Author Topic: [GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F  (Read 2353762 times)

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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3000 on: Tue, 28 December 2021, 18:08:57 »
As orders continue to go out, here is part of the latest air shipment from the factory:  ISO Icons HHKB cap set, and a few German, Norwegian, and Danish key sets (and a few WASD pebble sets from a special request).  These are the first of the non-English sets that the factory has sent me.  I will be getting some of these sets out to the split shipping folks who have been waiting a while for these sets.  They also sent out some of the new production XT foam so I can get some of those orders out to those who just ordered separate shipping of foam.

Also today I approved production of the new transparent relegendable keys, based on the samples from this shipment.  They are made of strong polycarbonate and are super clear.  So far 981 have been ordered as of today.  I still have a bunch more than that available.

You may be wondering what is the secret code on each key set bag - it is the production code.  2 digit year and 2 digit week number (e.g. 2130 indicates production in the 30th week of 2021).

280436-0

Offline Lu_e

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3001 on: Sat, 01 January 2022, 17:36:06 »
My patience remains.

Happy New Year.

Offline sixdeuces

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3002 on: Sun, 02 January 2022, 10:52:19 »
My patience remains.

Someday I will see my keyboard. Someday...
*looks wistfully into the distance*

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3003 on: Tue, 04 January 2022, 22:20:25 »
The latest monthly update has been posted on the project web site updates page.  I have copied part of the update below.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Brand New Model F January 2022 Update – wrapping up the shipments of the second container shipment, third container shipment with the remaining keys and keyboards going out around end of January, and more!

Third container shipment almost ready to go!

As we start the new year 2022, I am almost entirely wrapped up with the shipments of keyboards and in stock accessories that arrived earlier this year with the second container shipment and in various express air shipments. A number of the keyboards that arrived in prior container shipments arrived with significant case damage, incorrect variation number labels, while others did not match the specifications of that variation (different color, layout, etc.) and some failed my testing requiring complete replacement of certain assemblies. So as to avoid delays and get as many keyboards out as soon as possible, I prioritized mailing out all of the “good to go” keyboards and then the other keyboards, and this month I will be spending time repairing these other keyboards and replacing entire circuitry (controller+ribbon cable+large capacitive PCB+USB cable) to continue getting out the keyboards. Recently the replacement parts arrived by express mail from the factory.

I want to note that the factory’s delay this year with production and assembly of these remaining keyboards of the early bird round was in no way a bottleneck for the 2021 keyboard shipping as the key sets and I were the two bottlenecks for the year – I was still (and still am) getting out keyboards and accessories from the prior container shipments. The only other remaining bottleneck since last year is the custom and international key sets and one-off type keys which required extensive quality control especially with all the special characters on the top and bottom areas of the key top surfaces, all of which are being finished up this month (some have already been completed). By the time I am done there will not be much downtime as we wait for the next container shipment to arrive to me. Prior to February 2021 we were still waiting on the factory to complete the new XT quality dye sublimation; orders with sublimated keys only started going out less than one year ago – will be going full speed once everything from the factory arrives (keys, etc.). The remaining sublimated keys should be completed in the coming weeks. For these reasons, I expect the pace to be far faster than it has been previously while needing to wait for sublimated keys to arrive. Once again I thank everyone for their patience with the factory and with me as I go through the backlog.

While I was busy getting everything out, the factory has been very busy producing the remaining dye sublimated key sets (including the international, front printed, and miscellaneous smaller sets and individual keys) as well as finishing assembly of the next batch of keyboards that are part of the early bird round of this project, many of which are the ISO-type keyboards and key sets that some of you have been patiently waiting for. This will all be going out as part of the third container shipment, which was not expected (initially the expectation was one round all in one container shipment, but waiting for everything to be finished would have significantly delayed the project even more). The third container shipment of all these parts and keyboards was delayed significantly this year and should be going out around the end of this month (January 2022), arriving to me around the end of March 2022, depending on port congestion. This is about a month later than what the factory was expecting in November, as noted in the prior update. It will then take several months for me to send out the remaining keyboards from this batch, which will finally bring me up to date without a backlog at that point. In other words, I expect to wrap up getting all the orders out over the coming 6-7 months from now. In this upcoming shipment, the factory is hoping to get in all the remaining keyboards that were not completed before the earlier container shipments departed the port. We are still in the early bird round; the final round is expected to start later this year. After my backlog is all gone and I’m caught up, I’m expected to open the window to order the Brand New Beam Spring Keyboards (half of the first batch of 300 is in stock currently, with the other half shipping and arriving to me in a few months from now). Please do sign up on the Beam Spring interest form noted below as that is the only way to reserve your spot in line for a Beam Spring keyboard.

