Author Topic: The Living 3D Printing Thread  (Read 198747 times)

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #150 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 00:09:59 »
don't forget the upcoming photocuring printers. i can't remember the name of any of them at the moment but the basic idea is that you take a resin that cures under UV, you point a projector downward at a tub of the stuff, and you slowly raise/lower whatever it is you need to raise or lower to form a solid object.

basically the practical method behind additive manufacturing is to take a material that transitions between phases of matter (solid, liquid, gas, plasma), and bring from a non-solid to a solid in a controlled, compounding matter. this differs significantly from subtractive manufacturing in that you usually take a big old brick of solid stuff and hack away at it until it looks like you want it to. one was invented by cavemen. THE OTHER BY MEN AND WOMEN OF THE MODERN SPACE AGE
Resin is 15x the cost of ABS, I looked at building one.
The printers costs similar, but the resin costs will kill you.
completely different error profile, scale and purpose. resin photocuring has the potential to model additive photolithography. you're unlikely to want to make a safety cone with it (and you would have some definite trouble doing so anyway since you're relying on a chemical reaction that may or may not be malleable in terms of color), but you might want to make a the exoskeleton of a tiny robotic swarming bee.

the root of empiricism is trying to gain some understanding of the (inevitably stochastic) mechanisms behind physical processes, and then (or if you still don't quite get it) measuring until you have a reasonable approximation of the distributions on the inputs and a reasonable approximation of the process. as i've been pointing out incessantly, the mechanisms behind additive printing are completely analogous to those of subtractive printing with substantially different inputs.

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It's no more accurate than any other as it's all similar systems. It's just a Prusa or Mendel in a fancy box with better documentation and all the bugs worked out.
only in my wildest dreams. a few bugs are worked out such that you can print a traffic cone when you unwrap the box (or at least you may be able to). anyway, as i also have said incessantly, error analysis and correction is all incremental. a bridgeport is just a sherline in a fancy 3-ton box (this is not an exaggeration). but the weight of a bridgeport is essential to reduce specific kinds of error and produce the kinds of extremely high tolerance parts that power the increasingly efficient internal combustion engines and composite molding tooling that the modern world is made out of.

Quote
Cheaper ones have smaller print sizes, and depending on model, more or less tinkering required to make quality prints. Some also require special filament, which is normal filament, just wrapped in a fancy overpriced package.
what is filament? it's wire made out polymer? what's the composition of that polymer? what is the typical shape is the extrusion? what is the tolerance of the bounding diameter of the filament? the word fancy hides the details that drive the incremental improvements that need to be made to achieve that incrementally higher accuracy and precision that may be boring to some, but is extremely important in empirical science.

here's an example: the composite parts in a reprap designed machine are often made on other FDM machines to relatively low tolerances and necessarily lower material properties (FDM is not yet very good at making hard dense objects). makerbot inc invested in injection molding tooling to create denser, harder and higher precision composite components that fulfill more or less the same functionality. they invested in a casting mold for aluminum plates to make low thermal resistance platforms that can be machined flat (but of course they don't do that part, sigh. this is, btw, a very definite bug) and have relatively uniform thermal expansion properties. it's not fanciness. it's engineering. (well, i guess if you consider engineering nothing but fanciness you are wrong but only misguided -- there is nothing fancy about engineering. it is a horrid slog of tiny incremental changes, and it's also tedious and hard).

anyway, the point is, the difference between expensive manufactured things or expensive tools and cheap things/tools is all in accuracy and precision, either in manufacturing or some sense of error. there are some things that are completely cosmetic, but it's actually much rarer than you might think. fun example: the difference between a louis vuitton monogrammed hangbag manufactured to specification and the much more common cheap knockoff is the following:

grade and source of leather (softness, thickness, uniformity of grain, lack of polymer or composite filler)
panels are cut, aligned and sewed according to strict specification:
  seams must meet strength requirements
  distance between threads within tolerance
  not a single symbol can be cut off
  every symbol is at least some distance alpha of the edge of every panel once sewed

yes, it's a handbag, and machine-formed polyester will often fulfill the same functionality for a while, but vuitton bags are the kind of thing that are designed and manufactured expressly to be preservable and usable after sitting in peat moss for thousands of years, while loosely sewed polyester will last about as long as it takes for me to get it to it and mangle it in one of my crazy experiments.

i insist a lot of things, but i particularly insist that we respect the incrementalism of manufacturing on this board. this is a forum centered on exotic electromechanical switch designs for computer keyboards. incremental changes matter here. on this forum, fanciness matters.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 June 2013, 00:15:09 by mkawa »

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #151 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 00:52:35 »
now that i've gotten that lecture out of my system, can someone link dox's cad files?

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #152 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 01:43:34 »
What is filament? it's wire made out polymer? what's the composition of that polymer? what is the typical shape is the extrusion? what is the tolerance of the bounding diameter of the filament? the word fancy hides the details that drive the incremental improvements that need to be made to achieve that incrementally higher accuracy and precision that may be boring to some, but is extremely important in empirical science.
You missed what I was after there.

