Alps Appreciation Thread

[Dokyun]

Nevertheless, I wish they would start selling PBT caps.

Like the Unicomp Space Saving Keyboard, soon™.

What's gonna hit the market first? Matias PBT, Unicomp SSK, or Half-Life 3?

[mike52787]

Nevertheless, I wish they would start selling PBT caps.

Like the Unicomp Space Saving Keyboard, soon.

What's gonna hit the market first? Matias PBT, Unicomp SSK, or Half-Life 3?

or new production skcm/l switches

[alh84001]

Sneak peek

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I am thinking of putting SGI keycaps on an Omnikey. Unfortunately, there is one (and only one) issue - the Caps Lock key. SGI has stepped key with mount off-centre, and Omnikey expects a full-width key. I actually wouldn't mind putting Ctrl key up there regardless of size, but it's profile is just too different. I could cut Caps Lock key to fit, but that is too destructive for my taste. Ideally, there would be some way to move the mount a bit.

Another stumbling block is that keycaps are cold grey/beige in colour, and Omnikey case has had some yellowing, so there is clash there as well. I could follow Hypersphere and just dye it in off-white or some other colour, but that is something to think about.

And a slight annoyance, spacebars are not compatible - Omnikey on right, SGI on left

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And quick comment on SGI keycaps - they are simply gorgeous.

[emdude]

Whoa, the Omnikey space bar isn't 7u exactly?

or new production skcm/l switches

Well, I don't think that is even being developed, so I don't imagine we'll ever see those, sadly.

[mike52787]

Whoa, the Omnikey space bar isn't 7u exactly?

or new production skcm/l switches

Well, I don't think that is even being developed, so I don't imagine we'll ever see those, sadly.

Exactly.

[emdude]

Haha, you have a point.  While I seriously doubt that something like Half-Life 3 will ever see the light of day, I expect Matias PBT keycaps to come out at some point, though it might take another year or two.  Edgar Matias has already made significant investments in the tooling.  Not so sure about the Unicomp SSK, only hypothetical designs have ever been shared; they might sooner close out!

[E3E]

Does anyone have any opinions on Zealiostotles?

They're Zeal's Zealio switch housings with a stem from Aristotle clone switches. There's a lot of hype buzzing around them and some even say they favor them to blue Alps.

I just can't imagine them being better than Alps, but I'm very curious if anyone here has an opinion of them and how they compare to Alps.

[MandrewDavis]

Does anyone have any opinions on Zealiostotles?

They're Zeal's Zealio switch housings with a stem from Aristotle clone switches. There's a lot of hype buzzing around them and some even say they favor them to blue Alps.

I just can't imagine them being better than Alps, but I'm very curious if anyone here has an opinion of them and how they compare to Alps.

I ordered some NOS Aristotles ordered from Zeal set to ship out at the same time as his silencing clips. I intend on doing a stem-swap into at least the housing of the Zealios alphas. I can try to report back in a month or so with a comparison to NOS blue alps.

Also, I don't know if it is common knowledge, but I may have another (albeit expensive) source for brown alps

[Wingpad]

Does anyone have any opinions on Zealiostotles?

They're Zeal's Zealio switch housings with a stem from Aristotle clone switches. There's a lot of hype buzzing around them and some even say they favor them to blue Alps.

I just can't imagine them being better than Alps, but I'm very curious if anyone here has an opinion of them and how they compare to Alps.

I ordered some NOS Aristotles ordered from Zeal set to ship out at the same time as his silencing clips. I intend on doing a stem-swap into at least the housing of the Zealios alphas. I can try to report back in a month or so with a comparison to NOS blue alps.

Also, I don't know if it is common knowledge, but I may have another (albeit expensive) source for brown alps

Ooh, keep us posted! I would be lying if I said I wasn't interested.

What is this other source for brown alps, btw?

[MandrewDavis]

Some of you may have seen this on eBay, but here are some pictures from a recent AT&T Unix 7300 PC that was just sold. Looks to be the tactile variant.



Close up on the broken ones

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[Wingpad]

Some of you may have seen this on eBay, but here are some pictures from a recent AT&T Unix 7300 PC that was just sold. Looks to be the tactile variant.