And as some of you have asked me, it’s not really possible to estimate how long it will take to get up to a particular point in the backlog line because it depends on how quickly a keyboard can pass my final QC inspection and how quickly I can repair it if needed, along with the complexity of particular orders (putting together additional accessories and individual keys) slowing down the throughput time. However as noted above it should take a few months once the next batch is in hand for me to go through it, now that I won’t be waiting for parts to complete an order (so it is “all in stock”) at that time. Many folks ordered another keyboard and/or additional accessories in separate orders later on, which usually means these later orders can move ahead in line and ship in the same package as their earliest shipment. Over the past two years of mailing keyboards, some days it seems like everyone might have ordered extras while other days I can (relatively) zoom through keyboard-only orders. Either way a keyboard typically takes ~20-30 minutes to fully inspect, program, repair if needed, get the packing slip and keyboard/box birthday labels, and ship, and that time does not count gathering accessories. An electric counting scale is a big help, especially for those who order 100+ extra flippers with springs 🙂

Updates on die cast tooling
Due to the skyrocketing price of raw materials in recent years, in 2021 the project switched over to die casting instead of CNC milling each of the compact cases, despite the significant cost of the new tooling. Now both case types (compact and classic style) are die cast, not just the classic style cases which were die cast from the start of mass production. This allowed us to make the cases one solid aluminum piece + the bottom plate instead of two CNC milled aluminum pieces and the bottom plate, thus improving the construction quality of the cases. With the old design, the case screws had only 1-2mm of threads in the top part of the aluminum cases. Now the screws have several more mm of threads which should make them even more solid.  (The flat bottom compact case plates are still CNC milled as it is just a flat plate)

Besides that extra parting line, the case design is identical to the original cases and inner assemblies can be switched from one case to the other. The factory completed the die cast tooling and production for the aluminum, ultra-compact cases last year. These cases will be used starting with this third container shipment.

Also by popular demand the compact cases have switched to the tougher powdercoating finish mentioned before, using a paint that most closely resembles the anodized look of the originals, as much as is possible by paint. While the anodized look of the keyboards is really nice as well, an even tougher coating should allow the newer keyboards to hold up cosmetically even longer than the anodized cases which have less scratch resistance.

Update on zinc case powdercoating
For the classic style zinc cases, the factory has gone with an improved, reformulated powdercoating finish that retains the full texture and finish of the original IBM powdercoated Model F keyboards. This should make the cases a bit more durable than those in the earlier two container shipments, though I still chose to avoid offering the ultra-tough modern powdercoating on the original style cases in order to keep the reproductions in line with the originals in appearance. As with any textured, uncoated paint the case finishes will continue to wear down over time just like the IBM originals, but should hold up better to usage.

Requests for help and expertise
I am still looking for some help on updating the open source xwhatsit controller PCB design and ideas for beam module pullers (for my updated beam module design) – please see my prior update post for more details.

What are the other very minor changes in the current shipment?
As noted earlier the bottom and top inner assemblies were modified a tiny amount to allow for a slightly tighter “sandwich” which I believe will offer a slight improvement in the snappiness of the XT-quality typing experience. Full compatibility has been maintained with existing cases and inner assembly parts so you can replace your inner assembly if needed, or switch between new and old cases and mix between old and new inner assembly plates.

The golden yellow finish of the older batch of bottom inner assembly steel plates (and of the IBM originals) has changed to a bluer finish due to a recent factory error. Since it’s inside the keyboard and not really seen I did not want to delay all the keyboards by 1-2 additional months to remanufacture these parts. For the final round I expect to go back to the original color.

The boxes have become a few inches larger to accommodate fitting a full key set inside the box. The artwork remains the same. Previously I put the key sets in separate boxes even if they were ordered with a keyboard.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 January 2022, 22:33:08 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3004 on: Sun, 09 January 2022, 22:37:33 »
Now that production and assembly are wrapping up for the early bird round as the factory gets ready to have everything done before the Chinese New Year break, my expectation is that planning will ramp up for the final round later this year.  While the keyboards will be the same as the current round, without some cost cutting the final round keyboards are expected to cost much higher than the current batch (pricing was fortunately frozen on the current batch before the recent inflation stuff). 

Since I'm not willing to cut the cost or quality of the keyboard itself I expect to focus on redesigning the packaging to be more efficient while still protecting the keyboards.  The polystyrene IBM style packaging is alas probably going to be gone, replaced by the foam material and design currently used by the compact case keyboards (I am open to packaging suggestions). 