Go look at the Cube printer Office Depot sells, it's $1200 and designed only to use their filament, which cost far more than regular filament. People have hacked it to work with regular filament spools and it has no problem printing with it. The company does all they can to keep you buying their filament, just as HP and Lexmark do all they can to limit you to only their ink and not using refils. While it does give them some quality control, there is nothing special about it except putting more money in their pocket.


And if you think you bought a Bridgeport, you're going to be disappointed. You seem to have this idea that yours is somehow vastly superior, when I reality, yes, it's better than most, but injection molding doesn't improve everything. The accuracy and strength of the parts on mine wouldn't benefit one iota by being injection molded or even being machined from aluminum (except maybe the upper and lower plate). Accuracy, strength and tolerances are great, but only where it counts. You could align your bed to the wall with a micrometer and make the frame out of solid aluminum on a Bridgeport, and while cool and would last 1000 years,  it won't actually make you sleep any better once the cool factor wears off.

I think you have been reading and buying into the sales literature a little too much.
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #153 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 04:16:55 »
... all the diy printers we're discussing are all hobbyist grade. there is a high degree of experimentation required to print useful output with all these devices, and the only two materials that can be printed thus far are PLA and ABS (and then only filament)

And nylon and maybe more. But yes PLA and ABS are the common ones.

Offline vvp

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Re: Buying A 3d Printer for Geekhack (I Am)
« Reply #154 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 04:58:52 »
PLA is a nightmare to get right, it turns out I broke both 120psi pneumatic fittings that hold the bowden (feed) tube. Seriously, the fittings hold 120 psi, and I snapped the hell out of both of them.  :eek:
This is interesting. Lets assume 120psi is the typical rating for pneumatic fittings used in DIY 3d printers.
  • 120psi (i.e. about 827kPa) pressure rating
  • a bowden for 1.75 filament has about 2mm radius
That means the force rating of the fitting is about 10 N. Typical extruders (for 1.75mm filament) push with force in the range of 10 - 15 N. So we are overloading the fitting a bit. But still looks like your fitting had a defect since the safety factor should be at least 2.
Or you pushed the filament with significantly higher force.
Thanks that you document the problems you experienced. It is an interesting reading.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #155 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 05:18:34 »
What differentiate the $2000+ printers from the $300+ ones?
I would like to know too. The point is that companies charge whatever the market will bear. What they charge is unrelated to how much effort is behind the product and what is the product value to users. There is only a lower limit on price. That is the cost of producing the product. If the 3d Printer market is commoditized then you can expect that the price corresponds to the value. Is this true for the current 3d Printer market?

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #156 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 08:45:11 »
... all the diy printers we're discussing are all hobbyist grade. there is a high degree of experimentation required to print useful output with all these devices, and the only two materials that can be printed thus far are PLA and ABS (and then only filament)

And nylon and maybe more. But yes PLA and ABS are the common ones.
very cool. this is only a little higher than the temp that the MBI filaments are locked at, but that's a software limitation. i suspect there's some fudge that would allow 240C and maybe a tiny bit more without melting anything important.

and leslie, the MBI machines aren't even sherlines; have you seen the machining on one? they are very well made, and subtractive printing is something that is pretty well understood at this point. i just went into detail on how half my "turnkey" machine is totally bogus and i have to put hundreds into measurement, tooling and elbow greay to improve my heated bed ON TOP of the thousands that MBI spent to produce the heated beds.. the point i was making was exactly what i said, and abstract from our specific printers. we're still rolling caveman style here in 3d printing land, i'm afraid. even the 60 grand sintering machines are nowhere near as precise as a bridgeport (although the cost is appx the same).

hell, if damorgue wasn't under more NDAs than most apple employees, i'm sure he'd have some fun stories to tell us ;)


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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #157 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 09:58:15 »
You guys might be interested in Euromold and similar trade shows. A lot of manufacturers showcase stuff there. What is the diameter of your current nozzle and filament mkawa?







Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #158 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 11:18:03 »
rename it califormold and come to the us damorgue. i can't make anything with the word euro in it right now :P.

the filament is 1.75-1.8mm. nozzle is .4mm. also, grrr. have you guys built enough machines that we can get some time on them yet? :D

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #159 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 12:27:45 »
0.4mm was actually a fair bit lower than I had imagined. It should allow for some fairly intricate stuff. Was the cone printed from your machine? Can it stop ejecting the plastic and do separate parts without a connection between them?

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #160 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 15:03:19 »
yes and yes

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Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #161 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 15:26:59 »
What softwares are you using. You spoke of writing some stuff earlier, and I was just wondering what formats it supports.I am assuming that you input .stl files which it turns into code for the movement of the nozzle?

