are HHKBs and Realforces ergonomic?

[jpc]

Are they comfortable to use for a long period of time?

I like the Kinesis Contoured, with Colemak layout and touch typing. The light cherry browns are comfortable. Would lighter, smoother topres be similarly good or better?

When I switch back to a standard layout with heavier keys, I miss the browns and the non-staggered keys more than anything else about the Kinesis.

[bdpq]

The typing experience can be quite different on the topre switches if you are accustomed to the tactile feedback on the cherry brown.  Your finger won't get that tingly feeling of "yeah, that key was truly pressed and activated."

While both employ the topre capacitive switch, HHKB and Realforce have different approach to "ergonomic".  However, I would't use "ergonomic design" to describe their approach.  Instead, "user comfort" would be a better term in my opinion.

The majority of Realforce boards use a "variable key force" membrane with different thickness on the pinky keys to allow an easier key press, some users love the design while some others sought for their "all-30g" or "all-55g" evenly distributed models.

On the other hand, the HHKB uses an evenly distributed 45g membrane. But their approach on user comfort focuses on eliminating hand movements and finger stretch by removing useless keys.  So one's wrist movement could be reduced.  The minimalist approach encourages users adopting the concept of the 2nd layer key function by using the fn key. If you spend some time getting use to it or have been a unix/emac user, You will find the HHKB addictive.  

I would't go that far saying they are ergoonmic, but both have some benefit in improving user comfort. (one could also argue they are too small to award any credit.)

[theferenc]

Well, the 45g keys on the HHKB feel heavier to my fingers than the browns on the kinesis. I don't like how light the browns are, personally, but I'm trying to get used to the kinesis.

I definitely prefer my HHKB though, to the kinesis, in that I find it more comfortable to type on for long periods of time. In both cases, I bottom out the keys, but the bottoming out on the HHKB is much softer, so not as jarring to my finger joints (that's where most of my pain is). I just have a hard time getting used to how light the browns really are.

In regards to tactility, you do know when a topre has actuated, there is just so little resistance past that point (when the dome collapses), that you basically can't stop your fingers without serious effort. At least I can't. Maybe someone comfortable with the lightness of the browns will be able to.

[jpc]

@theferenc: Do you touch type or hunt and peck?

After learning colemak home row touch typing, I type lighter and don't bottom out browns.

It's the most worthwhile thing you can do with a free month :biggrin:

[theferenc]

I touch type, but not "properly". I type fairly quickly, but I hit some keys with the wrong finger, some keys with the wrong hand. It works well for me, and I find it much more comfortable than the proper method. It does make the kinesis a trip to use, though. Basically, my left hand does more work than my right. But it is still touch typing.

[hyperlinked]

My two favorite switches are Topres and Browns in that order. I can type on Browns without bottoming out. I can't do the same on Topres unless I type ridiculously slow. I have wrist tendinitis and I have to have nice keyboards for the health of my hands. I don't experience much difference between Topres and Browns in so far as how they affect my tendinitis. Both are the most comfortable for me to use and even though I bottom out more on Topres, it doesn't seem to make a difference perhaps because I bottom out very lightly on Topres whereas when I bottom out on a Brown it tends to be harder.

Also, the HHKB layout definitely cannot be called ergonomic for one reason alone. Sure it decreases the amount of reaching that you have to do, but at the cost of greatly increasing the amount of static holding your hands have to do because of the modifier keys. Reaching is not necessarily harzardous to your hands if you have good typing form, but excessive sustained tension is never a good thing. On most keyboards it takes the work of one hand to use arrow keys. On the HHKB, it will either always take two hands or you'll need to use your right hand in a novel way to be able to hit the modifier and arrow keys at the same time.

Now that I've said that the excessive use of the modifier keys is not a good thing I have to admit that I have my Realforce remapped so that I have a HHKB-like layout for quick access to arrow keys. Yeah, it's bad for my hands and maybe that's one reason why I can't shake my tendinitis, but the convenience is something I'd have a hard time giving up.