This will allow the boxes to be smaller, which will reduce final round cost increases due to container shipping costs (delivering to me) and shipping costs to the customer (due to shipping weight savings of maybe 1-2 pounds-it adds up when shipping thousands of keyboards), which have skyrocketed more than 30% since last year for many international destinations.  This week international shipping went up $15 for the project.  Also to save weight I may have to bring the boxes down to high quality but single walled.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3005 on: Wed, 12 January 2022, 16:02:46 »
Here is another photo from the latest air shipment. The factory did a great job with the sublimation and Zed has done a great job getting the legends to be in line with the IBM legends. This particular legend is even a deeper shade of black than my reference 1984 F122 6110344 one piece set! I did not expect that. The legend design, alignment, and sublimation are of such good quality that it is difficult for me to tell whether both keys were made by IBM or whether one is new and one is IBM. Please pardon the poorly lit, cell phone quality photo and shallow depth of field blurring the keys - I did not scan both keys with a flatbed scanner as with my prior comparisons.

281162-0

It is a special additional key from a Norwegian set (as noted in the key set renderings on the "full key set" store page, many of the international sets come with extra keys that are slightly different, to accommodate the more variable keyboard legend options)

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3006 on: Sun, 16 January 2022, 12:33:42 »
Here are some more photos from the keyboard assembly process.  Several hundred thousand parts needed to be assembled for the current container shipment leaving at month end.  As shown in one of the videos on the project's YouTube channel, the final inner assembly step is for the custom made pneumatic machine to press the bottom inner assembly with PCB onto the other parts.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos

This photo also shows the more authentic XT style foam being used for the current container shipment, as opposed to the foam used for prior shipments.  As the new foam is less dense, I expect it will result in sound quality that is slightly less muffled, but this may not be noticeable.  For those who prefer the higher sound dampening properties of the older foam, all of the extra foam is still that style (there is no option to get extras of the XT style foam at this time, besides the foam for the IBM XT keyboard itself which is still available).
281260-0281262-1
281264-2281266-3

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3007 on: Wed, 19 January 2022, 22:18:32 »
The factory has noted that all keyboard assembly is finishing up tomorrow and everything is being packed into the pallets!  The freight forwarder says they have reserved a container that will be leaving before Chinese New Year, to avoid losing a few weeks while everyone is on break.  If all goes well the container shipment arrives in early March and then is delivered to me in mid-March.

Once again thanks to everyone for their patience as the factory wraps things up. 

The schedule for this year is that after the backlog is done, the Brand New Beam Spring keyboards first round will go out, and then we still have the final round later this year for the F62/F77.  After that will be the slightly more costly beam spring keyboard round with the case redesign and increased sound dampening).

Offline Puddsy

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3008 on: Thu, 20 January 2022, 10:43:28 »
Here are some more photos from the keyboard assembly process.  Several hundred thousand parts needed to be assembled for the current container shipment leaving at month end.  As shown in one of the videos on the project's YouTube channel, the final inner assembly step is for the custom made pneumatic machine to press the bottom inner assembly with PCB onto the other parts.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsi-1PcnCT3hw_RwcFzBnuw/videos

This photo also shows the more authentic XT style foam being used for the current container shipment, as opposed to the foam used for prior shipments.  As the new foam is less dense, I expect it will result in sound quality that is slightly less muffled, but this may not be noticeable.  For those who prefer the higher sound dampening properties of the older foam, all of the extra foam is still that style (there is no option to get extras of the XT style foam at this time, besides the foam for the IBM XT keyboard itself which is still available).
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

oh i missed these photos, these are cool. thanks for sharing, and thanks for all your diligent updating!
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3009 on: Sun, 23 January 2022, 21:04:42 »
The freight forwarder noted that they have booked space on a container ship departing before month end. The shipping container is being loaded this week - 20,000 pounds including thousands of keyboards, key sets, and other accessory parts! As noted before the factory has improved their QC and assembled the first aid kits so this should save me a lot of time and help me to mail out everyone's orders much faster than last time. Everything is expected to be ready to go this time and we are not waiting for dye sublimation to start like we were last time. As noted before I ordered slightly bigger keyboard boxes which will save the time of me taping up and mailing the little key set boxes.

Today the factory finished the first 200 F1-F12 front print sets which they expect to air mail me this week so I can mail out to those who aren't waiting for anything else anymore and are just waiting for those keys. They're working on the Industrial SSK blue 12 key sets with the hope that they also are included in this week's air shipment. The remaining key sets and custom keys will be worked on while the container ship is sailing and will then be air mailed to me.

