Are keycap profiles manufacturer exclusive? Are there fake keycaps?

[erit]

I've been learning about keycap profiles and noticed that only Drop makes MT3 sets and only AKKO makes ASA sets. The DSA and SA profiles were both created by Signature Plastics and they are also often the main source for them.

kbdfans seems to be the only place that sells DSA, SA, and many other keycap profiles but not MT3/ASA. Are keycap profiles exclusive to certain manufacturers?
So if anyone other than Signature Plastics produces DSA keycaps or Drop with MT3, does that mean it's likely a fake clone?

Are these other shops basically making lots of measurements to replicate the profile for producing their own sets?

[HungerMechanic]

It's important to differentiate between the classic profiles (largely from the 1980s) and the modern ones (typically Chinese).

The classic MX profiles largely come from Cherry (Cherry-profile!) and SP (DCS, DSA, DSS, and SA). The new profiles often are produced solely in China (MT3, KAT, ASA, SS2), even if some like MT3 were designed externally.

The reason I mention this is that a number of the popular classic profiles have actually been cloned by Chinese manufacturers, especially Cherry and SA-profile, and to a lesser extent DSA profile. This means that, yes, if you see SA, Cherry, or DSA keycaps not manufactured by Cherry or SP, then they are indeed "fake" "clones."

None of them are licensed. The DSA, SA, and Cherry out there are 'cloned' from measurements, either open-source information or just reverse-engineering the profiles. The closest thing to 'licensed' Cherry-profile are the CRP dye-sub keycaps. They seem to use tooling derived from original Cherry PBT tooling for PBT keycaps, so they are actually sort of authentic.

The largest variance in dimensions of clone keycaps is definitely in so-called "Cherry" profile. GMK is currently the standard and authentic "Cherry-profile." Many "Cherry-profile" clone sets don't match these dimensions. For example, ePBT is supposed to be Cherry-profile, but it seems to be about 1mm higher. Not fully compatible, then. Other cheap Cherry-profile, on AliExpress for example, may not be to spec. I find that these Cherry-profile 'clones' are the least reliable in terms of getting the dimensions you expect.

The SA-profile clones are often quite close in dimensions. They could probably be treated as true SA-profile sets, even though they are not from SP. I've seen a number of bargains on Chinese websites, and you can get decent-quality caps this way. DSA is a little more of a crapshoot, as I find that SP quality is significantly better - but the clones are often PBT, which is harder to work with.

I don't know about the legal issues involved. I think that Cherry, SA, DSA, etc... are out-of-copyright in terms of their dimensions, I don't think those profiles can be IP-restricted. However, use of trademarks like SA, Cherry, etc... is questionable, even though the clone manufacturers do it.

So to answer your question, those 1980s keycaps profiles were originally exclusive to certain manufacturers. However, they have been since cloned. The new (largely Chinese) profiles tend only to be produced by their originating manufacturer in China, partly because of copyright and IP agreements (as in MT3, which is exclusive to Drop), or because no other manufacturer wants to make expensive tooling to illegally copy someone else's new profile. So MT3, ASA are manufacturer-exclusive. ZDA seems to be an unlicensed clone of XDA profile, if I'm not mistaken.

Any MT3 that isn't from Drop is an unlicensed clone, as it's definitely a licensed IP, although the dimensions are public. I haven't heard of any clone sets of MT3. Not needed when the other Chinese manufacturers have ASA, MG and unlicensed SA.

[Riverman]

Does anyone know who created the OEM profile?  It's the most common among keyboards that aren't made by Cherry, Varmilo, Leopold, or Topre, but where did it come from?  Costar, possibly?

[erit]

Thank you for the detailed explanation HungerMechanic! It was surprising to learn that even GMK Cherry-profile keycaps are also clones of the original profile. So there's no way to determine authenticity between GMK and ePBT without something like an original Cherry G80 for comparison, but the GMK profile seems to be the preferred option for most people.
This thread briefly describes the history for the SP family of keycap profiles (SA, SS, DSA, DSS, DCS): https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63052.0

Riverman, this thread describes what the OEM profile is: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38987.0
Basically OEM is just the catchall term used to describe the common keycap profile used by Filco, Logitech, Razer, Corsair, etc. Even though they are all OEM profile, a Filco keycap is not identical to say a Logitech keycap. This is a good overview on the characteristics of various keycap profiles: https://thekeeblog.com/overview-of-different-keycap-profiles/

So while most keycap profiles are not exclusive, they are also not standardized and many manufacturers are basically just making clones of other clones. That explains why it's so difficult to find detailed specifications of the profiles.

