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Offline pseudolobster

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Who wants some wang?
« on: Wed, 30 September 2009, 20:37:11 »
5 WANG Computer model 724 keyboards are for sale at $20 each:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200389002012

They have pink alps sliders. I've never used one of these keyboards, though I'm tempted to buy one just so I can tell people "check out my WANG"
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #1 on: Wed, 30 September 2009, 21:50:16 »
Wow, what a horrible layout...
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #2 on: Wed, 30 September 2009, 22:03:14 »
i don't know guys, those wangs look pretty slick.  granted, they're a little yellow with age...
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #3 on: Thu, 01 October 2009, 07:36:04 »
Crikey, that's a wierd setup. Who needs 32 F keys?

Anyway, because of the title you've left me no choice but to trot out VG Cats again...
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Offline pseudolobster

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« Reply #4 on: Thu, 01 October 2009, 23:53:36 »
Quote from: msiegel;121935
i don't know guys, those wangs look pretty slick.  granted, they're a little yellow with age...

I*spilled*beer*in*my*M13*,*using*onscreen*KB,*or*I'd*elaborate,*but:
http://hackaday.com/2009/03/02/restoring-yellowed-computer-plastics/
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #5 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 00:00:13 »
oh man!!
i hope it turns out ok :pray:
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Offline pseudolobster

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« Reply #6 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 01:51:58 »
By "onscreen keyboard" I mean charmap.exe, and apparently the "non breaking space" I chose was interpreted as asterisks...

I think the keyboard will be fine though, I've had lots of experience spilling things on model M's before, and I'm pretty sure I unplugged before it caused any damage. It was making all sorts of ctrl combos whenever I pressed anything between F and J, but I've had worse, and if I'm not mistaken, my 1996 M13 probably has the lexmark drain holes. I've unplugged it pretty quickly, wrapped it in a towel, and put it in the same space as my silica gel collection, so I think it'll be okay. (believe it or not I've actually killed a few M's)

Oh, and as for restoring yellowed keyboards, I was going to point out how great peroxide is... For under $20 you can brew up a batch of peroxide goo that'll turn a few dozen yellow keyboards bright white again.
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #7 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 03:59:49 »
If you have not used an ALPS board, grab one of those. It was my introduction to ALPS, and what brought me to this site looking for information.

IIRC, the Wang mapped all the F keys to a unique scancode, so they were all usable. But as I didn't plan on using it, i didn't set anything up. They use Pink sliders, and weigh a fair bit (Not Quite M weights, but no too far off). It is huge in comparison to most keyboards though, especially given the predicliction on this site for Tenkeyless/Mini's.
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #8 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 05:07:42 »
Meh. $30 is too much for simple curiosity.
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #9 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 05:22:33 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;122247
Meh. $30 is too much for simple curiosity.


No Such Thing! I bought this M13 out of Curiosity! (£75 UK!)

grab it. You can always pass it on to your local geek if it's not your thing. 32 F-Keys will get em going!
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Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s :

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #10 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 09:29:01 »
Quote from: ripster;122286
That's what you tell your wife when a porn DVD catalog shows up in the mail.

No. That's what you tell your wife when she finds the porn sites in your history instead of the DVD(s).
 
EDIT.  Oops, I misread ripster's post.  My statement still stands.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 October 2009, 09:53:57 by itlnstln »
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #11 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 09:48:00 »
Quote from: ripster;122286
That's what you tell your wife when a porn DVD catalog shows up in the mail.

Not gonna happen!

(We order online...)
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Offline TWX

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« Reply #12 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 12:08:43 »
Quote from: ripster;122033
A little high since you get repeats on some keys.  I got 18 extra scancodes to AutoHotkey with this keyboard in the range of BIOS Scancode 90 up to 118 but noncontiguous.  I guess if you count the modifiers....

Show Image


There's some details on the Wang layout here.