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #162 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 16:25:58 »
the only open source gcode generator that i know of right now is skeinforge. i'm planning on rewriting skeinforge for the purpose of rigorous analysis using formal methods. i'm also hoping to look at some of the open source CNC mill and lathe compilers as well. if you know of any other FOSS manufacturing compilers or can NDA me in on anything, i'm happy to explain to you what the goals and methods of this research are.

note additionally that the code i'm looking for isn't limited to compilers. i want SVD style stuff as well. if your stack involves signal processing or controls (especially exotic [read: non PID] algorithms), i would be overjoyed to have a look at it.

oh, and to answer your question, right now i'm using the full makerbot/makerware toolchain. they have a stack that's derived from skeinforge, replicatorg and sailfish (all FOSS) but a bit more plug and play with their devices. i plan on branching out once i have a better handle on things though. i am thoroughly armed with JTAG and remote gdb and not afraid to use it.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 June 2013, 16:27:56 by mkawa »

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #163 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 17:15:37 »
PLA is a nightmare to get right, it turns out I broke both 120psi pneumatic fittings that hold the bowden (feed) tube. Seriously, the fittings hold 120 psi, and I snapped the hell out of both of them.  :eek:
This is interesting. Lets assume 120psi is the typical rating for pneumatic fittings used in DIY 3d printers.
  • 120psi (i.e. about 827kPa) pressure rating
  • a bowden for 1.75 filament has about 2mm radius
That means the force rating of the fitting is about 10 N. Typical extruders (for 1.75mm filament) push with force in the range of 10 - 15 N. So we are overloading the fitting a bit. But still looks like your fitting had a defect since the safety factor should be at least 2.
Or you pushed the filament with significantly higher force.
Thanks that you document the problems you experienced. It is an interesting reading.
Glad to see some good come out of my posts.
As I have said, half the reason for building it was for the experience and there has been no shortage of that. :))

I actually broke both fittings (one at each end). At the moment the hot end fitting is holding with only half the teeth, the extruder end only has 3 or 4 teeth left I think (though I probably broke more late last night), I so am using a clamp/contraption of zip ties to hold it in place until replacements arrive. Unfortunately both are raising hell with retraction.

I ordered a J-Head this morning. Last night after I thought I had dealt with my cooling issues, the head jammed again. I'm starting to think the head I have is just complete crap. I insulated the very end of the head, and have a 50mm fan blowing right onto the Peek. I have seen people printing PLA with this head using a single 25mm fan.

I would consider it possibly being the filament, but the jams happen as things heat up over time. If I make lots of small 10 or 15 minute prints in ABS with cool down time in between, it runs fine, which is why I was able to make calibration cubes and such, but after 20 minutes or so, heat makes it way up the head and it clogs. On PLA it takes about 5 minutes less.


It's easy to get in over your head with a  D.I.Y. and I expected some. Actually, where I got stuck most was not where I expected, two were documentation problems (updated board, and bad instructions), and the head should simply work, but doesn't. Everything else was either finding a good tutorial, or figuring it out through logic.


By the way, I swear, I'm buying stock in a zip tie manufacturer, I've gone through around 200 so far (who needs duct tape!). I wonder, will the universe implode if my zip tie amount exceeds dollar amount?

and leslie, the MBI machines aren't even sherlines; have you seen the machining on one? they are very well made, and subtractive printing is something that is pretty well understood at this point. i just went into detail on how half my "turnkey" machine is totally bogus and i have to put hundreds into measurement, tooling and elbow greay to improve my heated bed ON TOP of the thousands that MBI spent to produce the heated beds..
I consider what you have to be more like a Cadillac with all the bells and whistles. The fact that you already found a bunch of issues (many of which go back to the design it's based on) just reinforces that idea.

As for the rest of my response, it sounded more of a lecture aimed at me than a complaint about your printer, your post after only furthered that belief.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #164 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 20:31:11 »
the posters in this thread have many years of engineering experience combined, leslieann. you can choose to ignore their suggestions, but it sounds like what you're doing isn't really working for you, so we have offered them.

fwiw, the first thing i would do about your extrusion head is buy or build a multi-input temperature readout device (fluke is overkill, extech is about right, no-name is not worth it. you will be using this a lot. velleman offers reasonably priced kits, although i think they still use PICs -- yuck. sparkfun or adafruit might have a more modern kit using an atmel MCU...), a number of contact (type K is imo the de facto standard) thermocouples with nice high thermal limits and reasonable accuracy (+/-10C is probably fine), and a roll of kapton tape, then measure the temperatures up and down your head device from the nozzle up to and including the feed tube coupler.

i'd also buy a very high quality and small DC clampmeter that can measure the amperage feeding all the power devices in your chain non-contact. these things generally push too much current for general purpose ammeters. this will cost serious money, as you'll want to be able to measure relatively small (10s of amps) currents with it, and the cheap ones are basically useless until you're pushing car motor starter current (3-500A). keep in mind that these all use hall effect (basically they're measuring the B field perp to the current), so you want a small, sensitive clamp. i haven't had the greatest luck with these so i can't offer more specific suggestions.

the only thing i can really tell you is that i generally don't buy constructed things if i can construct something comparable myself with reasonable effort, as i have far more invested in tools than i do in _stuff_. that said, i do admire your tenacity and persistence. you'll get there, but i will insist that it might take a bit of a change in perspective if you want to get there sooner rather than later.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline damorgue

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #165 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 21:23:07 »
I don't know much about code and software I am afraid. Looking forward to see what you guys will and end up with though.

