somewhere that the keys have different keyswitches depending on where it is on the keyboard... (like, TGBYHN have the heaviest keys because the forefinger is stronger than pinky, etc.)

The original Das keyboard had "weighted" keys.  The Das 2 keyboard uses blue cherry keyswitches across the board.

[zillidot]

They would be the brown cherries, also known as ergonomic or soft tactile. It's interesting to hear that you found them too soft, although I wonder how much of that was down to the unusual layout.

It was mostly the weird layout-- the keys on the kinesis ergo are in a depressed 'bowl' so that your finger have to 'reach' for the keys, if-ya-know-what-i-mean...

If you would like to give the brown cherries another go, the Filco Majestouch (FKB104M/EB or FKBN104M/EB) is a normal (US) layout keyboard that uses brown cherries. It seems to be quite popular around here!

[rodney]

It was mostly the weird layout-- the keys on the kinesis ergo are in a depressed 'bowl' so that your finger have to 'reach' for the keys, if-ya-know-what-i-mean...

Does the Das 2 keyboard use blue cherry switches for all keys? I think I remember reading somewhere that the keys have different keyswitches depending on where it is on the keyboard... (like, TGBYHN have the heaviest keys because the forefinger is stronger than pinky, etc.)

I'm using the Kinesis contour board now and am lovin' it. It took me a few days to get adjusted to it; now I find the layout to be quite natural and comfortable. I didn't have any trouble reaching the keys. I have huge hands so that might be it.

[IBI]

It was mostly the weird layout-- the keys on the kinesis ergo are in a depressed 'bowl' so that your finger have to 'reach' for the keys, if-ya-know-what-i-mean...

Yeah, but if you were unusused to the angle then it seems like they should have felt harder to press

[djones]

I ordered the Das II yesterday, let's see how it works out. I might try the Filco but I feel uncomfortable buying from somewhere that doesn't have a return policy.

Yeah, but if you were unusused to the angle then it seems like they should have felt harder to press

That may have been it. The Kinesis Ergo wants your hands/wrist/forearm to be a certain width and angle from each other. Now, if only the two sides were separable..

[alpslover]

The original TP has ALPS switches and I would almost rather have an original TP.   The general consensus on the TP2 is that they are Strongman switches.

i haven't used a tp2, but my experience with imitation alps click tactile switches is that they feel 'rougher' and less refined than the real thing.  i have a few focus 2001 keyboards and about half of them have counterfeit white alps switches (they look exactly like real ones except they don't say 'alps' or have the round alps logo on them).  these fake alps switches are stiffer, and their travel is rougher, than the real thing.  but because of their greater stiffness at the beginning of key travel, the tactile 'break away' feeling is even greater than real alps switches.  for the same reason, though, i end up typing slower on them.  there is such a thing as too much click tactileness.

[ecru]

A CVT  Avant Prime is a new keyboard with white alps that could be worth looking into.  Reading other threads about some manufacturers replacing white alps with inferior strongmans it might be worth confirming they still use the original keyswitches before ordering.

[Donut]

Hello all, I just recently found this forum and am glad to find out I'm not the only one that cares keyboards. Question: what's a good clicky keyboard with a lighter touch?

If you don't mind a used keyboard, you might consider getting hold of an old NEC one. Those use NEC key switches with light blue sliders, and double-shot moulded key caps so the lettering won't wear off. Feel is definitely lighter than a Model M, and there is a definite click no matter how softly you press the keys down.

For pictures of an NEC APC-H4102E keyboard, see here. I have a (UK layout) NEC APC-H4122 which uses the same type of key switch. I can upload pictures if anyone is interested, but it appears to be very similar to the H4102E 'board.

A very quick search of the US eBay site shows an APC-H410E, for a quite-ridiculous Buy It Now price of $77.77(!). Maybe you could pick up one for a couple of dollars if you wait a while?

On the other hand, an APC-HA410 recently went for $260.90! From the pictures, that keyboard uses light blue Alps sliders, which look different to the NEC ones, so presumably the feel is different too. (I guess the A in the part number denotes Alps.)

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

If you don't mind a used keyboard, you might consider getting hold of an old NEC one. Those use NEC key switches with light blue sliders, and double-shot moulded key caps so the lettering won't wear off. Feel is definitely lighter than a Model M, and there is a definite click no matter how softly you press the keys down.

For pictures of an NEC APC-H4102E keyboard, see here. I have a (UK layout) NEC APC-H4122 which uses the same type of key switch. I can upload pictures if anyone is interested, but it appears to be very similar to the H4102E 'board.

6 months ago I saw this one lying in a pile of old computer gear (ancient macs mostly) during annual waste collection week.  Very soft and clicky.  Still kicking myself for not picking it up.

[djones]

I got my Das II keyboard today, am currently typing this very sentence with it. The HHKB Pro II oughta be coming later this week/early next week. Look forward to the review!

Side question: does anyone know the safest way to remove the keycaps on Das/Cherry keys?

[iMav]

Side question: does anyone know the safest way to remove the keycaps on Das/Cherry keys?

Use xsphat's patented, two-paper clip method.  

Take two paper clips (coated ones preferable), unbend them a bit and make two small "hooks".  Grab the key cap on opposite (diagonal) corners and pull straight up.

[xsphat]

Use xsphat's patented, two-paper clip method.  

What can I say? ghetto is as ghetto does.