Also I'm not sure if I will gift wrap every order in gray plastic wrap. For a couple thousand keyboards that would save the equivalent of one week just in packing time. Many folks would personally prefer gift wrapping so as not to have a shipping label on the product box but I don't want to hold up everyone's orders since everyone has been waiting a while.
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 January 2022, 21:16:44 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3010 on: Tue, 25 January 2022, 11:45:47 »
New Model F Keyboards now fill a shipping container!  This is their new home for the next month or so.  The container was delivered to the factory, the factory loaded the container with lots of pallets and boxes, and then the container was picked up by the local shipping partner of the freight forwarder to be driven to the port.  This week the containers are being loaded onto a container ship which is set to depart at month end, 1/30 or 1/31.

For this batch, a 40' (!) container is filled to the edge, though the pallets are not double stacked (they are extra tall pallets and so could not be double stacked) so there is a few feet of clearance on top as shown in the photos.  Prior container shipments were 20' or LCL.

281585-0281587-1
281589-2281591-3
281593-4281595-5
281597-6281599-7
281601-8281603-9
281605-10281607-11
281609-12281611-13
281613-14281615-15

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3011 on: Tue, 25 January 2022, 23:17:18 »
Pad printed keys update - I have been looking into pad printing a small batch of the black key sets with white text as a number of people have asked me about it.  This is reminiscent of the IBM Model M 13H6705 keyboard, the only one with pad printed black keys to my knowledge.  ​This is of course very low priority for this year.  Pad printing can look nice but tends to wear down with usage.

If interested in black pad printed Model F / Model M keys please sign the interest form here:  https://forms.gle/qnUATUrng8bX9Qxt8

Also I am sending out the email newsletter today and tomorrow, in batches (not to everyone at once) - here is a web copy for those who may not receive it by email:  https://mailchi.mp/c84fd8bca891/brand-new-model-f-keyboards-2022-update

A summary for those who have not been following the updates as closely:
Production on the latest batch of keyboards and accessories finally finished this month.  All the remaining orders were loaded into a shipping container this week and will be arriving to me in early March, when I will then be spending months to go through the remaining backlog, personally testing and mailing each order.  The backlog will remain through mid-year in my estimate.  See the newsletter for details on what this means for your orders

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3012 on: Mon, 31 January 2022, 16:11:24 »
The first batch of 200 front print keys arrived!  These are just the pearl F1-F12 US front printed keys.  I will be sending these out over the coming days to all those who are just waiting on these keys to complete their orders. 

The keys came out well.  As a note the alignment for the front printing is not as strong as the top alignment - this was true even for the IBM sublimated keys.  The front printing has proven to be extremely difficult to even get to this point.  The Industrial SSK blue 12 key sets and all the other front print sets will be completed over the coming weeks after the factory returns from their break.

New Model F production keys are on top of my IBM F122:
281887-0

This photo shows two example IBM-sublimated keys on my F122 - note the varying angles and thicknesses of the front printing even for IBM:
281889-1

Offline LightningXI

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3013 on: Wed, 02 February 2022, 06:39:09 »
It's been so long, but I'm excited to hear the keys with printed legends are finally going out sometime soon.

Looking forward to them

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3014 on: Thu, 03 February 2022, 15:59:20 »
As an update the shipping container has departed on the container ship as scheduled and is now at sea!  It should arrive early next month but who knows how long it will take to unload and deliver the goods with port congestion and all.

Yes Lightning - to be clear the sublimated US key sets started shipping in February 2021 and only recently have most of the other sets been completed.  The Industrial SSK 12 key sets and the custom Extra Keys are the only remaining ones that the factory will finish up in the weeks after returning from break.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3015 on: Wed, 23 February 2022, 13:52:01 »
I wanted to share a nice sound test video of the new Model F with and without the solenoid, posted by someone on Twitter - I think this video captures the sound well.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1467896098861817858

Offline blur410

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3016 on: Wed, 23 February 2022, 19:52:06 »
For the black keys dont forget HHKB compatibility. And since they are pad printed, will you be offering front side pad prints?
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3017 on: Thu, 24 February 2022, 08:51:58 »
For the black keys dont forget HHKB compatibility. And since they are pad printed, will you be offering front side pad prints?

Asking the real questions here. That's exactly what I mentioned in the little survey he sent out. Might as well fix the flaws that ended production of the black caps to begin with, if feasible/practical.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3018 on: Thu, 24 February 2022, 10:36:33 »
Confirmed on the HHKB compatibility but no front printing for the pad printing as it would double production time and cost.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3019 on: Thu, 24 February 2022, 11:06:36 »
Confirmed on the HHKB compatibility but no front printing for the pad printing as it would double production time and cost.