Should I feel bad because my dad (a Cobol programmer on an MVS system) still uses one of those keyboards daily?
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #13 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 12:43:10 »
Suck it, haters:
  • COBOL has been the dominant language for processing the world’s business data for more than 50 years!
  • CICS transaction volume (such as COBOL-based ATM transactions) grew from 20 billion per day in 1998 to 30 billion per day in 2002.” - The COBOL Report
  • $2 trillion dollars is the total investment in COBOL systems
  • 5 billion lines of new COBOL are developed every year
  • 80% of all daily business transactions are processed in COBOL
  • 70% of all worldwide business data is stored on a Mainframe
  • 70% of mission-critical applications are in COBOL
  • 15% of all new application functionality will be written in COBOL
  • 310 billion lines of software are in use today and over 200 billion lines are COBOL (65% of the total software)
  • COBOL is an anagram for BCOOL!
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #14 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 13:12:13 »
Quote
Uh.... I woulda picked a different animal to make your point.
Say it now and say it loud and all that...
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #15 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 13:24:15 »
I've heard that Java is the new COBOL
XD
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #16 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 13:34:30 »
Quote from: msiegel;122357
I've heard that Java is the new COBOL
XD

Yech...Java
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #17 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 13:59:53 »
:lol:
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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #18 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 20:31:30 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;122343
Suck it, haters:
  • COBOL has been the dominant language for processing the world’s business data for more than 50 years!
  • CICS transaction volume (such as COBOL-based ATM transactions) grew from 20 billion per day in 1998 to 30 billion per day in 2002.” - The COBOL Report
  • $2 trillion dollars is the total investment in COBOL systems
  • 5 billion lines of new COBOL are developed every year
  • 80% of all daily business transactions are processed in COBOL
  • 70% of all worldwide business data is stored on a Mainframe
  • 70% of mission-critical applications are in COBOL
  • 15% of all new application functionality will be written in COBOL
  • 310 billion lines of software are in use today and over 200 billion lines are COBOL (65% of the total software)
  • COBOL is an anagram for BCOOL!
Show Image


To me, one of the big problems is that where do you learn COBOL?

The CS classes all tend to be "philosophy-powered language of the week"  (Pascal in the 80s, C++ in the 90s, Java in the 2000s), except for the obligatory week of LISP or Prolog to say "Yes, these are Turing-complete too."

It's almost a craft with apprenticeship rather than a skill with normal instruction anymore.
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #19 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 20:33:30 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;122440
To me, one of the big problems is that where do you learn COBOL?

The CS classes all tend to be "philosophy-powered language of the week"  (Pascal in the 80s, C++ in the 90s, Java in the 2000s), except for the obligatory week of LISP or Prolog to say "Yes, these are Turing-complete too."

It's almost a craft with apprenticeship rather than a skill with normal instruction anymore.

Umm...since when hasn't CS been like that? COBOL seems to be a language that is learned quickly, for business use, rather than formally taught, as Pascal, C++, or Java were and are.
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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #20 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 21:15:27 »
Quote from: timw4mail;122441
Umm...since when hasn't CS been like that? COBOL seems to be a language that is learned quickly, for business use, rather than formally taught, as Pascal, C++, or Java were and are.


I always assumed that COBOL was a very different metaphor from C-style languages.
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #21 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 21:47:55 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;122445
I always assumed that COBOL was a very different metaphor from C-style languages.

I'm sure it is, that's why its easy to learn quickly. C-style languages require learning austere syntax conventions.
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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #22 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 21:51:39 »
but COBOL requires prepositions.
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #23 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 22:10:02 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;122453
but COBOL requires prepositions.

I thought COBOL was supposed to sound most like natural language compared to other programming languages.
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Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
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Offline TWX

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« Reply #24 on: Fri, 02 October 2009, 23:21:55 »
Quote from: timw4mail;122441
Umm...since when hasn't CS been like that? COBOL seems to be a language that is learned quickly, for business use, rather than formally taught, as Pascal, C++, or Java were and are.


Dad got his degree in Computing Science in 1973, so his manuals and the IBM System/36 he learned on dated to at latest 1969.  He learned COBOL and Fortran on punch cards and punched tape.  He still had the books when I was a kid getting into BBSing, and I *think* they were copyright 1968.  The manuals were IBM publications and were as thick as any automobile factory service manual.

