Author Topic: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process  (Read 45689 times)

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Offline kurplop

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The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 00:58:15 »
This is the beginning of what is hopefully about a 2 month thread, detailing the completion of my latest project.
86679-0 86681-186683-2
I decided to test my patience and improving skill on a mill by taking a 10 lb. chunk of 6061 aluminum and making about 9.25 lb. of shavings leaving me with a sleek housing for a keyboard loosely based on the ErgoDox and once again integrating a Slimblade trackball. Repeating this fundamental combination attests to my overall satisfaction with having a large trackball set between a split keyboard.

My objective is to make a semi portable keyboard that shares the basic layout as my desktop setup. An earlier iteration aka 'The ErgoPlop', unfortunately had to be renamed the ErgoFlop. While there were many things that worked well on it, its execution seemed to fall between two stools; most notably, the 20+ degrees of tenting simply made it too tall to be portable and the smaller trackball just didn't feel right after being spoiled by a larger one.

Some of the design features include, using Cherry ML switches because of their smaller profile, of course the Slimblade, centered between the keyboard halves, repeating the use of modified arcade buttons for mouse functions and reducing the keyboard to 62 keys, actually 64 because the two arcade buttons above the trackball are keyboard commands.

The keyboard measures 7.5" high by 13.25" wide by 1.5" high to the highest keys (less trackball). The one piece aluminum chassis is covered beneath with a 3/8" walnut baseplate rabbeted into it. The ML switches are PCB mounted only, so I designed and home etched a flawed prototype PCB that can be partly seen through the thumb pockets. I made some mistakes in the design but drilled it out to confirm various dimensions and key location. I have since corrected the design (hopefully) and will be printing the new ones soon. I used the laser printer toner method to mask the copper I wanted to remain, then burned off the exposed copper with ferric chloride. I think the process worked pretty well but it is obviously not the quality of a professionally produced PCB.

Completed photo log here.   https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157651718823173
« Last Edit: Tue, 19 April 2016, 17:51:14 by kurplop »

Offline Findecanor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 01:36:38 »
I decided to test my patience and improving skill on a mill by taking a 10 lb. chunk of 6061 aluminum and making about 9.25 lb. of shavings leaving me with a sleek housing for a keyboard ...
Milled?  :eek: I thought that it was a piece of sheet metal that you had pressed.

Offline hoggy

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 02:37:55 »
Wow.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 02:44:32 »
That looks amazing but not sure I'd call it portable!
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Offline JaccoW

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 03:41:37 »
I decided to test my patience and improving skill on a mill by taking a 10 lb. chunk of 6061 aluminum and making about 9.25 lb. of shavings leaving me with a sleek housing for a keyboard ...
Milled?  :eek: I thought that it was a piece of sheet metal that you had pressed.
Same here. Looks great though!
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Offline Oobly

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 04:11:33 »
Beautiful work, kurplop! Very nicely finished piece of aluminium and I like the overall design a lot. Would be at home on a spaceship console, too. Looks fantastic!

I'd certainly consider it portable if you take the ball out when moving it around. I find it a bit sad you lowered the angle, but if it needs to be like that for your requirements, then that's how it needs to be, as long as it's still comfortable to use. It's still a vast improvement ergonomically over non-tented, qwerty boards and even the 'Dox. :)

I'm considering using ML switches for my latest project, too. From what I've read they feel kinda similar to my favourite MX switches (ErgoClears) or perhaps somewhere between Browns and ErgoClears once they're lubed. Apparently SP can do doubleshot ABS ML keycaps, too :)
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 20:43:08 »
I think the revised trace drawings are just about done. I will check things over one more time. I'm sure I will discover a few more problems, then some laser copies to be transferred to the blank pcb's.
 * ergoploped out_auto_save_bak-ml design.pdf (531.73 kB - downloaded 396 times.)
I tried to figure out how Kicad works but gave up and decided to draw my own traces.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:04:50 »
Looks totally awesome! Great work!

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 07:27:46 »
Nice.  Job.
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Offline kittykatmax

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 27 January 2015, 15:03:39 »
As always, your work is just...WOW. :)
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Offline Larken

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 29 January 2015, 07:12:20 »
will be following this with great interest, as usual :D
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Offline Joey Quinn

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 29 January 2015, 18:28:38 »
Is there any chance of an mx version, I'd be down to buy one of these.
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Offline ideus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 29 January 2015, 18:44:36 »

Awesome milling work, as a product it would not be that productive though. Too much material removed, but as a prototype is understandable.

The aluminum would serve as a plate too, instead of being just the frame of the keycaps, ala GON style.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 29 January 2015, 21:10:44 »
Thanks everybody for the encouraging words and for following this thread.

I hope to burn the pcb's tonight and drill them out tomorrow.

I haven't yet decided how I should finish the aluminum. This weekend I hope to experiment with different anodizing techniques. I'm torn between a clear anodization in either a glossy or brushed texture or dyeing it before sealing it. I made nine small aluminum samples that I hope to test different options on. To complicate the decision more, I have a choice of black or grey keycaps and also a black or burgundy trackball. I will gladly accept any opinions.

Is there any chance of an mx version, I'd be down to buy one of these.

I chose the ML switch because its small size is a real advantage for a portable keyboard. I hope to next make a desktop version that will likely have either Matias or Cherry MX switches. I was considering making moulds from the prototypes and casting resin shells if anyone was interested in making one.


Awesome milling work, as a product it would not be that productive though. Too much material removed, but as a prototype is understandable.


Yeah, it's almost sinful the amount of aluminum I turned into shavings. If it's any consolation they will be recycled. I was even toying with the idea of making a crucible and melting it down to try casting something with it, although I've heard that cast aluminum is usually not best made with a 6061 alloy.


The aluminum would serve as a plate too, instead of being just the frame of the keycaps, ala GON style.

I would have, but the ML switches aren't made to be mounted in a plate. I tried to make one out of wood a few months ago and even though the switches fit well in the pockets there is no mechanism in the switch to lock it into the plate. Short of glueing them in place, it would still require a pcb to make everything stay put.  If I make one with MX's I will certainly integrate a plate into the body.

Thanks for the comments.





Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 31 January 2015, 10:50:30 »
I etched the pcb's last night and fitted and trimmed them to fit where they belong, so I thought I'd take a few pictures.

The pcb's with the toner on before etching.
89233-0

I taped a piece of acetate with the cap location on the pcb to properly align the board for trimming.
89235-1

A few more shots in front of the plans. Yep, it's pretty much like it I planned. Just a few minor changes.
89237-2

I was able to sand out a prick punch mark between the 2 upper arcade buttons (see earlier pictures). What a relief! I also drilled out the holes for the 3 LED's that will indicate caps lock and layer locks. I have some time today to experiment with anodizing. Hopefully all will go well and I can anodize the case tomorrow; which means it will more likely be next weekend.
« Last Edit: Sat, 31 January 2015, 10:53:37 by kurplop »

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 31 January 2015, 22:13:34 »
I managed to make a few sample colors and clean up the case a bit. I hope to anodize it tomorrow but am not sure yet if I'm going to dye it.

Here are some samples I made today along with my keycap color options. What do you think?
89353-0

I may not dye it if the natural aluminum looks good after anodizing. I'm concerned the several steps involved may change the look for the worse.
89355-1

Just a picture to show how small the alumaplop is. I apologize for not washing my hands before taking the picture. Not your typical geek hand I suppose. ;D
89357-2

Offline Lain1911

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 31 January 2015, 22:15:49 »
Impressive hand.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 01:52:58 »
You should see the other one.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 02:39:22 »
I really love those technical drawings in the background. :)

Offline Asininity

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 01 February 2015, 23:42:07 »
This is absolutely brilliant. I love it!

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 02 February 2015, 00:49:34 »
Well, it's been a productive weekend in keyboard land. I took the plunge and decided to dye the anodize black after my wife told me that the red color looked a bit too feminine.

Here it is taking the dip.
89478-089480-1

And here are the colors I decided on.
89482-289484-3

Next step is to drill out the holes in the pcb's and begin wiring up everything. :)

Offline hoggy

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 03 February 2015, 23:14:56 »
Wow!  It looks amazing.  Looking forward to seeing the finished board.
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Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 15 February 2015, 09:30:09 »
I was off a couple of thousands on the placement of the hole in the shell for the usb receptacle to fit into, so I made a trim piece to hide the misalignment.
90828-0

I decided to use a detachable cable so I could swap them for different uses.
90830-1

I am using standard size USB plugs. In spite of the higher cycle life of the mini and micro plugs, I went with the standard size because my somewhat numb and clumsy fingers can handle them better. Also, I broke protocol by going  with A to A cable plugs.
90832-2

There's still a lot to do. It's been quite a learning experience.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 15 February 2015, 09:36:09 »
That looks amazing

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 15 February 2015, 10:24:46 »
That looks amazing

Thanks. I'm very happy with how its looking; Of course I'm a bit partial.  I'm going for a neat, professional, not overdone look. As much as I liked the polished aluminum, I think it would have stood out too much. When I tape everything together to get a feel of how typing with it will be, I get pretty excited. I think it will be comfortable and fast with the shorter switch action.

When I began soldering up the switches I discovered I made a major blunder in my design. I placed the SMD pads on the top of the PCB in the way of the switches. I got confused by all of the reverse thinking necessary when making the reverse image transfers. I decided to hack it together with through hole diodes. The change required drilling a lot of holes, some accidentally cut through traces on the other side, trimming away copper in areas to avoid shorts and repairing all of the damage. Not a pretty sight. I also put the IO expander in backwards. I decided it best to get it together and working then make new boards hopefully benefitting from my mistakes.

90840-0

Also visible is the USB receptacle soldered to the PCB. I was wondering how I would attach it and it worked out well. It is in a good location and is rock solid.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 15 February 2015, 10:44:43 »
When I made my Qazpad I made so many mistakes in the design.  Parts wired backwards.  Traces to ground missing.  I had to ugly up the boards quite a bit to get it working.  It's a learning experience!

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 22 February 2015, 19:23:25 »
I spent most of the last 2 weeks redesigning the pcb's. Today I had time to print the design out; I bought a cheap laser printer this week which sure beats going to Staples to have copies made.

I printed the trace patterns on brochure paper. My wife's light table sure helped lining up the opposing sides.
91640-0

After transferring the toner to the pcb's with an iron, the pcb's took a warm bath to loosen up the paper. The back half of the paper came off pretty easily.
91642-1

The remaining paper had to be rubbed off. It took some care to remove all of the paper between the traces. I did leave some small paper residue over the toner because I was concerned the scrubbing might remove some of the toner.
91644-2

After etching the copper with ferric chloride I painted the tops of the pcb's where they will be seen between the keycaps. They are now taped together so I can drill out most of the holes in pairs.
91646-3

Goofing up on the earlier boards forced me to design much better trace paths. I had originally put the row traces on one side and the column traces on the other, thinking it would be less confusing and provide more room for things to fit. However, by taking advantage of the ML switch's bridging feature, it was actually easier to keep most of the traces on the underside.

These boards also turned out much better than the earlier ones. The traces are crisp, I only had to touch up a few spots with a Sharpie where the toner didn't adhere completely and I spent a lot of time cleaning up my drawings.   
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 February 2015, 19:27:01 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 01:35:38 »
That has to be the sleekest, most professional 3D ergo keyboard ever made. Incredible work.

