Intel 13th trash

[tp4tissue]

why even make this.

it's trash, barely any ipc improvement,  MORE glued on E-cores to cheat benchmarks and to cheat power efficiency measurements.

it was really uncomfortable to watch their presentation today,  do they think we're idiots.

they even heavily biased the benchmark comparisons with a 5950x which is known to be slightly worse at gaming than 5900x, and they used super slow ram to gimp the platform, then they dropped inclusion of 5800x3d in many important comparison slides, because it's already known to kick butt.

[Leslieann]

The performance per watt and instruction is actually quite good and while it runs really hot, if you underclock and under volt they do REALLY well. Like an underclocked 13900k(?) runs better than a 12900k even at just 60 watts.

But, I think the whole thing has gotten crazy, AMD now automatically runs itself up to 85c, even with a 360 watercooler. Der Bauer did direct die watercooling and still could only get it down to 65c peak. Intel runs even hotter and then we have Nvidia... Forget ITX, forget ANY current Noctua, you pretty much need a monster to even cool a mid range box with these new chips.

[tp4tissue]

60watts No it does not.

That's the cheater cores doing cheater benchmarks.

it's the same manufacturing process as 12900k, basically 12900k with clock bump.  So where did those numbers come from.  THEY MADE IT UP.

[Leslieann]

Both are throwing around a lot of BS.
I think both are powerhouses, both in performance and heat, however I also think this generation (and possibly going forward) is (arguably) trash.

We were supposed to be heading towards less and less watts and instead everyone seems to have decided the best way to go faster is just, more or less, overclock the ever living hell out of everything, regardless of heat and power requirements. Some are recommending a 1200 watt PSU for a 4080, what will they do next gen, 1500 watt power supplies? Enjoy using an entire power circuit just to run your gaming system. I can already hear the kids screaming at their moms for turning on a light and tripping the breaker, "MOM!"


Glass cases, R.I.P.
ITX , R.I.P.
Your power bill,  R.I.P.
A gaming room without dedicated air conditioning, R.I.P.
Your power bill and wallet, R.I.P.

[tp4tissue]

modern homes have 15amp sockets.  it might trip on older 10amp runs.

[fohat.digs]

ITX , R.I.P.

Since I don't understand people's fascination with with Lilliputian keyboards (unless there is a genuine need for it) I am obviously having trouble understanding minuscule motherboards. If you have no space for a decent desktop box in the vicinity of your workstation, why not just use a laptop? With my last build I relegated my colossal tower to a secondary system but still bought a new case that accommodates a full-size motherboard. (and went from about half a dozen fans to about half that - counting only the primary fans that is)
 

[Findecanor]

If you have no space for a decent desktop box in the vicinity of your workstation, why not just use a laptop?

mITX boxes still tend to have a proper selection of ports for connecting all the peripherals that you'd need at a desktop.

The thing I like best with SFF though, is that they are often designed to provide convenient access to USB and headphone ports, and sometimes even SD-card reader, with the box on the desk. No fumbling with trying to find a port among the cable mess on the side of a laptop or a box under the desk. They are right there in the front, in full visibility: you only need to move your eyes a few degrees away from the monitor to spot them.

However, you could argue that if the case is well enough designed, the actual sweet spot is actually mATX, but it is a dying breed. (I use a small-ish mATX machine on my desk ATM)

[tp4tissue]

i think the young people actually want to put the computer on their desk whereas, OLDies like TP4 would prefer never to see or hear it if possible. 

the sff makes more sense for desks, and most young people use streaming so they usually don't have drives anymore.

Tp4 thinks deskputers are dumb, even quiet computers have a whine, tp4 wants to listen to music, not piezo noise.

