Author Topic: Breaking in switches  (Read 3744 times)

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Offline richieekb

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  • Posts: 6
Breaking in switches
« on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 10:30:50 »
Hi, quick question, is it necessary for me to lube switches before trying to break them in? I just want to make sure before i start. Or lubina the switch makes it easier to break in?

Offline Alejo1707

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Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 11:04:27 »
Break in before lubing. The break in process works on the premise that you have parts rubbing against one another and eventually smoothen up. Lubing defeats this.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk


Offline nevin

  • Posts: 1646
  • Location: US
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 12:14:47 »
You may see very little (if any) difference before/after "breaking in".

Most of us will just pick a switch we want for the build and build & use the board (with or without lubing is up to the person's preferance).

It used to be more of a "thing" years ago when switches were not as smooth as they are stock from the factory as they are these days.

But do whatever you like, it's all about what you like.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 12:44:37 »
Breaking in without lube means wearing the switch down, if it takes 500k strokes, while it's only it's 1% of the lifespan* it's the harshest time in the lifespan.

If you use lube, not only can you pretty much start using it and get the same feel right away but instead of needing 500k strokes to wear in that first 1% and become smooth it now takes 5mil strokes to wear down that 1%. Instead of the switch lasting 50mil strokes it can now go 50.5mil, that's a 10% lifespan extension.


I disagree with Nevin it being an old thing.
There has yet to be a major shift in the industry regarding the amount of lube in a switch, specialized boutique switches have changed, some have more, some have none, but as a whole things have not changed other than Cherry replacing old, dead molds.


*most of these numbers are just for reference and not based on any real numbers.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline nevin

  • Posts: 1646
  • Location: US
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 13:25:26 »
Good point.
No offense taken.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline richieekb

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 13:59:28 »
So, I don't know if i understood that correctly, but by lubing the switch it would make it a significantly harder process to break in the switch, so in that case, does breaking in switches makes it so that i don't need to lube them? or is it still recommended?

Offline nevin

  • Posts: 1646
  • Location: US
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 17:03:28 »
lubing switches are a personal preference. TOTALLY up to the user.

in summary.... leslie was saying if you lube them from the start, it can actually extend the life of the switch.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Alejo1707

  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Quito
  • Gimme some more caps!
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 17:16:50 »
So, I don't know if i understood that correctly, but by lubing the switch it would make it a significantly harder process to break in the switch, so in that case, does breaking in switches makes it so that i don't need to lube them? or is it still recommended?
People on this thread really need to read my friend. Yes, lubing makes the break-in process longer if not impossible for the lifespan of the switch.

It is recommended to lube after break-in, but I usually recommend testing the switch to see if YOU need it. Do you have a plan to break them in already?

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk


Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 19:35:15 »
So, I don't know if i understood that correctly, but by lubing the switch it would make it a significantly harder process to break in the switch, so in that case, does breaking in switches makes it so that i don't need to lube them? or is it still recommended?

"Breaking in" means wearing the parts/sliders to where they're smooth but also perfectly match anything they rub against (called match wearing), to do so means wearing them down some, just like sanding a board smooth.

Lube fills in the imperfections and reduces friction over the highs, so while it may only be 99% as smooth as a fully match worn switch it's going to slide with less friction which should more than making up for the lack of match wearing. This means you don't have to wear down the plastic to get the same smoothness (you won't notice that 1%). Yes, it may take far longer or may never even fully match wear before you replace it, it doesn't matter and if it does ever fully wear in it will be better than a dry break in.

Maybe what I've written below will help you understand better.


People on this thread really need to read my friend. Yes, lubing makes the break-in process longer if not impossible for the lifespan of the switch.

It is recommended to lube after break-in, but I usually recommend testing the switch to see if YOU need it. Do you have a plan to break them in already?

Read what? A keyboard lube guide?
Which one, some of them advocate spray lubing so just saying go read up is utterly useless, just because it's on the internet does not mean the person knows what the heck they're talking about.

Read up on lubrication practices on something where they spend big bucks for peak performance and see how it compares, except in a few extremely fringe circumstances with specific reasons for doing so they're not breaking things in or match wearing without some sort of lube. The reason we pre-lube parts (including switch manufacturers) is because what you propose leads to inconsistent results. Yes, you get perfectly match worn parts quickly but how much wear and tear did it cause in the process? One switch may need 2% wear, another may need 10% or even 20% wear to be smooth. And what if there's a minor flaw somewhere? Lube protects the parts, allowing things to slowly work together rather than just grinding against each other until they fit together or destroy each other in the process.

And it's more than just friction and smoothness.
Lube has another purpose in that it flushes/pushes contaminants such as bits of worn plastic or dust out of the "groove" (where things ride or rub), it's not just about the initial friction and wear. Your method introduces contaminants in the form of worn plastic (and metal) with nothing to push it out of the way. This leads to deep scratches and a worse surface finish even when match worn, sure, you lube after, but the damage is already done. Look up wet sanding paint as a good example of this, you need to keep the contaminants flowing out and away.