Offline Oobly

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 02:37:54 »
This project is fantastic! Loving the way the USB slot looks with the little bezel added, I'd say it's better than if it had been correctly aligned in the first place.

The PCB's are looking good, too. I've also had some success with laser printing on sections of baking sheets. They are impregnated with silicone so the ink comes off easily at the ironing step. You can also tell if you've ironed enough when the colour starts to change, and they can handle more heat than most paper types. I use tape to hold them to a sheet of standard paper for the printing since they're too thin to go through the printer properly on their own. There's also Press 'n Peel Blue transfer film designed for exactly this purpose (http://www.dipmicro.com/store/PNPB).

I'll be making some PCB's for my latest project also with ML switches in a similar manner. I like that you can use a single-sided PCB when using the ML switches that have the jumper inside :) I'm most worried about the drilling, though, since I'll have to use a handheld Dremel and the switches need the holes quite precise since there's no plate. Are you using 18mm spacing? IMHO it matters more on a standard layout and in fact 18mm spacing may be better on this type of board, but I found the standard ML spacing a bit cramped on my design (mostly standard QWERTY layout), so I'll be trying 18.5mm.

Great job, kurplop! Keep up the good work. I'd love to see a video when this is done :) I loved the polished aluminium look, but the darker colour does look more business-like and professional.

P.S.- I've found it's much easier to open ML switches when they're loose, so if you want to lube them it's best to do it before mounting them. Lubing makes a big difference to how they feel on off-axis hits.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:02:16 »
When I made my Qazpad I made so many mistakes in the design.  Parts wired backwards.  Traces to ground missing.  I had to ugly up the boards quite a bit to get it working.  It's a learning experience!

I just checked out your Qazpad. Now I know what my next project will be. Great collection, by the way.

That has to be the sleekest, most professional 3D ergo keyboard ever made. Incredible work.
Thanks. I'm glad you're still around. I haven't heard from you in a while.

Oobly–  Yes, I am keeping the standard ML spacing although I know it is a bit of a compromise.  My earlier experiments found a 0.65" vertical pitch and a 0.75" horizontal pitch to be the ideal spacing for me but the convenience of using the standard ML 0.70" spacing overruled it. It feels a bit tight compared to std. layouts but is still fine and I think I can adapt to it. I am considering the .75/.65 spacing later. It may be possible to trim the caps slightly to clear and the extra .05"  horizontal gap may not look bad. There is always casting custom caps too; the small ML footprint allows for many options.

Thanks for the baking sheet tip. Could you elaborate further on it?  I did buy a Brothers printer so the Press and Peel Blue Transfer method won't work since it specifically advises against The Brother because of the higher melt temperature of its toner.

I'm afraid to take apart the ML switches to lube because of the risk of damaging them. Yes I tried. I'm not that great with small motor functions. I did find that just externally lubing the stem ways did help greatly without all of the work.

I loved the polished aluminium look, but the darker colour does look more business-like and professional.
Ditto. :(

« Last Edit: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:05:42 by kurplop »

Offline Moralless

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:07:22 »
Just saw this, and amazing work so far kurplop :thumb:
Just wondering if you anodised it yourself with a homemade setup or did you have access to a place where you could go do it yourself?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:07:47 »
This progress looks amazing kurplop! I'm going to ask you so many questions about etching PCBs when I'm ready to make my own :).

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:33:41 »
Just saw this, and amazing work so far kurplop :thumb:
Just wondering if you anodised it yourself with a homemade setup or did you have access to a place where you could go do it yourself?

I put together my own set up for anodizing. It cost about $400.00 for the power supply, misc. containers, and chemicals. If you plan on doing just one project you might consider other options because of the cost and leftover supplies, but it was surprisingly easy to do if you follow the instructions.

This progress looks amazing kurplop! I'm going to ask you so many questions about etching PCBs when I'm ready to make my own :).
I probably know more about how not to make PCB's, but am happy to offer what I can.


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:34:59 »
Wait a second...did I miss something?? You can tell me how to do PCBs AND anodize things??! I need to reread this thread!

Kurplop <3

Offline Moralless

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 07:45:08 »
Just saw this, and amazing work so far kurplop :thumb:
Just wondering if you anodised it yourself with a homemade setup or did you have access to a place where you could go do it yourself?

I put together my own set up for anodizing. It cost about $400.00 for the power supply, misc. containers, and chemicals. If you plan on doing just one project you might consider other options because of the cost and leftover supplies, but it was surprisingly easy to do if you follow the instructions.

This progress looks amazing kurplop! I'm going to ask you so many questions about etching PCBs when I'm ready to make my own :).
I probably know more about how not to make PCB's, but am happy to offer what I can.
That sounds amazing, did you just read about the process of anodising or is there a guide that you can refer me to where you got the info for a home made setup?

Offline Bucake

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 08:04:40 »
wow..

beautiful and amazing :)
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Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 23 February 2015, 08:14:07 »
Try Caswell Plating for home anodizing. They are an online supplier who offers tutorials an instruction book and supplies for different plating methods.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 02:45:11 »
Thanks. I'm glad you're still around. I haven't heard from you in a while.

My sporadically obsessive nature has me focused on other things now, but I stop by to see if there are some cool ergos in development.
What did you do to the aluminum after you machined it? I don't see tool marks, so I'm guessing you did did something to prep it for anodizing? And tell me you at least have some motor controlled axis motion on that mill or a cordless drill to drive the cranks (that actually works really well) and that you didn't machine all that turning wheels by hand. You are nuts otherwise.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 February 2015, 02:48:23 by Zekromtor »

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:05:39 »
Thanks. I'm glad you're still around. I haven't heard from you in a while.

My sporadically obsessive nature has me focused on other things now, but I stop by to see if there are some cool ergos in development.
What did you do to the aluminum after you machined it? I don't see tool marks, so I'm guessing you did did something to prep it for anodizing? And tell me you at least have some motor controlled axis motion on that mill or a cordless drill to drive the cranks (that actually works really well) and that you didn't machine all that turning wheels by hand. You are nuts otherwise.

My sporadically obsessive nature has me focused on other things now

I think that describes about 75%of the GH membership; The rest of us are permanently obsessive.


My sporadically obsessive nature has me focused on other things now, but I stop by to see if there are some cool ergos in development.
That's great. I've heard that moving on while keeping some of what you've gained is growth, while leaving it all behind is just change.
What did you do to the aluminum after you machined it? I don't see tool marks, so I'm guessing you did did something to prep it for anodizing?

After milling the body as much as my mill and skill level were capable, I further shaped and smoothed out the surface with various sanders. I used pneumatic die grinders as well as different stationary sanders such as an oscillating spindle sander, belt sanders and disc sanders. I tried various final surface treatments before finally sandblasting it. The sandblasting seemed to provide the most consistent pre-anodizing surface prep and probably the most practical finished surface to resist fingerprints and hide imperfections
And tell me you at least have some motor controlled axis motion on that mill or a cordless drill to drive the cranks (that actually works really well) and that you didn't machine all that turning wheels by hand. You are nuts otherwise.

Before my 30 years in the construction field, I worked almost 15 years in a warehouse where you learn to enjoy repetition or go nuts. In my case I think I did both. I actually enjoy many aspects of repetitive work. The humming machinery sounds are like white noise allowing me to think clearly about things. I like the challenge of working as quick as practical while maintaining accuracy combined with the creative and artistic aspect that is enhanced when I'm involved in the physical process. That said, it would have been nice to have a machine automatically drill the almost 550 holes I drilled out last night. (See picture.)
91800-0
A close look at this picture shows that not all of the holes line up with the trace pads. I'm not sure if the printer didn't reproduce the scale exactly or if the transfer of the toner stretched the paper a bit. I'm sure that the holes are properly placed. When I set up the plates for drilling I became aware of this discrepancy and adjusted the positioning for minimum issues with the misplacement and it should be fine. The holes are still within the pads though not all centered. 
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 February 2015, 06:57:52 by kurplop »

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:08:55 »
kurplop, I'm really enjoying the photos. I have a very selfish request though. Would it be possible to see some videos of your work? Perhaps the mill or some other machinery in action?

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:34:35 »
I'll try, I'd like to but it's difficult, not to mention potentially dangerous, to be working with two hands and dealing with a camera at the same time. Not to mention the fact that the quality of my still shots prove that I'm not the Ansel Adams of the keyboard world

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 07:40:07 »
Don't do something dangerous just to try and get a video. I understand if you can't because it's not safe. I just love me some machining porn :).

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 24 February 2015, 20:14:06 »
One problem I had to resolve on this project was how to create a contoured thumb cluster without either splitting the pcb at the thumb transition or remaking all the keycaps. This is how I'm addressing the problem.

Because of the 3 dimensional aspect of my keyboard the thumb cluster has to bend slightly out of plane from the alpha cluster. I found that the PCB will bend slightly without any ill effects to change the plane about 9 degrees. It just needs to have some well placed supports.

The second issue has to do with easily accessing the upper thumb switches without accidentally hitting the lower ones.

As you can see, the stock ML caps are all the same profile
91869-0

Interestingly enough, if the stems are broken off a cap, it will fit nicely on one of its fellows, raising it to a good height in relation to the lower row.
91871-1

By rotating it 180 degrees, its profile is further improved. This placement feels really good making all 5 thumb keys very accessible.
91873-2

This comparison shows the contrasting profiles. The one cap is rough because I began sanding it to remove the legend impression.
91875-3

The next step is to adhere the two caps together, fill the transition flat with resin, and cast some new upper thumb caps. It should be much easier and quicker than machining some new ones.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 27 February 2015, 21:07:00 »
I glued up and filled the modified upper thumb cap and its imprint is currently being cast in to a silicone mold.

Here are 3 pictures showing how many bubbles can be extracted from the out-gassing of the silicone. The first picture shows its state just as the vacuum pressure begins to build.  The second shows it at 29 pounds of pressure just before I begin to release the pressure a bit to keep it from overflowing. It probably increases its volume by a factor of 6. The third picture shows it collapsing on itself. I then stirred the mix, repeated the process and held the pressure for about 10 minutes. Bubbles continued to form but I've found this amount of time to be adequate.
92247-092249-192251-2

This is a picture of my vacuum chamber. The vacuum pump cost about $100 and the 1/2" polycarbonate top and bottom were about $30. I had most of the fittings laying around the shop including the heavy wall 10" pvc pipe. I drilled and tapped a hole in the side of the pipe for the pump fittings. I hooked up a pressure release valve as well as a valve to the pump and a pressure gauge to verify the pressure level.
 92253-3
The vacuum chamber is not very polished looking, but I found the vacuum process necessary in order to get predictable results with the silicone molds. It can be frustrating, waiting overnight for the silicone to cure and then finding a small bubble in the worst possible place.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 February 2015, 06:56:06 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 28 February 2015, 11:53:22 »
When are you going to start making your own switches? :)

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 28 February 2015, 12:02:21 »
 
When are you going to start making your own switches? :)

Well, the secret's out now. ;D

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:18:46 »
We demand to see the caps.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:21:54 »
New tactic.

We request politely to see the caps produced.

Offline ApocalypseMaow

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 19:47:05 »
Not sure how I missed this, but good lord this is amazing!!!

Cant wait to see more!
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Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 16 March 2015, 20:38:23 »
Sorry to not give a progress report in a while. Unfortunately there hasn't been much progress, mostly finding mistakes and trying to cover them up before any of my GH brethren discover my blunders. Oh well, I guess the jig is up.