I hope you get some decent sales on that variant then. I know I'll pass without front printing, which is a shame since black caps are great.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3020 on: Sat, 05 March 2022, 19:28:47 »
Everyone please feel free to check out the March update on the project web site - a summary of what has been going on with the project in the past couple months: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Also Zed has just created the F13-F24 keys for those F122 and M122 users - now available on the extra keys page.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 March 2022, 19:38:50 by Ellipse »

Offline konstantin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3021 on: Sat, 05 March 2022, 20:12:37 »
Hi Ellipse, can we expect to receive a notification with a tracking number when our orders get shipped?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3022 on: Sat, 05 March 2022, 20:49:47 »
Yes confirmed

Offline konstantin

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3023 on: Sun, 06 March 2022, 04:29:15 »
Yes confirmed

Thanks for confirming!

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3024 on: Fri, 11 March 2022, 01:48:55 »
Also for the beam spring project, I thought I would cross post here that I have posted over on that thread the first draft renderings of the proposed second round die cast case, as well as the CAD STP files for those interested in helping out with case/keyboard designs.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3025 on: Mon, 21 March 2022, 16:56:58 »
The freight forwarder has notified me that the container ship has arrived at port and that the container shipment is scheduled to be delivered this week! 

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3026 on: Thu, 24 March 2022, 12:26:42 »
Cryptocurrency update:  as requested by a number of folks, I have just added a beta option to make payments for orders through cryptocurrency by Bitpay, which allows payment through a number of wallets and cryptocurrencies (but not all of them are supported). 

Please do share your feedback on this feature as it may have bugs.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3027 on: Fri, 25 March 2022, 20:43:13 »
The first of three truckloads from the shipping container has arrived!  Today I took delivery and started organizing them.  The two remaining truckloads are scheduled to be delivered next week.
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 March 2022, 00:18:22 by Ellipse »

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3028 on: Sat, 26 March 2022, 00:17:50 »
Notice that the boxes have increased in width, to accommodate a key set inside the box (as noted before).  Also the factory changed the variation stickers to a more sticky product as opposed to the flag-type post its that did not stick as well and would fall off.

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Not specific to this project but here is an interesting video I came across showing how shipping containers are so efficiently moved about at a port:

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3029 on: Sun, 27 March 2022, 10:56:41 »
As I continue preparing and organizing the recent container shipment's first truckload delivery that arrived on Friday, I am selling the following Ultra Compact Model F F77 keyboard on behalf of a customer.  The keyboard is sold used, "as is" and is a good way to get a keyboard right away without having to wait.  The keyboard is sold as non-functional but it tested 100% good in my testing.  You may have to purchase replacement parts to get it working - I don't have the time to fully diagnose it.  It passed 100% the signal level monitor test in the pandrew utility.

First to PM me and complete payment will get it! 

You only get what is pictured - no extra keys, no 0-9 keys, etc.  Ultra Compact F77, ANSI style layout, with only the pictured dark gray printed keys.  Bumpers have been installed to the bottom.

The keyboard as configured sells for $454 new.  Given the missing parts I will list it for $400 + $99 immediate shipping priority = $499 shipped within the US (additional shipping charges same as the project rates:  Canada:  $48.92.  Rest of World:  $74.69.  Non-Contiguous US:  $25.)
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3030 on: Mon, 28 March 2022, 00:19:39 »
Keyboard shipping update - check your email inboxes as you may have received a shipping confirmation email!  A whole bunch of keyboards are going out tomorrow - the first bunch of orders that were all in stock from the partial delivery of the shipping container contents on Friday (the rest of which should be delivered this week).

Black pad printed keys update:  I am working with a factory that is still looking into the pad printing.  As a reminder please sign up on the Google form below if you want to reserve your spot to get a black pad printed set.  Given all the setup costs for each production batch I may only produce one batch of a few hundred sets. 

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=498535&sid=96cea386d8e9b9841ade1506b1072907#p498535

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3031 on: Mon, 28 March 2022, 18:39:51 »
The remaining truckloads from the shipping container have been delivered to me. Now for organization and preparations to continue shipping.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3032 on: Mon, 28 March 2022, 22:36:14 »
Today after receiving the keyboards and extras, organization began and a few hundred keyboards were added from yesterday's photos.  The keyboards are placed on pallets and reorganized to keep keyboards with the same variation grouped together for easy searching.  Each keyboard variation is logged in its location in a row-column notation (example 1D would be row 1, column D) so I know where to find each keyboard variation when mailing out the keyboards based on low serial upgrades and order dates, etc.  It is not as comprehensive a system as would be needed for the warehouse visited by Indiana Jones in the bottom image!  This process will continue throughout this week. 