Because thermocouples rely on measuring the voltage drop though it, they are sensitive to induced currents. Just keep it in mind when you place the wires along or around other strong electronics. Also, be sure to have the cold junction at a sufficient distance where you can be sure that the temperature remains fairly constant. Two points which you were probably already aware of but can easily be forgotten and may lower their accuracy.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #166 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:52:50 »
totally forgot about that actually. good points damorgue.

also, i find it odd that only mechengs really know and understand controls and tolerances and yet when they inevitably get turned into digital computations, it's completely up to a CS or worse, an EE to implement, and we know nothing about controls. it's quite silly actually, and points to a huge gap in both curriculums.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 June 2013, 22:56:51 by mkawa »

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #167 on: Wed, 19 June 2013, 23:55:59 »
the posters in this thread have many years of engineering experience combined, leslieann. you can choose to ignore their suggestions, but it sounds like what you're doing isn't really working for you, so we have offered them.

fwiw, the first thing i would do about your extrusion head is buy or build a multi-input temperature readout device (fluke is overkill, extech is about right, no-name is not worth it. you will be using this a lot. velleman offers reasonably priced kits, although i think they still use PICs -- yuck. sparkfun or adafruit might have a more modern kit using an atmel MCU...), a number of contact (type K is imo the de facto standard) thermocouples with nice high thermal limits and reasonable accuracy (+/-10C is probably fine), and a roll of kapton tape, then measure the temperatures up and down your head device from the nozzle up to and including the feed tube coupler.

i'd also buy a very high quality and small DC clampmeter that can measure the amperage feeding all the power devices in your chain non-contact. these things generally push too much current for general purpose ammeters. this will cost serious money, as you'll want to be able to measure relatively small (10s of amps) currents with it, and the cheap ones are basically useless until you're pushing car motor starter current (3-500A). keep in mind that these all use hall effect (basically they're measuring the B field perp to the current), so you want a small, sensitive clamp. i haven't had the greatest luck with these so i can't offer more specific suggestions.

the only thing i can really tell you is that i generally don't buy constructed things if i can construct something comparable myself with reasonable effort, as i have far more invested in tools than i do in _stuff_. that said, i do admire your tenacity and persistence. you'll get there, but i will insist that it might take a bit of a change in perspective if you want to get there sooner rather than later.

I don't exactly see how that equipment would have helped except confirm what I already knew.
The engineer sees things as an engineer, solve it with scientific testing and equipment, it's what you know. It reminds me of an astronaut joke. Nasa spent millions making a pen that writes in zero gravity, Russia used a pencil.

The parts I got were an assembled Arduino, Ramps board, and an industry standard heated bed. I have no interest in doing SMT electronics, so I bought them pre-assembled. You can't do everything yourself, you pick your battles and know your abilities.


As for the head, I found some the issue with the print head. The teflon liner shrank, probably from heat, apparently, it's a common but little discussed issue with this head. The other problem was too much retraction, I was sucking up a blob of filament into the teflon and getting stuck. I used a bit of my bowden tube to replace the teflon insert, and cut way back on retraction and I'm back to getting okay enough prints that I can make my J-Head mount and possibly even the magnetic arm parts I need.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 00:06:11 by Leslieann »
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #168 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:08:25 »
while we're telling engineering jokes..

engineers come in all shapes, sizes and competencies. there were many brilliant engineers employed by the soviet union. there were also the engineers that designed the yugo. there were many brilliant engineers employed by public and private entities in the US. there were also the engineers that designed the ford pinto. :))

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Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #169 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:22:10 »
also, i find it odd that only mechengs really know and understand controls and tolerances and yet when they inevitably get turned into digital computations, it's completely up to a CS or worse, an EE to implement, and we know nothing about controls. it's quite silly actually, and points to a huge gap in both curriculums.


My school tried to integrate the programs but I had no interest in learning any code until I started working on boards here.

And all these engineering jokes...I never heard the Pencil vs Pen one before

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #170 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:28:38 »
...and the first engineering joke i was ever told :P

Quote
Several professors were asked to solve the following problem: "Prove that all odd integers are prime."
Mathematician: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is not a prime - claim is false.
Physicist: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is an experimental error, 11 is a prime ...
Engineer: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is a prime, 11 is a prime ...

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline linziyi

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #171 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:34:01 »
...and the first engineering joke i was ever told :P

Quote
Several professors were asked to solve the following problem: "Prove that all odd integers are prime."
Mathematician: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is not a prime - claim is false.
Physicist: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is an experimental error, 11 is a prime ...
Engineer: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is a prime, 11 is a prime ...


......I don't get the joke..?
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #172 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:40:23 »
it's often told in a way that's less kind to the mathematician:

Quote
Mathematician: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, therefore, by induction all odd numbers are prime.
Physicist: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is an experimental error, 11 is a prime ...
Engineer: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, 9 is a prime, 11 is a prime ...

to explicate the joke: the mathematician uses formal reasoning to make a dumb mistake. the physicist convinced herself a priori of something and then looks for any and all evidence that it may be true and trots it out. the engineer... he is just dumb. :D
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:43:44 by mkawa »

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Offline linziyi

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #173 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:43:06 »
-_- didn't see the induction part
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #174 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 09:44:02 »
the first version didn't have it!

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #175 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:07:33 »
also, just fyi, the cadillac of home 3d printers: (yes, that's the power supply under there)


to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #176 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:10:15 »
the only open source gcode generator that i know of right now is skeinforge. i'm planning on rewriting skeinforge for the purpose of rigorous analysis using formal methods. i'm also hoping to look at some of the open source CNC mill and lathe compilers as well. if you know of any other FOSS manufacturing compilers or can NDA me in on anything, i'm happy to explain to you what the goals and methods of this research are.
http://slic3r.org/
AGPLv3 license
AFAIK, it is only for 3D printing.