Problem #1   Because the ML cap stems are so small, I'm having a hard time making the keycap stems strong enough to keep them from frequently breaking when I remove them from the switches. I've been using an old batch of resin and that may be part of the problem.

Problem #2  I had a slight misalignment between the alpha keys and the thumb clusters. They should be 0.02" lower. It doesn't seem like much but it is quite noticeable sitting in the aluminum body.

Problem #3  When I modified (improved?) the PCB's, I moved all of the upper switch pin traces to the backside of the PCB's instead of the other way around. As a result, the current PCB's are upside down. I have since fixed the design but am waiting on some more PCB stock to ruin etch.

None of these have dampened my spirit but my work has been pretty demanding recently and I haven't had as much time as I'd like to work on fixing things. The pitfalls have taught me a lot and it should eventually result in a better final product.

I appreciate all of your interest and look forward to sharing something good soon.  I will also include pictures of the mistakes; That's always the best part.

Zekromtor–  I actually found your demands to be the supreme complement. Thank you!


Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 00:18:14 »
PCB blanks aren't too expensive, I wouldn't sweat the loss. They look pretty damn professional when completed too, at least the resolution we can see them at. I'm interested to hear if you can solve the hole alignment issue and whether you can determine if it was stretching of the toner/paper or not. Let us know when you get more done on it. Still my favorite project on here :)

Offline tufty

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 02:30:47 »
For your casting issues, and depending on what resin you're using, you might want to try a 15-30% by weight addition of glass fibres to your resin before pouring.  30% can take you from "brittle" to "unbreakable", and you can apparently get them down to ~0.5mm length (I've been using 3mm, but I'm casting much bigger pieces).

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 04:55:40 »
PCB blanks aren't too expensive, I wouldn't sweat the loss.
I'm glad to hear you say that. I'll send you the bill for them. ;D
They look pretty damn professional when completed too, at least the resolution we can see them at.
Thanks. With each attempt, they seem to improve in quality. I must be learning something but I'm honestly not sure what I'm doing to make them better. I think adjusting the trace separation has made the etching crisper. Have you considered the possibility that I'm not that bad a photographer and the poor resolution is a smokescreen to hide my limited PCB skills? ;)
I'm interested to hear if you can solve the hole alignment issue and whether you can determine if it was stretching of the toner/paper or not. Let us know when you get more done on it. Still my favorite project on here :)
I printed new toner copies the other day but haven't checked them for dimensional accuracy yet. I'll let you know when I do. I'm guessing that it's happening during the ironing process though.
I'd like to solve the problem but it's not concerning me too much because the the hole placement is determined by the mill's DRO, so as long as the pads fall around the holes, it should still work.
For your casting issues, and depending on what resin you're using, you might want to try a 15-30% by weight addition of glass fibres to your resin before pouring.  30% can take you from "brittle" to "unbreakable", and you can apparently get them down to ~0.5mm length (I've been using 3mm, but I'm casting much bigger pieces).
Thanks for the suggestion. Can you tell me where I can source the glass fibers?  I guess I could just pull a few batts out of the attic. :)) Also, does the fiber affect the viscosity of the resin or are there any other possible negative issues using it? I've read that the curing time is retarded with thin castings because of less heat generated during the chemical reaction. Do you think that could also affect the ultimate tensile strength of the fully cured product?




Offline tufty

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 17 March 2015, 07:55:05 »
Thanks for the suggestion. Can you tell me where I can source the glass fibers?
Mine came from the local builder's merchant - at 3-5mm they're sold as strengthener for cement.  Those are probably too long for you, though, especially in the stems.

You probably want something like this : http://www.fibertecinc.com/microglass.htm or http://www.fibreglast.com/product/132_inch_Milled_Glass_Fibers_38/Fillers

1/32" is 0.8mm, that should do you fine.

It does affect the viscosity somewhat.  It shouldn't affect surface appearance as long as it's well mixed, but you might want to consider slipping some gelcoat or pure resin on the cap areas before pouring "just in case".  You will *absolutely* need to vaccum your resin before pouring, mixing the fibres in will bring in a lot of air.

My process is this:

- My material is a 2:1 resin - hardener mix.  30% fibre is about the same volume as half the resin...
- Split resin into 2 equal volumes.  Mis fibres with one volume of resin, go slowly like mixing eggs into flour.  Once it's mixed, hit it up with a vacuum to get the air out, then add the rest of the resin, remix, split again if necessary, and hit up with vacuum (again).
- Mix hardener into resin, vacuum (again, wasn't that fridge pump a good find?), pour.
- Bung the mould into pressure chamber, hit the whole thing with 2 bar (my pressure chamber is a DIY bodge, I'd pump it up to 10 bar but I'd probably get debris in my eye or something) and let it sit.

Offline jacobolus

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Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 19 March 2015, 22:23:26 »
Not much to share but I did get the blank PCB's in the mail and they are ready to prep.
94643-0
It looks like the printer is making dimensionally accurate copies. It looks like the ironing process might have been the problem. Any suggestions?
 94645-1
I'm hoping to have time this weekend to etch the new PCB's and solder up the components. I'll leave the keycap issues for another day.

Offline Oobly

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 20 March 2015, 04:28:05 »
Sorry, haven't had time to take pics of my process for using baking paper and laser printer for making PCBs, but it's essentially the same as this: http://www.instructables.com/id/Toner-transfer-no-soak-high-quality-double-sided/?ALLSTEPS

I just use an iron instead of the laminator, since I don't have one. It works quite well if you have a dark enough print and you can see the toner colour change from the back side of the backing paper as it adheres to the PCB and loses hold on the baking paper.

I also use 3M Magic tape at all four corners of the baking paper rather than just the top edge to prevent it folding and the tape is very thin and seems to handle the process well.

Have you lubed your ML switches? I have found this to make a massive difference to how they feel and they can handle off-axis presses like a champ, too.

By the way, this is looking amazeballs!
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 20 March 2015, 05:58:28 »
@oobly, my happiness level this morning > 9000. Thank you for posting that link on how you etch custom PCBs! I've been wondering how GHers have been doing that for a little while :D.

When you say iron, do you mean a iron for your hair? Just trying to understand the details.

Offline Oobly

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 20 March 2015, 06:23:30 »
@oobly, my happiness level this morning > 9000. Thank you for posting that link on how you etch custom PCBs! I've been wondering how GHers have been doing that for a little while :D.

When you say iron, do you mean a iron for your hair? Just trying to understand the details.

:D glad to help.

Clothes iron, nice flat surface to heat the toner with so it melts and adheres to the PCB copper and "let's go" of the baking paper.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 20 March 2015, 13:07:07 »
Oobly, thanks for the link. It contains a lot of good ideas.

I ordered some baking paper in the event that my paper stretches again. I refuse to fail a fourth time!

tufty, thanks for the info on the fibers. I'm going to try a few more times without glass with fresher resin first because I still have some very fast setting stock that probably would kick off before I could thoroughly mix the glass into it.     If it still too weak, it's good to know there are other options.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #60 on: Tue, 24 March 2015, 19:29:55 »
It was a fairly productive weekend. I got the PCB blanks in the mail and once again used the toner transfer method to prep the board for etching. Unfortunately, the ironing process is the problem. I had almost the same expansion as the last time. It will work fine and once again, the holes I drilled out are all within the pads so it shouldn't affect the operation. I did try the silicone baking sheet method and consequently learned how to remove the toner roll to remove the jammed up paper in the printer. I was warned not to try it with the Brother laser printer. I decided to stick with the brochure paper.

As you can see, I got plenty of PCB stock.
95067-0

The company I got the PCB's from had a very fast delivery and their prices were very reasonable.
95069-1

The pre-etched PCB. Notice the areas that didn't transfer well and I used a Sharpie on. Also the areas I scratched the toner from where the traces were a bit close together. Other than that, ready for etching.
95073-2
The etching went well and I'm currently soldering things up. Pictures to follow soon.

I got a great deal on some Cherry ML circuit boards with switches and keycaps.
It came out to about 7cents per switch/cap shipped!
95071-3 

I'll share my keycap stem solution later this evening.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 25 March 2015, 01:40:51 »
Can't beat that price for switches. Looking forward to more pics.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 25 March 2015, 07:53:29 »
This is one of my favorite threads.

Also Kurplop's hands are some of the least geeky looking. They look like construction worker hands. Quite interesting.

That said, using ML switches... very sad.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Zustiur

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 25 March 2015, 09:37:47 »
This might be a silly idea, but irons are designed to stretch fabric as part of the crease removal process. Perhaps a stream press would be the solution?

Offline VoteForDavid

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 25 March 2015, 19:52:34 »
Regular iron with the steam turned up high, with a sheet or two of (t-shirt?) material between iron and paper to reduce friction?
Jesus loves you.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 25 March 2015, 22:27:48 »
This is one of my favorite threads.

You just made my day.

Also Kurplop's hands are some of the least geeky looking. They look like construction worker hands. Quite interesting.
My spouse thinks that my rough, burly hands are a turn-on. By the way, I'm a woman. (Just kidding)

Actually, I am a construction worker. I hope that my GH membership isn't revoked, now that this info is out.

That said, using ML switches... very sad.

I know. I seem to be always bucking the trend. I also like caps lock and will make sure it is in a prominent spot on my keyboard.

I chose ML switches for their compact size. I wanted to remove as much bulk from the keyboard as possible. I wasn't willing to part with the big trackball however,  in spite of the compact size goal. I tried using a smaller one in my last keyboard and it just wasn't working well for me.

I don't mind the ML experience. In fact I prefer their shorter throw. The only real reservation I have with them is that they seem fragile. I have found that on several occasions, I have accidentally removed the stem and switch top with the cap I'm trying to remove.

This might be a silly idea, but irons are designed to stretch fabric as part of the crease removal process. Perhaps a stream press would be the solution?

I think your summary is right on. I wonder what is available in a compact size?

Regular iron with the steam turned up high, with a sheet or two of (t-shirt?) material between iron and paper to reduce friction?

That might help but I'm already having trouble getting enough heat to transfer the toner with an iron directly applied to the paper. It seems to take a long time to complete the transfer.
By the way. Welcome to GeekHack!


Now for the new business.

I mentioned earlier that I was having trouble with broken stems. Some of you offered good solutions but I came up with something that was free and readily available to strengthen the stems.

Notice the trimmed paper clip in the corner of the mold.
95259-0

It fits nicely in the stem recesses in the mold.
95261-1

Here it is in the keycap. These are really tough stems! I tried to pulling one apart with pliers and couldn't break it without completely destroying the entire cap.
95263-2

Here they are nestled in the keyboard. They are pretty rough looking compared to the caps I made for the PortaPlop. I was more concerned with getting something in place so I could move on . I'm going to remake the mold soon but first things first.
95265-3

I have pictures of the caps I glued up to make the master for the new thumb keys but whenever I upload more than 4 pictures I tend to lose everything. I'll post them soon.
« Last Edit: Wed, 25 March 2015, 22:33:23 by kurplop »

Offline neverused

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 25 March 2015, 22:47:25 »
Awesome job! I always get excited to see a new post from you here.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 26 March 2015, 08:51:46 »
Nice looking caps Kurplop!!

