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Offline Langley

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Small keyboards.
« on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 01:05:24 »
Hello! I've been digging around trying to find a small keyboard minus the number pad that could stand up to extremely heavy use, and was directed here. I love to write, do light programming, gaming, and spend most of my spare time on the computer. Because of this, I've developed carpal tunnel in both wrists. It had been getting better, but because of an accident with my old keyboard (orange juice with extra pulp, completely uncleanable) I've been forced onto a Microsoft KB-0168 and my wrists now feel like they are going to DIE. Anyway, I can't live without my computer, so this paycheck will be entirely dedicated fully to a keyboard. I can stand clicky, but Das Keyboard was kind of overkill for me in the sound department. I want a small one and the lower number of needless keys, the better, though it's far more important that the keys are low strain. Anyway, suggestions would be very much appreciated. Let me know if there's some kind of cult ritual that would help with the process.
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Offline maxlugar

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 01:34:44 »
Quote from: Langley;130037
Hello! I've been digging around trying to find a small keyboard minus the number pad that could stand up to extremely heavy use, and was directed here. I love to write, do light programming, gaming, and spend most of my spare time on the computer. Because of this, I've developed carpal tunnel in both wrists. It had been getting better, but because of an accident with my old keyboard (orange juice with extra pulp, completely uncleanable) I've been forced onto a Microsoft KB-0168 and my wrists now feel like they are going to DIE. Anyway, I can't live without my computer, so this paycheck will be entirely dedicated fully to a keyboard. I can stand clicky, but Das Keyboard was kind of overkill for me in the sound department. I want a small one and the lower number of needless keys, the better, though it's far more important that the keys are low strain. Anyway, suggestions would be very much appreciated. Let me know if there's some kind of cult ritual that would help with the process.


HHKB Pro 2.  It is pricey but highly recommended. (can't really compare it to the das).

Look up All Things Topre in the Wiki for a review of the HHKB Pro 2

You may also want to investigate a Topre Realforce keyboard.
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Offline Langley

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 01:55:26 »
I certainly like the way they sound after listening to a few clips. Is it me, or does the realforce seem sturdier? Though I do like super-compactness of the happy hacking one. Small keyboards seem hard to find, I'm not really running into many. I guess I'm probably looking in the wrong places.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 02:05:25 »
also hhkb pro2

EDIT but yes the realforce is supposedly sturdier
my hhkb does not flex, and seems very sturdy for its weight, but i recently have been able to make it creak by giving it some stress
« Last Edit: Tue, 03 November 2009, 02:08:06 by AndrewZorn »
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Offline Hakhu

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 02:56:42 »
If you don't want to spend quite that much a Filco Tenkeyless with brown Cherry switches might also be the one for you. Not clicky and low actuation force.
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Offline Langley

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 03:47:14 »
I just spent two hours reading about switches. I should be asleep. I'll check the Filco out in the morning. Thanks!
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Offline kyamei

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 04:40:05 »
+1 for the HHKB Pro 2 or Realforce.  

I personally prefer the Realforce, but the HHKB sounds more like what you're looking for.
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Topre:  Realforce 101, Realforce 87U, HHKB Pro 2
Cherry Brown:  Compaq MX11800
Cherry Blue:  Filco FKBN87MC/EB
Cherry Black:  K-202 numerical keypad
Alps Black:  AT101W, ABS M1
Alps White:  Focus FK-2001
Buckling Springs:  Model M 1391401, Lexmark Model M 82G2383, Model M2
Buckling Sleeves:  Unicomp Model M4
Futaba:  Sejin EAT-1010

Offline Rajagra

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 06:17:26 »
My only concern about the HHKB Pro 2 is having to use the Fn key with numbers to get Function keys. Same for arrow keys to a lesser extent. For someone who already has carpal tunnel etc., that might be a no-no.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 08:36:22 »
do you use F keys so often?
even if so, its nice to be able to reach them from the home row

the arrow keys i understand your concern, but its not as bad as i once thought it would be
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Offline Rajagra

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 10:29:02 »
The OP mentioned programming, so function keys might be used a lot. I suppose it's not a problem if you configure the left diamond key to be another Fn. I keep forgetting about that option. But the default use of the right-hand Fn with the arrows could aggravate existing pain - even though it's said to be comfortable, it's still a contortion of the hand so might carry risk.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 11:25:52 »
yes, i think a left fn is the way it should have been from the start... along with the 'return' and 'backspace' options

EDIT and i still dont get some of the things i read about when people mention 'programming'.  am i the only one that when 'programming' just kind of uses more things like <>& ...not some sort of fancy IDE or emacs or something?
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Offline timw4mail

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 14:55:29 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;130149
yes, i think a left fn is the way it should have been from the start... along with the 'return' and 'backspace' options

EDIT and i still dont get some of the things i read about when people mention 'programming'.  am i the only one that when 'programming' just kind of uses more things like <>& ...not some sort of fancy IDE or emacs or something?