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Close up on the broken ones :(

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Show Image

Oh wow, these certainly are expensive PCs. Looking back in eBay's history one sold for $700 recently. In any case, yeah, those do look like SKCM Browns. Here's another picture of the keyboard from an older listing:

What a weird layout.

[Hypersphere]

@alh84001: Is your Omnikey 101 the one with the US ANSI Enter key? If so, the spacebar on mine could work with an SGI spacebar -- it has insert mounts that line up and the extra stabilizer post could be cut off. In any event, I have a black 7.0x Matias spacebar on my Omnikey 101 and it works just fine. You can also order the swapped CapsLock and Control keys from "Northgate Bob" if you would like to have an unstepped Control key in the CapsLock space. I put the Tai-Hao Dolch set on mine, which has a non-stepped CapsLock.

@emdude, XMIT, Chyros, and anyone else who would care to respond: Regarding binding of Alps switches, what is the relative importance of the degree of wear, degree of cleanliness, and degree of wobble in determining binding or lack thereof?

I now have 3 Northgate Omnikey 101 keyboards with SKCM Alps switches. As received from eBay, the one that appeared to be the cleanest and with the least corrosion binds the most with off-center presses. The binding is the worst if the key press is in the top-right corner, next worst when struck top left, not as bad on either lower corner, and fine if struck dead center. The dirtiest board does not bind as much as the cleanest. And the one that was intermediate in cleanliness and corrosion is by far the best with respect to overall switch smoothness and lack of binding.

I also have two KBP V60 boards with Matias Click switches. These have the notorious Matias wobble, but the switches do not bind at all. Of course, these were obtained new, but I can't help but wonder if wobble might protect against binding.

Looks like I will need to find time to open up and clean the switches on the two boards that are exhibiting binding. I will review Chyros' video on the procedure first. Any other tips on how to deal with binding Alps switches would be appreciated!

Regarding springs: I'd like to take advantage of the currently ongoing GB that includes Alps springs:

1. Is gold-plating worth the extra cost?

2. What replacement spring weight would be best for moving the following Alps switches in the direction of blue Alps?

-- brown
-- black
-- white
-- undamped cream

[chyros]

@emdude, XMIT, Chyros, and anyone else who would care to respond: Regarding binding of Alps swithces, what is the relative importance of the degree of wear, degree of cleanliness, and degree of wobble in determining binding or lack thereof?

Alps switches don't really bind, I don't think any of my boards ever have. They get scratchy for dirt and dust, but binding, no. Alps boards tend to come with pretty effective stabilisers as well, though it's not always easy to put them back if you take the keycap off.

[Hypersphere]

@emdude, XMIT, Chyros, and anyone else who would care to respond: Regarding binding of Alps swithces, what is the relative importance of the degree of wear, degree of cleanliness, and degree of wobble in determining binding or lack thereof?

Alps switches don't really bind, I don't think any of my boards ever have. They get scratchy for dirt and dust, but binding, no. Alps boards tend to come with pretty effective stabilisers as well, though it's not always easy to put them back if you take the keycap off.

Then what is going on to make it very difficult to press the key if it is pressed very much off dead-center? This is quite marked on one of my Alps boards, but the keys do not otherwise feel scratchy.

I also have no issues with the stabilzers -- I have replaced stabilized keys often on Alps/Matias boards with no problem.

[klennkellon]

@emdude, XMIT, Chyros, and anyone else who would care to respond: Regarding binding of Alps swithces, what is the relative importance of the degree of wear, degree of cleanliness, and degree of wobble in determining binding or lack thereof?

Alps switches don't really bind, I don't think any of my boards ever have. They get scratchy for dirt and dust, but binding, no. Alps boards tend to come with pretty effective stabilisers as well, though it's not always easy to put them back if you take the keycap off.

Then what is going on to make it very difficult to press the key if it is pressed very much off dead-center? This is quite marked on one of my Alps boards, but the keys do not otherwise feel scratchy.

I also have no issues with the stabilzers -- I have replaced stabilized keys often on Alps/Matias boards with no problem.

Perhaps as they age Alps don't do off-center keypresses as well as lesser used Alps?

Cherrys saving grace may be one of Alps weaknesses.