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #177 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:21:13 »
it's often told in a way that's less kind to the mathematician:
Quote
Mathematician: 3 is a prime, 5 is a prime, 7 is a prime, therefore, by induction all odd numbers are prime.
...
to explicate the joke: the mathematician uses formal reasoning to make a dumb mistake.
He should have used COQ or some other theorem prover ...
... and his error would have been much more peculiar  :))

Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #178 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:24:34 »
As for the head, I found some the issue with the print head. The teflon liner shrank, probably from heat, apparently, it's a common but little discussed issue with this head. The other problem was too much retraction, I was sucking up a blob of filament into the teflon and getting stuck. I used a bit of my bowden tube to replace the teflon insert, and cut way back on retraction and I'm back to getting okay enough prints that I can make my J-Head mount and possibly even the magnetic arm parts I need.
What was the too big retraction? What retraction do you use now?

Edit: Hmm, J-head seems to be quite short compared to what I saw at the printer I can get to. I do not know how it's head is called.
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 13:30:50 by vvp »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #179 on: Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:04:00 »
Okay, here is a perfect example of the weird stuff I see online while researching things...

A VERY common claim is that "you need gear reduction for extruders, especially for 3mm" and "Direct drive is barely strong enough for 1.75mm filament".  I just looked at a store where they claim their stepper, which is a rather strong Nema 17 is "Suggested for only 0.5 mm hot-ends".

How much more strength do you need if the motors are already breaking other parts of the system. The only thing I can think of is that some of the motors people buy are junk.

At any rate, yes, you do want gear reduction for 3mm, because every step of the motor pushes tons more filament giving you less control. Some guys are even doing it on 1.75 for the same reasons.

What was the too big retraction? What retraction do you use now?

Edit: Hmm, J-head seems to be quite short compared to what I saw at the printer I can get to. I do not know how it's head is called.
J-Heads have about 20 different versions, some longer than others. Some use cartridge heaters, others have a different Peek end. They aren't just revisions, sometimes they are just options. Seems a bit much to me.

I was doing fine with 10mm retraction (which is default), this was fine, everything worked well, until I switched to PLA. When the PLA jammed, it broke the bowden clamp/fittings (and damaged the hot end's teflon liner). When I went back to ABS, I was trying to contend with the fittings having slop, and added extra retraction to compensate.

The extra retraction ended up moving hot ABS into the teflon which was already damaged from the PLA clogs. I think this was why my cooling was ineffective as well, since I couldn't overpower the hot abs heating it from inside. While I did inspect the tube when I unclogged the PLA, all I could see was a stain on it. It looked and felt fine. By the time I replaced it, it was requiring a lot of force to push filament through.

By replacing the tube, turning down temps and turning down retraction, I was able to get a dirty print that should hold the J-head when it arrives tomorrow. However by the end of the night, one bowden fitting had died completely, and the nozzle was just one clog after another. Those fittings really raised hell, I was pulling out metal bits of the fitting in chunks and I think they may have scratched the teflon liner, which not only gave the ABS something to grab, but also the shavings would have caused the nozzle to clog as well.

I never intended to keep the hot end even this long, but my work is often feast or famine (self employed), and the last 2 weeks have been slim so I had to conserve. Next week, will probably be feast again as I know I have at least one big $$ build and install.


Just some of last nights nights carnage (bits of the fitting I have pulled out).
|
|
V
« Last Edit: Thu, 20 June 2013, 17:27:43 by Leslieann »
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Offline vvp

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #180 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 07:33:02 »
The Rostock here does not have any problems with direct drive extruder. It uses 0.45Nm stepper with drive wheel radius of about 4.5mm. That represents force of about 100N. Should be plenty for 1.75mm filament and 0.5mm nozzle. It does not show any problems when printing at 6cm/s.

Here is an interesting info about forces required from an extruder cold end.
http://airtripper.com/1338/airtripper-extruder-filament-force-sensor-introduction/
Unfortunately he does not specify his nozzle and the filament.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #181 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 16:00:18 »
this thing is boss: http://www.amazon.com/Extech-SDL200-4-Channel-Thermometer-Logger/dp/B000CDMQIE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1371847857&sr=8-3&keywords=datalogging+thermometer

also, if you want a single device that will read a huge number of temperatures though, an arduino uno mega r3 with an adafruit datalogging shield and like 8 of the MBI amplifier kits will boss the **** out of that

http://store.makerbot.com/type-k-thermocouple.html (x8)
http://store.makerbot.com/thermocouple-sensor-v1-0-kit.html (x8)
http://www.adafruit.com/products/50 (x1)
http://www.adafruit.com/products/1141 (x1)

for power, just find a 5v wall wart from your junk box, surplus store, etc.


to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #182 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 16:03:18 »
the only open source gcode generator that i know of right now is skeinforge. i'm planning on rewriting skeinforge for the purpose of rigorous analysis using formal methods. i'm also hoping to look at some of the open source CNC mill and lathe compilers as well. if you know of any other FOSS manufacturing compilers or can NDA me in on anything, i'm happy to explain to you what the goals and methods of this research are.
http://slic3r.org/
AGPLv3 license
AFAIK, it is only for 3D printing.
this is brilliant! thank you!!!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #183 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:07:09 »
I use Slic3r (mainly because it's simple and I learned on it), but you will want to use something to verify the code. It's known for not always doing things right and I've had several things I fed into it and come out withing entirely different. Like a horseshoe shape coming out as three cylinders...