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 26 March 2015, 10:14:44 »
My spouse thinks that my rough, burly hands are a turn-on. By the way, I'm a woman. (Just kidding)

lol

I hope the MLs work out for you in the long run. I haven't been completely satisfied with the leaf mechanism in either of the two alps brands I've tried. The smallest bits of dust/debris tend to wreak havoc with connectivity, causing multiple presses (not from bouncing), and I have to keep a can of air around to blow them out frequently.

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #69 on: Thu, 26 March 2015, 10:25:03 »
Seems like so much unnecessary work when you could just send the design off to a PCB fab and get it back perfectly the first time.

Love this project.  Keep it up!

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 26 March 2015, 11:10:47 »
Seems like so much unnecessary work when you could just send the design off to a PCB fab and get it back perfectly the first time.
*projectile vomits*

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 26 March 2015, 22:29:09 »
Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement.

Seems like so much unnecessary work when you could just send the design off to a PCB fab and get it back perfectly the first time

It probably does seem like a big waste of time and effort but I didn't see sending it to a PCB fabricator as an option since I can't seem to figure out the PCB design programs. I downloaded Kicad and it didn't take long to realize that I'm not familiar enough with electronics to figure it out.

My skills are more of the hands on type where I can physically manipulate a medium into submission. I find the trial and error and occasional successes very satisfying, albeit more time consuming. Don't misunderstand, I wish my PCB's were as clean as the pro's are. Every time a blob of solder flows beyond the pads because my traces are bare, remind me that my boards could be better. Maybe a competent PCB designer wants to collaborate with me?


I hope the MLs work out for you in the long run.

Thanks. I hope so too.  It is all about size. This picture pretty much sums up why I decided to gamble on the ML's
95368-0

As promised, here are a couple of pic's of the caps.

The first shows the height of the lower (original) caps in relation to the height and profile of the upper (modified) caps.
95370-1

The second is of the 2 caps I glued together then filled the side gaps to make the master for the upper thumb caps. Conveniently, the 2 caps were different colors. You can see how I over sanded the top profile to try to get the best feel. Unfortunately, where I burned through left enough of a line to be noticeable in the casts. Today I applied resin over the cap and will resand, trying to avoid burning completely through the resin. I will then remake the molds which had other problems I needed to address as well.
95372-2

Sorry about the out of focus pictures and the dusty subjects. My shop isn't exactly a cleanroom.

I hope to finish wiring up the keyboard components this weekend. Then it's just installing the trackball, hooking them up to an internal hub and a few hundred other loose ends.



 

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 00:33:23 »
I'm really curious about those switches now. I didn't realize how different they were from other cherries. I'm wondering 2 things:
1. Can you remove the leaf that provides the tactile bump to make it linear and still have it work properly?
2. As I understand it's 2mm of travel and activation is at 1mm.... does it look like it might be easy to mod to make the activation be closer to the bottom of the press?

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 07:37:27 »
I'll take one apart and experiment on it but they are small switches and are difficult for me to work with. Cherry's spec sheet says they have 3mm travel with activation at 1.5mm. It may be possible to limit the bottom travel by inserting something into the center barrel.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 10:44:24 »
Kurplop, you are awesome and I would like to see you succeed with the lowest possible difficulty.

Check with Fohat.digs, he's like you in that he doesn't know electrical engineering but is great with mechanical/ physical figuring things out. The two of you might be able to trade works, thereby increasing efficiency.

Bipiphany is fond of PCB design and sometimes helps people too.

I gave away a gigantic bag of ML blanks last year and have none left. But you get ML blanks in every Crap Bag from Signature plastics. Hundreds of geekhackers have Crap Bags. If you need keycaps, just post, and you will get more ML blanks than you can use.

I also can recommend the Cherry MX jailhouse mod if you are interested in trying out Cherry MX switches, due to the shorter throw. But alas, the MX switch is taller and heavier so there's no getting around the ML switch's advantages in this regard.

Did a bit of construction work when younger; always respected the pros. Every profession has its exponents and I am ready to swear that one pro is equal to ten untrained peasants. I wish my own country has real professional lifetime career construction workers with high competence and efficiency rather than importing peasants from abroad for cheap.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #75 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 12:45:48 »
I'll take one apart and experiment on it but they are small switches and are difficult for me to work with. Cherry's spec sheet says they have 3mm travel with activation at 1.5mm. It may be possible to limit the bottom travel by inserting something into the center barrel.

I was actually wondering if it would be possible to delay activation until it hit nearer the bottom, possibly by trimming a piece of contact metal, but I honestly can't tell how it works based on the few pics i can find of it taken apart. 3mm of travel actually sounds pretty nice. If you can fix the scratchiness and they function well, might have a winner here in spite of what people tend to say about them (just as your other thread suggested).

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #76 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 14:18:25 »
There are two big problems with ML:

(1) They wobble a great deal, and bind hard if you hit them a little off center. Even a standard full-size keycap is bigger than you want for ML: you can’t safely press its corners. There’s a reason all those >1u ML keycaps are hat shaped, otherwise they wouldn’t work at all. Keys with stabilizer wires (like the left shift / enter on the Cherry board pictured a few posts upthread) work pretty well though. I want to try some of these keycaps someday, which I suspect would partially solve the problem:
More

(2) They’re quite scratchy unless you lube them, and they’re a pain in the ass to take apart, lube, and put back together.

Otherwise, I think they’re great, considering their size. People should use them for mouse buttons IMO.
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 March 2015, 14:27:17 by jacobolus »

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #77 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 06:12:19 »
Berserkfan– Thanks for all the ideas. I'll follow up on some of them. I know there is a lot of talent out there that would be willing to help. GHer's are the greatest. It has always been harder for me to ask for help than to give it. I guess I need to start exploiting everyone's generosity. :)

I consider myself more of a jack of all trades and also admire the truly proficient specialty tradesmen that I associate with. Here in So. California, the immigrant population has taken over many of the construction trades, which I do not begrudge. I'm far more bothered by the excessive regulations which make it next to impossible to be in full compliance and still conduct a profitable business without driving up costs to the consumer.

Zekromtor– Check your personal messages regarding ML switches.

jacobolus– I agree on all of your points, especially working on them. They are really small. None of those are deal breakers for me however. I was aware of the drawbacks going into the project.

I have found that most of the ways that benefit by lubing can be reached externally and while it isn't as good as a complete disassembly, it does help considerably. I've also observed that broken in ML's operate more smoothly than new ones.
 
One benefit of a compact keyboard is that the keys are right there. Not having to overreach may make accurate key presses easier to achieve.

To solve the >1u issue, I simply eliminated them. This may be impractical on a commercial keyboard that has to be usable for many hand sizes, but if the key sits exactly where you would naturally strike it, larger keycaps aren't really necessary. I was surprised recently when a former employee of mine tried out the Alumaplop. Although he is about 6 foot 6 and has fingers that are as long as Dodger Dogs, he found the keyboard to be very comfortable to use.

I appreciate everybody's interest and hope to have a progress report by the end of the weekend.


Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #78 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:16:12 »
If you hadn't mentioned it, I probably wouldn't have seen that message for a while. Responded.

And I do wonder if .7 spacing, even horizontally (I'm already sold on <.75 vertical spacing), might actually be ideal. From the looks of it, my finger tips are skinnier than yours, so if you have no issues with the spacing, I may have to try that on my next build.


Edit: I respect your desire to keep capslock functionality, but what I'd recommend is that you possibly combine your capslock and shift keys into one in the following manner: retain normal shift function, however, a press and release of shift without any other keys being hit while it was down would serve as a capslock toggle. I can't think of any downsides to this since caps is never used in key combos and the shift key is only ever used _with_ key combos. Of course, this is only if you can actually make use of the extra key it would free up.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:52:16 by Zekromtor »

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 10:00:50 »
And I do wonder if .7 spacing, even horizontally (I'm already sold on <.75 vertical spacing), might actually be ideal. From the looks of it, my finger tips are skinnier than yours, so if you have no issues with the spacing, I may have to try that on my next build.

The nice thing about the ML switch is that it's small enough that the limiting factor will be anatomical not because the switch is too big. People seem to be able to accurately use tiny cell phone keypads so I think the main hesitation to go smaller is convention. The only reason I kept the ML's .7" vertical pitch is the convenience of using available keycaps, otherwise I would have reduced it to .65" or even smaller.  The sub cap size would have the added benefit of making off center presses even less likely. 

Edit: I respect your desire to keep capslock functionality, but what I'd recommend is that you possibly combine your capslock and shift keys into one in the following manner: retain normal shift function, however, a press and release of shift without any other keys being hit while it was down would serve as a capslock toggle. I can't think of any downsides to this since caps is never used in key combos and the shift key is only ever used _with_ key combos. Of course, this is only if you can actually make use of the extra key it would free up.
You make a good point. Do you think that I could maintain the caps lock indicator light if I made such a change? If so, the only downside of me removing the caps lock is that it may threaten my reputation as a recalcitrant old man. ;)

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #80 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 14:57:45 »
jacobolus,

those keycaps you linked do look like a good potential solution to the problem you described. I'm a fan of rounded keytops, too, since you really shouldnt be relying on corners for presses anyways.

Thanks to kurplop I'm going to be doing some hardcore ML testing soon. 3mm of travel seems ideal to me, especially if I can mod them to activate at the bottom, which I've come to realize is my preference. They just have a lot of things going for them that work for me from the smaller footprint to the keycaps that will be easier to machine than standard cherries.

kurplop, there's no physical reason why you couldn't still have your caps lock indicator light work with that config, other than if you are relying on firmware you don't have the code for. still, it may be more work than it's worth, but being a fellow recalcitrant old man, i have a tendency to push everything to the limit to try and eek out every potential bit of input efficiency -- for better or for worse.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 30 March 2015, 02:03:23 »
And I do wonder if .7 spacing, even horizontally (I'm already sold on <.75 vertical spacing), might actually be ideal. From the looks of it, my finger tips are skinnier than yours, so if you have no issues with the spacing, I may have to try that on my next build.
The nice thing about the ML switch is that it's small enough that the limiting factor will be anatomical not because the switch is too big.
Personally I think the ideal keeps the horizontal spacing about as it is, but compresses the vertical spacing dramtically (down to maybe .6"), but combine that with quite a bit of height step between columns, and place different fingers’ keys at different heights. The key tops can be reduced to a fairly small size (.6" x .4" ?) and they should probably not sit in totally parallel columns, but rather include a bit of the natural splay you get when extending the fingers straight.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 30 March 2015, 23:10:44 »

Personally I think the ideal keeps the horizontal spacing about as it is, but compresses the vertical spacing dramtically (down to maybe .6")

With the right shaped cap I think .6" would not only be practical but would reduce the vertical distance in 5 rows by 3/4". The possibilities with those scratchy, sticky, hard to open, problematic keys are staggering.

On another front, I got sidetracked because of limited time to work on another detail of the Alumaplop's construction. I knew from the start that the arcade buttons would be an issue because, to put it bluntly, that don't fit in the shallow profile of the case. I had some ideas but tonight I stumbled on to a great solution.