[E3E]

@emdude, XMIT, Chyros, and anyone else who would care to respond: Regarding binding of Alps swithces, what is the relative importance of the degree of wear, degree of cleanliness, and degree of wobble in determining binding or lack thereof?

Alps switches don't really bind, I don't think any of my boards ever have. They get scratchy for dirt and dust, but binding, no. Alps boards tend to come with pretty effective stabilisers as well, though it's not always easy to put them back if you take the keycap off.

Then what is going on to make it very difficult to press the key if it is pressed very much off dead-center? This is quite marked on one of my Alps boards, but the keys do not otherwise feel scratchy.

I also have no issues with the stabilzers -- I have replaced stabilized keys often on Alps/Matias boards with no problem.

Perhaps as they age Alps don't do off-center keypresses as well as lesser used Alps?

Cherrys saving grace may be one of Alps weaknesses.

No, they do bind. I've had a board or two do this, including my SKCM Green 6085. When I checked that keyboard, the switches were squeaky clean, so it's either wear from use, some kind of weird aging/degradation (they were from 1992, so I don't know about aging, but perhaps some other kind of degradation)... Either way, it's all about the tops in that case. When the tops are swapped, the binding ceases.

My DocuTechs had debris in their switches but NONE of them had binding issues compared to the clean 6085. The caps had no shine either, so I really don't know what was up with that one.

[Hypersphere]

@E3E: Interesting. Have you tried cleaning the switches that were "binding" (or whatever we should call it when the switch does not readily depress when the keycaps is pressed off-center)? If so, did cleaning have any effect on binding?

When you swap tops, are you talking about only the top of the switch housing and not the spring, slider, or tactile/click plate? Have you tried swapping any of these components (spring, slider, or tactile/click plate) to see if it alleviated binding? What about lubing any of the switch components with dry teflon or other form of lube?

[E3E]

@E3E: Interesting. Have you tried cleaning the switches that were "binding" (or whatever we should call it when the switch does not readily depress when the keycaps is pressed off-center)? If so, did cleaning have any effect on binding?

When you swap tops, are you talking about only the top of the switch housing and not the spring, slider, or tactile/click plate? Have you tried swapping any of these components (spring, slider, or tactile/click plate) to see if it alleviated binding? What about lubing any of the switch components with dry teflon or other form of lube?

I did. I cleaned them and then lubricated them with molybdenum disulfide powder, which is a dry lubricant that sticks pretty well. It restored the feeling to a degree, but flat out swapping the top housings to salmon top housings (a contemporary switch to SKCM Green and one that matches it perfectly in terms of housing) took away any binding at all. By binding, I mean where the switch locks up pretty hard and is not smooth at all when exerting pressure off-center.

The only bit that needs swapping is the actual top. Salmons and pine SKCM Green use the same spring and switchplate though, so there's not much to worry about in mixing parts up. I kept the tactile leaf springs from SKCM Green, of course.

The majority of perceived smoothness and the binding issues come from the top housing as opposed to the slider, in my opinion.

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the further details. Is there a table posted somewhere that lists the various Alps switches and which parts are compatible among them?

[E3E]

Thanks for the further details. Is there a table posted somewhere that lists the various Alps switches and which parts are compatible among them?

Not exactly. That's a good idea for a spreadsheet though. The Deskthority pages on each switch sometimes list the switchplates length and color as well as slits or no slits (pine or bamboo).

According to Jacbolos, SKCM Brown and SKCM Cream's first generation have the symmetrical top housing that no other switch has.

Almost every SKCL top housing is the same except the generation that comes along with SKCL Yellow, though I'm not sure how it affects feel. The slits are slightly different and thinner.

Every SKCM top housing should be compatible with every switch aside from SKCM Brown, even if they have the Alps logos stamped on them.

SKCL Compacts are good for harvesting full length switch plates from in order to repair prized switches with long switchplates like SKCM Blue, SKCL Green, SKCL Brown, SKCM Brown, etc.

Long switchplates cannot be used in bottom housings designed for short switch plates and vise versa.

Springs are a trickier issue. I've found that Salmon and SKCM Green springs are exactly the same, and a lot of SKCM switches from that era used the same spring weight. SKCL Yellow also uses the same weight if I'm not mistaken.