[Leslieann]

Since I don't understand people's fascination with with Lilliputian keyboards (unless there is a genuine need for it) I am obviously having trouble understanding minuscule motherboards. If you have no space for a decent desktop box in the vicinity of your workstation, why not just use a laptop? With my last build I relegated my colossal tower to a secondary system but still bought a new case that accommodates a full-size motherboard. (and went from about half a dozen fans to about half that - counting only the primary fans that is)

I'm not into ultra small keyboards and frankly I don't really consider them and ITX related, sure there's crossover, but the two are very different disciplines.

I've done the massive artsy server case with lights, glass and full custom water cooling... All 75+ pounds worth. It was nice but expensive, overkill and a nightmare to maintain. These days I value stealth and easy maintenance so the best computer is the one you don't even see or hear. It's far easier to hide a toaster than a mini fridge.

The reason you need half a dozen fans is because you have such a large case that you have dead spots without them but ask yourself, how many slots do you need? SLI is dead and until 2.5Gbit lan almost no one was using extra ports unless you used a capture card so you often only needed one for the GPU. When was the last time you really used everything on an ATX board? Is it a challenge, a bit, but that's also part of the fun.

Why not a laptop?
Because I can fit an entire full power desktop into something the size of a toaster and when it breaks or needs and upgrade I can replace any individual part. Lets see you upgrade the GPU on your laptop. Mine also won't sound like a jet engine when it gets hot, in fact mine's silent from 2 feet at full load.

[tp4tissue]

sff should handle these processors fine in everything except benchmarking or rendering.  but you can just ghetto rig it with the panel off and a desk fan like we all did back in the day.

[fohat.digs]

All 75+ pounds worth.

The reason you need half a dozen fans is because you have such a large case that you have dead spots without them

My early-2000s all-steel CaseTek probably weighed that with all its gear inside, multiple optical and mechanical drives, etc, it was about 40 lbs empty. They surely built it as a server case, so there were fan openings at every opportunity (the small ones). It irritated me to no end that it had a pop-up USB and headphone jack nodule on the top!

[yui]

Both are throwing around a lot of BS.
I think both are powerhouses, both in performance and heat, however I also think this generation (and possibly going forward) is (arguably) trash.

We were supposed to be heading towards less and less watts and instead everyone seems to have decided the best way to go faster is just, more or less, overclock the ever living hell out of everything, regardless of heat and power requirements. Some are recommending a 1200 watt PSU for a 4080, what will they do next gen, 1500 watt power supplies? Enjoy using an entire power circuit just to run your gaming system. I can already hear the kids screaming at their moms for turning on a light and tripping the breaker, "MOM!"


Glass cases, R.I.P.
ITX , R.I.P.
Your power bill,  R.I.P.
A gaming room without dedicated air conditioning, R.I.P.
Your power bill and wallet, R.I.P.

since the core2 era power has only went up, exception to bulldozer vs ryzen but that was like p4 vs core2, it has just went up really fast lately because, well, AMD has bought some competition to intel and nVidia, forcing everyone into a race, and the quickest and cheapest way to make more power is to eat more power (look at the pentium 4 for last time intel was under and bulldozer for AMD trying to keep up with intel for the 2010s, both ran at extremely high power and clock for their time to keep up)

[Leslieann]

since the core2 era power has only went up, exception to bulldozer vs ryzen but that was like p4 vs core2, it has just went up really fast lately because, well, AMD has bought some competition to intel and nVidia, forcing everyone into a race, and the quickest and cheapest way to make more power is to eat more power (look at the pentium 4 for last time intel was under and bulldozer for AMD trying to keep up with intel for the 2010s, both ran at extremely high power and clock for their time to keep up)

Yeah, I had a P4 that drew 250 watts.
As you overclock the power/heat ramps up exponentially and companies are basically overclocked everything right out of the box, power be damned.

I don't think you understand just how much heat these new parts are dumping under load.
You know the numbers, just not the effects of it. We're reaching space heater and microwaves in terms of power, any idea how much that will heat up a room? Worse, it's not just your computer you need to power, unless you live in the Arctic you will need air conditioning to keep the room cool.