The standard 24mm Sanwa arcade switch is a full 1" from the face of the keyboard case to the back of the switch; Actually, 1 1/4" including the terminals. I've disassembled the switch from the housing in this photo.
95752-0

I cut a donor board's PCB around a ML switch. I left a little extra PCB on the sides for mounting into the Sanwa housing.
95754-1

Inside the housing there's a rectangular hole that looks like it was made for the ML.
95756-2

 By trimming a little notch in the bottom of the housing where the PCB would fit, the PCB section snaps right into the Sanwa housing! Depth is reduced to 5/8". The switch feels great and no hot glue. Total time of conversion– 3 minutes. I still need to check the range of the plunger to make sure a hard strike doesn't push the ML out of its home and if necessary, put some kind of limiter on the plunger.
 95758-3

The white switches are just for experimenting, I will use black ones in the Plop.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 30 March 2015, 23:38:53 »
While on the subject of arcade switches, I thought I'd share something I tried but decided against.

I turned a switch housing out of aluminum. When I fitted it into the Plop I realized something just didn't look right but I couldn't put my finger on what. It came to me this evening. It reminds me of the cigarette lighter in the Old Man's '62 Chrysler.
 95762-0




Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #84 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 00:06:05 »
Haha. What if you black anodized it though?

Offline tufty

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #85 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 01:41:48 »
It reminds me of the cigarette lighter in the Old Man's '62 Chrysler.
...and you can't easily get 12V over USB.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #86 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 05:38:33 »
Haha. What if you black anodized it though?


It reminds me of the cigarette lighter in the Old Man's '62 Chrysler.
...and you can't easily get 12V over USB.

It's comments like these that push the state of the art of keyboarding to the next level. Thanks for the thoughts. :thumb:

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #87 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 06:20:22 »
It reminds me of the cigarette lighter in the Old Man's '62 Chrysler.
...and you can't easily get 12V over USB.
You can with USB 3.1 type C connectors. 20 volts!

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #88 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 06:36:17 »
But I don't smoke.

Offline tufty

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #89 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 13:41:00 »
But I don't smoke.
Pump 12v down your USB line and let your controller do the smoking for you.

Those modded caps look dead good, by the way.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #90 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 15:40:43 »
Yeah, the custom black keycaps have a textured look that matches the anodized finish very well. I hope your plan is to have it all blacked out, no labels on any keys, just that big deep red trackball in the middle to set it off. That oughta get you a feature on kotaku.

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #91 on: Tue, 31 March 2015, 16:05:12 »
This is some handsome workmanship.  You've got some great stuff there.  I've got nothing worthwhile to contribute to the thread other than that tiny ego boost of a faceless person on the internet thinking your crafts are pretty neato.  Keep it up.

Offline ECA

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #92 on: Wed, 01 April 2015, 06:29:51 »
This is the beginning of what is hopefully about a 2 month thread, detailing the completion of my latest project.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
I decided to test my patience and improving skill on a mill by taking a 10 lb. chunk of 6061 aluminum and making about 9.25 lb. of shavings leaving me with a sleek housing for a keyboard loosely based on the ErgoDox and once again integrating a Slimblade trackball. Repeating this fundamental combination attests to my overall satisfaction with having a large trackball set between a split keyboard.

My objective is to make a semi portable keyboard that shares the basic layout as my desktop setup. An earlier iteration aka 'The ErgoPlop', unfortunately had to be renamed the ErgoFlop. While there were many things that worked well on it, its execution seemed to fall between two stools; most notably, the 20+ degrees of tenting simply made it too tall to be portable and the smaller trackball just didn't feel right after being spoiled by a larger one.

Some of the design features include, using Cherry ML switches because of their smaller profile, of course the Slimblade, centered between the keyboard halves, repeating the use of modified arcade buttons for mouse functions and reducing the keyboard to 62 keys, actually 64 because the two arcade buttons above the trackball are keyboard commands.

The keyboard measures 7.5" high by 13.25" wide by 1.5" high to the highest keys (less trackball). The one piece aluminum chassis is covered beneath with a 3/8" walnut baseplate rabbeted into it. The ML switches are PCB mounted only, so I designed and home etched a flawed prototype PCB that can be partly seen through the thumb pockets. I made some mistakes in the design but drilled it out to confirm various dimensions and key location. I have since corrected the design (hopefully) and will be printing the new ones soon. I used the laser printer toner method to mask the copper I wanted to remain, then burned off the exposed copper with ferric chloride. I think the process worked pretty well but it is obviously not the quality of a professionally produced PCB.

More details to follow...

I would like one..

HOW MUCH??


Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #93 on: Wed, 01 April 2015, 07:14:52 »
 
This is some handsome workmanship.  You've got some great stuff there.  I've got nothing worthwhile to contribute to the thread other than that tiny ego boost of a faceless person on the internet thinking your crafts are pretty neato.  Keep it up.

I'll take faceless ego boosts wherever I can get them.  :)  Actually, the best part about hearing encouraging words like yours is knowing there is a connection. That others understand and share the same passion that I do. We see it everywhere, whether cheering for the same team, enjoying the same music, movie or art, sometimes even in a conversation with a stranger. I think it's one of the greatest joys in life. Thank you for commenting.


I would like one..

HOW MUCH??
 
I was thinking about trying to come up with a clever answer. A few came to mind.

1. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

2. More than you could possibly imagine. (Read with Alec Guinness's Obi-wan-kenobi accent)

3. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.


Now for a serious response.

If a manufacturer mass produced them, probably over $500.

If I was commissioned to make one it would be $3000+ (I wouldn't be interested however)

What I would pay for one? $1000–$1500

How much will I sell it on Craig's List for when I make another one? $50?


Value, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder it's  hard to know what something's really worth.

By the way, welcome to the geekhack forum. There are a lot of great people here.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #94 on: Wed, 01 April 2015, 11:53:08 »
Good answer.

I've got a friend that says about my keyboard "come on, just make me one. how much will it cost?"

It's a labor of love... and I wouldn't love making it for anybody else. It's tedious, tedious work. Especially the soldering, which I refuse to do indoors, making it even worse because of the florida heat and the lack of a distraction like some bad TV. My keyboard is far simpler to manufacture, and I used a CNC, not a manual mill, and it's still easily 40 man hours including the machining of all the keycaps. I can't even imagine how many hours go into the Alumaplop, machined from a solid chunk of aluminum.

Speaking of that... do you have a way of doing more than 1 keycap at a time? Using a single key mold to make all the ones you need sounds pretty painful.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #95 on: Wed, 01 April 2015, 18:41:24 »
I plan on only making the caps that aren't available from my donor boards.  After all, I have 19 ML boards to pull from.  I'll make a mold for the standard cap for the keys I don't have in the single unit size and another mold for the thumb keys. If I experiment with different spacing I will have to make custom ones, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 April 2015, 03:52:25 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #96 on: Thu, 02 April 2015, 14:44:24 »
19 ML boards? Holy crap.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #97 on: Thu, 02 April 2015, 19:34:58 »
There were a bunch of replacement laptop boards with ML switches and dyesubs on ebay a couple years back for like $4 each + shipping. They’re still available for $20 each + shipping http://www.ebay.com/itm/260217472925 or $16 shipped http://www.ebay.com/itm/350632420547 or $50 OBO for a lot of 5 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281640926821 (that looks like lasered caps), etc.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 April 2015, 19:40:53 by jacobolus »

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #98 on: Thu, 02 April 2015, 20:09:03 »
I got a similar deal. The seller wanted about $20 shipped. On the first round I offered $36 shipped for 3 boards which they accepted. A month later the seller still had about 15 left so I offered $7 per board for all 15 shipped which they accepted as well.

Lesson-  Buy in volume and make a low offer (they can always say no). I think I had a different seller and they just wanted to move the product.

I'm not sure about the legends. The ones I tried to sand off took some plastic with the legends.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #99 on: Thu, 02 April 2015, 20:27:38 »
I'm not sure about the legends.
The ones you have pictured above are dyesubs.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 07:43:07 »
I'm not sure about the legends.
The ones you have pictured above are dyesubs.


There's way too much knowledge on this forum. You guys know everything.

 Okay try this one. I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100... :)

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #101 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 07:46:18 »
Progress on the Alumaplop is probably going to stall for the next week or so. I've got a years worth of business records to assemble for my accountant. before the 15th.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #102 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 11:55:12 »
Repent.

Repent for all your dirty plunder. And pay.

Pay more and more for every dime you so greedily collected.

IRS 25:17
« Last Edit: Fri, 03 April 2015, 16:12:20 by Zekromtor »

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #103 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 12:13:49 »
53
I'm back.

Espresso machine overhaul: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78261.0

Carbon Fiber keyboard base: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54825

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #104 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 13:12:37 »
53

You win! The number was 35, the per cent I'll probably have to pay to my bankrupt uncle.  You weren't very close but you win by default.

If I have anything left, I'll send you a prize.

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 13:20:40 »

53

You win! The number was 35, the per cent I'll probably have to pay to my bankrupt uncle.  You weren't very close but you win by default.

If I have anything left, I'll send you a prize.

Haha.

Did you see Focus yet?  There's a scene in there this reminds me of...
I'm back.

Espresso machine overhaul: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78261.0

Carbon Fiber keyboard base: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54825

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 20:29:04 »
Repent.

Repent for all your dirty plunder. And pay.

Pay more and more for every dime you so greedily collected.

IRS 25:17

If the degree of my treachery is proportional to my profit margin last year, I expect to be elevated to sainthood soon.

What is IRS 25:17?

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #107 on: Fri, 03 April 2015, 21:57:25 »
What is IRS 25:17?

I believe it's just a made-up number to sound like a bible verse quotation

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #108 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 00:05:27 »
Probably related to:

Ezekiel 25:17 (Tarantino Edition)

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the Valley of Darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon the with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brother. And you will know my name is The LORD, when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
KMAC :: LZ-GH :: WASD CODE :: WASD v2 :: GH60 :: Alps64 :: JD45 :: IBM Model M :: IBM 4704 "Pingmaster"

http://jd40.info :: http://jd45.info


in memoriam

"When I was a kid, I used to take things apart and never put them back together."

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 00:22:22 »
Yeah. Wasn't my finest work.

OK, so ML testing has begun. My findings have been rather ordinary. There's a slight scratchy or chalky feel to them unlubricated, but it's very minor on these used MLs and doesn't bother me. The potential for the keys to bind or require more force to actuate when pressed on the far edges or corners is also too minor for me to really care about, and jacobolus's keycap alternative is an ideal way to minimize it even further. The overall travel of the key feels good.

About mods... I was hoping I'd be able to mod these switches, make them linear perhaps, but that is not possible. The mechanism that causes the connection is the same one that causes the tactile bump, so there's no simple way to remove a piece and change the feel. It wouldn't be too hard to mod them to reduce the travel after actuation either, provided you could source something other than an O Ring to use as the spacer. Cut foam would work, but I'd prefer something harder. At that point, however, you may end up reducing travel to a point that it's no longer comfortable.

Lubed they are smoother, but not as smooth as the Matias alps that I'm used to. Doesn't bother me any though. The slight scratchiness may actually be preferable to some, much in the same way some do not want their mousepad to be a super smooth surface.

Overall, I do agree with those that consider the ML to be a smaller cherry brown. I'm going to keep testing and see if my cat hair and dust riddled environment can produce any of the same double clicks that I get some my ducky and matias alps that require bottled air to remedy.

The .7 horizontal spacing is great for me. All my future boards will use it, I'm quite sure.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 03:27:51 »
If you wanted to reduce travel after activation, could you drop a small ball into the plunger shaft? A soft ball would also cushion the bottoming out. I find the standard 3mm travel, 1.5 mm before and 1.5mm after activation pretty good.

