I need a new keyboard. Geekhackers help me out!

[exia]

I have decided to get a mechanical keyboard. Here are some of my thoughts.

It has to be tenkeyless (or a smaller form factor than a normal keyboard). I center the typing section of the keyboard to the LCD and the numpad gets in the way of the mouse.

I like the Realforce 87U but with the cost of the keyboard+shipping+taxes+exchange rate it will be $350+ Canadian. It's too much for a keyboard newbie like me. So I'm considering the IBM Model M Space Saver (I have seen YouTube videos of the Model M and the noise! It might drive me crazy. The Realforce keyboard is more quiet) or one of the Tenkeyless keyboards from elitekeyboards.com

How does the Model M compare to other keyboards that are less/more expensive? Is it good value for the money? Is there a black version of the Model M? Is Ebay the only place to buy the Model M? Recommended sellers? How much can I expect to pay for one (before shipping)? Does unicomp make a replica tenkeyless Model M? I didn't see it on their website.

The cheapest tenkeyless on EKB is $85 with Fukka unbranded white ALPS mechanical key switches, how do those compare with the Model M switches?

Does anyone have any other keyboard recommendations? Looking to spend around the same money as a Model M. I am kind of set on the Model M but if anyone wants to sway me to another keyboard I am willing to listen.

[spolia optima]

You sound like a brown cherry type.

That said, the Model M is just about the best keyboard ever made (save for the model F), the action is absolutely perfect, significantly more "real" feeling than most cherry or alps switches. If you can get a nice spacesaver, go for it. Yes, there's a black model m, but they're pretty rare and always close for lots of $$.

Unicomp makes the spacesaver, it's not tenkeyless. It's more like the M-2, and trims a lot of stuff off the sides. I recommend it if you're looking at Unicomp.

If you're gonna spend $90 on a keyboard, the fukka can't be a bad bet (i haven't tried them myself), but I would recommend either saving a few extra bucks and going for a tea-axis (or blue) cherry tenkeyless, or an IBM spacesaver.

[ironcoder]

A Model M is a huge, aircraft carrier of a keyboard. They are very positive because of the mechanism so you can type very accurately. However, they are not as fast as something like a Filco with Cherry Browns just because the actuating force is so much lower on the Cherry switches.

Model Ms are *the* value keyboards of all time, no more are being made ever and if you keep yours in good condition, if you're ever stupid enough to want to sell it, you'll recover everything you spent and maybe more.

One good seller is clickykeyboards.com. He is not cheap, but he's honest, ships promptly, and judging from what I've read (I only bought new keyboards from him) the used ones he sells are clean as a whistle.

The other guys can give you more comments.

[keyb_gr]

I'd think one of the tenkeyless Filcos with Cherry switches would be the right thing for you. Majestouch seems to be out of labeled ones with browns and blues at the moment though, all you can currently get is unlabeled ones with browns (fine if you're a good touch typist) or labeled ones with blacks (not a bad switch per se, but not first choice in terms of feel). Thus I hope it's not too urgent.

Model M minis are collector's items, and unless you stumble across a NIB one, you never really know what you get. Plus if you aren't sure whether the noise level is for you... Ms have a rather meaty metallic sound, quite unlike the high-pitched click you get with blues.

As far as the Fukkas are concerned, I'd make sure you're an ALPS guy before considering those. Maybe try a Dell AT101W or somesuch. (Besides, it's not like noise levels would be particularly low, quite the contrary.) Blue Cherry switches tend to be a much safer bet when buying blind.

[itlnstln]

Clickykeyboards sells good stuff.  You might pay a little more, but you are getting something clean and in good condition.  I bought one of my Ms from them, and it was like new.

[spolia optima]

I've heard nothing but good things about clickykeyboards, but I think half the fun of a Model M is finding it and cleaning it up for yourself

[microsoft windows]

Taking a look at Clickykeyboards.com, they sold an Industrial Space Saver a while ago.

[exia]

is there such things as a mechanical keyboard with half height keys?

[Mercen_505]

He could get a Filco tenkeyless with cherry or fukka switches for under 100 USD. By the way, did anyone get one of the fukka boards when they became available a few months ago? I'm wondering how that panned out.

is there such things as a mechanical keyboard with half height keys?

The Cherry ML switches are low profile, and usually have short keys to go with them. Just look at the ML-4100 as an example. The only problem I've seen is that they aren't always friendly to key strikes that aren't dead center (that is, they can hang when your finger hits the edge of the key). I was also going to mention to IBM M4, but then I remembered it's rubber done.

[microsoft windows]

He could get a Filco tenkeyless with cherry or fukka switches for under 100 USD. By the way, did anyone get one of the fukka boards when they became available a few months ago? I'm wondering how that panned out.




The Cherry ML switches are low profile, and usually have short keys to go with them. Just look at the ML-4100 as an example. The only problem I've seen is that they aren't always friendly to key strikes that aren't dead center (that is, they can hang when your finger hits the edge of the key). I was also going to mention to IBM M4, but then I remembered it's rubber done.

What about the M2? I bet some modding can be done to remove the numeric keypad.

[exia]

What is the model F?

Why recommend me the Cherry Brown? How do the members here know what keyboard I would like?

[InSanCen]

What is the model F?

Why recommend me the Cherry Brown?

The best buckling spring keyboard ever made, by all accounts. Like an M, but with better feel to it.

I am still looking for one that I can easily convert that won't rape my wallet too badly.

[bigpook]

Ideally, you want something new. At least for your first. After that, if you get hooked you can troll ebay and goodwill for whatever used stuff that can be found.

So if its new and needs to be tenkeyless and doesn't have the cost of a topre than you want to look at a filco tenkeyless.

The brown cherries are light tactile switches with no click, the blue cherries are similar but with a click. The fukka is tactile and clicky and LOUD. I like the fukka but its still a tad much resistance. ( I am trying to mitigate that by changing out the click leafs with those from a black alps)

So if you want a light key with little noise(except for bottoming out) get the brown cherry filco.
You want a little bit of noise? get the blue cherry.
You want alot of noise and some pretty good key feel, get the fukka.

Just about everyone here has some kind of IBM model M, but I would suggest a Unicomp spacesaver to start with. It has a numpad though, but its a great keyboard.

[InSanCen]

Nice switch, terrible layout.  I prefer the IBM Mini.

Hence me looking for a cheaper one to convert. I am not sure if I can as adjust to that layout.

[ch_123]

I like the fukka but its still a tad much resistance. ( I am trying to mitigate that by changing out the click leafs with those from a black alps)

Metal leaves are more to do with tactility than resistance. I put a Black Alps leaf into my Blue Alps assembly and got... a lighter Black Alps.

Still felt as bad as a Black Alps, so I went back to the Blue Alps again.

[exia]

i see one for sale here

any predictions on what it will close for?

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Model-M-Space-Saver-Clicky-Keyboard-NIB_W0QQitemZ180449593164QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2a03a2474c

[Hak Foo]

Nice switch, terrible layout.  I prefer the IBM Mini.

I recently tried an XT F, and found it has a resonance when you strike a key which is irksome.

[bigpook]

Metal leaves are more to do with tactility than resistance. I put a Black Alps leaf into my Blue Alps assembly and got... a lighter Black Alps.

Still felt as bad as a Black Alps, so I went back to the Blue Alps again.

interesting. I am halfway done with the swap but the HHKB arrived a day or so ago so it may be a bit before I get back to finishing it.

I like the fukka switch; while its a big improvement over the original XM its still not quite there for me. I want to lighten it up just a little bit, than it will be perfect (for me, anyways).
I am probably the only one here that actually likes the black ALPS switches, I really like the feel of them.

[ch_123]

I don't get them or like them at all. You'd think that the click leaves would just add some noise to it, but it actually makes them feel far more substantial. Oddly enough, because you don't bottom out on them as hard compared with Black Alps, they aren't that much louder in normal use.

I'd say that you'd like the Blue Alps, if you were fortunate enough to get your hands on some. Now, if only I knew about these things when Bilm was selling his Blue Alps modded Filco...

[bigpook]

sounds like the black alps are an acquired taste.
I remember when billm was here, IIRC we both got the filco XM. I ended up putting black alps in mine as they were readily available and he had a cache of blue ALPS.
I need to find the thread and re-read it. Even then he wasn't happy with it for some reason and ended up selling it on ebay.

I have an eye open for blue alps now, unless they are truly mythical like unicorns and faieries, they will turn up somewhere, sometime. NIB or close to new would be awesome but that may be like having faith in the easter bunny. Ain't gonna happen.

