Please help me find my next ergo board

[ergonaut]

Warning: Long post ahead
 
I'm not 100% satisfied with my Kinesis Advantage. I'll write up a more detailed post about that some time, but for now let me just say that the biggest downside to it is its insufficient tenting angle.
 
So I've started to look for a replacement. I've compiled a list of requirements here.
 
1. fully split

2. generous tent & tilt adjustment, preferably out of the box (i.e. without having to resort to DIY solutions)

3. preferably staggered columns, but would settle for symmetrically staggered rows or full matrix. Traditionally staggered rows are a no-go (never again).

4. must be available pre-built, no kits.

5. fully programmable, good layer support would be a nice bonus

6. "mechanical" keyswitches (you know what I'm talking about)

7. must have more dedicated thumb keys than traditional keyboards. Ideally, it should have at least four keys per thumb which should all be within reach without having to leave the home positions.

8. shouldn't be too expensive (yeah, right )
 
I'm not aware of any keyboards currently on the market that fulfill all of these requirements, although some come close. Let me list and comment some of them. Obviously, I haven't tried any of them, so all of this comes from looking at reviews and pictures online.
 
- Ergodox: The obvious choice. It ticks almost all of the boxes listed above. However, the thumb keys are much too far away from the home position of the thumb. I think even the ones that are meant to be used for space (and backspace?) are already too far away. Also, while it has staggered columns, I think the stagger of the pinky columns isn't quite enough to be useful; in this case, I'd actually prefer them to have no stagger at all, so I could just put my pinkies one row below the home row. Regarding the tenting/tilting, I have seen some models with a tent/tilt kit, but this doesn't seem to be available from all vendors; as I'm in Europe, I'd likely want to buy from Falbatech, who don't seem to offer such a kit. Also, I'm not sure if the max tenting angle offered by that kit is sufficient.
 
- Keyboard.io Model 01: This has one obvious downside: it isn't available yet. But from what I've seen so far, it could be a serious contender. I really like the positions of the thumb keys and the amount of columnar stagger. And the wood makes it good. However, the tent/tilt contraptions seem to be under development still, so it's hard to tell if they're any good. Also, I think it might get really expensive after everything is said and done. I hope they will offer a cheaper version without the backlighting stuff; I really don't need or want that. I'm a bit on the fence regarding the custom keycaps; if done well, they might feel better than standard caps, but it might also be an expensive PITA to get replacements for them.
 
- Diverge 3: The price is right on this one, which is a huge plus. The positions of the thumb keys seem to be better than on the Ergodox, but not as good as on the Model 01. As far as I can tell, there is no real tenting solution offered by the manufacturer, so I'd have to build that myself. Another thing I don't like about it is that there is no stagger at all between the index and middle finger columns, which doesn't make sense to me; my middle finger is much longer than my index finger.
 
- Diverge TM: Even less expensive than the Diverge 3. Matrix layout; not sure I'd like that, but I'd be ready to give it a try. It doesn't have a lot of keys; I'm generally OK with that, but I would prefer some more thumb keys (it would be a start to have individual 1u keys instead of the two 2u keys at the space bar position). Regarding tent/tilt adjustment, it's the same situation as with the Diverge 3; I'd have to cobble something together myself.
 
- uTron: Symmetrically staggered, which isn't ideal, but maybe OK for me. Decent, but not perfect thumb key arrangement. It supports tenting out of the box, which is great; but I don't think there is any tilt adjustment? Topre keyswitches; I never tried them and don't know if they age well, but they seem to be well regarded, so I'd be willing to take a risk on them. I don't know if it's programmable, but I think it is. I don't know any exact numbers, but I get the impression that it's hugely expensive...
 
- Esrille Nisse: not split, and not adjustable at all. But it does seem to have a decent tent angle and I think it would be suitable for the less-than-ideal desk height in the office I'm working at. Probably the only non-split keyboard I'm considering at the moment. From looking at the pictures, I think this has the best thumb cluster of all keyboards I know of. I also like the rest of the layout. Obscenely expensive.
 

OK, that's my thoughts so far. My questions to you are:
 
- are there any other keyboards I haven't listed which fulfill all or most of my requirements?
 
- is there anything about my assessments of the keyboards above that you disagree with, or anything I've missed?

- which one would you get?
 
- any other thoughts? Should I get a life, maybe? Well, if you got this far, maybe you should ask yourself that same question
 
 
Thanks!

[Phenix]

Ergodox ez

[algernon]

The ErgoDox EZ comes with a 15 degree tenting angle max, and that isn't much, definitely not generous. On the other hand, the thumb cluster ain't so bad: the 2u keys are very easy to reach when your other fingers are on the home row, and the innermost key on the bottom row is also very easy to hit with the thumb. I have been quite happy with these three keys for most thumb-tasks.