When that happens, run the design through Netfab or Willitprint and then rerun Slic3r. That fixed the ones I had issues with.



So last night I got to thinking about my setup before I tried PLA, and decided to tear the whole head/extruder assembly apart and start fresh based on how it was when I started. I tore everything apart, blow torched the nozzle, checked all the teflon, cleaned the extruder, and then I disconnected the fan. I pulled even more metal bits out of the system, I don't think I will ever use that type of fitting again, what a mess.

I ran a few extrusion tests and found with heat soak, that a temp of about 235 managed to extrude okay. So after a lot of false starts I have it printing again,  albeit VERY VERY slow. I'm getting a great quality print (when it pushes filament), but what do you expect at 15mm per second, which is all the system can manage it seems. I have the extruder power turned down so as not to blow out the bowden fittings again and the combination just can't push filament fast. At least it's printing and I can make a good mount for the J-head, I only hope it can finish as it has a habit of messing something up dead center of a print job.

I got the J-head today (it's tiny! much smaller than my current head) so once I get a good mount done, I will fire that up and put some of this mess behind me. Even if I have to go hand fab a mount from aluminum, it WILL be running this weekend if I can help it.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #184 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:08:23 »
I use Slic3r (mainly because it's simple and I learned on it), but you will want to use something to verify the code. It's known for not always doing things right and I've had several things I fed into it and come out withing entirely different. Like a horseshoe shape coming out as three cylinders...
that is so perfect for my project i literally want to cry with joy right now.

sounds good leslieann. slowing down is NOT a bad thing in any way, both the head and your methodology. increasing motor speed introduces a ****load of physical error, not to mention makes it much harder to deal with temperature issues etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. 235C is about the right temp for the filament. what i haven't been understanding is why you have so much heat and pressure in your extrusion system in general. if you've been trying to get it REALLY hot and then trying to cool it down REALLY quickly so that you can print uber fast, that would explain quite a bit.
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:11:46 by mkawa »

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #185 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:11:02 »
The Rostock here does not have any problems with direct drive extruder. It uses 0.45Nm stepper with drive wheel radius of about 4.5mm. That represents force of about 100N. Should be plenty for 1.75mm filament and 0.5mm nozzle. It does not show any problems when printing at 6cm/s.

Here is an interesting info about forces required from an extruder cold end.
http://airtripper.com/1338/airtripper-extruder-filament-force-sensor-introduction/
Unfortunately he does not specify his nozzle and the filament.

Interesting, I skimmed it a bit but will go back and read more of it.
He did mention the head, under a picture, it's a J-Head V9 clone (J-head is an open source design and tons of people are making them, some good, some not so good and in many wild variations).

His filament is 1.75mm based on the pictures (scale of teflon vs other parts of the extruder). I have an Airtripper extruder, works well, but it's much more complicated than some of the newer designs.


Edit: and of course the head decided to act up mid print.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #186 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:20:42 »
also the latest news on my end is that i have everything back together and i'm printing a bunch of traffic cones to use to push through the carpet under my machine + random pieces of acrylic that the machine sits on. it turned out that the machine was totally not level at first because it was missing a little rubber foot from the factory (HAH), and on top of that, all i really have to mount it on is 40lbs of random acrylic and a berber carpeted floor. so, traffic cones.

few reasons for this: my head to plate tolerances right now are around +-0.1mm and my head to head (remember, two heads) tolerances are about 0.05mm. with abs and a 0.4mm head, i should actually be able to do about 0.1mm slice heights, but obviously something's going to give here, and it does; i can't print on high qual because the head that the gcode is not targeting keeps running into plastic cooling on the bed. i now have a dial indicator with theoretical accuracy of about 0.003mm, and i've printed half the mount that can position it on the heads. i need to design the other half, print it, then bring my head to plate tolerances down as low as i can get them. how low is that? no frickin clue, but am excited to find out!

measurement!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #187 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:23:49 »
I use Slic3r (mainly because it's simple and I learned on it), but you will want to use something to verify the code. It's known for not always doing things right and I've had several things I fed into it and come out withing entirely different. Like a horseshoe shape coming out as three cylinders...
that is so perfect for my project i literally want to cry with joy right now.

sounds good leslieann. slowing down is NOT a bad thing in any way, both the head and your methodology. increasing motor speed introduces a ****load of physical error, not to mention makes it much harder to deal with temperature issues etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. 235C is about the right temp for the filament. what i haven't been understanding is why you have so much heat and pressure in your extrusion system in general. if you've been trying to get it REALLY hot and then trying to cool it down REALLY quickly so that you can print uber fast, that would explain quite a bit.