Will people continue to build ITX, of course, doesn't mean it's practical.

[yui]

i do understand, my 1st self built pc was an overcloked pentium 4 because they were cheap and it overheated every summer and made my room a toasty 30C in the winter, after years or trying to tame it and getting money from odd jobs i got myself an FX4100 that i also overclocked, this one did not overheat but burnt my 460W psu, so still power hungry for sure.
i was just putting in perspective what was happening and the fact that it is not the 1st time amd and intel races and throw power at parts to compete, i know that the current power levels are rather insane, especially on GPU with 600+W but even in gpu it is not the 1st time they throw raw wattage at the competition, just saying it was pretty much inevitable for it to happen now on both fronts.

The reason you need half a dozen fans is because you have such a large case that you have dead spots without them

my now old tower does have 6 fans, but it is for aesthetic more than anything else, the gpu is 250W with a blower and the cpu 50W, so one fan would have been enough but would not have looked as good (it is an InWin 101 with Lian-Li aluminum fans)

[Leslieann]

Inevitable maybe but it's not practical and it's not sustainable.
They've pretty much reached a ceiling they simply can't punch through (power limits of the house), some even saw it with 30 series, so 40 series is only going to be worse.


I'm sure you did 6 fans it for aesthetics but I suspect your low wattage cpu is doing you a few favors.

[tp4tissue]

I suspect your low wattage cpu is doing you a few favors.

Tp4's 4790k only goes up to 75 watts gaming, 500rpm noiseless,  but GPU is pulling 120watt+ ~2000 rpm

[yui]

Inevitable maybe but it's not practical and it's not sustainable.
They've pretty much reached a ceiling they simply can't punch through (power limits of the house), some even saw it with 30 series, so 40 series is only going to be worse.

I'm sure you did 6 fans it for aesthetics but I suspect your low wattage cpu is doing you a few favors.

well history also shown us that it does not last and usually the side throwing the most raw wattage at the problem end up losing more market share, so yeah the 1st one finding a way out is guaranteed the crown for a few generations pretty much, and i think at least both amd and intel knows, maybe not nvidia, i think Jensen thinks he is invincible.
and yeah my low power cpu and overkill cooler does help, i had planed to get a ryzen 1700 but that was a few weeks before covid hit, and so ended up with a 1300x instead the gpu also was meant to be a bit more power hungry but had to keep my old fury nano, contributing to the overkill cooling

[Leslieann]

And so it begins...

4090 TI delayed after it reported keeps melting the (recommended) 1200 watt power supplies.
It's using DUAL 16pin connectors, and pulls 800 watts, before overclock, gee, I wonder why it keeps melting power supplies.

For those using a 16pin adapter that means 8(!) 8pin PCIE connectors.
Frankly, if you want 4090 or 4090 TI, get a (GOOD!) PSU built for it, and consider the PSU disposable as soon as the plug gets even remotely wonky because with so much power, it will not take much for this to start melting things if the connector loses or has poor contact with a pin or two. I would also check up on your home insurance fire policy as this is more than enough power for things to go nuclear.


You may laugh and think I'm over-reacting but we're starting to run into the same problem crypto miners have been dealing with for years and it's the reason so many mining rigs have been in the news due to catching fire. Some of the things being recommended, such as using multiple random 8 pin connectors is precisely the sort of things miners were warned against doing.

[tp4tissue]

/laughs in poor people.  it will never affect dat Tp4

[SBJ]

/laughs in poor people.  it will never affect dat Tp4

Show Image

I refuse to pay these prices. (at this current time)
Afraid this is the new normal though.

[Darthbaggins]

This is why I'm more interested in seeing RDNA3 and what it's going to bring to the table, since last gen did bring a raw performance fight to the market after maturity of the driver sets.  On Intel 14 will be the refinement of the 12th & 13th, that is their normal cycle (which was thrown off with AMD's die shrink improvements).