Alps switches got very uniform in terms of spring weight around the late late 80s and early 90s.

I'm not sure about the subtle differences between every single tactile leaf. I know that a lot are a tiny bit different. SKCM Blue has a much smoother click leaf compared to SKCM White and this is a huge reason for its distinctive feel and possibly sound as well. White is a pinch sharper on the tactile bump and that completely changes the feel.

[chyros]

@emdude, XMIT, Chyros, and anyone else who would care to respond: Regarding binding of Alps swithces, what is the relative importance of the degree of wear, degree of cleanliness, and degree of wobble in determining binding or lack thereof?

Alps switches don't really bind, I don't think any of my boards ever have. They get scratchy for dirt and dust, but binding, no. Alps boards tend to come with pretty effective stabilisers as well, though it's not always easy to put them back if you take the keycap off.

Then what is going on to make it very difficult to press the key if it is pressed very much off dead-center? This is quite marked on one of my Alps boards, but the keys do not otherwise feel scratchy.

I also have no issues with the stabilzers -- I have replaced stabilized keys often on Alps/Matias boards with no problem.

Perhaps as they age Alps don't do off-center keypresses as well as lesser used Alps?

Cherrys saving grace may be one of Alps weaknesses.

No, they do bind. I've had a board or two do this, including my SKCM Green 6085. When I checked that keyboard, the switches were squeaky clean, so it's either wear from use, some kind of weird aging/degradation (they were from 1992, so I don't know about aging, but perhaps some other kind of degradation)... Either way, it's all about the tops in that case. When the tops are swapped, the binding ceases.

My DocuTechs had debris in their switches but NONE of them had binding issues compared to the clean 6085. The caps had no shine either, so I really don't know what was up with that one.

Without a doubt, it's not about ageing. I'm typing this on an Alps board from 1986 that has no binding issues whatever.

I know heavy use definitely makes Alps worse, I have some very well-loved examples including ones that are quite clean. However, although those keys bind somewhat (not hugely), a normal keypress doesn't go down all that well either, so it's not just an orientation-dependent effect.

That said:

Cherrys saving grace may be one of Alps weaknesses.

This is definitely true. Cherry keyboards have remarkably effective stabilisers. Although this isn't a virtue of the switches themselves, it's definitely one of the best advantages of Cherry as a manufacturer IMO .

[E3E]

Yeah, see. With the keys that were binding on the 6085, they would go down smooth if they were pressed on the center, but just had issues with off-center presses. A good test for this is just twiddling your fingers across the keyboard and see if you get any resistance in the presses. If so, those are binding issues, if not, you're fine.

I couldn't do this on boards with binding issues, but on boards with smooth switches, it was no problem at all.

[emdude]

It does make sense that the wobble with Matias switches might be a boon; the smaller sliders means more leeway within the housing.

For what it's worth, beam spring switches are incredibly wobbly (though I am not sure if it is to the same extent as Matias switches), but they can also handle off-center presses extremely well, probably the best of all the switches I've tried.

[chyros]

It does make sense that the wobble with Matias switches might be a boon; the smaller sliders means more leeway within the housing.

For what it's worth, beam spring switches are incredibly wobbly (though I am not sure if it is to the same extent as Matias switches), but they can also handle off-center presses extremely well, probably the best of all the switches I've tried.

I have a board with switches that wobble so much it's ridiculous, they might as well be tiny joysticks. Doesn't bind at all. In that video I stress the unnecessary negative connotations that most people have with wobble. Not that it's necessarily a good thing, mind you, but it's definitely not necessarily a bad thing. If there's room inside the switch for it, it's completely harmless and arguably beneficial.

[fohat.digs]

If there's room inside the switch for it, it's completely harmless and arguably beneficial.

Under certain conditions, "wobble" can make off-center strikes less problematic.

[mike52787]

oh baby.
all credit for the idea for this mod goes to sprit. This is still a work in progress of course, but I love it so far.

[emdude]

Ooh, looks pretty sweet, like a funky M0116.

[E3E]

It does make sense that the wobble with Matias switches might be a boon; the smaller sliders means more leeway within the housing.

For what it's worth, beam spring switches are incredibly wobbly (though I am not sure if it is to the same extent as Matias switches), but they can also handle off-center presses extremely well, probably the best of all the switches I've tried.