Slowing down is fine, but when it takes an hour to do what would normally take 15 minutes and it fails 45 minutes in, it really stinks. Most of my prints were done at around 40mm per second, that isn't exactly blazing fast to begin with. I'm down to 10mm now, and all in an effort to just get a print to finish and it's still not working very well.


I wasn't trying to heat it fast and then cool it, I was trying to maintain a stable temp through the print. I've determined that the problem is heat soak on the hot end. The Peek and internal teflon heats up, increases pressure on the filament and things come to a halt. If I lower temps and speeds, it takes longer to heat soak but still does. If I increase temp it heat soaks faster, either way, I don't get any further with a print job. Fans do nothing, insulation on the head did little. The head just heat soaks the same no matter what.


Oh, another thing about Slic3r, it will change direction mid bridge. As in it will go out over thin air, and make a u-turn. Interesting to watch, but doesn't work very well. LOL It doesn't always take into account what it's doing when it does it.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #188 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:30:42 »

I wasn't trying to heat it fast and then cool it, I was trying to maintain a stable temp through the print. I've determined that the problem is heat soak on the hot end. The Peek and internal teflon heats up, increases pressure on the filament and things come to a halt. If I lower temps and speeds, it takes longer to heat soak but still does. If I increase temp it heat soaks faster, either way, I don't get any further with a print job. Fans do nothing, insulation on the head did little. The head just heat soaks the same no matter what.
wait wait wait. slow down here turbo. i'm not sure what you mean by heatsoak, because i've only heard it used for what i imagine is a different meaning (heatsoaking in automotive terms is the process of thermal migration. with big old cast motor blocks it takes a long damn time for heat to spread). my guess on what you're saying is that you have filaments that you're pushing current through, and you have a thermistor somewhere (where?), but you have very little control over the temperatures in the head for some reason? the way this typically works is that you have a big fat filament, you have a simple controller (my meche friends keep telling me variants of 'i wasn't even aware there was an alternative to PIDs?!' sigh), and you feet the thermistor and the filament voltage into the pid with the filament voltage as the variable and the thermistor as the control target, yah? does this describe what you're doing? if not, please describe what it is that you're doing.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #189 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:33:54 »
also the latest news on my end is that i have everything back together and i'm printing a bunch of traffic cones to use to push through the carpet under my machine + random pieces of acrylic that the machine sits on. it turned out that the machine was totally not level at first because it was missing a little rubber foot from the factory (HAH), and on top of that, all i really have to mount it on is 40lbs of random acrylic and a berber carpeted floor. so, traffic cones.

few reasons for this: my head to plate tolerances right now are around +-0.1mm
You should be able to get head to plate down to about .0025mm, I'm down to about that. I'm also getting similar accuracy in x and y, so long as my belts are tensioned right. Still getting the hang of how often and how tight they need to be. This is still with sloppy arms.

As for a level machine...
I have personally witnessed a Thing-O-Matic swung completely upside down upside down while printing without error. Suffice to say, a sturdy table is more important than how level it is. Just make sure your internals are properly aligned to each other.
 
Traffic cones for stands? CUUUUTE!  I want pics! :)
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #190 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:39:59 »
i know right!

40lbs of acrylic is sturdy unless it's big flat pieces sitting on berber carpet. the idea is yes, not to be absolutely level, but to keep the whole 80lb combine from moving during a print. it turns out berber carpet is not very rigid :P

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #191 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:42:48 »
wait wait wait. slow down here turbo. i'm not sure what you mean by heatsoak, because i've only heard it used for what i imagine is a different meaning (heatsoaking in automotive terms is the process of thermal migration. with big old cast motor blocks it takes a long damn time for heat to spread).

My head has a peek tube, then a teflon liner, and then an inner teflon liner to adapt it to 1.75mm. The heat is migrating from the head, into the inner teflon liner, and starts to soften the ABS while still inside the teflon. The peek and 1st liner prevent a fan from cooling the inner liner.

I have pulled it out mid print (teflon and filament) and the teflon was scalding hot, and found the clogged ABS inside it. Basically the inner liner is only cooled by filament passing through it. I just pulled it again, and the ABS is melted 3/4ths of the way up the head, and even the bowden fitting at the top is warm.

I really hate this head.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #192 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:44:30 »
can you draw or link some kind of diagram s'il vous plait? i have ****ty spatial intuition

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #193 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:49:20 »
more pics of the cadillac. note the extremely high tech enclosure lid :))


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Offline BLJ Consulting

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #194 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 17:58:12 »
with molding machines "heat soak" is a term given to the wait time at start between when the thermocouples read the correct temperature and the entire screw and barrel can reasonably be assumed to be up to that temperature.  So, more or less what you said with the added element of potentially unmelted plastic waiting to snap the delicate screw head assembly.  Turn the screw before heat soak and you risk a 1 millisecond failure that take 2 hours and $1000 to repair.