If it weren't for the Keyboardio Model 01, I'd recommend the EZ + DIY tenting, but the Model 01 is superior in pretty much every way. I have a prototype, which I'm using to write this reply. While I have not been able to play much with tenting, because this prototype doesn't have the proper parts for that. Mind you, it will allow for generous tenting, even 90 degrees, if you feel like it - and you'll only have to buy some gorilla pods. No clue how much tenting it will provide out of the box, though.

But, I'll focus on the parts which I was able to test: the thumb arc is definitely an upgrade over the ErgoDox's thumb cluster (my previous keyboard, and my daily driver at work is an ErgoDox EZ). All four keys are easily reachable, and four's quite enough. But if not, the bottom key on the inner columns is also thumb-reachable. It does not cost much more than a full ErgoDox EZ kit, either. The custom keycaps, personally, I love them. They are incredibly comfortable, they guide my fingers well, and feel good to type on - and the keycaps were iterated on since my prototype was built, so they are likely even better.

What you forgot about the Model 01, are the palm keys. Those are fantastic too. Oh, and the switches: Matias Quiet Clicks became my favourite switches very fast

As for programmability: both the ErgoDox EZ and the Model 01 are fully programmable, they have comparable feature sets, too, but the Keyboardio has a slight edge here and there. For example, we are building an application you can use to re-configure your layout, without having to compile and/or flash new firmware (and it will be able to do a lot more, too). I also find it easier to program the Model01, but I may be slightly biased, because I wrote a large part of the plugins for its firmware.

If I were you, I'd give it a month or two, and see if the Keyboardio is out yet, and what people think of it. It really is going to be the best option on the market in the very near future.

[tp4tissue]

There won't be the perfect aftermarket solution in ergonomics..

because of the many variables which may be unique to your home center setup..


Easiest most adaptable solution is vanilla ergodox..  I assure you the thumb cluster is not an issue if you are properly oriented to use it..

[profet]

I could do a custom ErgoDox build for you.

My shop: http://shop.profetkeyboards.com

Some of my previous cases/builds can be seen here: http://profet23.imgur.com

[Phenix]

There won't be the perfect aftermarket solution in ergonomics..

because of the many variables which may be unique to your home center setup..


Easiest most adaptable solution is vanilla ergodox..  I assure you the thumb cluster is not an issue if you are properly oriented to use it..

I know you posted a parts list for the dox tenting somewhere but I dont find it anymore. can you please link me?

Reason is Im gonna build a mitosis ergo board soon and want to add tenting..

[ErgoMacros]

Hi,
(I know that request is for tp4, but thought I'd chime in anyway.)

I just discovered Mitosis. What an amazing design.
If I were to "tent" it I'd add 3-4 tabs on each board, about where the Ergodox EZ has theirs, and insert variable sized machine screws in there.
I haven't tried out the spacing, etc, but that's the direction I'd head in.

Maybe this is the tp4 link you seek? https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88089.msg2395196#msg2395196

Cheers!

[F2a]

Cut the Kinesis in half and use hardware to tent it? Nothing will satisfy you out of the box.

[tp4tissue]

Hi,
(I know that request is for tp4, but thought I'd chime in anyway.)

I just discovered Mitosis. What an amazing design.
If I were to "tent" it I'd add 3-4 tabs on each board, about where the Ergodox EZ has theirs, and insert variable sized machine screws in there.
I haven't tried out the spacing, etc, but that's the direction I'd head in.

Maybe this is the tp4 link you seek? https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88089.msg2395196#msg2395196

Cheers!

Apologies, I had missed the previous posts..

This is what I use for tenting.


50mm stainless steel bolt

100mm high tensile bolt  (high tensile, they often come a bit bent at this length, so you'd need to buy a small pack of 20 to get a couple of straight ones)

m3 coupler (from m3 standoff kit on amazon)



All these items are used in conjunction to form the Inner standoff, 

You want the Stainless steel bolt on top because it can be Bent to be perpendicular to the table surface. (giving you more space between the keyboards)

--the high tensile will not bend, it will break if you try. which is why you need that 50mm stainless segment


The coupler kit doesn't come with m3 nuts, so you need a pack of m3 nuts.

[jacobolus]

You’re not going to find it. A chopped-in-half Kinesis (or Maltron) or a keyboardio are your best bets. If you want something beyond those, you’re going to have to build it yourself.

Or you could pay out the nose and contract someone to build you something bespoke.

[ErgoMacros]

OK, had another thought about "tenting" Mitosis and similar ergo-split keyboards.
How about repurposing iPhone / iPad tablet stands.
Skimming Amazon I saw these three possibilities... all just under $9.00US each to try even though you'll end up needing two.
Also, they only move around 1 axis so the kbd can lift in the center but not vary front to back.