The thing with Alps is that, depending on the condition, they handle off-center presses like champs with no binding at all. I still don't know why the 6085 with its clean switches and no noticeable wear on the keys (not even on the space bar) had binding issues.

The SKCM Blues in my Orion, for example, don't bind at all and are just wonderfully smooth. The 6085's switches I swapped into Salmon housings don't bind either. Whenever I decide to put them back into the 6085, I'm going to keep the salmon tops so that they stay that way.

[mike52787]

hand wiring pr0n
All the traces have been cut on the pcb, its just there for structural reasons.

[alienman82]

removed.

[chyros]

If there's room inside the switch for it, it's completely harmless and arguably beneficial.

Under certain conditions, "wobble" can make off-center strikes less problematic.

Exactly .

Show Image

hand wiring pr0n
All the traces have been cut on the pcb, its just there for structural reasons.

Eh, why would you do this? Oo

[alh84001]

TKL is TKL after all. If only Northgate made a TKL board - Omnikey SSK 

@Hypersphere - I don't mind using Northgate spacebar, they are both ABS anyway and without any legends. And I don't mind having a Caps Lock legend there, even if it's mapped to Ctrl, but using the original Ctrl variation of the original would still mismatch in color and legend.

BTW, what do we know about Omnikey Evolution? There is very little information about it, I couldn't even find info on what switch(es) it has. I presume SKCM White.

[mike52787]

Show Image

hand wiring pr0n
All the traces have been cut on the pcb, its just there for structural reasons.

Eh, why would you do this? Oo

you didnt expect me to chase down all the original traces, did you? :)) the reason I did this was to get an easier matrix to work with in tmk. noone makes a fkeyless tkl pcb in alps, so I have to do it myself.

[chyros]

Show Image

hand wiring pr0n
All the traces have been cut on the pcb, its just there for structural reasons.

Eh, why would you do this? Oo

you didnt expect me to chase down all the original traces, did you? :)) the reason I did this was to get an easier matrix to work with in tmk. noone makes a fkeyless tkl pcb in alps, so I have to do it myself.

Ah, I see, I hadn't noticed you'd chopped something off xD .

[Hypersphere]

@E3E: What is the effect on Alps switches whose sliders are not rotationally symmetric if the slider were assembled backwards? That is, with the notched side not facing the switch plate? Would this cause binding? If so, is it possible that binding switches were improperly assembled? (Probably not, but thought I'd ask nevertheless).

[mike52787]

disregard this I am a dumb and didnt read correctly

[E3E]

@E3E: What is the effect on Alps switches whose sliders are not rotationally symmetric if the slider were assembled backwards? That is, with the notched side not facing the switch plate? Would this cause binding? If so, is it possible that binding switches were improperly assembled? (Probably not, but thought I'd ask nevertheless).

Just flipped around the slider for a blue switch from my Orion, with no binding, and there were no issues either way around. The SKCM Greens I disassembled were all properly oriented as well.

It's very odd. Maybe the switch tops were defective. It's hard to really know, as they really look the same as any other tops ostensibly. No dirt, no noticeable wear, at least on the 6085's switch tops.

[Hypersphere]

@E3E: I've been cleaning my latest Northgate Ominikey 101 -- the one with the binding switches -- and it is ironic, because this is the clearnest Omnikey I have yet seen, but its switches bind more than the ones that were dirtier and more corroded. We seem to have encountered a new keyboard phenomenon. We might name it something like "The Alps Binding Paradox" or "The Alps Binding Anomaly".

I have opened two of the binding switches and put them back together using the method of putting a drop of synthetic oil on the slider to hold the spring in place for reassembly. This simple  procedure resulted in alleviating much of the binding.

I opened another switch and lubricated the slider rails in the switch housing. This resulted in virtually eliminating binding.

I am considering doing a thorough cleaning and lubing of all the switches. If I do this, I will evaluate binding and post the results.

[alh84001]

i had three boards with SKCM Whites, and all three of them had issues with binding, two of them major issues. Granted, all of the keyboards were not in greatest condition, so it was to be expected.

I cleaned and lubed slider rails in switches from one, and this eliminated binding. I also cleaned switches from another one, but I did not lube them. I still have to try them out in a plate with keycaps, to see if there is any binding left.