I guess back then they taught a lot more than just throwing someone in cold.  He did comment in 1999 about the odd prospect of fixing his own Y2K bugs...
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #25 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 05:26:05 »
I've worked in many different languages over the last 30 years - from assembler to Ada - and I don't think any general-purpose language is easier to learn than any other. I also think a good programmer is a good programmer. The things that make a good programmer are habitual and will emerge in any language; the things that make a bad programmer are also habitual and will also emerge in any language.

It's not that COBOL is easier to learn and use, but that the applications COBOL is suited for tend to be more straightforward. With a little effort and understanding, you can make COBOL do pretty much anything. I can make mainframe COBOL sit up and beg biscuits.

Of the languages I worked in, I was only formally taught two of them: COBOL and Ada. All the rest I taught myself or learned over someone's shoulder.
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #26 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 11:45:14 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;122535
I can make mainframe COBOL sit up and beg biscuits.


"i can has moar biskits, plz?"

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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #27 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:10:14 »
How about a nice game of chess?
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #28 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 19:11:03 »
How about a nice game of chess?
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #29 on: Sat, 03 October 2009, 20:52:15 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;122722
How about a nice game of chess?


that's no wang, it's a wopr!
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #30 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 08:54:16 »
Quote from: msiegel;122745
that's no wang, it's a wopr!

That's what she said...
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #31 on: Mon, 05 October 2009, 18:51:16 »
After all this talk of COBOL, I fancy a bash (I disagree with C, not bad at ASM though I am years out of date, and BASIC? Love it, but it's damn slow).

Any links, tips, guidance (Apart from don't do it!)?
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Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s :

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #32 on: Tue, 06 October 2009, 04:59:11 »
There are plenty of free COBOL compilers out there that will give you enough of the language to play around. As I mentioned: I'm a mainframe COBOL guy; so I don't have experience with any of them. MicroFOCUS COBOL is the long-standing king of PC COBOLs, though. If I was going to invest in a 'real' PC COBOL compiler, that's where I'd start.

As far as advice on coding in COBOL, if you want to be good at it, read "Structured COBOL Methods"  by Paul Knoll. In my opinion, the Knoll book is a good general purpose book about planning application coding in general, and the concepts he suggests are basic object-orientation (encapsulization, abstraction, etc.) and will work with any language.

The other COBOL book I keep on a shelf is "COBOL Unleashed" by John Wessler. The thing with the Wessler book is that it's an in-depth study of all of the features of the language; your cheap of free COBOL compiler won't necessarily support them all.

Good luck, and let me know if you need any help.
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Offline TWX

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« Reply #33 on: Tue, 06 October 2009, 16:01:07 »
Someone obviously played Shadow Warrior...
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Offline pseudolobster

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« Reply #34 on: Tue, 06 October 2009, 17:01:06 »
Quote from: TWX;123510
Someone obviously played Shadow Warrior...


Yep, sure did. I was hoping someone would catch that reference, otherwise it just sounds like I was trying to make a dirty joke.



Quote from: Shawn Stanford;122818
That's what she said...


Haha oh wow. Well played. I never would have guessed a discussion about a defunct computer company's keyboards and a discussion about an antiquated programming language and a reference to an obscure 80's movie would be such a great setup for a joke.
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Offline TWX

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« Reply #35 on: Tue, 06 October 2009, 17:51:54 »
This is the Internet!  Nothing is obscure!

"I had to sell my property to pay property taxes"  Can anyone name the film?
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 06 October 2009, 20:01:29 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;123368
There are plenty of free COBOL compilers out there that will give you enough of the language to play around. As I mentioned: I'm a mainframe COBOL guy; so I don't have experience with any of them. MicroFOCUS COBOL is the long-standing king of PC COBOLs, though. If I was going to invest in a 'real' PC COBOL compiler, that's where I'd start.

As far as advice on coding in COBOL, if you want to be good at it, read "Structured COBOL Methods"  by Paul Knoll. In my opinion, the Knoll book is a good general purpose book about planning application coding in general, and the concepts he suggests are basic object-orientation (encapsulization, abstraction, etc.) and will work with any language.

The other COBOL book I keep on a shelf is "COBOL Unleashed" by John Wessler. The thing with the Wessler book is that it's an in-depth study of all of the features of the language; your cheap of free COBOL compiler won't necessarily support them all.

Good luck, and let me know if you need any help.