[Pylon]

GMK owns Cherry's old keycap molds, so GMK's keycaps are not clones.

[Pylon]

The closest thing to 'licensed' Cherry-profile are the CRP dye-sub keycaps. They seem to use tooling derived from original Cherry PBT tooling for PBT keycaps, so they are actually sort of authentic.

I thought BSP obtained Cherry's old thick PBT keycap molds? Though according to this Geekhack thread they no longer use them. CRP has their own molds I believe.

Also, come to think of it, I'm not too sure if GMK still uses Cherry's old tooling (which dates to the 1980s and may be quite worn). With their recent expansion they have to be buying new molds to outfit the new machines. Also, if you compare newer GMK to OG Cherry doubleshots, you can see that GMK definitely updated a few of the legends (e.g. the # legend is taller on newer GMK sets, and the % legend has thinner circles).

[HungerMechanic]

Thank you for the detailed explanation HungerMechanic! It was surprising to learn that even GMK Cherry-profile keycaps are also clones of the original profile. So there's no way to determine authenticity between GMK and ePBT without something like an original Cherry G80 for comparison, but the GMK profile seems to be the preferred option for most people.
This thread briefly describes the history for the SP family of keycap profiles (SA, SS, DSA, DSS, DCS): https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63052.0

There seems to be a little confusion in terms of my post. I probably wasn't detailed enough in referring to GMK, as it's a little complicated.

I mentioned that GMK is the "authentic Cherry profile," but I should have specified why that is. As Pylon indicated, GMK inherited Cherry's ABS Cherry-profile keycap molds, so it is the true "Cherry-profile" and presumably a legal successor.

Also, it's not likely that GMK is using much of the old molds, as Pylon suggested. But GMK is the direct successor of Cherry-profile, and their equipment attempts to replicate the end result.

SP still exists and uses directly whatever remains of the molds for DCS, DSS, DSA, and SA, or direct successors of those molds. SP produces the only "authentic" version of those profiles. Although, as I said, some of the clones [e.g. SA] are pretty good.

I may be wrong about CRP, must have confused it with BSP. BSP had equipment for producing Cherry's PBT keycaps, but it is no longer in production. Unlike BSP, there may be no direct relation between Cherry and CRP. Which means that all CRP does is diligently work to replicate the legends of classic dye-sub keycap sets.

Only SP production of DCS, DSS, DSA and SA, and GMK production of Cherry-profile, then, are direct successors of those original, classic profiles [legally, and in terms of equipment heritage]. And they are removed time-wise from the 1980s-1990s production, obviously. Anything in those profiles not produced by SP and GMK respectively are "clones" [some of them quite good!].

The modern Chinese-produced new profiles such as MT3, ASA, MG tend to be associated with their respective manufacturers, and I am not aware of clones. The clones tend to be of those original SP and Cherry/GMK profiles.

GMK isn't so much a "clone" of Cherry-profile as much as the sole legitimate heir at this point. It has many bastards, though.

[erit]

Thanks for the clarification! The linked thread was also a good read.

So it looks the original Cherry tooling was split between 2 groups: GMK for ABS, and BSP for PBT. Authentic Cherry ABS keycaps are still readily available because of GMK but almost all new productions of Cherry PBT keycaps are "fake" because BSP does not seem to be producing more in large quantities nowadays. There seems to be only one BSP PBT set available on originative.

I've seen reasons for why GMK only makes ABS keycaps range from cost, low warp, better acoustics, and so on. It looks like the reason could simply be because that's what they had the original equipment for. The original molds from decades ago are likely not in use anymore but GMK could make new ones as needed if they had specifications of the original profile, and it sounds like they have updated it because the new keycaps are different from the original Cherry ones.

I guess GMK is not authentic Cherry because they have the original Cherry molds, but more like whatever GMK makes will become recognized as the authentic Cherry profile. Just like if SP started making SA keycaps 1mm taller (with all else being the same), then that will become the new definition of SA moving forward.

If I tried to make Cherry or SA keycaps, it would always be fake even if it's 100% identical to the ones made by GMK or SP. So basically a keycap profile (like SA) does not have a detailed specification, it's just defined as a group of high-level ideas (high profile, sculpted, spherical on all rows) and made by a specific manufacturer (like SP).