I estimate the Mitosis keyboard PCB to be about:
   Width:   4"
   Height:   4.125"
   Depth:   0.27 (not counting switches on top, or wireless board on the bottom)

This: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N1WC7AT is Aluminum, GVDV, 4.7 x 3.1 x 0.5 inches

This: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HHEAMXC Aluminum, and maybe plastic. Nice angular locking at any position.  4" wide x 3.5" high x 3/4" deep when closed;

And this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006ZT4VA0 All plastic. Different "3-arm" design.

All 3 fold flat or compact for travel... and if it's close I guess you could 3D print to the size you need. (Much more $$$)

[vvp]

@ergonaut:
If you do not want to built it yourself then just chop Kinesis. I considered doing it myself but I went for a custom design to save some space. Tenting an Ergodox is easy too.

[tp4tissue]

OK, had another thought about "tenting" Mitosis and similar ergo-split keyboards.
How about repurposing iPhone / iPad tablet stands.
Skimming Amazon I saw these three possibilities... all just under $9.00US each to try even though you'll end up needing two.
Also, they only move around 1 axis so the kbd can lift in the center but not vary front to back.

I estimate the Mitosis keyboard PCB to be about:
   Width:   4"
   Height:   4.125"
   Depth:   0.27 (not counting switches on top, or wireless board on the bottom)

This: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N1WC7AT is Aluminum, GVDV, 4.7 x 3.1 x 0.5 inches

This: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HHEAMXC Aluminum, and maybe plastic. Nice angular locking at any position.  4" wide x 3.5" high x 3/4" deep when closed;

And this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006ZT4VA0 All plastic. Different "3-arm" design.

All 3 fold flat or compact for travel... and if it's close I guess you could 3D print to the size you need. (Much more $$$)

Good idea for portable, buhhh.. they'll probably fall over as a keyboard stand.



and raising the outside edge is not good, because you'd need a higher wrist rest.

The increased height also requires a slightly lowered table if you want it at the precise distance below your elbows 'resting height" for best ergonomics.

[ErgoMacros]

Hi,
I was thinking something like this...
Almost desk height. Raised in the middle only.
Stand not used in the "usual/expected orientation."

(Pardon the quick/sloppy Photoshopping, please)

[tp4tissue]

Hi,
I was thinking something like this...
Almost desk height. Raised in the middle only.
Stand not used in the "usual/expected orientation."

(Pardon the quick/sloppy Photoshopping, please)
(Attachment Link)

well assuming those side caps come off easily , and the friction bolt can be tightened, it may work..

although i'm still in the camp that it'd fall over..

[ErgoMacros]

Yep, it might fall over, slide around on the table, feel unsteady... thought it might work though.
If I had a Mitosis I'd give it a try.
Not sure if it would support at the "golden 55 degree" angle :-)

[vvp]

Why don't you mount it on a ball joint? That will give you the biggest freedom setting angles.

[ErgoMacros]

Yes, that could work too, but it may take some work to mount it to the Mitosis too. It doesn't have a case as originally designed.
Still, worth considering.

[Phenix]

re Mitosis:

My Idea is to try to drill two holes to the inner edge, attach L-shaped piece of metal to it and then add 'Ergodox EZ' like tenting feets.

The real question is: CAN I drill somewhere?

[tp4tissue]

re Mitosis:

My Idea is to try to drill two holes to the inner edge, attach L-shaped piece of metal to it and then add 'Ergodox EZ' like tenting feets.

The real question is: CAN I drill somewhere?

if ur ok with drilling holes,  just drill straight down, and use m3 bolts..  even m4, don't use m5+ too hard to bend..

[ErgoMacros]

I don't see any space around the edges for drilling. I think you'd have to extend the PCB model before manufacturing it.

If you take a look here, there's not really any extra as designed: http://i.imgur.com/Bll1Esb.jpg

[tp4tissue]

I don't see any space around the edges for drilling. I think you'd have to extend the PCB model before manufacturing it.

If you take a look here, there's not really any extra as designed: http://i.imgur.com/Bll1Esb.jpg

ok for That, hrrrmm..  Hrrrrmmm..  can't do holes.

ur gonna need to cut some wood for tenting..

[ergonaut]

This is coming a little late, but after starting this thread, some other stuff happened which took away my focus from geekhack (shameful ****, I know )

But I have read and appreciate all your responses, thank you all.

For now, I'm not going to buy anything; the Kinesis Advantage at work and MS Sculpt Ergo at home are just 'ergo enough' to not worsen my RSI symptoms, so I'm going to wait and see what will happen with the Keyboardio and whatever else will be released within the next year or so before buying anything new.

Thanks again!

[Phenix]

before buying anything new.

just a idea: you can make the kinesis advantage properly programmable using QMK by performing a quite easy mod (in a nutshell replace the pcb and controller by a teensy)
here is a GB currently open as well
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7e0s0m/gb_kinesis_contouredadvantage_qmk_mod_kit_using/

IMHO QMK rules, as tap-dancing, multi-layer support and even LED controlling is possible with it..

[microsoft windows]

Don't buy any APPLE keyboards. They're very crappy.