Does it take longer, yeah, but it doesn't matter because you get other benefits and similar performance right from the start.
Unless they're side by side there's pretty much no way you could tell them apart and when it does finally break in your results are even better though hardly noticeable.



You are correct though, not all switches benefit.
The problem is you don't always have the option of going back and doing it later. You also don't know how consistently lubed they are, you may get switches from multiple batches and different amounts of lube or differences in how they applied it.

That isn't to say you have to lube switches, I'm just saying if you're going to, do it the right way and and do it from the start, not after it's done some damage and created inconsistencies and damage you can never recover from.

Which brings us to an important thing to note, switches are only the same once.
If you do decide to lube switches that have been used or broken in, DO NOT MIX AND MATCH PARTS, doing so means they're no longer match worn to each other and the whole process gets to start over. I would even go so far as to say mark them as to what keys they resided under because they don't get worn the same that way either. For example an F-key will have taken far fewer hits than the E key, so now you have stem/housing wear but also spring age and spring pocket wear to contend with.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline Alejo1707

  • Posts: 294
  • Location: Quito
  • Gimme some more caps!
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 01 May 2022, 19:57:16 »
So, I don't know if i understood that correctly, but by lubing the switch it would make it a significantly harder process to break in the switch, so in that case, does breaking in switches makes it so that i don't need to lube them? or is it still recommended?

"Breaking in" means wearing the parts/sliders to where they're smooth but also perfectly match anything they rub against (called match wearing), to do so means wearing them down some, just like sanding a board smooth.

Lube fills in the imperfections and reduces friction over the highs, so while it may only be 99% as smooth as a fully match worn switch it's going to slide with less friction which should more than making up for the lack of match wearing. This means you don't have to wear down the plastic to get the same smoothness (you won't notice that 1%). Yes, it may take far longer or may never even fully match wear before you replace it, it doesn't matter and if it does ever fully wear in it will be better than a dry break in.

Maybe what I've written below will help you understand better.


People on this thread really need to read my friend. Yes, lubing makes the break-in process longer if not impossible for the lifespan of the switch.

It is recommended to lube after break-in, but I usually recommend testing the switch to see if YOU need it. Do you have a plan to break them in already?

Read what? A keyboard lube guide?
Which one, some of them advocate spray lubing so just saying go read up is utterly useless, just because it's on the internet does not mean the person knows what the heck they're talking about.

Read up on lubrication practices on something where they spend big bucks for peak performance and see how it compares, except in a few extremely fringe circumstances with specific reasons for doing so they're not breaking things in or match wearing without some sort of lube. The reason we pre-lube parts (including switch manufacturers) is because what you propose leads to inconsistent results. Yes, you get perfectly match worn parts quickly but how much wear and tear did it cause in the process? One switch may need 2% wear, another may need 10% or even 20% wear to be smooth. And what if there's a minor flaw somewhere? Lube protects the parts, allowing things to slowly work together rather than just grinding against each other until they fit together or destroy each other in the process.

And it's more than just friction and smoothness.
Lube has another purpose in that it flushes/pushes contaminants such as bits of worn plastic or dust out of the "groove" (where things ride or rub), it's not just about the initial friction and wear. Your method introduces contaminants in the form of worn plastic (and metal) with nothing to push it out of the way. This leads to deep scratches and a worse surface finish even when match worn, sure, you lube after, but the damage is already done. Look up wet sanding paint as a good example of this, you need to keep the contaminants flowing out and away.

Does it take longer, yeah, but it doesn't matter because you get other benefits and similar performance right from the start.
Unless they're side by side there's pretty much no way you could tell them apart and when it does finally break in your results are even better though hardly noticeable.



You are correct though, not all switches benefit.
The problem is you don't always have the option of going back and doing it later. You also don't know how consistently lubed they are, you may get switches from multiple batches and different amounts of lube or differences in how they applied it.

That isn't to say you have to lube switches, I'm just saying if you're going to, do it the right way and and do it from the start, not after it's done some damage and created inconsistencies and damage you can never recover from.

Which brings us to an important thing to note, switches are only the same once.
If you do decide to lube switches that have been used or broken in, DO NOT MIX AND MATCH PARTS, doing so means they're no longer match worn to each other and the whole process gets to start over. I would even go so far as to say mark them as to what keys they resided under because they don't get worn the same that way either. For example an F-key will have taken far fewer hits than the E key, so now you have stem/housing wear but also spring age and spring pocket wear to contend with.
It was a quick question, not an open discussion on snake oil practices on the custom keyboard community. I tried to provide OP with exactly what he asked, why you people force things this far? You can always open a thread on your own you know...

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk


Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4519
Re: Breaking in switches
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 03 May 2022, 02:13:25 »
why you people force things this far?

You do you realize where you are and what we do here, right? 
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion