Post by: dani_ on Fri, 06 March 2020, 00:48:34
(https://i.imgur.com/VugEl2W.jpg)
Mesa TKL
https://mesakeyboards.com/pages/mesa-tkl (https://mesakeyboards.com/pages/mesa-tkl)
GB Thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109253 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=109253)
Updates
Discord: https://discord.gg/rX7BZhK (https://discord.gg/rX7BZhK)
- April 15, 2020: First prototype is on the way, should arrive first week of May.
- May 3, 2020: Updated renders while I wait for the prototype.
- June 8, 2020: IC Poll posted (https://forms.gle/11criXHgwQPS9qH17)! Prototype assembled and tested, build album (https://imgur.com/a/hUi62Vw), typing test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6tMQifY3Es), water test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDQThcIGav0).
- June 27, 2020: Preliminary pricing and options
- August 2, 2020: Second round of prototypes in production, update layout options
- October 11, 2020: R2 Prototypes complete, final GB details, web store is live (http://mesakeyboards.com), raffle opens Oct. 29!
- October 29, 2020: Raffle is open
- October 31, 2020: Raffle is closed, winners have been notified
Introducing Mesa TKL, a keyboard designed to minimize the height of the first row of switches. I find that switch height is a big determinant in how comfortable I find a keyboard, especially over long typing sessions. To this end, I've opened a slot in the bottom of the case to let the PCB hover just above the desktop. The slot is positioned so that the bottom-most components on the PCB are flush with the bottom face of the case which itself sits on silicone feet 0.5mm above the desktop. The result is that the first row of switches are 0.5mm higher than they would be if you simply laid the PCB/Plate assembly directly on your desktop. I've illustrated this in the image below:
(https://i.imgur.com/j99oqPl.png)
The front height measurement doesn't exactly capture what I'm trying to achieve with this keyboard (as it depends on bezel width, typing angle, sidewall height, &c.) but it can serve as a rough comparison with other keyboards being produced. 19mm-21mm seems to be about standard in the community, so you can expect Mesa to sit approximately 5mm lower than you're used to.
I'm pretty excited about this concept and am eager for feedback so if you're interested please respond with your questions or suggestions.
Specs
Case:
- Typing angle: 8.5deg
- Weight: 2.6kg
- Front height: 14.5mm (including silicone feet)
- Plate mount: PORON gasket
- Sound damping: EVA foam plate-PCB and PCB-case
- Case Material: aluminum with black or white e-coat
- Weight and plate Material: media-blasted stainless-steel
PCB:
- Soldered with ISO support
- QMK/Via firmware
- ESD protection
- No lighting
- USB-C daughter board
Layouts:
(https://i.imgur.com/7VoP0sE.png)
Other Design Considerations
- Plate vibration is dampened at three points to give this keyboard as tight a sound as possible: 20 PORON gaskets mechanically isolate the plate from the case; a foam fill layer sits between the plate and PCB; and two more PORON strips beneath the PCB dampen any residual vibration.
- I don't like heavily branded keyboards so I will not be putting any logos or lettering on the case itself. The exposed portion of the PCB will bear a trademark but that will be the extent of any branding.
- Despite having a low front height, the case is actually quite high-profile: the skirts of Cherry Profile keycaps sit 1.5mm below the surface of the case.
Group Buy Structure
Price: $450 + taxes + shipping
Colors: black or white e-coat
MOQ: 20 each for WK and WKL
Limit: 50 units total
Currently Working On
More (and better) rendersPrototypeInterest check formPrototype from new factoryFinalize options and priceSet GB dateGroup buy begins Oct. 29!
Second Prototypes
Full build album: https://imgur.com/a/z0eRyX9 (https://imgur.com/a/z0eRyX9)
(https://i.imgur.com/5XzuZS5.jpg) (https://imgur.com/a/z0eRyX9)
E-white + Stainless Steel Prototype
(https://i.imgur.com/baP6KJB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/efsvioQ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/s576wnt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jgk3EUL.jpg)
Anodized Black + Brass Prototype
Note: This configuration will not be available in the GB!
It's just here to give you an idea of what the keyboard looks like in black.
The black colorway what will be available is e-black + stainless steel.
It's just here to give you an idea of what the keyboard looks like in black.
The black colorway what will be available is e-black + stainless steel.
(https://i.imgur.com/wD4A3DR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YlPUCaG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eKb374u.jpg)
First Prototype
Typing Test
Water Test
More
Build Album: https://imgur.com/a/hUi62Vw (https://imgur.com/a/hUi62Vw)
(https://i.imgur.com/XUuZxTd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8rUsu15.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pj2Bgs5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/T1AAhxY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Gw5Ib2n.jpg)
Renders
(https://i.imgur.com/pX795oo.png)
More
(https://i.imgur.com/FwHhTL2.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/9qdeb8P.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/oXGIHCT.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/4yh5OR6.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KXMFhyI.png)
Old Renders
More
(https://i.imgur.com/4sv69P7.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/gjOkDpc.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/UpERX93.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GslNPoE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ttHUDws.png)
Post by: xondat on Fri, 06 March 2020, 00:53:05
Will be following and maybe picking one up if it comes into reality.
Post by: 002 DC on Fri, 06 March 2020, 00:53:11
Post by: PikaJoyce on Fri, 06 March 2020, 00:56:42
Example would be putting board in bag and if it gets knocked around, the sockets may come loose.
How do you propose to prevent that from happening?
Post by: tex_live_utility on Fri, 06 March 2020, 01:04:58
Post by: nephlock on Fri, 06 March 2020, 01:17:19
Post by: TheAutoManCan on Fri, 06 March 2020, 01:30:40
Post by: sohju on Fri, 06 March 2020, 01:47:13
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Post by: Exemplar on Fri, 06 March 2020, 02:00:11
Post by: hkiri on Fri, 06 March 2020, 02:08:39
Edit:
Just realized it is a Hotswap PCB. RIP ISO.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 06 March 2020, 05:21:55
Post by: Snapple on Fri, 06 March 2020, 06:06:17
Post by: Dakk1d on Fri, 06 March 2020, 06:31:15
Have to agree with others. Exposed PCB is a pass for me. Either reducing the angle to allow a thin base, or honestly even putting a plastic layer across that section (hopefully transparent!) to keep the case thin at that point but reduce shorting would not be preferable. Still a unique design regardless, and if firm on the opening I wish you luck!
I agree with all of the above. :thumb:
A visible PCB is a cool and unique idea but you should not be able to actually touch it.
Also doesnt a low front height and a higher than standard typing angle kind of contradict each other? With a lower front height i would want a lower angle to be able to keep my wrists straight.
Post by: eniigma on Fri, 06 March 2020, 09:58:06
a couple of things:
-if you're optimizing this for comfort (with the lower front height), why a 8.5 degree angle? seems pretty high
-what is the thickness of the wall in the bottom of the case that has the hole for the PCB? I would be concerned about that being too thin
-if your board is optimized for much flex at all, it's likely gonna hit the table/bottom of case. not sure if this would work, but maybe you could expand the bezels and put like a thin foam sheet in the bottom that'll sit in a lip in the bottom case. that way, I wouldn't be concerned about getting grime inside of the board, and you won't have mispresses if it has flex
other than that, great work! looking forward to seeing where this goes
Post by: Captain Shwah on Fri, 06 March 2020, 10:15:26
This is a neat concept. I'm definitely curious to see how the cutout affects the sound of the bottom rows, especially given that many of us use thick desk pads these days. That flush front with the high back look amazing.
Post by: equalunique on Fri, 06 March 2020, 10:24:11
Edit: Keep the exposed PCB, low profile, & angle.
Post by: The Equals D on Fri, 06 March 2020, 10:31:26
Post by: dani_ on Fri, 06 March 2020, 11:18:48
I have a pretty hectic day today but I plan to go through all of the replies this evening and post a response then.
Post by: kokugatsu on Fri, 06 March 2020, 11:19:36
Post by: alxbrn on Fri, 06 March 2020, 14:44:57
Post by: chits on Fri, 06 March 2020, 14:51:12
Post by: Owl on Fri, 06 March 2020, 19:39:19
Post by: Venatorious on Fri, 06 March 2020, 20:43:02
Post by: dani_ on Sat, 07 March 2020, 00:48:35
Re: exposed PCB
You've expressed a lot of concerns about about the exposed PCB so I'll tackle these first.
1. Short circuiting. I don't see this as a big issue for a few reasons:
a. I can't think of anything under your keyboard conductive enough to cause a short circuit including any deskmat material. Even if you spilled water and shorted the switch contacts it wouldn't harm you keyboard - that's how they work any way :)
b. I'll address it in detail below but the pcb should not flex enough to cause an issue.
c. There are no supply or ground contacts on the exposed portion of the PCB so even if there was an accidental short, it wouldn't do any damage. Worst case, you get a phantom key press.
2. Damage to the PCB. In my experience circuit boards are pretty robust, so the only real danger might be knocking SMT components loose. I can look into moving the switch diodes for the 1st row of switches into the covered part of the case to prevent this so if the final design moves to soldered switches, there will be nothing to knock loose.
I think these are still valid concerns so I will certainly do some testing with one of the extra prototype PCBs to validate my claims. That said, I consider the opening to be a core part of the design and I'm okay with trading some durability for it.
As to adding a covering, I think it defeats the purpose of the keyboard. The PCB/plate gets pushed back up and at that point there are any number of amazing TKLs out there that fit the bill.
Re: hotswap sockets
I've never had any issues with hotswap sockets and I do have a few loose hotswap pcb's knocking around in my bin-o'-parts so I don't anticipate this being an huge issue. Soldered PCB's are much easier to produce so if there is a desire to do so, fine by me! This will for sure make it onto the interest check form.
Re: typing angle
I hear the criticism and concede that having a low front height and relatively steep typing angle flies against conventional ergonomics. However I personally find the combination to be the most comfortable without a wrist rest (just a matter of preference, but I don't like using them). Despite owning a few high-end keyboards, my daily driver remains a now 7-year-old Topre realforce. It's ugly as sin, poorly constructed, and (at the risk of making enemies) feels as though someone poured molasses all over some perfectly good zealios. But with the feet down I think the gemotery is bang-on. Mesa is a bit milder than the realforce at 8.5deg to the Topre's >10deg angle, mostly because I think 8deg is just about perfect for GMK keycaps (the extra 0.5deg give me a bit more clearance for the USB port). Like the opening in the case, I see this as a feature that you're either into or not. Without it though, I think this is just another TKL that doesn't really differentiate itself from big field of amazing keyboards produced by this community.
Re: flex
For obvious reasons this board is not designed to allow any flex. The the gasket mount is strictly for acuostic purposes. The gaskets will be under high compression (hence 12 case screws) and based on my testing should not give more .2mm total. The silicone layer between the PCB and Plate should add a bit rigidity as well. If you really lean on the plate and use a thick deskmat some of the PCB components might make contact but as I mention above, I don't think there are any deskmats conductive enough to cause an issue. Again though, I will absolutely do some stress testing with the prototype.
Re: ISO and Alps PCBs
I don't anticipate enough interest to make these options possible but I'm happy to open source the PCB which you can then modify to your liking.
Re: winkey
WKL is not hugely important to me so it just depends on how much interest there is. I will be certain to put this in the IC form.
Re: case thickness
The bottom of the case is 3mm thick and tapers down to just under 1.5mm thick behind the lip around the opening.
Post by: Zeelobby on Sat, 07 March 2020, 07:39:07
Really hope you go with some covering solution (still think clear acrylic or PC would be the coolest) otherwise from a practicality standpoint this is still a no from me.
Post by: equalunique on Sat, 07 March 2020, 08:09:59
I'm a fan of the 8.5 degree angle.
There's a new TKL IC every month for anyone here who wants a covered PCB & lower angle.
Post by: Zeelobby on Sat, 07 March 2020, 08:58:21
Please keep the lower portion of the PCB exposed. If you cover it, then this is will devolve into yet another TKL kit no more special than any other IC/GB TKL on here. It's obviously not in serious danger even if something does cause a temporary "short" - basically the same effect a normal keypress would have.So the unique feature is something you'll never see and can destroy your PCB... Hard pass. Lol
I'm a fan of the 8.5 degree angle.
There's a new TKL IC every month for anyone here who wants a covered PCB & lower angle.
And it's not keypress shorts people are worried about, but actual component shorts and static discharge. It's why PCBs are insulated. Static discharge into the PCB usually does more than just trigger a switch click.
Fail to see how covering it with a transparent material makes it any less unique. If anything releasing the plate file later for that bit would give people cool color and underglow options.
Post by: dani_ on Sat, 07 March 2020, 11:36:29
Please keep the lower portion of the PCB exposed. If you cover it, then this is will devolve into yet another TKL kit no more special than any other IC/GB TKL on here. It's obviously not in serious danger even if something does cause a temporary "short" - basically the same effect a normal keypress would have.So the unique feature is something you'll never see and can destroy your PCB... Hard pass. Lol
I'm a fan of the 8.5 degree angle.
There's a new TKL IC every month for anyone here who wants a covered PCB & lower angle.
And it's not keypress shorts people are worried about, but actual component shorts and static discharge. It's why PCBs are insulated. Static discharge into the PCB usually does more than just trigger a switch click.
Fail to see how covering it with a transparent material makes it any less unique. If anything releasing the plate file later for that bit would give people cool color and underglow options.
As I mentioned above, there are no sensitive components in the exposed area. The power rails, MCU, crystal, &c. are above the navigation cluster, safely out of the way of any spills. There is also a 4mm lip on the high side of the opening so that you'd have to have pretty serious spill to get liquid in to the case itself.
I don't intend to add a covering because it defeats the main design constraint which is setting the PCB as low as possible. The opening is functional, not an aesthetic feature. Adding a cover would add ~3mm height accounting for clearance, material and fasteners at which point it's not really that much lower than other keyboards. Again, to me the height of the plate/PCB is the main feature.
There's no question that with an open case the PCB is more susceptible than it otherwise would be, but I think permanent damage is an outside risk. I will definitely be testing this once I have prototypes in hand.
I intend to release the plate and PCB anyway so in the event that a PCB is somehow flooded and destroyed, you won't be left high and dry (pun absolutely intended).
Post by: chits on Sat, 07 March 2020, 11:44:30
Post by: Venatorious on Sat, 07 March 2020, 15:44:16
As I mentioned above, there are no sensitive components in the exposed area. The power rails, MCU, crystal, &c. are above the navigation cluster, safely out of the way of any spills. There is also a 4mm lip on the high side of the opening so that you'd have to have pretty serious spill to get liquid in to the case itself.
I don't intend to add a covering because it defeats the main design constraint which is setting the PCB as low as possible. The opening is functional, not an aesthetic feature. Adding a cover would add ~3mm height accounting for clearance, material and fasteners at which point it's not really that much lower than other keyboards. Again, to me the height of the plate/PCB is the main feature.
There's no question that with an open case the PCB is more susceptible than it otherwise would be, but I think permanent damage is an outside risk. I will definitely be testing this once I have prototypes in hand.
I intend to release the plate and PCB anyway so in the event that a PCB is somehow flooded and destroyed, you won't be left high and dry (pun absolutely intended).
That makes sense on the covering add height to the board, now just add in alps and I'm in :)
Post by: Zeelobby on Sat, 07 March 2020, 16:07:56
But it's definitely your vision and I can't fault you for that. Enough people will probably be interested to hit MOQ anyway.
Post by: Nerdbot5000 on Sat, 07 March 2020, 19:27:32
Post by: lush_bunny on Sat, 07 March 2020, 23:14:30
Post by: gnhuy91 on Sat, 07 March 2020, 23:17:37
Post by: Venatorious on Sun, 08 March 2020, 00:36:46
so I heard we need some Alps votes, count me in
Mein brother
Post by: Aquilla on Thu, 12 March 2020, 13:29:43
ISO support would be really nice. I hope there will be many other people too, so we can get that out of the box.
Really interesting how this will turn out though, keep it up.
Post by: dom on Thu, 12 March 2020, 15:02:03
1. Exposed PCB is made for a reason (a nice design choice), I love it, a bit risky as others pointed out, but I don't feel any fear about it (I might be ignorant or just stupid one).
2. No branding, this is also huge for me (doh!), there are lots of designs with "unpleasant" branding, which destroys the entire esthetics for me. Thank you for thinking about the end-user, not only about yourself. Look at the "7V" as an example (fantastic board, with crappy logo - IMO only of course).
3. The badge over the navigation, at least for me this is an unnecessary element, which (as you mentioned) adds complexity and therefore cost. I will never understand the "why" behind elements like this on the boards. Each board should differentiate itself in different ways and not by adding elements, which act as "form over function" delegates.
But hey! 100 people = 100 opinions :D
Respect!
And looking forward to seeing the progress!
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 12 March 2020, 15:38:17
Post by: dom on Thu, 12 March 2020, 15:41:30
Yeah. Some people are all about badging and weights. Some aren't. In the end it's good there's options for both.
Agree! :thumb:
Post by: monteyalps on Thu, 12 March 2020, 16:02:31
Post by: The_Royal on Thu, 12 March 2020, 16:30:13
I love the big move you are doing here. I love exposed PCB designs but I think what would really take this over the top is 3-Things...
1.) Move the switch diodes up into the upper "closed" portion of the case so that just the Hotswap Sockets are exposed.
2.) Castellate the Edges of the PCB as well as the Stabilizer holes so that they are gold/silver plated and aren't just milled FR4.
3.) What if you got in touch with Kailh and inquire about getting Custom Colored(plastic portion) sockets for use on the PCB. That, along with a killer silkscreen, could make for a beautiful and stunning Bottom View of your board.
Just my general thoughts. Good luck with this. I think this is gonna be one hell of a board. :cool:
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 12 March 2020, 16:35:44
My Thoughts/Suggestions:Damn. This man right here took it to 11. Id take all the risks if that was exposed on the bottom.
I love the big move you are doing here. I love exposed PCB designs but I think what would really take this over the top is 3-Things...
1.) Move the switch diodes up into the upper "closed" portion of the case so that just the Hotswap Sockets are exposed.
2.) Castellate the Edges of the PCB as well as the Stabilizer holes so that they are gold/silver plated and aren't just milled FR4.
3.) What if you got in touch with Kailh and inquire about getting Custom Colored(plastic portion) sockets for use on the PCB. That, along with a killer silkscreen, could make for a beautiful and stunning Bottom View of your board.
Just my general thoughts. Good luck with this. I think this is gonna be one hell of a board. :cool:
Post by: lush_bunny on Thu, 12 March 2020, 21:20:51
Post by: Aquilla on Fri, 13 March 2020, 09:02:40
Can we talk color? I’d hate to be impressed by the tests, jump on board, and start saving money only to find out the board won’t have the colors I want. :(
For colors, I think the standards like black/dark grey, light grey and white are a must. Maybe a deep blue and a deep red for starters....
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 13 March 2020, 09:24:17
Post by: FRANCO on Fri, 13 March 2020, 15:10:36
Post by: dani_ on Sat, 14 March 2020, 19:53:00
1. I'm reworking the PCB since moving the bottom row of diodes proved impossible in the previous layout. I hope to be done this weekend with prototypes ordered early next week.
2. I've been getting in touch with a lot of CNC suppliers, pricing out prototypes and various scales of production. I have some promising leads but if anyone has a good recommendation, I'm all ears.
3. Finally, I'd like to spend some time making better renders but I'll do that once the prototype is in-flight since that will take at least a month to complete.
Cheers, stay safe, and don't hoard toilet paper!
Post by: Aquilla on Sun, 15 March 2020, 10:13:27
A quick update on what I've been up to this past week:
1. I'm reworking the PCB since moving the bottom row of diodes proved impossible in the previous layout. I hope to be done this weekend with prototypes ordered early next week.
2. I've been getting in touch with a lot of CNC suppliers, pricing out prototypes and various scales of production. I have some promising leads but if anyone has a good recommendation, I'm all ears.
3. Finally, I'd like to spend some time making better renders but I'll do that once the prototype is in-flight since that will take at least a month to complete.
Cheers, stay safe, and don't hoard toilet paper!
Nice. Make sure to test the prototypes by pressing the escape key. I am having concerns that the far left and right sides dont have enough support and might tilt to the left or right. :) Just a heads-up to watch out for that,
Everything else looks real nice
Post by: kokugatsu on Sun, 15 March 2020, 10:41:21
Post by: The_Royal on Sun, 15 March 2020, 12:08:30
What if you incorporated some sort of thin barrier like a ridged sheet of .05-1mm Of Polyimide (Kapton) that slides in as the bottom window cover?
(https://i.imgur.com/HG6EclZ.jpg)
I have zero issues with fully exposed PCB but some people I know in dryer areas do experience quite a lot of ESD and dust issues with there boards.
Not sure how well it would integrate but I’m just spitballing here.
Post by: dani_ on Sun, 15 March 2020, 22:45:26
Here are some pictures:
(https://i.imgur.com/7xOJwYe.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/0Pf6YL3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/wCcMAal.png)
Post by: lush_bunny on Mon, 16 March 2020, 02:49:38
Taking some inspiration from the J-* keyboards, I've sketched out an idea for covering the PCB using magnets and a thin brass plate. Because there aren't any external fasteners, it only adds ~1mm between the PCB and the desktop. I'm not crazy about it because it adds complexity to the design but I figured I'd float it here anyway. For now I'm going to move ahead with prototyping the case as originally designed with the exposed PCB and we can re-visit this down the line.
Here are some pictures:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/7xOJwYe.png)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/0Pf6YL3.png)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/wCcMAal.png)
Stop I can only get so erect!
The issue of ESD and dust is one that completely slipped my mind, and thanks to The_Royal for bringing this up. Should I ever decide for this board, this would be a welcome addition.
Post by: Venatorious on Mon, 16 March 2020, 10:36:51
Taking some inspiration from the J-* keyboards, I've sketched out an idea for covering the PCB using magnets and a thin brass plate. Because there aren't any external fasteners, it only adds ~1mm between the PCB and the desktop. I'm not crazy about it because it adds complexity to the design but I figured I'd float it here anyway. For now I'm going to move ahead with prototyping the case as originally designed with the exposed PCB and we can re-visit this down the line.
Here are some pictures:
A great compromise that pleases everyone. Nice work :thumb:
Post by: Zeelobby on Mon, 16 March 2020, 10:39:56
Post by: swingkat on Mon, 16 March 2020, 11:53:22
Post by: Aquilla on Mon, 16 March 2020, 12:03:16
Taking some inspiration from the J-* keyboards, I've sketched out an idea for covering the PCB using magnets and a thin brass plate. Because there aren't any external fasteners, it only adds ~1mm between the PCB and the desktop. I'm not crazy about it because it adds complexity to the design but I figured I'd float it here anyway. For now I'm going to move ahead with prototyping the case as originally designed with the exposed PCB and we can re-visit this down the line.
Here are some pictures:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/7xOJwYe.png)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/0Pf6YL3.png)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/wCcMAal.png)
This is it, chief!
Post by: chits on Mon, 16 March 2020, 17:00:50
Post by: monteyalps on Sat, 21 March 2020, 01:33:47
Post by: Nostril on Sat, 21 March 2020, 02:54:57
Taking some inspiration from the J-* keyboards, I've sketched out an idea for covering the PCB using magnets and a thin brass plate. Because there aren't any external fasteners, it only adds ~1mm between the PCB and the desktop. I'm not crazy about it because it adds complexity to the design but I figured I'd float it here anyway. For now I'm going to move ahead with prototyping the case as originally designed with the exposed PCB and we can re-visit this down the line.
I already liked this board/design a lot when it was exposed and was previously in favor of just leaving it exposed, but after seeing this concept, I do prefer the revision. Nice job!
Post by: lootbag on Sun, 22 March 2020, 00:25:46
Post by: ryou965 on Mon, 23 March 2020, 07:13:02
Post by: OverHerb3 on Mon, 23 March 2020, 09:19:45
Post by: Aquilla on Thu, 26 March 2020, 13:37:13
Also, is there a Discord server already?
Would be nice to have.
Post by: Jaltr on Thu, 26 March 2020, 16:53:24
Post by: Aquilla on Tue, 31 March 2020, 09:03:46
Re: ISO and Alps PCBs
I don't anticipate enough interest to make these options possible but I'm happy to open source the PCB which you can then modify to your liking.
If ISO is gonna happen the plate would need to support it as well, keep that in mind. And I sure hope it does happen :)
Post by: dani_ on Thu, 16 April 2020, 23:57:17
tl;dr Prototype to arrive early May, probably not much activity until then.
Unfortunately due to the COVID19 situation I have very little spare time these days so progress has slowed. I am focusing on kicking off tasks that will take a long time to complete like prototyping, and putting off less critical things like making attractive renders. Rest assured, I will not start the group buy until I have the full time I need to devote to it.
I have ordered a first prototype and parts will be trickling in through early May. The only major change to the design is removal of the badge over the nav cluster. In the end it just wasn’t possible to get what I consider to be an acceptably tight fit at a reasonable cost. Otherwise the current design is very close to the renders in the original post. I am still exploring the covered bottom option but that's on hold for now and likely won’t make it into the first round of the group buy.
Thank you all for the support, the feedback has been encouraging. The next step for me is to put some nice renders together and start thinking about finishes and colors, so be on the lookout for those.
3.) What if you got in touch with Kailh and inquire about getting Custom Colored(plastic portion) sockets for use on the PCB. That, along with a killer silkscreen, could make for a beautiful and stunning Bottom View of your board.[/size]
I love this idea and have been discussing it with Kaihua. They can do it but it'll be expensive so I'm going to leave it as a "we'll see" for now.
Is there a already a price floating around? I know it will be an estimate at this point but still.
Also, is there a Discord server already?
Would be nice to have.
I’ve gotten manufacturing quotes that would let me run this as low as $250 a board up through three times that amount. In the end, you get what you pay for. What are you willing to tolerate as far as tool marks, anodizing blemishes, &c.? I’m pretty confident I can reach my quality goals (which, admittedly, are high) at a price between $350 and $400 (shipped in CONUS). If this manufacturer comes through with a good prototype, it may be lower. If freight costs continue to rise, it may go up.
Discord server created (I think?)… https://discord.gg/rX7BZhK. I’m not sure what the protocol is: do we agree in advance on a time to log on and discuss? Or is it more of a free for all? Forgive me for being a little out of touch.
Nice. Make sure to test the prototypes by pressing the escape key. I am having concerns that the far left and right sides dont have enough support and might tilt to the left or right. :) Just a heads-up to watch out for that,
Everything else looks real nice
It's hard to tell from the renders but the brass weight is a bit wider than it looks. Only the Escape and Pause columns are "floating", every other key is supported. I will, of course make sure that everything is stable though and extend the weight if it is not.
Post by: alper_maestro on Fri, 17 April 2020, 06:39:33
As for the Discord channel. Well done! :thumb:
However, some advice.
-Make a 'welcome' topic for only people who have entered the Discord channel, in which no one can comment of course (close topic for comments)
-A separate topic with 'announcements' for when there are updates that you want to share with the community. (close topic for comments)
-Also a topic for 'general' chat concerns Mesa TKL. (just like here on Geekhack, same concept so to speak) > NO VOICE channel for this.
Post by: dani_ on Sun, 03 May 2020, 16:29:45
I've added some updated renders to the main post. I've only just starting learning Blender so these are improving as I figure things out but I think they're passable for now.
The discord server is up and I try to spend some time there every few days so check it out if you more detailed questions or comments.
Meanwhile parts have started arriving. I've got the silicone and foam parts, the PCB will arrive later this week, and I'm still waiting on a status update about the case.
Post by: ecbob on Wed, 06 May 2020, 05:25:00
Post by: dani_ on Sun, 10 May 2020, 17:57:54
What kind of color ways are you looking at?
Colors are undecided so far. The plate and weight will be un-treated brass regardless so any color options will have to match that. Clear/silver and black anodizing are easy and universally popular. E-white might be an option as well, I'm still working that out with the manufacturer.
I'm happy to mock up renders of other color and keycap set combinations on request if you have an idea.
I'm waiting to post a proper IC poll until I have prototype in hand and have had a chance to do some testing and post a thorough writeup. It's a bit behind schedule but I expect to be able to do that within two weeks.
Post by: alper_maestro on Mon, 11 May 2020, 04:52:58
What kind of color ways are you looking at?
Colors are undecided so far. The plate and weight will be un-treated brass regardless so any color options will have to match that. Clear/silver and black anodizing are easy and universally popular. E-white might be an option as well, I'm still working that out with the manufacturer.
I'm happy to mock up renders of other color and keycap set combinations on request if you have an idea.
I'm waiting to post a proper IC poll until I have prototype in hand and have had a chance to do some testing and post a thorough writeup. It's a bit behind schedule but I expect to be able to do that within two weeks.
Will there only be a WKL version?
Post by: werc on Tue, 12 May 2020, 10:43:00
+1 for hotswap; definitely prefer this for flexibility
Post by: dani_ on Thu, 21 May 2020, 12:03:24
Will there only be a WKL version?
[/quote]
This will depend on the poll but I expect there will be enough interest to make both.
Post by: dani_ on Mon, 08 June 2020, 12:49:15
First off, please fill out the poll! The responses will determine what configurations will be available and help me estimate the final cost.
The first prototype is assembled and tested!
The prototype case has finally arrived and despite a slew of manufacturing issues, it has served its purpose in validating the overall design. I will be making some minor adjustments but I believe the case design to be complete. Unless something else comes up, the final product will look exactly as it does in the most recent set of renders.
I’m pretty unhappy with the factory that made this first case so I will be switching manufacturers. Unfortunately this will mean a delay as I order a second prototype. The new manufacturer has a great reputation for making high quality keyboards, however it will be more expensive than I originally planned. As they say, you get what you pay for.
I’ve posted links to a build album (https://imgur.com/a/hUi62Vw), typing video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6tMQifY3Es), and the results of testing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDQThcIGav0) to address the concerns expressed over an exposed PCB. I have been using the keyboard as my daily driver for the past week and I am really pleased with the results. The low height makes it extremely comfortable to type on without a wrist rest. I’m also very happy with the sound profile. Between the foam under the plate and the isolation mount you can hardly tell that there’s an opening in the bottom of the case.
I have made a few changes as a result of testing the prototype:
- The raw brass parts look spectacular for about 24 hours and then they tarnish pretty badly. The new manufacturer assures me that the brass parts will be oiled so I’ll see how that goes before turning to other options. I tried finishing wax on this prototype and the results were okay. Polished stainless steel is also a possibility but that does increase the cost (and would require re-working the USB port to make it flush rather than recessed.)
- I’ve changed the plate damping layer to foam rather than silicone rubber. The silicone would require injection molding or casting which are well outside the scope of this project. The foam plate damper is a hair thicker than the silicone fill I designed so I may raise the case by half a millimeter or so to account for it.
- I’ve chosen to use poron rather than silicone rubber for the gaskets as it provides noticeably better isolation.
- I may remove the foam layer between the PCB and the bottom of the case because it has a pretty minimal effect on the overall acoustics. With the hot-swap sockets it servers a secondary purpose of keeping the PCB tight to plate but if I go the soldered route, it’s pretty necessary.
No covered option
After much consideration and testing a few different possibilities, I have decided not to offer a covered option for the bottom of the case. There are lot of technical reasons for this which I’m happy to discuss in a separate thread but ultimately it comes down to a conflict with the main design goal of lowering the plate as much as possible. Based on my stress testing I think fears about damage to the exposed PCB are overblown. There are very few scenarios that result in damage to Mesa but not a traditional, fully-enclosed keyboard. If you’re really planning to put your keyboard through the wringer, you should probably consider a different one. (This not meant to be exclusionary - design is all about trade-offs you and have to decide what’s important for your use case.)
Colors
Ultimately the available color-ways will decided by the poll. I really like the way the clear anodizing turned out, especially with the brass weight. This manufacturer offers e-white which would look also great with raw brass. I’ve added some renders below with some other color ideas. I really like the way the under-saturated colors keep the metallic texture of the aluminum so I’ll order some color chips to see if they can make that happen.
More
(https://i.imgur.com/S0fhWNs.png)
Black anodizing + brass weight
(https://i.imgur.com/67GmDJG.png)
E-white + brass weight
(https://i.imgur.com/cHixTje.png)
Peach anodizing + stainless steel weight
(https://i.imgur.com/UdNtklE.png)
Teal anodizing + stainless steel weight
(https://i.imgur.com/7M2B97J.png)
Lilac anodizing + stainless steel weight
Group buy
My current plan is to ship 20 keyboards. There is some flexibility in this number but it seems to be the sweet spot between cost, risk, and what I can manage by myself. If after the IC poll it seems like there is significantly more interest than this, I will explore other options such as working with a vendor.
Prototype Commissions
I’ve accepted a couple of prototype commissions (i.e., I add a unit for you to my prototype order) from family/close friends and am considering opening this up as theoretically I have capacity for two more. Let me be absolutely clear: this is a high-risk, high-cost proposition! You would be paying more than the GB price for a board whose quality I cannot guarantee (since I have not worked with this manufacturer before!) The upshot is you would get your board much sooner and in whatever color/material combination you’d want since they’re one-offs anyway. If you’re interested, send me a private message.
Next Steps
1. Collect the results of the IC poll
2. Make adjustments as necessary
3. Put in an order for the second prototype, color chips
4. Pricing
5. Set a GB date.
Until next time
The COVID lockdown is easing here in California and childcare resumes this week (thank goodness) so I’ll be more active again going forward.
Post by: Tyson on Mon, 08 June 2020, 18:03:25
Post by: alper_maestro on Tue, 09 June 2020, 03:43:15
Post by: VXQN on Tue, 09 June 2020, 04:15:00
Post by: melikewater on Tue, 09 June 2020, 16:47:00
Post by: dani_ on Tue, 09 June 2020, 18:57:15
Is the discord link broken? I havent been able to join for awhile.
Yes, sorry! This is the link: https://discord.gg/rX7BZhK (https://discord.gg/rX7BZhK)
Fixed in the main post as well.
Post by: dani_ on Sat, 27 June 2020, 17:29:19
Price: $450
MOQ: 20
Limit: none
- TKL only (no WKL option)
- Soldered PCB only w/ ISO support
- colors: e-white, clear anodizing, black anodizing
- Sand/blasted and oiled brass weight and plate
I’m sure there are a lot of questions so I’ll explain my choices below:
Cost
The change in manufacturer added nearly $100 per board in machining costs. It turns out that quality manufacturing and especially finishing are expensive, even in China. I’m simply not taking any chances on this. I’ve chosen a reputable manufacturer that understands the expectations for high-end keyboards and the cost reflects that.
On top of that, there is a (at least for now) 15% tariff on keyboards and keyboard parts manufactured in China. I’m still working through the details to see if there’s a (legal!) way around this but so far it doesn’t look like it and it adds just under $50 to the final cost.
All in, my costs are about $400 per board. This includes materials, manufacturing, freight (to me), packaging, and auxiliary costs like e-commerce transaction fees. On top of that I will be charging $50 per board as my margin. This money will be put aside to deal with manufacturing and logistical issues as they arise. If everything goes smoothly, it will go towards offsetting some of my prototyping costs (which are nearing $1500 at this point).
I know $450 is a lot of money for a keyboard, especially from a first time GB runner, but in my view this is the only way to make it work. So I’m going to move forward with round two prototypes this weekend and when it comes time to run the GB either we reach MOQ or we don’t.
MOQ/Limits
Based the poll results I’m expecting between 20 and 25 orders so all of the pricing is based on an MOQ of 20. Because of this I’m not to concerned with setting an upper limit on orders. If there is a swell of interest before the GB starts, I’ll revisit this.
Options
This was tricky because the results are very evenly split along almost every parameter. In the end, after slicing the poll results every which way, I think these options have the highest likelihood of meeting MOQ and getting made. Annoyingly, most of my preferences lost out (WKL and hot-swap) so I’m considering making those options available as add-ons but they would be pretty expensive do to the low volume.
I’m sorry I don’t have better news for you on the pricing front - I had really hoped to keep the board under $400. On the bright side, I’ve been using the prototype for a few weeks now and, despite the abysmal machining quality, I have to say I'm really liking it. I'm excited to see what this new manufacturer can do and at the prospect of sharing this board with you all. Hopefully the higher than expected price doesn’t put this board out of reach for too many people.
I’m going to post some updated renders to reflect the boards that will be offered in the group buy. Thanks to those that commissioned prototypes, I am expecting to have photos of each configuration offered.
That's all for now, stay safe out there.
Post by: Tyson on Sat, 27 June 2020, 17:33:17
Post by: Jyobah on Sat, 27 June 2020, 18:36:13
Post by: gnhuy91 on Sat, 27 June 2020, 19:49:20
Post by: dani_ on Sun, 28 June 2020, 11:25:51
RIP no WKL, I'm out.
I just mentioned this in the discord but I'll post it here to because I think it's important:
I still really want to make WKL available, especially because that’s my preference, and I think there are a few ways to do it. However I do not want any more price increases so if it comes down to it, the less popular configuration will pay the difference and right now that is WKL.
I am thrilled this will be a GB soon. Very nicely done with the updates and transparent about your cost per board and why the prices are the way they are.
Thank you - it's a lot of money and you have a right to know exactly what your spending it on!
Post by: DarkShot on Thu, 30 July 2020, 15:50:31
Post by: tempo on Thu, 30 July 2020, 19:58:57
Post by: Anthixious on Thu, 30 July 2020, 23:27:30
Consider me interested! Any more colors?
Post by: PotatoTM on Fri, 31 July 2020, 02:16:27
Post by: beekey on Fri, 31 July 2020, 02:57:28
Post by: dani_ on Sun, 02 August 2020, 11:45:23
I've also ordered more PCB prototypes since I've completely re-designed it based on feedback from the poll. It will be soldered with support for ISO, stepped caps, split right shift, and split backspace (I've added a layout graphic to the main post). I've also moved to the C3 version of ai03's universal daughterboard which has better circuit protections than my original design. Finally I've changed the soldermask to black after seeing some cosmetic issues with the white.
Logistics-wise I'm nearly ready to go with some packaging samples in the works. Assuming everything is good with the various prototypes, I'd like to start the GB in October. Due to some miscommunication with the manufacturer around minimum quantities I'm going to have to re-think the options on offer. WK+black/silver are pretty safe since it looks like these will easily meet MOQ. The big decision is if/whether to offer an e-white option or a WKL option with its own MOQ.
Any more colors?
Unfortunately no.
Looking forward to how it'll turn out, I noticed the IC poll didn't include any questions about the thin piece of brass to cover the PCB, has a decision been taken in regards to that?
There will be no cover on the bottom of the case - the first ~20mm of PCB are exposed on the bottom. There are no SMT components exposed and no power supply traces in the exposed portion so it's my view that it's totally safe but obviously it's a decision for everyone to make on their own.
Is there an overview with the supported layouts? I hope for split backspace...
Just added this to the main post. Split backspace will be supported.
Post by: Anthixious on Tue, 04 August 2020, 03:49:24
First off, thank you all for responding to the poll. If you haven’t done so yet please do, I’m checking the responses every few days as they trickle in. I’ve used the results to simulate the group buy with many different constraints and assumptions (I’m a software engineer, I can’t help myself) and this is the configuration that results in the most orders:
Price: $450
MOQ: 20
Limit: none
- TKL only (no WKL option)
- Soldered PCB only w/ ISO support
- colors: e-white, clear anodizing, black anodizing
- Sand/blasted and oiled brass weight and plate
I’m sure there are a lot of questions so I’ll explain my choices below:
Cost
The change in manufacturer added nearly $100 per board in machining costs. It turns out that quality manufacturing and especially finishing are expensive, even in China. I’m simply not taking any chances on this. I’ve chosen a reputable manufacturer that understands the expectations for high-end keyboards and the cost reflects that.
On top of that, there is a (at least for now) 15% tariff on keyboards and keyboard parts manufactured in China. I’m still working through the details to see if there’s a (legal!) way around this but so far it doesn’t look like it and it adds just under $50 to the final cost.
All in, my costs are about $400 per board. This includes materials, manufacturing, freight (to me), packaging, and auxiliary costs like e-commerce transaction fees. On top of that I will be charging $50 per board as my margin. This money will be put aside to deal with manufacturing and logistical issues as they arise. If everything goes smoothly, it will go towards offsetting some of my prototyping costs (which are nearing $1500 at this point).
I know $450 is a lot of money for a keyboard, especially from a first time GB runner, but in my view this is the only way to make it work. So I’m going to move forward with round two prototypes this weekend and when it comes time to run the GB either we reach MOQ or we don’t.
MOQ/Limits
Based the poll results I’m expecting between 20 and 25 orders so all of the pricing is based on an MOQ of 20. Because of this I’m not to concerned with setting an upper limit on orders. If there is a swell of interest before the GB starts, I’ll revisit this.
Options
This was tricky because the results are very evenly split along almost every parameter. In the end, after slicing the poll results every which way, I think these options have the highest likelihood of meeting MOQ and getting made. Annoyingly, most of my preferences lost out (WKL and hot-swap) so I’m considering making those options available as add-ons but they would be pretty expensive do to the low volume.
I’m sorry I don’t have better news for you on the pricing front - I had really hoped to keep the board under $400. On the bright side, I’ve been using the prototype for a few weeks now and, despite the abysmal machining quality, I have to say I'm really liking it. I'm excited to see what this new manufacturer can do and at the prospect of sharing this board with you all. Hopefully the higher than expected price doesn’t put this board out of reach for too many people.
I’m going to post some updated renders to reflect the boards that will be offered in the group buy. Thanks to those that commissioned prototypes, I am expecting to have photos of each configuration offered.
That's all for now, stay safe out there.
Whether or not a WKL version makes it into the final list of specs, I'm looking forward to this board regardless. This is one board that I plan on owning and being happy with. I'm glad you chose a manufacturer that understands everything a board needs in order to look and feel high quality. Pretty much no upper limit on this GB I'm very happy with, and I'm interested in a hot-swap option as well. Only thing I'm kind of feeling lonesome about is that I'd love to see a dark emerald green choice, but it's understandable if it doesn't end up as a final color. Looking forward to seeing how this board turns out.
Post by: Anthixious on Tue, 04 August 2020, 03:50:26
Taking some inspiration from the J-* keyboards, I've sketched out an idea for covering the PCB using magnets and a thin brass plate. Because there aren't any external fasteners, it only adds ~1mm between the PCB and the desktop. I'm not crazy about it because it adds complexity to the design but I figured I'd float it here anyway. For now I'm going to move ahead with prototyping the case as originally designed with the exposed PCB and we can re-visit this down the line.
I'm also in support of this option :thumb:
Post by: hottrout on Wed, 05 August 2020, 05:45:10
Post by: dibstern on Sat, 15 August 2020, 23:56:47
Post by: dani_ on Sun, 16 August 2020, 18:39:32
Taking some inspiration from the J-* keyboards, I've sketched out an idea for covering the PCB using magnets and a thin brass plate. Because there aren't any external fasteners, it only adds ~1mm between the PCB and the desktop. I'm not crazy about it because it adds complexity to the design but I figured I'd float it here anyway. For now I'm going to move ahead with prototyping the case as originally designed with the exposed PCB and we can re-visit this down the line.
I'm also in support of this option :thumb:
I've abandoned this for a number of reasons scattered around the thread but I'll update the main post for clarity. I'm glad you like the board, thanks for the feedback!
Possible for a white WK version? I'm not sure why no one seems to be making one even though the demand for them is sky high
Possible but as of right now unlikely. I can't speak for other GB runners but I will share my reasoning. I will be offering two combinations of layout+color based on likelihood of meeting MOQ. Due to manufacturing limitations I can select either two anodizing colors or one e-coat color per production run. So in order to be made, the demand for a configuration with e-white has to outweigh the demand for the next two (anodizing) color choices combined.
Post by: parablol on Sun, 16 August 2020, 20:00:30
I wish there was Tsangan-style layout that included split space. Nothing like that exists AFAIK.
Post by: dani_ on Mon, 12 October 2020, 01:54:30
Here's the last big update for this project before the GB goes live!
To quickly re-cap the last two months: the second round of case and PCB prototypes turned out great, the commissioned prototypes were delivered, and I’ve been working on setting up the business side of things. (Oh, and we welcomed a new baby so I haven't slept since August...) Check the top post for the updated photos and build log. Everything’s pretty much ready to go so without any further ado, here are the details:
The group buy will be limited to 50 units and spots will be decided by a raffle which will open on October 29th. The raffle will run for a week, at which point I’ll send out invoices, take payment through my fancy new online store (http://mesakeyboards.com), and get production rolling.
The following configurations will be on offer, each with its own separate MOQ:
- Standard Layout (MOQ: 20)
- Winkeyless Layout (MOQ: 20)
- Option of black or white e-coat finish with either layout
Apart from that:
- The weight and plate will be sand-blasted stainless steel
- The PCB will be black, soldered (not hot-swap!) with support for ISO, stepped caps, split shift/backspace
- The final price will be $450 + plus shipping + local taxes
Note that there will be no support for:
- ALPS
- ANSI/6.25U spacebar bottom row
- Hot swap
- Cover/window for exposed portion of PCB
The final kit will be nearly identical to the round 2 prototype pictured in the new build log. The following are the differences:
I’ve changed the silicone foot pads to domed bumpers
Why: the domes provide better isolation and are more stable on uneven surfaces
The weight will be available in sand-blasted SS only
Why: the weight part has proven difficult to machine reliably and I’ve been getting more consistent results with the SS. Also, the SS is much less prone to tarnish and discoloration than the brass.
E-coat rather than anodizing
Why: the e-coat adheres better to the sharp corners than anodizing pigment for a more consistently even finish. I’ve worked with the manufacturer to offer a black option alongside the white.
The actual front height measurement is now approximately 14.5mm (depends on the compression in the bumper feet)
Why: I’ve made small allowances for flex in the PCB. This is about a business-card-thickness taller than originally planned, but obviously still quite low.
Replaced the foam pad under the PCB with strips
Why: Out of an abundance of caution, I don’t want any foam putting pressure on SMD components
PCB panelization changed
Why: moved the breakaway tabs so that they are not visible through the slot in the bottom
Add ultra-low profile screws for spacebar stab
Why: These screws will be included to replace the standard stabilizer screws so that they don’t protrude from the case.
I expected fulfillment to take 4-6 months but I’m not going to commit to a timeline. My experience with the lineup of suppliers has been great so far so I have no reason to expect delays but once I place the orders it is completely out of my hands and the parts arrive when they arrive.
I think that’s everything for now. If you have any question or if there’s anything you’d like to see (specific photo, video, measurement, &c.) please let me know so that I can post it before the raffle opens.
Cheers!
Post by: apexshikari on Mon, 12 October 2020, 02:07:16
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: dani_ on Sat, 17 October 2020, 16:47:53
Is the PCB exposed through the bottom of the case?
Yes, the bottom row of switches is exposed through the bottom of the case. There is no window or covering despite some discussion to that effect earlier in the IC. I have already laid out my case as to why I don't think this is an issue so please read through my previous posts in the thread (hint: mine are the really long ones) before deciding if this board is for you.
Can I purchase multiple boards?
If all 50 spots are filled in the raffle, I will limit one board per buyer. I will add a multiple boards option to the raffle form and if there are spots left over I'll contact those people interested in multiple boards to work something out.
Extra plates, PCBs?
Yes! You can purchase extra PCBs, plates, and plate-pcb foam. You can already see these items in the store at mesakeyboards.com (http://mesakeyboards.com) (though the prices might change a bit as I'm waiting for a few final quotes to come in).
How does e-black differ from black anodizing?
Anodizing is a dyeing process and e-coating is a painting process (similar to powder coating). In black, both finishes will look very similar since they don't reflect much light anyway but the e-coat will be slightly smoother and less metallic. I don't have an e-black sample on hand to show you but googling `site:geekhack.org e-black` will give you plenty of examples. The Leaf 60 GB thread has some high quality examples: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99002.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99002.0).
Post by: dani_ on Thu, 29 October 2020, 21:08:47
Good luck and as always contact me with any questions.
Post by: hottrout on Fri, 30 October 2020, 03:32:28
Post by: dani_ on Mon, 09 November 2020, 23:50:58
I've messaged a few times about the [GB] post with no response - please let me know if you're waiting on anything from me before approving.
Post by: Tyson on Tue, 10 November 2020, 01:38:53
Mods-
I've messaged a few times about the [GB] post with no response - please let me know if you're waiting on anything from me before approving.
Report the GB post asking for approval. That will get it approved. Otherwise they don't always see it.