It seems only the 'professionals' use the bloated IDEs or eccentric ancient text editors.
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Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline Langley

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 16:53:23 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;130149
yes, i think a left fn is the way it should have been from the start... along with the 'return' and 'backspace' options

EDIT and i still dont get some of the things i read about when people mention 'programming'.  am i the only one that when 'programming' just kind of uses more things like <>& ...not some sort of fancy IDE or emacs or something?


For some reason, I find it to be a completely different kind of strain on the wrist than normal typing. It seems to stress more on the sides of the wrist rather than the inside. I mostly just use notepad and almost never use function keys, but programming does tend to be the one place I use arrow keys.

I've decided to order the Filco since it's cheaper and I liked the sound it makes, and after digging around the forums it seems that the only way I'm going to figure it out is buying trying them out. So I guess I'll just pace myself and order them one at a time until I find one I like. Thanks for the help! Keyboards are actually pretty interesting, I think I'll just lurk around and soak up more info.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 03 November 2009, 16:56:50 »
I wonder if people have ever considered replacing the Caps Lock with a Fn key and placing it where there's a right Ctrl. Just an interesting thought.
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Offline Rajagra

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 04 November 2009, 08:13:28 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;130243
I wonder if people have ever considered replacing the Caps Lock with a Fn key and placing it where there's a right Ctrl. Just an interesting thought.


I've used CapsLock as a Fn key for AutoHotkey, using it to turn the WASD keys into arrows.

It's embarrassing just how comfortable it is.

Only reason I stopped was to use CapsLock as Backspace. I may revert though.
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Offline maxlugar

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 04 November 2009, 14:58:36 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;130090
do you use F keys so often?
even if so, its nice to be able to reach them from the home row

the arrow keys i understand your concern, but its not as bad as i once thought it would be


The Realforce 23UB number pad is just as awesome as the other Topre key switch products and pairs nicely with the HHKB Pro 2 i.e. they look like they go together.  However, it does cost as much as the Filco Majestouch 104-key with Brown Cherry key switches.

I know having a separate number pad consumes more real estate on your desk top and kind of defeats the HHKB form factor benefits.  However, as a bean counter,  it was not practical for me to not have a dedicated numeric keypad.  A fringe benefit of the 23U is being able to use the arrow keys when numlock is disengaged.

The only product I have tried with Brown Cherry MX keyswitches is the Filco FKB22MB number pad.  It is OK, better than your cheapo $15 office store number pad, but I find the feel of the Realforce 23U to be superior.  

Ironically, I prefer the tactile response from the Topre key switches to the Brown Cherries.  I am a very heavy handed typist and cannot avoid bottoming out each key stroke.  I find the soft landing of the Topre keyswitches pleasant and as a result I find I can type faster and more accurately on Topre key switch boards.
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Offline microsoft windows

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 04 November 2009, 19:42:08 »
I like the standard 101/104 key layout the best. It's just the easiest for me.
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Offline maxlugar

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 04 November 2009, 19:53:55 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;130437
I like the standard 101/104 key layout the best. It's just the easiest for me.


Besides, most standard 101/104 layout keyboards cost much less than $200    :)
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Offline rdjack21

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 04 November 2009, 22:55:31 »
Quote from: maxlugar;130439
Besides, most standard 101/104 layout keyboards cost much less than $200    :)


Not if you are getting a Realforce. But still cheaper than a 87U or HHKB Pro.
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Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard
Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline microsoft windows

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 05 November 2009, 16:18:07 »
More keys for less.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 05 November 2009, 18:55:31 »
an argument that still pains me, but doesnt change the fact that you still want the HHKB more, and thus, will pay more for it.
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Offline o2dazone

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Small keyboards.
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 06 November 2009, 00:04:35 »
If you have bigger hands, or you might be concerned about the arrow keys on the HHKB, crunching your fingers together, try using a ring finger, and use your index/middle finger (or just your index finger) to operate your arrow keys. I do about 9 hours of front end web stuff all day, and then about 2-5 hours at home, it becomes second nature, and you adapt to what's more comfortable (not using a left Fn key, personally. Need all the super/meta keys you can get on Macs. Blah)
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #22 on: Fri, 06 November 2009, 15:16:44 »
I don't know. That sounds like a lot of trouble for me when I currently have something that works. Guess I'm not feeling that adventurous today.
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