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Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3033 on: Tue, 29 March 2022, 12:07:13 »
What a sight to see, and an apt comparison. I wish I could have them all.  :(

Offline rknize

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3034 on: Thu, 31 March 2022, 12:44:33 »
I am still quite amazed at how many of these got made in the end.
Russ

Offline Maledicted

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3035 on: Thu, 31 March 2022, 13:42:37 »
I am still quite amazed at how many of these got made in the end.

I'm glad I bought an F107 before they started shipping.  ;D It is now suddenly the rare variant, as expected.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3036 on: Thu, 31 March 2022, 18:51:59 »
Another major project milestone - today the 2000th keyboard shipped!  I have completed the organization and have started shipping keyboards.  Currently various low serial keyboards have been going out.  Some of the extra key sets like the Industrial SSK 12 key sets are finally shipping by air/express mail this week, expected to arrive next week, so I should be able to begin getting orders containing those keys out and mail out the separate shipping keys for those still waiting on those key sets.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3037 on: Tue, 05 April 2022, 11:41:15 »
Here's an interesting Model M key set someone was discussing with me recently (this one will not be made as part of the new sets unfortunately):

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/44fl4s/ibm_model_m_buckling_spring_ps2_keyboard/

Model M keyboards that came with coordinate measuring machines (CMMs)

"As for one of the objects (the intercom), this is one of his comments; "It was used for an old destination control system at an IBM office with banks of elevators. Instead of pressing up and down arrows, getting in and then pressing the button in the elevator, you would press the button and tell a dispatcher which floor. They would then tell you which elevator to use, and you get in and don't have to press anything. They would know what floor everyone wanted to go to, and would optimize it so that every elevator would stop at the least amount of floors, grouping people together as efficiently as possible.""

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3038 on: Mon, 11 April 2022, 10:37:34 »
Today a bunch of the remaining key sets arrived by express mail from the factory, including the Industrial SSK 12 key sets, many of the remaining international sets (Swedish-Finnish, etc.), and some of the Extra Keys.  Another air shipment batch over the coming weeks should have the remaining dye sublimated keys we have been waiting on.

The Industrial SSK 12 Key sets look great - I would say they are even an upgrade over the IBM/Lexmark Model M originals.  As always please disregard the colors (cell phone photos).  I am glad the factory focused extra effort on making sure these sets look as good as they do, even though this resulted in a delay for these keys.  The Front Printing was by far the most difficult part of the dye sublimation and it took more than one year to get it right.

That means that many of the orders containing these sets can start shipping this week!

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Offline Versaknight

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3039 on: Mon, 11 April 2022, 11:10:13 »
Looks so good! I cant wait to get one!

Offline qeebored

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3040 on: Wed, 13 April 2022, 17:52:56 »
I'm happy it takes some time to ship, so I can add new items to the order as I get new ideas and preferences...

If I've understood the information correctly, I can split the 2.25u left shift on a HHKB layout into an 1.25u ISO shift and an 1u key, I just need to order the extra keycaps, a barrel, and a flipper?

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3041 on: Wed, 13 April 2022, 19:05:26 »
Yes confirmed.  Or you can order any ISO configured keyboard and the layout will automatically reflect ISO.

There are various international sets thanks to Zed - they are listed on the F62 and F77 product pages.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3042 on: Thu, 14 April 2022, 11:42:30 »
Question for all the coders:

Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks?  Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers.  After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed. 

It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040.  The question is, is it better to go with KMK?  How stable is it?  It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready.  Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware

What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip?  Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?

Offline qeebored

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3043 on: Thu, 14 April 2022, 17:18:53 »
Yes confirmed.  Or you can order any ISO configured keyboard and the layout will automatically reflect ISO.

There are various international sets thanks to Zed - they are listed on the F62 and F77 product pages.

Thanks for the quick response. I guess the keymap in QMK has to be updated for the extra key, but I think that would be manageable.

I like the HHKB layout, but after getting used to the Colemak angle and fat-z mods, I prefer the angle mod with 'z' on the ISO key instead of the fat-z mod where 'z' is in the place of the left shift. On my HHKB, I use the Hasu USB-to-USB converter to make the left shift output 'z' on tap, and shift on hold, but I wish it rather had an ISO shift cluster...