[microsoft windows]

I've heard of some Chicony and Northgate keyboards with blue ALPS.
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CHICONY-Keyboard-5181-BLUE-MONTEREY-SLIDERS_W0QQitemZ200423070792QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item2eaa255c48
Not sure if these are the original blue ALPS but they're worth a look.

[bigpook]

I don't know for sure. But I would want to harvest the keys so I can put them in a filco.

[bigpook]

thanks webwit. I take it the SGI's are using ALPS switches. I just emailed the seller and asked if he would pop a key and tell me the color of the slider.

[ch_123]

SGI's use Cream switches.

[ch_123]

The ones I dug out of an AEK II are definitely more a cream than White colour. However, I suspect that some were Cream, others were White.

Aging of plastic?

[ch_123]

I don't think so.  Sandy's site has the creams but I can't see any difference in the click leaf.

That's what I meant (I think?) There were cream sliders with dampeners, and there were white sliders with dampeners, but the switches were identical except for the colour of the sliders.

[patrickgeekhack]

I think we brainwashed the OP.

I think we did.

OP: It looks like you may well be on your way to build a collection. I am not try to tell you what keyboard you should get, but just some things to keep in mind. Buckling spring keyboards are quite loud. If you will be using it in a shared environment or at night, keep in mind that others may be annoyed. When you think about your first mechanical keyboard, what are the things that come to your mind? Click? Tactile bump? The brown Cherries are very nice to type, really. However, if you come from a rubber dome and are used to bottom out, then you will need some time to notice the subtle tactile point of the brown Cherries. Blue Cherries switches are less loud and have a clear tactile point.

That being said, we are just telling you our feeling and personal opinions. In the end, you'll have to try out a few switches before you can decide which one you like best, although some just get one keyboard and live happily ever after.

[exia]

What is the difference between a keyboard made in the UK and a keyboard made in the US. I am looking at these two keyboards here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/CLEAN-1997-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-42H1292-Unit-448_W0QQitemZ130354824664QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e59c0c5d8

http://cgi.ebay.com/CLEAN-1990-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-1391401-Unit-455_W0QQitemZ140371445607QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item20aeca4767

How much does clickykeyboards charge for shipping (to Canada)? The keyboard price is $45 + unknown shipping but if the shipping it too high I might as well get a model M from ebay? (I emailed clickykeyboard last week for a shipping quote, no reply yet hopefully because they don't work on weekends).

[AndrewZorn]

the US ones are made better and stronger, and the money went to support working families,
the UK ones are riddled with electrical problems and often have ghosting/transposition issues when typing words like 'color'

[microsoft windows]

the US ones are made better and stronger, and the money went to support working families,
the UK ones are riddled with electrical problems and often have ghosting/transposition issues when typing words like 'color'

So they're trying to force their spellings upon others?

[ch_123]

What is the difference between a keyboard made in the UK and a keyboard made in the US. I am looking at these two keyboards here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/CLEAN-1997-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-42H1292-Unit-448_W0QQitemZ130354824664QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item1e59c0c5d8

http://cgi.ebay.com/CLEAN-1990-IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-1391401-Unit-455_W0QQitemZ140371445607QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item20aeca4767

How much does clickykeyboards charge for shipping (to Canada)? The keyboard price is $45 + unknown shipping but if the shipping it too high I might as well get a model M from ebay? (I emailed clickykeyboard last week for a shipping quote, no reply yet hopefully because they don't work on weekends).

Note that the product numbers are different (1391401 vs 42H1292) There's lots of info in the IBM Wiki and Keyboard Reference, but the basic summary is that the 42H1292 is a cheaper built unit. Some reckon that the action of the keys is not as smooth on the later ones, but that is something that there's absolutely no consensus on.

If you read between the lines however, the 42H1292 is in better condition than the 1391401 is.

[patrickgeekhack]

In a bad mood today?

:frusty:

[ch_123]

I'm pretty sure that the 42H1292s are 2kg vs the 2.2kg for the classic style Model Ms.

Now, I was once about to buy a 1997 Greenock-made 1394950 that was based on the classic style Model M. I'd say that those would probably be made of the same stuff that the old models were.