I wasn't trying to heat it fast and then cool it, I was trying to maintain a stable temp through the print. I've determined that the problem is heat soak on the hot end. The Peek and internal teflon heats up, increases pressure on the filament and things come to a halt. If I lower temps and speeds, it takes longer to heat soak but still does. If I increase temp it heat soaks faster, either way, I don't get any further with a print job. Fans do nothing, insulation on the head did little. The head just heat soaks the same no matter what.
wait wait wait. slow down here turbo. i'm not sure what you mean by heatsoak, because i've only heard it used for what i imagine is a different meaning (heatsoaking in automotive terms is the process of thermal migration. with big old cast motor blocks it takes a long damn time for heat to spread). my guess on what you're saying is that you have filaments that you're pushing current through, and you have a thermistor somewhere (where?), but you have very little control over the temperatures in the head for some reason? the way this typically works is that you have a big fat filament, you have a simple controller (my meche friends keep telling me variants of 'i wasn't even aware there was an alternative to PIDs?!' sigh), and you feet the thermistor and the filament voltage into the pid with the filament voltage as the variable and the thermistor as the control target, yah? does this describe what you're doing? if not, please describe what it is that you're doing.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #195 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 18:21:40 »
Here is the head as it's assembled I left off the top mount.

Also here is a picture of the inner liner as it was when I pulled it out a minute ago.
As you can see the ABS melted 21mm up into the liner, and that is not counting the retraction. It should not be capable of melting that far up the tube.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #196 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 18:38:25 »
ah, yes, so it's the same thing. in the case of engines, the thermistors are in the coolant, and possibly in the oil (ideal, but apparently predictive models are the new in thing to save 30$ on the fitting and thermistor), but you have a huge amount of metal which is waiting to change size by a very significant amount, and oil which will not be pressurized or viscous enough to fill the final size tolerances of that metal until it reaches temp. i think we can beat you on this one, because rebuilding an engine takes about a hundred man hours, most of it measurement, parts replacement and re-machining of THE ENTIRE BLOCK (well, the active parts anyway). in the best case, the combustion chamber tolerances become so out of whack that the block just cracks in half in a big explosion and then you simply buy a newly manufactured engine in a crate.

anyway, i think i see where i was misunderstanding now. her temps are all out of whack. the things she wants to be cool are hot and the things she wants to be hot are cool. it does seem to be a design problem. that said, if she finds that slowing the process down (allowing more time for temperatures to reach steady state -- ie, allowing more time for heatsoak to do its thing), what i would guess is that there are two possibilities: first is that the design is fundamentally slow. my new understanding of what's supposed to happen here is that the filament is supposed to feed through the teflon liner WITHOUT hitting glass transition, then hit the filament, at which point it melts so that it can be squeezed through the nozzle. hence, what is happening is either that the teflon is getting too hot (your theory, leslieann) and causing the abs to hit transition too early OR the abs is not moving quickly enough at some/any point, and the filament at the heater is getting hot enough to melt the filament all the way up the teflon tube. now the tricky bit is that it seems to me that once either of these things happens, both will happen, and then the whole thing will blow up.

which seems to be what's going on.

that sound about right?

edit: ooh, diagrams! looking now.
« Last Edit: Fri, 21 June 2013, 18:40:32 by mkawa »

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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #197 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 18:47:16 »
is that blackened bottom part where the teflon slides into the peak? or does it actually slide into the heater (because that is bad.)

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #198 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 19:09:31 »
hence, what is happening is either that the teflon is getting too hot (your theory, leslieann) and causing the abs to hit transition too early OR the abs is not moving quickly enough at some/any point, and the filament at the heater is getting hot enough to melt the filament all the way up the teflon tube. now the tricky bit is that it seems to me that once either of these things happens, both will happen, and then the whole thing will blow up.

which seems to be what's going on.

Yes, now you got it.

The teflon does butt up against the brass nozzle, but they all do (otherwise it creates issues). The difference is that this end uses a huge metal end/head which encapsulates both teflon sleeves. There is no way to even begin cooling the teflon until it reaches the Peek material. This makes for a very large transition area for filament.

On my current head, the aluminum end/head itself is 25mm tall before it reaches the Peek, not counting the brass nozzle. On my new J-Head, there is 8mm of brass (not counting the nozzle), and then immediately goes into Peek. That is a a huge difference in how much you are heating up and how much heat you are trying to contain.


is that blackened bottom part where the teflon slides into the peak? or does it actually slide into the heater (because that is bad.)
That black strip is actually where the bowden tube clamped it, before I used it as a new liner. You can ignore that.
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Offline mkawa

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Re: The Living 3D Printing Thread
« Reply #199 on: Fri, 21 June 2013, 19:27:06 »
The teflon does butt up against the brass nozzle, but they all do (otherwise it creates issues). The difference is that this end uses a huge metal end/head which encapsulates both teflon sleeves. There is no way to even begin cooling the teflon until it reaches the Peek material. This makes for a very large transition area for filament.

here is the problem i have with this. teflon is a thermal insulator (among plastics it's certainly not the best, but it also has a very very high melt point and is slippery, so i think it's a good choice of materials here). that means that it's hard to heat up, but that also means that it's hard to cool down. it should not be getting hot, period. correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe what you just said is that the teflon does extend into the heated metal portion (unless the brass nozzle extends all the way up into the peek -- it is not clear from the diagram. imo this is a design error to me (but a fixable one). ideally, you want an instant transition from solid to very not solid when you hit the heater. that means no thermal insulator ever between heated portion of head and not-heated portion of head and then infinite amounts of current into the heated portion such that it is a theoretically constant 230C or so (ie, instaneous thermal recovery).

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