Offline sam123456

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3044 on: Fri, 15 April 2022, 23:51:32 »
My F77 came in the mail about a week ago and I have to report that I'm completely pleased with it. The tactility communicates so much more to my fingers than any cherry switch I've used. A very pleasurable typing experience. And damned if it doesn't make my desk look a lot classier. Almost tempted to get another despite not having much of a practical reason for having two!

Offline Rico

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3045 on: Sat, 16 April 2022, 09:38:55 »
Question for all the coders:

Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks?  Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers.  After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed. 

It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040.  The question is, is it better to go with KMK?  How stable is it?  It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready.  Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware

What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip?  Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?

Hello Ellipse,

Please let me try to answer your questions the best I can as a non-expert/hobbyist guy.

About KMK.
Never wrote a KMK firmware but had a quick look at the repository source code and a few keyboard firmwares.
It looks to be very easy to write a custom firmware with KMK and the code is very compact and readable.
KMK needs quite a lot of memory but the RP2040 has plenty of it so it is not a big deal.

KMK caveats:
1) Firmware is written in Python, so any modification to the key layout means modifying python code.
Not a big deal for a seasoned developper as KMK developpers made their best to be an easy process, but can be a blocker for non-programmers.
2) No VIA/VIAL support currently.
And again non-programmers may be reluctant to dive in python source code for any key layout modifications.

KarlK90 version of QMK:
He looks to have done a pretty good job to add most of the needed features.
A thing that could be a miss is the lack of EEPROM emulation (using flash storage), but easily compensated by using an external EEPROM chip.
Now I did not tested that is was indeed working.


About the amount of work to port to RP2040 MCU:
An xwhasit like PCB need to be designed, tested and a firmware written for it.
As for the hardware differences the most obvious is the operating voltage (3.3V for the RP2040, 5V for an ATMEGA).
Tom Wong-Cornall (the designer of xwhasit PCB and firmware) was unsure in this blog if his technique would work sufficiently well with 3.3V output instead of 5V.
If the answer is yes his design could be simplified a bit by getting rid of the two 74AHC595 shift register controllers and drive the thing directly with the RP2040 IO pins.
Otherwise those shift registers will need to stay and the PCB design will have to be modified to use mixed (3.3V and 5V) voltages as RP2040 IO pins are not 5V tolerant.
That looks a significant amount of work but at the same same time looks very exiting to do :D
IMO RP2040 most compelling features is not its current availability, but its PIO feature that could be used for efficiently reading the outputs of the comparators.
And of course there is its incredible price and the fact that it is a dual core beast ;)

The alternative:

Gondolindrim has done quite a lot of research on capacitive sensing for keyboards and came recently with a very interesting design that he discussed about on Twitch.
He focused on Topre-like capasitive sensing and the solution looks quite advanced.
See this GH thread here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105035.150

He also did a lot of work to mitigate MCUs frequent shortages and came with a multi-MCU (STM32 based) compatible template called Joker.
I see more and more PCB designers using Gondo's Joker template recently and it has been proven to work well for it's TKL PCB designs, some used by Geon.
More info here:
http://acheronproject.com/joker_mcus/joker/

Hope I've been of any help.

PS:
You've made be want to dive into this problem :p
 

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3046 on: Sat, 16 April 2022, 10:45:59 »
Question for all the coders:

Is anyone up for helping move the Model F QMK/Via/Vial project to the new Raspberry Pi RP2040 chip over the coming weeks?  Recently the ATMEGA chips have become nearly impossible to find in quantity due to the chip shortage, which means it's probably time to switch over to the RP2040 for the capacitive keyboard controllers.  After it is up and running I would like to secure the RP2040 chips soon before they may run out too, so that the final round and beam spring second round will not be delayed. 

It seems like QMK support is in progress but not yet completed for the RP2040, and there are other projects like KMK which seem to work with the RP2040.  The question is, is it better to go with KMK?  How stable is it?  It may take a while for QMK RP2040 support to be ready.  Some recent related links:
https://golem.hu/guide/kmk-firmware/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/sr65kd/custom_tkl_keyboard_pcb_i_have_been_designing_if/
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/14877
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/tree/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support
https://github.com/KarlK90/qmk_firmware/blob/feature/raspberry-pi-rp2040-support/docs/compatible_microcontrollers.md
https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/issues/11649
https://github.com/pimoroni/pmk-circuitpython
https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/l1yr3j/qmk_support_for_the_pico/
https://github.com/vladantrhlik/VT-40
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/q7yeo0/custom_40_powered_by_kmk_firmware/
https://github.com/KMKfw/kmk_firmware

What would it take to get the Model F firmware working on the RP2040 chip?  Would the xwhatsit wcass controller require an updated design for the RP2040 to work?