[ch_123]

In your thread, a guy with a reasonably substantial collection of Model Ms weighed them all and got results consistent with what had been postulated elsewhere. Also, I think Sandy has weighed them... I certainly got my 2.8Kg figure for the Model F from him (confirmed this myself using my bathroom scales... inaccurate, I know...)

[microsoft windows]

Black also shows fingerprints and dust MUCH more.

[timw4mail]

Especially Black key pics taken with a Flash.

Show Image

Those are actually translucent blue, though.

[Rajagra]

So they're trying to force their spellings upon others?

"The English language."
The clue is in the name.
Start using it properly, or we will start charging a license fee for you to use it. :deadhorse:

[microsoft windows]

Fine. I speak American!

[SCTony]

I weighed the plastic cases for a 42H1292 (07/97 Greenock), 92G7453 (11/95), 1391401 (08/89), and F (PC- AT). The scale is a Royal digital postal scale 3lb limit. It weighs a nickle at 5 g. I weighed the top and bottom together, including the feet, even on the F. Here's what I got-









Surprise

[ch_123]

How much the whole keyboards weigh themselves?

[SCTony]

The 42H I weighed at 2020g - cable(68g)= 1952g keyboard
      92G                    2087g - cable(67g)= 2020g keyboard

The F was too much for my scale but on a rougher scale I got 3 lbs 10.5 oz for the switch plate (1658g) + 1065g other= 2723g - cable(272g)=  2451g keyboard.

My 1401 has had rivets replaced with about 50 screws so I can't determine factory weight, but as is, mod screws included, 2276g - cable(207g)= 2069g keyboard.

And for us Americans,

42H= 4.3 pounds keyboard
92G= 4.45 pounds keyboard
1401(modded)= 4.56 pounds keyboard
(AT)F= 5.4 pounds keyboard

[ch_123]

When was your 92G made? They seem to be either 1391401s or 42H1292s depending on when it was made.

[SCTony]

The 92G was made in 11/95. Is very close to the 42H.

[ch_123]

Yeah, I doubt you'd find any differences between the two.

[exia]

So back to the original question, UK or US keyboard? 0.2lb difference make a difference?


(And people weight their keyboards here? You guys need to keep this secret)

[SCTony]

Spot the differences in 42H1292 and 92G7453.
ch_123 got me curious.

[ch_123]

Aside from the labels they are the same. I'd bet if you opened them up they'd be the same too.

First thing you need to know about IBM's product numbers is that the vast majority refer to identical keyboards. There's only a handful of main variants that are unique.
Read and weep

[SCTony]

Yea... and the Scottish put their labels on upside down.:usa: It's hard to see in the photo but the 92G has little chutes for the drainage channels leading into the exit holes.

Woah...that's a lot of model numbers!

[ch_123]

Yeah, I've noted that the Greenock keyboards do not have drainage channels on any of their keyboards. But that's more of an issue of where it was made. I'm sure the Lexmark 42H1292s have drainage channels too.

[ch_123]

I've used a blue label Greenock that had drainage holes, but no channels inside for them. And for just about every picture I've seen of a Greenock board made from 93 onwards, that seems to be the case.

[SCTony]

Hmm... that's only 2 weeks older than mine and 44g difference. Are you weighing only the plastic?- no screws? 2-3% variation?

[microsoft windows]

You have 15 of them? That's enough for a whole computer lab!

[microsoft windows]

Show Image

Look top right - then at the foot - then just below the screw hole.  See the groove?  None of my US made IBM M's have that.  Means your foot is about to fall off!!! And  those drainage channels are da bomb!  :biggrin1:  :usa2:

My measurements were without screws, just the shells.  Two different scales +/-1 g.

That's that Britain gets for switching to the Metric system!

[microsoft windows]

Are you like me and get weird stares when you go to your town library just to check out the Model M's they have on their computers?

[microsoft windows]

I've got my sights set on whenever my town library gets new computers. I'll bring a wheel barrow and fill it up with keyboards.

[SCTony]

Here's a pic of the drainage chute on the 92G-



and the drainage hole on the 42H

[microsoft windows]

I noticed that that British Model M has all-black captions on the number pad. Were they all that way?

[ch_123]

I think it was  common on later Lexmarks too. The '93 Greenock-made 1391406 has the two colour keycaps like the US ones.