FYI -  The switches you're testing are new so are probably as scratchy as they ever will be.

 I wonder if the ideal process would be to use them unlubed for a while to wear them in, then lube them?
Do you think it's necessary to disassemble the switches to lube? I ask for two reasons. First, as you know the switches are quite small and fragile, if opening can be avoided it would be a plus. Second, most of the contact points can at least be partially reached externally.

I don't notice binding if I strike the corners of the keycaps as much as when the strike isn't vertical. I agree however that the round top ML caps would probably be helpful.

I think I'm good with the .7" horizontal spacing too. Once you get use to it, the advantage of having the keys closer is a definite positive. Do you think there's merit in the vertical spacing being a bit tighter?  My earlier testing found .65" to be ideal for my hands but I think I limited it to that because I couldn't fit a tighter spacing with either the MX or the Alps style switches. A future board may try a .6" to .65". The only spot where I would have liked a greater vertical spacing is between the thumb keys. If I moved the upper thumb rows away from the alpha's, there would be room to raise them .1 to 1.5" which I think would feel less cramped. Part of the problem is the way I contoured the upper thumb keys; they cramp the lower row a bit. Reshaping them may solve the problem.

Thanks for the results of your preliminary testing. :thumb:

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #111 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 03:37:08 »
Probably related to:

Ezekiel 25:17 (Tarantino Edition)

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the Valley of Darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon the with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brother. And you will know my name is The LORD, when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

You got me curious now. The Tarantino version is a pretty liberal paraphrase of the original text. I assume it's from one of his movies?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #112 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 04:05:46 »
The Internal Revenue Code is Title 26 of the US Code, not 25. Also, I think §17 must be a number reserved for future use (or something..?), notice the skip from §15 to §21 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/subtitle-A/chapter-1/subchapter-A

25 USC §17 is about the Bureau of Indian Affairs: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/25/17

The 25:17 thing must be a typo. ;)
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 April 2015, 04:13:27 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #113 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 04:10:12 »
I assume it's from one of his movies?
You’ve never seen Pulp Fiction?!

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #114 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 04:34:30 »
Forgive me. I tried watching it a few months ago and didn't care for it. Stopped it a quarter way through and watched Lady and the Tramp instead.

Why are you up at 2:00am? Are you a night owl or an early riser like me?

Offline metalliqaz

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #115 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 06:02:49 »
2 am isn't early, it's late.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #116 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 06:14:00 »
I average about 3-4 hours of sleep a night, usually between 9:30 and 1:30.

Does anyone have a remedy for insomnia?

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #117 on: Sat, 04 April 2015, 13:59:31 »
If you wanted to reduce travel after activation, could you drop a small ball into the plunger shaft? A soft ball would also cushion the bottoming out. I find the standard 3mm travel, 1.5 mm before and 1.5mm after activation pretty good.

FYI -  The switches you're testing are new so are probably as scratchy as they ever will be.

 I wonder if the ideal process would be to use them unlubed for a while to wear them in, then lube them?
Do you think it's necessary to disassemble the switches to lube? I ask for two reasons. First, as you know the switches are quite small and fragile, if opening can be avoided it would be a plus. Second, most of the contact points can at least be partially reached externally.

I don't notice binding if I strike the corners of the keycaps as much as when the strike isn't vertical. I agree however that the round top ML caps would probably be helpful.

I think I'm good with the .7" horizontal spacing too. Once you get use to it, the advantage of having the keys closer is a definite positive. Do you think there's merit in the vertical spacing being a bit tighter?  My earlier testing found .65" to be ideal for my hands but I think I limited it to that because I couldn't fit a tighter spacing with either the MX or the Alps style switches. A future board may try a .6" to .65". The only spot where I would have liked a greater vertical spacing is between the thumb keys. If I moved the upper thumb rows away from the alpha's, there would be room to raise them .1 to 1.5" which I think would feel less cramped. Part of the problem is the way I contoured the upper thumb keys; they cramp the lower row a bit. Reshaping them may solve the problem.

Thanks for the results of your preliminary testing. :thumb:

Yes, you could definitely use a tiny ball or a tiny disk of punched metal/rubber beneath the plunger to reduce travel.  It's important to note that reducing travel after activation is far less for comfort, and more to increase the ability for rapid double taps. It's virtually impossible to make use of the minuscule tactile bump for double taps, which quite frankly only gets in the way. Ideally pro gamers want (or should want, in my theory) as small a travel after activation as possible specifically so there is also minimal travel required to reset the switch on the upstroke. I think this is why gamers tend to favor red cherry switches with O-rings under the keycaps - they're actually trying to mimic the bottom-out activation of rubber domes by eliminating over travel.

I would agree that ideally you'd want to wear them in unlubed, then lube them later if you want maximum smoothness - or just never lube. The lube tests I did today on new ML switches were not very successful, making me think that I had imagined any improvement from before.
Perimeter of switch lubed without taking apart = felt little to no difference in scratchiness, same potential for binding
Perimeter of switch and plunger lubed = still felt little to no different in scratchiness, tiny bit less bindability on corner presses
Removing the metal contact completely = felt less scratchy, but switch obviously can't work. I just did this to test a theory that much of that feeling comes from the triangular plastic sliders rubbing on the metal contact. Putting any lube on the contacts sounds like a horrible idea though.

So I'd recommend just keeping the switches dry. They really only bind if you are purposefully trying to get them to, pressing on a corner in a way to tilt the key as much as possible before depressing.

As for reducing vertical spacing further, yes, I do see the potential provided it is compatible with your anatomy, however, that may be contingent on building in a step, or a pseudo step provided by angled keycaps.

For the thumbs, you're talking to someone who only uses a single thumb row, so I'd support keeping the thumb rows spaced quite far apart vertically and in elevation, but I think this is where anatomy plays perhaps the largest part.

Lastly, as for Pulp Fiction, it's one of my favorites, and was indeed the source for my selected numbers. It's probably about as opposite from Lady and the Tramp as you can get, though, so it just depends on if you are in the mood. I haven't given much of Tarantino's newer stuff a chance, because they all look so dumbed down for mass consumption, but Pulp Fiction is definitely an intelligent and hilarious movie if you can get past the comical violence.

Offline berserkfan

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #118 on: Sun, 05 April 2015, 10:44:58 »
Don’t be afraid to exploit people’s generosity… as long as you’re willing to reciprocate. Sometimes when talking to fohat I know that there are some things he can’t do and wish he could. When you get help from someone there is probably some way in which you can help him back in future, since rarely do people’s skill sets overlap completely.

BTW I also use 1u thumb keys, and am a big fan of them. With 1u thumb keys you can have more thumb keys to do more things such as activating extra function and macro levels. Metalliqaz is famous for having programming software and he could help you with this.

I have also found no need for more than 1u little finger keys to trigger shift, tab, backspace, etc. Making everything 1u will really simplify things!
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #119 on: Sun, 05 April 2015, 21:15:32 »

Lastly, as for Pulp Fiction, it's one of my favorites, and was indeed the source for my selected numbers. It's probably about as opposite from Lady and the Tramp as you can get, though, so it just depends on if you are in the mood. I haven't given much of Tarantino's newer stuff a chance, because they all look so dumbed down for mass consumption, but Pulp Fiction is definitely an intelligent and hilarious movie if you can get past the comical violence.

I admit, I didn't give Pulp Fiction enough time to properly critique it but I don't think I am much of a Tarantino fan. I did like Inglorious Basterds but I think my sentiments are driven by Christoph Waltz' performance. Much like Anthony Hopkin's Hannibal Lector in Silence of the Lambs and Daniel Day Lewis' Daniel Plainview in There Will be Blood, I find the charismatic, delightfully sophisticated scoundrel to be mesmerizing, entertaining and, at times, down right humorous on film. In real life I can't imagine a more undesirable, corrupt narcissistic type of personality but, hey, it's the movies. 

Don�t be afraid to exploit people�s generosity� .


Thanks again for the nudge. Right now I have just a few hurdles to pass.

First, I will need to modify the layout structure I've used on the PortaPlop to work with the Alumaplop.  Ben (ic07) helped me on the PortaPlop and has already kindly offered his skills on this as well. Ben did the foundational work on the ErgoDox firmware and tweaked it a bit to fit my requirements.  Ben is a great guy and typical of many of the skilled and generous people on the GH roster.

Second, if anyone has any black or grey ML, 1u blanks that they would like to contribute to the cause, it would save me the trouble of casting them.

And last, if anyone has a time stretcher, I could sure use one. It seems like I have more plans than time. By the time I finish work and take care of family/social obligations it seems like there's little time left. Actually that's not quite true. There's time, but either I'm too exhausted, my eyes are to fatigued to do anything productive or my brain just needs to rest. (Violin plays a sympathetic tune in the background)

If/when I do another keyboard, I will gladly welcome help on PCB design if there is anyone who would like to collaborate on a keyboard project. Right now however, I've got my plate full finishing this one.

berzerkfan– What keyboard do you use the 1u modifier and thumb caps on?   BTW, every time I read your name I think of a line from the restaurant scene in the movie Billy Jack. Have you seen it?  Takes me back 45 years

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #120 on: Mon, 06 April 2015, 10:21:25 »

Second, if anyone has any black or grey ML, 1u blanks that they would like to contribute to the cause, it would save me the trouble of casting them.


I've got beige with those funny tabs.  You need 'em?
More

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #121 on: Mon, 06 April 2015, 13:46:29 »
I think those would work great. I have cut off the side tab on some of my labeled caps and they look just like a single unit but what I really needed was blanks.  I'll PM you later today. 

 And you didn't think you had anything to contribute. ;)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #122 on: Mon, 06 April 2015, 20:32:22 »
If you need black blanks, you can also just use dye. PBT is pretty easy to dye, and black should cover up any existing legends.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #123 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 05:44:04 »
My limited experiences with dyeing plastics haven't turned out well. Could you direct me to a good "how to dye plastic" resource?

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #124 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 11:52:42 »
My limited experiences with dyeing plastics haven't turned out well. Could you direct me to a good "how to dye plastic" resource?

There isn't a dedicated page for dyeing resources, but I find this to be the de facto 'how to' for it.  I recently used this information for a successful dye job on my Model M caps.  For my successful run, the steps were:

1. Rinse caps twice with ethanol.  (I used a martini shaker)
2. Rinse caps once with water.
3. Submerge caps in near boiling idye solution - surface temperature measured by IR to be 85-95C during the course of the work.  I used a metal colander for the submersion and a bamboo skewer to poke down pesky floaters.
4. Remove when color is satisfactory.
5. Immediately rinse with water.
6. Polish with towel to remove remaining dye and extraneous material.

My caps did come out with gradient coloration, with darker color on the face and lighter color toward the base.  I suspect this is due to a temperature gradient in the solution.  The face of the caps were pointed down so the underside would fill with the water, sinking the cap.  Evidence from the linked thread suggests that warmer solution increases the dye setting.  This makes sense to produce a gradient since the solution was still on the heat source during the submersion.  For future work, to produce a more even tone color, I suspect it would be beneficial to do this on hotplate with a stir bar, or possibly use a pressure pot to raise the boiling point of the solution above 100C, remove from heat, release the pressure while stirring, then dye the caps.

Offline jacobolus

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Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #126 on: Tue, 07 April 2015, 21:45:05 »
Thanks guys for the articles. I haven't had time yet to completely go through them all but I will soon.