[Volny]

I'm something of a DSA addict. I have a complex keyboard and macropad setup, and sticking to a single uniform profile like DSA gives me the most freedom to mix and match keycaps and customise my layouts. So I've accumulated DSA keycaps from all sorts of places. Primarily from SP, but also other places like KPrepublic, Drop, or various random sellers on Aliexpress. I've been surprised by just how much variance there is in all of these different brands of keycaps. They all have the same essential DSA shape, but still vary in plenty of ways. Signature Plastics ones are easily the best - they're thick, rock solid, with good stem grip, crisp printing, and a pleasant medium-friction texture. Pretty much all the others are poorer in some regard or other.

Some have blurrier and/or duller printing, some are thin and cheap-feeling. Some are so loose that they will catapult right off the stem on the upstroke if my finger isn't still there to hold them down (seriously). I have one set that is much coarser than SP, and other sets that are much smoother. Some are not quite as tall as SP DSA. Some have slightly differing angles on the sloped sides - as a result, one set has a larger surface area on the top, and another set has a smaller than standard one.

Some of the sets I have are quite decent. But for others, "fake" and "clone" certainly do seem like apt terms. I don't know what the legal status is of all these clones (either way, my conscience is clear - Signature Plastics have received much more business from me than they have a right to expect of any one individual - like I said, I'm a DSA addict, and SP remains my predominant drug dealer ). But some of them certainly feel like cheap knock-offs. I'm not sure if I'd call them "fakes" though, since the ones I own have their own designs (often novelties), rather than trying to imitate a particular set like, say, DSA Magic Girl or Signature Plastic's DSA UnAlice.

I guess it's in similar murky territory to knock-off Lego bricks. On the one hand, they're clearly ripping off Lego. But on the other hand, they don't actually claim to be Lego (they don't have "Lego" written on the bumps), and they never come close to competing with Lego's beautifully designed and highly polished Petting Zoo and Spaceship sets, so you don't feel too sorry for Lego that these knockoffs exist.

[HungerMechanic]

Yeah, pretty much. Even though it may be possible to clone GMK or SP profiles almost perfectly, few manufacturers do so. Most of the clones are either inferior or "different" in some way.

Everybody wants to be like GMK ABS. JTK works hard to improve its molds and tooling, but still doesn't quite measure up. EnjoyPBT started its own ABS line. Other people are getting in on the "Cherry-profile" game. But GMK is still the "premium" and "correct" set. The way things are going with GMK tooling and plastic supply, though, maybe JTK or EPBT will catch up.

None of the clones of SP profiles are as good as SP, from what I've used. I don't much like the clone PBT DSA sets. They feel crude and not quite even. SP DSA is amazing, with the perfect texture, both in looks and grip. SP SA are among the top-tier keycaps in existence. Although some clone sets are pretty good.

It makes me kind of sad to see the clone manufacturers content with often producing a second-rate set. I know that some of them could do better if they step up. Isn't China producing much of the plastic for GMK anyway? What's the holdup on getting better materials?

As for why GMK only chose the Cherry ABS molds, I'm not sure. It may have been availability, or the idea that they would sell better. Or maybe it's just because ABS is easier to work with. That's one reason why GMK is so popular - it can do wild colourways, and create special new molds for custom accents. That's much more painful to try with PBT. What the frugal and pragmatic clone manufacturers are doing is competing where GMK isn't - the PBT space. They can use reverse dye-sub sometimes or even double-shot to replicate some GMK colourways, or produce their own to PBT coloursets.

[Riverman]

I've mixed and matched some keycaps, like the RGB modifiers you can get on Amazon or AliExpress with genuine Cherry or GMK keycaps, and I've never noticed a profile mismatch.  If the knock-offs aren't quite accurate, they're extremely close.  The Chinese knockoffs are definitely getting better.  I just got one in the mail today, and the reverse dye sub job is much more even than on past sets I've seen, the legends are sharp and colorful, and the spacebar is ruler flat.  That's a first, in my experience.

I wonder if Cherry profile is defined somewhere, and if the specifications have fallen into the public domain by now, but then I guess that's partly the main point of this thread, isn't it?  If the design of Cherry's own MX switches is no longer copyrighted, I'd be surprised if Cherry's profile specification is still copyrighted, too.

[HungerMechanic]

It's unlikely that the profile is still copyrighted. And I think that the specs are known, and may show up in the profile comparison graphics that you can find on the web.

The clone keycaps can fit in well, and I have done this. But if you are sensitive to the difference, there are things like thickness and material differences, surface textures, and ePBT being slightly taller than Cherry.

I'm all fine with using clone keycaps together with GMK / Cherry. But the experience may not be 100% uniform.