Hello Ellipse,

Please let me try to answer your questions the best I can as a non-expert/hobbyist guy.

About KMK.
Never wrote a KMK firmware but had a quick look at the repository source code and a few keyboard firmwares.
It looks to be very easy to write a custom firmware with KMK and the code is very compact and readable.
KMK needs quite a lot of memory but the RP2040 has plenty of it so it is not a big deal.

KMK caveats:
1) Firmware is written in Python, so any modification to the key layout means modifying python code.
Not a big deal for a seasoned developper as KMK developpers made their best to be an easy process, but can be a blocker for non-programmers.
2) No VIA/VIAL support currently.
And again non-programmers may be reluctant to dive in python source code for any key layout modifications.

KarlK90 version of QMK:
He looks to have done a pretty good job to add most of the needed features.
A thing that could be a miss is the lack of EEPROM emulation (using flash storage), but easily compensated by using an external EEPROM chip.
Now I did not tested that is was indeed working.


About the amount of work to port to RP2040 MCU:
An xwhasit like PCB need to be designed, tested and a firmware written for it.
As for the hardware differences the most obvious is the operating voltage (3.3V for the RP2040, 5V for an ATMEGA).
Tom Wong-Cornall (the designer of xwhasit PCB and firmware) was unsure in this blog if his technique would work sufficiently well with 3.3V output instead of 5V.
If the answer is yes his design could be simplified a bit by getting rid of the two 74AHC595 shift register controllers and drive the thing directly with the RP2040 IO pins.
Otherwise those shift registers will need to stay and the PCB design will have to be modified to use mixed (3.3V and 5V) voltages as RP2040 IO pins are not 5V tolerant.
That looks a significant amount of work but at the same same time looks very exiting to do :D
IMO RP2040 most compelling features is not its current availability, but its PIO feature that could be used for efficiently reading the outputs of the comparators.
And of course there is its incredible price and the fact that it is a dual core beast ;)

The alternative:

Gondolindrim has done quite a lot of research on capacitive sensing for keyboards and came recently with a very interesting design that he discussed about on Twitch.
He focused on Topre-like capasitive sensing and the solution looks quite advanced.
See this GH thread here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105035.150

He also did a lot of work to mitigate MCUs frequent shortages and came with a multi-MCU (STM32 based) compatible template called Joker.
I see more and more PCB designers using Gondo's Joker template recently and it has been proven to work well for it's TKL PCB designs, some used by Geon.
More info here:
http://acheronproject.com/joker_mcus/joker/

Hope I've been of any help.

PS:
You've made be want to dive into this problem :p
 

Thanks Rico, very helpful! 

I guess one question would be, could the new RP2040-based controller hardware design be futureproofed to allow QMK to run on it in the future since adding support for the RP2040 is currently in progress.  Or would we have to wait for QMK's update to be finished before doing mass production?

A quick look shows a similar scarcity with the STM chips, including the one mentioned in the Joker template link. 

Offline Rico

  • Posts: 105
Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3047 on: Sat, 16 April 2022, 12:16:28 »
The RP2040 support in QMK depends a lot on the support on ChibiOS, the real time OS used in QMK.
It looks both ChibiOS and QMK team are working on having support for RP2040, but for an accurate answer (and maybe timelines) we may ask to QMK devs.

For VIA an official QMK support is sorta needed, at least if you want the PCB to be recognised directly by the VIA software without having to provide a VIA .json file.
For VIAL as everything is self-contained into the firmware this is not absolutely mandatory (if for example the KalrK90 branch work).
But of course it is always better to have official QMK support.

STM32 chips also have shortage problem, but the Joker template allows to pick between 10 to 20 variants of MCUs depending on stock (and reserve them).
This is far from perfect but at least it prevents to re-design the PCB several times depending on stock availability.

Offline Ellipse

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3048 on: Sat, 23 April 2022, 19:19:18 »
Thanks for the helpful information Rico.

Here is a photo showing the new tougher powdercoating option on the compact cases that was mentioned several months ago. Dark Blue and Carolina (Light) Blue are shown below.

For compact keyboards shipping this year, everyone gets the new improved option instead of the anodized option which was more easy to scratch.  The new cases are also from the brand new die cast aluminum molds as noted before (makes the case two piece instead of three piece)  The new cases are fully compatible with the older batch of internals in case anyone wanted to upgrade.

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« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2022, 20:10:17 by Ellipse »

Offline Glod

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Re: [GB] F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards
« Reply #3049 on: Sun, 24 April 2022, 18:06:09 »
Brand new Colemak F77 reporting for duty :O