What kind of plastic were you trying to dye, and what type of dye?

I'm not sure of the plastic. I think ABS. They were white Sanwa arcade switches. I tried to dye them black and grey with Rit powder dye. It didn't respond so I turned up the heat . I got a light grey tint but at the cost of distorting the plastic from excess heat, probably near boiling.



If I try dyeing the caps it would be the stock cherry ones pictured above. Do you know the type of plastic it is?

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 08 April 2015, 00:12:16 »
Thanks guys for the articles. I haven't had time yet to completely go through them all but I will soon.


What kind of plastic were you trying to dye, and what type of dye?

I'm not sure of the plastic. I think ABS. They were white Sanwa arcade switches. I tried to dye them black and grey with Rit powder dye. It didn't respond so I turned up the heat . I got a light grey tint but at the cost of distorting the plastic from excess heat, probably near boiling.



If I try dyeing the caps it would be the stock cherry ones pictured above. Do you know the type of plastic it is?

Rit is dubious.  I'd recommend getting Jacquard iDye Poly.

To distinguish PBT and ABS, try a float test in tap water.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 08 April 2015, 18:46:15 »
If I try dyeing the caps it would be the stock cherry ones pictured above. Do you know the type of plastic it is?
Again, they’re PBT. :-)

PBT is much much easier to dye than ABS.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #129 on: Wed, 08 April 2015, 19:05:38 »
If I try dyeing the caps it would be the stock cherry ones pictured above. Do you know the type of plastic it is?
Again, they�re PBT. :-)

PBT is much much easier to dye than ABS.

Excuse my denseness. I thought your PBT comment was a generalization about their suitability for dyeing, not an identification of my caps.
That's good to know. One packet of black dye powder on the shopping list.


Meeting with my accountant Friday evening. I'm  planning on rewarding myself for all of tax prep. drudgery by treating myself to a weekend in the shop. Assuming of course that I still have a shop after I pay my taxes.
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 April 2015, 19:10:24 by kurplop »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #130 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 00:23:02 »
Excuse my denseness. I thought your PBT comment was a generalization about their suitability for dyeing, not an identification of my caps.
That's good to know. One packet of black dye powder on the shopping list.
Oh, I didn’t mean that in a snippy way.

One way you can tell they’re PBT is if you look on the bottom, they have the letters 'PBT' molded into the plastic.

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #131 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 02:36:57 »
Good to hear my dream of the keyboard coming together with all black keys is still alive.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #132 on: Thu, 09 April 2015, 22:23:40 »
Good to hear my dream of the keyboard coming together with all black keys is still alive.

The dye is ordered but no promises. I may save the black blanks to go with the clear aluminum shell of the Alumaplop part deux.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #133 on: Sat, 23 May 2015, 19:33:08 »
I'm leaving on a trip and worked all day to finish this up before I leave. Big thanks to the GH community for all of your advice and encouragement.

Ic07 bailed me out with his assistance loading and configuring the firmware but I still had a lot of issues I had to work through; bad switches, bad connections, fried USB hub,...

Everything works and I'm tickled!

101486-0
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
 
Excuse the dust and lint, I still need to get it out of the shop and clean it up.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #134 on: Sat, 23 May 2015, 19:40:16 »
More pictures
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 May 2015, 19:45:17 by kurplop »

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #135 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 03:20:37 »
That just looks great. Such a tiny footprint too.

So what's the plan? Use this as your main keyboard at home and also take it everywhere with you where you need to type?

Also, can't help myself: "This is the beginning of what is hopefully about a 2 month thread, detailing the completion of my latest project." Ť on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 00:58:15 ť

That's just the nature of these things :)

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #136 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 06:24:45 »
That just looks great. Such a tiny footprint too.

Thanks. It really turned out to be almost exactly what I wanted it to be; small footprint, very light weight at 1.3 pounds, extremely rigid, and it works.  Who could ask for more?

So what's the plan? Use this as your main keyboard at home and also take it everywhere with you where you need to type?

I think I may retire the ErgoDox and use this everywhere until I get another one built. That should only take about 2 months. :))

I want to get use to the different configuration. Primarily the absence of the far left row and the greater dependence on the layers.


Also, can't help myself: "This is the beginning of what is hopefully about a 2 month thread, detailing the completion of my latest project." � on: Thu, 08 January 2015, 00:58:15 �

That's just the nature of these things :)

I'm glad you said it. I deserve it. I knew I was being unrealistic when I wrote it. I could have kept that deadline but life has a way of throwing a wrench into the obsession machine.

Thanks for following its progress Zek.


Offline tufty

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #137 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 14:04:49 »
It's beautiful, the closest thing to perfect I've seen in a long time.  You should be very proud to have completed it in a mere 4 and a half months.


Offline neverused

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #138 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 14:46:46 »
This will be my vote for keyboard of the month for June. Beautiful

Offline absyrd

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #139 on: Sun, 24 May 2015, 15:02:20 »
I'm leaving on a trip and worked all day to finish this up before I leave. Big thanks to the GH community for all of your advice and encouragement.

Ic07 bailed me out with his assistance loading and configuring the firmware but I still had a lot of issues I had to work through; bad switches, bad connections, fried USB hub,...

Everything works and I'm tickled!

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
 
Excuse the dust and lint, I still need to get it out of the shop and clean it up.

Holy ****. It is done... and it is a thing of beauty.

I'm actually down with the choice of ML considering your goal of low-profile (despite that trackball being huge haha).

And I have a Yoga, too, which makes me realize exactly how compact it is. You do have huge hands, though. Video of you typing? :p
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline Zustiur

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #140 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 08:13:44 »
Woah, where did all the 1x modifiers come from? Did you print them yourself somehow?

Offline berserkfan

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #141 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 10:10:15 »
This is one of the greatest works ever on this forum. Unfortunately unlike other fora, this forum doesn't have 'applause' emoticons so I'll use a Japanese emoticon

m(_ _)m

(kowtow, indicating respect)

BTW I'm most impressed by the slimblade incorporation into the keyboard. I took apart my slimblade but could not figure out any reasonably easy way to get that done.
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #142 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 10:22:54 »
I'm leaving on a trip and worked all day to finish this up before I leave. Big thanks to the GH community for all of your advice and encouragement.

Ic07 bailed me out with his assistance loading and configuring the firmware but I still had a lot of issues I had to work through; bad switches, bad connections, fried USB hub,...

Everything works and I'm tickled!

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
 
Excuse the dust and lint, I still need to get it out of the shop and clean it up.

YESSSSSSSSSSS, IT IS FINISHED AND BEAUTIFUL. It's everything I was hoping it would be. Lovely lovely stuff!

Offline Blackehart

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #143 on: Tue, 26 May 2015, 10:52:47 »
*waits for a version with an analag pad instead of a trackball*

Shoryuuuken!

Offline pkircher

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #144 on: Sun, 31 May 2015, 12:25:35 »
as for hot dying abs (stubborn plastic) .. you can use acceton to the color water mix

the tester is crucial

there are ALOT of ABS mixtures and there is no 100% holy formular ..

i figured about 10-30% acceton works best .. of course take it slowley in 5% steps and babysit the caps .. !

hope that helps

amazing project .. i own a lathe and a 3 axis cnc . .but that would be far to much work for me .. i tip my hat to you sir

« Last Edit: Sun, 31 May 2015, 12:29:19 by pkircher »

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #145 on: Sun, 31 May 2015, 15:47:42 »
as for hot dying abs (stubborn plastic) .. you can use acceton to the color water mix

the tester is crucial

there are ALOT of ABS mixtures and there is no 100% holy formular ..

i figured about 10-30% acceton works best .. of course take it slowley in 5% steps and babysit the caps .. !

hope that helps

amazing project .. i own a lathe and a 3 axis cnc . .but that would be far to much work for me .. i tip my hat to you sir

Be careful with that method.  Acetone dissolves ABS, over-doing it could damage the surface of the polymer or the overall structural integrity (more prone to cracking under use). 

5% baby steps for sure

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #146 on: Sun, 31 May 2015, 20:55:22 »
Thanks for all the complements.  I've been out of the country all last week and had very limited internet access to respond.

And I have a Yoga, too, which makes me realize exactly how compact it is. You do have huge hands, though. Video of you typing? :p

My hands aren't that big, just old and beat up. They probably look bigger than they are because the Alumaplop is so small. I am planning on a video in the near future.

Woah, where did all the 1x modifiers come from? Did you print them yourself somehow?

They are all stock ML caps except the 4 built up ones in the thumb cluster.  I had to trim some of them that were stepped but that was a simple snip with the shears. I have many donor ML boards to harvest from.



BTW I'm most impressed by the slimblade incorporation into the keyboard. I took apart my slimblade but could not figure out any reasonably easy way to get that done.
.
Thanks. The Slimblade is actually pretty easy to adapt to a keyboard; at least the way I did it. PM me if there's anything I can help you with on yours. Most of the process is similar to the method I logged in my ErgoDox and Trackball Tray thread. One thing I did was carefully remove much of the Slimblade's internal structure but leaving just enough to mount to the Alumaplop's shell. In the end I used a urethane based adhesive to join the two together. I'm confident that it will remain secure but at the expense of making it permanent. The Slimblade takes a minimal footprint given the ball size and I stand by my decision to use it.


Offline exitfire401

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #147 on: Sun, 31 May 2015, 20:58:52 »
I'll take one in MX  :p

But seriously, I've been following this from beginning to end, and I'm ridiculously happy to see it finished. It's absolutely gorgeous, and I'm glad you were able to complete it!
Boards: Kingsaver Complicated Blue Alps |Sprit 60% Transparent MX Clears in Gateron housings with 62g gold Sprit springs lubed and RGB color shifting LEDs | Ducky Shine Zone MX Black with Blue LEDs | Realforce 10AE Variable Silenced

B/S/T thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55351.0

Past projects: KBT Race 2 L.E.
Past Boards: Ducky Shine 2 | KBT Pure | LZ Aluminum Skin| HHKB | Realforce 23u |

Offline Lain1911

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #148 on: Mon, 01 June 2015, 00:52:01 »
This is super neat!

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #149 on: Fri, 05 June 2015, 00:54:05 »
I added some pictures of the Alumaplop to my Flickr page.https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157651718823173

Most of them are in this thread but I added a few more and they're all together along with comments.

Offline Vibex

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #150 on: Fri, 05 June 2015, 01:25:07 »
Cool to see your still working on this. It was so cool at keycon last summer. :thumb:

Offline hoggy

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #151 on: Fri, 05 June 2015, 14:52:36 »
Kurplop, that's amazing work.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #152 on: Wed, 10 June 2015, 15:42:24 »
Thanks everyone.

 I've been working on an Alumaplop accessory and here's the teaser.
103206-0
I added it to the end of my Flickr page   https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157651718823173

By the way, my Keyboard Tray Evolution is less than 500 views short of 200,000. Why don't you check it out again to help put it over the top.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157633538408496/

Offline Zekromtor

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #153 on: Sat, 13 June 2015, 22:37:42 »
Looks really nice, and fun to type on. What do you line the bottom of the wood with? Fibreglass?

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #154 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 07:53:33 »
It's a piece of yoga mat. It's a little thick and I may replace it with something a bit thinner but it sounds and feels better with it.


Now for the 3 weeks observation report.