Just my $.02

[Hypersphere]

@alh84001: Appreciate your comments!

I've tested some other Alps boards for binding. So far, the following do NOT bind:

+ Apple Extended Orange Alps
+ Custom 60% Brown Alps
+ ESI/Ortek White Alps Clone
+ IBM 5140 Brown Alps and Compact Green Alps
+ Leading Edge DC-2014 Blue Alps
+ NeXT Non-ADB ISO Black Alps
+ NeXT Non-ADB US ANSI Undamped Cream Alps
+ NeXT Non-ADB US ANSI Undamped Cream Alps
+ Ortek 84 White Alps Clone
+ SIIG Suntouch Jr White Alps
+ V60 Matias Click
+ V60 Matias Quiet
+ V60 Matias Click
+ Wang 724 NIB Black Alps
+ Zenith Z-150 Green Alps

The following DO Bind:

- Northgate Omnikey 101 White Alps == very slight on upper left corner of Backslash and Enter
- Northgate Omnikey 101 White Alps == moderate on several keys with off-center key presses
- Northgate Omnikey 101 White Alps == moderate to severe on numerous keys with off-center key presses
- SIIG Minitouch 84 Monterey Blue == moderate on upper left corner of Backspace and Enter

Preliminary tests on the most-affected Omnikey 101 indicate that binding can be alleviated and possibly eliminated by lubricating the slider rails of the switches with Superlube 51010 oil.

[Keycap]

Would it be safe to clean Alps switch housings/sliders with dental tabs? I found some White Alps switches that are really dirty, and using dental tabs would probably be the most effective way to clean them in a short amount of time. And it wouldn't be too much of a loss if the plastic had some terrible reaction with the dental tabs for whatever reason, as we're talking about White Alps here, easily the most common Alps switches.

And I'm not going to be soaking the switchplates, obviously.

[mike52787]

Would it be safe to clean Alps switch housings/sliders with dental tabs? I found some White Alps switches that are really dirty, and using dental tabs would probably be the most effective way to clean them in a short amount of time. And it wouldn't be too much of a loss if the plastic had some terrible reaction with the dental tabs for whatever reason, as we're talking about White Alps here, easily the most common Alps switches.

And I'm not going to be soaking the switchplates, obviously.

Yeah, a few other people have done this with no adverse effects.

[Hypersphere]

Dental tabs have a whitening agent, which would not be needed for cleaning switches. You might want to use ordinary detergent and/or an ultrasonic cleaner instead.

[Mattr567]

How would you guys feel about a SKCL Green swap into my FK-3001? Since I now have the Packard I don't feel the need for a White board. Having a full size linear board is something I've been wanting for a while.

Provided of course I can fix those damn top housings. Going to try denture tabs.

[Hypersphere]

You can convert a tactile/linear Alps switch to a linear switch by removing the tactile/click leaf. No need to transfer anything from the green Alps.

[mike52787]

You can convert a tactile/linear Alps switch to a linear switch by removing the tactile/click leaf. No need to transfer anything from the green Alps.

green alps are arguably much better than linearized any other alps

[chyros]

You can convert a tactile/linear Alps switch to a linear switch by removing the tactile/click leaf. No need to transfer anything from the green Alps.

green alps are arguably much better than linearized any other alps

Are they though? Granted, I don't have any NOS linear Alps boards, but similar-condition linearised boards felt at least as good as green Alps Oo .

[mike52787]

You can convert a tactile/linear Alps switch to a linear switch by removing the tactile/click leaf. No need to transfer anything from the green Alps.

green alps are arguably much better than linearized any other alps

Are they though? Granted, I don't have any NOS linear Alps boards, but similar-condition linearised boards felt at least as good as green Alps Oo .

my green alps were near mint, and were the smoothest most statisfying linears I ever tried.

[Hypersphere]

I suppose there could be another advantage of doing the mod by transplanting the sliders from the green Alps switches -- they have C2 rotational symmetry, so that you needn't worry about which side of the slider faces the switch plate.

[klennkellon]

Someone told me that when they linearised their AT-101w they thought that it felt too "slow" combing back up. But this may just be linear Alps in general compared to Cherry.