Cheers, I will look at those.

Maybe COBOL will suit me better than C and it's variants.
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Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s :

Offline erricrice

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« Reply #37 on: Wed, 07 October 2009, 22:27:16 »
What's the actuation force on these things?  Similar to White ALPS?
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White ALPS: Northgate Omnikey 101-NCS(Real-Complicated)****Filco Zero FKBN87Z/EB(Fukka Simplifieds)****Siig MiniTouch(XM Simplifieds)
Black ALPS: Black Dell AT-101W(Real-Complicated)****ABS M1(Modded Black ALPS, Linear)
Buckling Spring: Model M 1391401(1988 & 1993)
Cherry Blues: DAS III Pro
Cherry Blacks: Cherry G80-11900
Cherry Browns: 3X Cherry G80-8113LRCUS-2
Cherry MY: G81-7000HPBUS-2****G81-3000LANUS-0****Modded to 20g
Rubber Dome: HHKB Lite 2 (White & Black)
Logitech G5[/FONT]
Erricrice\'s Song of the Day: Gorillaz - El Mañana
Yup, Blatantly stealing this from you Kishy, hope you don\'t mind, it\'s a great idea.

Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #38 on: Thu, 08 October 2009, 03:23:51 »
Having not used white Alps, I couldn't honestly say.

But, for what it's worth, the Wang needs less force than my M13, (after some serious cleaning, that was a really dirty Wang!)
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Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s :

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #39 on: Thu, 08 October 2009, 06:58:21 »
Quote
...that was a really dirty Wang!

Oh, you had to go there.
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Offline erricrice

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« Reply #40 on: Thu, 08 October 2009, 08:22:04 »
Hmm, anyone got any nickels?
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I\'m selling all my Shizz! Please buy it!

White ALPS: Northgate Omnikey 101-NCS(Real-Complicated)****Filco Zero FKBN87Z/EB(Fukka Simplifieds)****Siig MiniTouch(XM Simplifieds)
Black ALPS: Black Dell AT-101W(Real-Complicated)****ABS M1(Modded Black ALPS, Linear)
Buckling Spring: Model M 1391401(1988 & 1993)
Cherry Blues: DAS III Pro
Cherry Blacks: Cherry G80-11900
Cherry Browns: 3X Cherry G80-8113LRCUS-2
Cherry MY: G81-7000HPBUS-2****G81-3000LANUS-0****Modded to 20g
Rubber Dome: HHKB Lite 2 (White & Black)
Logitech G5[/FONT]
Erricrice\'s Song of the Day: Gorillaz - El Mañana
Yup, Blatantly stealing this from you Kishy, hope you don\'t mind, it\'s a great idea.

Offline InSanCen

  • Posts: 560
Who wants some wang?
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 08 October 2009, 14:58:43 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;123850
Oh, you had to go there.


Well, it was going to be me or Ripster... ;-)
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Currently Using :- IBM M13 1996, Black :
Currently Own :- 1391406 1989 & 1990 : AT Model F 1985 : Boscom 122 (Black) : G80-3000 : G80-1800 (x2) : Wang 724 : G81-8000LPBGB (Card Reader, MY) : Unitek : AT102W : TVS Gold :
Project\'s :- Wang 724 Pink-->White Clicky : USB Model M : IBM LPFK :
Pointing stuff :- Logitech MX-518 : I-One Lynx R-15 Trackball : M13 Nipple : Microsoft Basic Optical\'s :

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 770
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Who wants some wang?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 09 October 2009, 05:31:05 »
Quote from: msiegel;122569
"i can has moar biskits, plz?"


OK, what's a System/370 model 145 doing having a "System 360" sign on the top?
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Offline TWX

  • Posts: 79
Who wants some wang?
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 09 October 2009, 20:23:49 »
Quote from: quadibloc;124061
OK, what's a System/370 model 145 doing having a "System 360" sign on the top?


Probably humming away running MVS...
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TWX
C:\>echo y|format C: /q

Offline pseudolobster

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 33
Who wants some wang?
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 09 October 2009, 20:55:33 »
Quote from: quadibloc;124061
OK, what's a System/370 model 145 doing having a "System 360" sign on the top?


Just sitting there, being awesome.
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