 -No regrets about using the ML switches. They allowed me to keep the keyboard much more compact than if I had used other switches but with tradeoffs.
      The ML isn't as smooth as the MX switch but I think that will improve as they wear in.
      I prefer the vertical spacing but the horizontal is just a little smaller than ideal for my hands. My preliminary tests suggested that, but I figured that I would get used to it and eventually I may. I think if I did another ML keyboard I would consider spacing them another .05" horizontally and live with the gaps between the keys.
     
 -I'm glad I used the Slimblade in spite of its size and weight.
      I was concerned the large trackball would have made it too big and cumbersome for travel but that has not proven to be the case. I also assumed that I'd have to remove the trackball  to transport but it fits fine in the bag with the laptop.
      Because of the emphasis on compactness, I kept the space between the trackball and keys to a minimum. When I make its permanent desktop companion I may choose to separate them a bit more.
      I don't like the placement of the 3 bottom trackball buttons but space didn't permit mimicking the diamond pattern on my old tray.

 - I'm still getting use to the layout which is why I decided to use it exclusively until it becomes second nature. It takes me an unusually long time to get use to any changes.

Offline Stargorn

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #155 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 19:37:02 »
It's just beautiful. Thank you so much for keeping a public record of this.


1987 IBM Model M (1391401),  Apple M0110A (Mitsumi Type 1),  Apple Desktop Bus Keyboard (White Monterey),  Ducky Mini YoTH (MX Reds),  Ducky Zero TKL (MX Blues)

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #156 on: Sun, 14 June 2015, 22:01:50 »
It's my pleasure. Thank you and welcome to Geekhack.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #157 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 08:45:14 »
Thanks everyone.

 I've been working on an Alumaplop accessory and here's the teaser.
(Attachment Link)
I added it to the end of my Flickr page   https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157651718823173

By the way, my Keyboard Tray Evolution is less than 500 views short of 200,000. Why don't you check it out again to help put it over the top.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157633538408496/

YES MORE MACHINING PORN. MORE. I WANT TO BATHE IN THE CHIPS.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #158 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:13:14 »
Thanks everyone.

 I've been working on an Alumaplop accessory and here's the teaser.
(Attachment Link)
I added it to the end of my Flickr page   https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157651718823173

By the way, my Keyboard Tray Evolution is less than 500 views short of 200,000. Why don't you check it out again to help put it over the top.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurplop/sets/72157633538408496/

YES MORE MACHINING PORN. MORE. I WANT TO BATHE IN THE CHIPS.

You have inspired me. Plans for my next keyboard are in the works and this time I'm going to document the process in video. I already bought a clapper and a beret!  I'm hoping to do a 10 part series on YouTube covering many of the steps involved in making a keyboard. Tasks such as designing, machining, harvesting parts, soldering, PCB making, woodworking, and adapting/modifying parts will be covered. Nothing new or better than anything else out there but a full chronology of the process of bringing a keyboard from conception to desktop..

Don't expect anything soon though. I want to have most of the series shot before I begin releasing them. Hopefully by Christmas you will be bathing in rosewood shavings and aluminum chips!

Remember to wear eye protection when watching!


Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #159 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:15:07 »
* CPTBadAss is insanely excited

Have you considered getting a Go-Pro? Could be a great use for one.

And I put my perscription safety glasses on when I read this thread. Does that count?

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #160 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:19:14 »
Are they OSHA approved?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #161 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 09:21:35 »
If you're asking about the glasses, of course, provided by my workplace. If you're asking about the Go-Pro? I honestly have no idea lol.

Offline derezzed

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #162 on: Tue, 23 June 2015, 23:35:31 »
It looks a keyboard and an arcade cabinet got put into one of the teleporters from the movie The Fly, and the Alumaplop is the result.  I don't want this, I need it.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #163 on: Wed, 24 June 2015, 06:43:20 »
It looks a keyboard and an arcade cabinet got put into one of the teleporters from the movie The Fly, and the Alumaplop is the result.  I don't want this, I need it.

Do you think I should rename it the Brundleboard? I'm just glad that this mutation was for the better.

Update:   
    +  I'm getting use to using it and my speed is about as fast/slow as with my former set up. I'm pretty sure that the shorter travel and spacing will make my typing speed much faster.

    +? I'm really liking the layout but the jury is still out on the tighter horizontal spacing. 

     ? The switches seem to be getting smoother with time. I lubed them and I think the viscosity was a bit heavier than ideal.

Would I use ML's again?  I'm not sure. I think time will tell. For a portable keyboard it makes a lot of sense because of the much lower profile. If I made custom sized keycaps it would be easy to make the vertical spacing tighter; I think .60" to .65" would be perfect. If I used them on my next desktop keyboard, it will be for consistency in muscle memory.

Overall the Alumaplop is a keeper. I'm using it exclusively and am really enjoying it. It's more travel friendly than I could have hoped for. It feels great. It has a great thocky sound and the trackball, while not for everyone, is perfect for me.

Offline yobinad

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #164 on: Wed, 08 July 2015, 19:48:19 »
Impressive work  :eek:

That requires many knowledge in diverse areas. I wanna be like you when i grow up  :D

Congratulations  :thumb:

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #165 on: Wed, 08 July 2015, 20:30:15 »
Impressive work  :eek:

That requires many knowledge in diverse areas. I wanna be like you when i grow up  :D

Congratulations  :thumb:

And I want to be young again. ;) 

Thanks.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #166 on: Fri, 31 July 2015, 06:19:58 »
Update:   
    +  I'm getting use to using it and my speed is about as fast/slow as with my former set up. I'm pretty sure that the shorter travel and spacing will make my typing speed much faster.

    +? I'm really liking the layout but the jury is still out on the tighter horizontal spacing. 

     ? The switches seem to be getting smoother with time. I lubed them and I think the viscosity was a bit heavier than ideal.

Would I use ML's again?  I'm not sure. I think time will tell. For a portable keyboard it makes a lot of sense because of the much lower profile. If I made custom sized keycaps it would be easy to make the vertical spacing tighter; I think .60" to .65" would be perfect. If I used them on my next desktop keyboard, it will be for consistency in muscle memory.

It's been 3 weeks since my last evaluation and I thought I'd update it.

I do think there is something to the shorter travel and spacing. I'm typing faster (less slower) than I ever was before.

I'm fine with the 0.70" horizontal spacing although if I was designing from scratch I would keep the standard 0.75".

The ML's are a bit of a letdown. I was hoping they would improve but they don't give nearly as satisfying a typing experience as many of  the alternatives. I'm still using it exclusively and don't think it was a mistake using the ML's because it keeps the board much less bulky; a good quality for a keyboard that will not be confined to the desktop. I'm just saying that there is definitely a compromise in the feel of the switch to achieve the compactness.

So it looks like it's back to the drawing board. :'(
107012-0
Just kidding. ;D

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #167 on: Fri, 31 July 2015, 06:24:08 »
Feel free to send the garbage over this way for proper disposal!

Offline Oobly

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #168 on: Fri, 31 July 2015, 08:44:45 »
Thanks for the progress report and sharing your experiences!

I've found stock ML's to be a bit disappointing myself for a number of reasons:
1. They're scratchy.. worse than Browns in my experience.
2. With the shorter travel and hard bottom out I find I experience a bit more finger shock with them than my MX boards, although I'm sure I could get used to the shorter travel and not have a problem with this in time.
3. The off-axis increase in friction is distracting. The narrower spacing on most ML boards means the key centres are not where you're used to, so off-axis hits occur often. This causes them to have more friction in the best cases and almost get stuck in the worst cases and can really break my flow when typing.
4. The stock keycaps are decent, but a little loose and this contributes to the off-axis "stiction".

So I played around with them a bit and have managed to improve them enough to actually enjoy them.

1. Lubing them does wonders. It reduces the scratchiness to almost nothing. Even better, it reduces off-axis friction a LOT. I have yet to try "proper" Krytox on them, but my tests with silicone lube (quite thin) have worked nicely.
2. Adding a really thin (around 0.2mm I'd guess?) slice from a silicone oring as a "trampoline mod" in the centre tube helps a lot with bottom-out shock.
3. With an "in-between" spacing, 18.5mm, I found I hit them off-centre much less.
4. I got some samples of Family13 keycaps from SP and they are better than the stock ones (although quite expensive if you're just ordering a few).

With the top 2 mods I really enjoy using ML switches. They're not as nice as my plate mounted, 62g, stickered, lubed, trampoline modded ErgoClears with SA keycaps in an aluminium case, but they're not all that far off.. Without the mods I just can't use them for very long without massive frustration. The biggest problem is I find they're a real pain to dismantle when mounted on a PCB, but it can be done if you're patient. So I recommend trying lubing and trampolines if you want to "revive" your board.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #169 on: Fri, 31 July 2015, 09:50:23 »
I think that I goofed when I did a partial lube. I was able to pretty well lube most of the rub points just by lubing the stem. I mixed 2 different krytox lubes, one very thin oil and the other more of a grease viscosity, I think the mix was to thick because it actually made it feel stickier than before. I may have to pull them all apart to fix the problem but in the meantime I'm hoping it will improve on its own.

If I do take them apart I'll be able to fully lube the remaining areas. I think the only thing left is the stem shaft. Am I right?

Offline Oobly

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #170 on: Mon, 03 August 2015, 05:37:25 »
I think that I goofed when I did a partial lube. I was able to pretty well lube most of the rub points just by lubing the stem. I mixed 2 different krytox lubes, one very thin oil and the other more of a grease viscosity, I think the mix was to thick because it actually made it feel stickier than before. I may have to pull them all apart to fix the problem but in the meantime I'm hoping it will improve on its own.

If I do take them apart I'll be able to fully lube the remaining areas. I think the only thing left is the stem shaft. Am I right?

That sounds right. I had varying success with lubing different points and the best result I had was when I submerged the whole slider in the lube. There are a lot of contact points (vertical slider areas on both sides, contact bumps, tube and post, etc) and just dunking the slider in the lube is less effort than "painting" lube on all the contact areas. This is the technique I use for bulk lubing. Just drop the sliders in a jar with the lube when dismantling and pull them out with pliers when reassembling, but it means you need a decent amount of lube.

I'm using a thin silicone fluid, not sure the actual viscosity, but it's quite similar to water.

Here is a post by Bro Caps showing the lube points, incidentally he mentions using GPL100 for his ML switches: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34332.msg820919#msg820919

I really hope this works for you, as the Alumaplop is such a beautiful board and deserves a long and fruitful life! :)

A related thought on lubing and wear: I have tried new ML switches and "worn-in" ML switches, expecting the older, worn in ones to be smoother, but they aren't. It seems they don't really wear in and get smooth like MX switches do, so lubing them can be done at any point. I like to wear in my MX switches before lubing.

PS - I wish SP made a more contoured profile of caps for ML so we could get a contoured finger surface using a flat PCB like SA profile Row 1, Row 3, inverted Row 1.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #171 on: Mon, 03 August 2015, 10:02:32 »
Thanks for the lube details and the hope that the smoothness can be further improved. I may wait until I finish the next project before lubing them because at this point I can't stand typing on anything else and I'm so slow it may take days to properly clean and lube it.

Offline kurplop

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Re: The Alumaplop, a compact keyboard/trackball combo in process
« Reply #172 on: Thu, 12 November 2015, 14:13:11 »
Just a little evidence to show that the Alumaplop is being used often.
117065-0Fortunately, I have many replacement caps