backlit N-key

[ccb]

I was interested to see there is a thread on n-key capability.  I am a Braille transcriber for the Lib. of Congress and we have to use a keyboard with the n-key capability.  Usually that means an old-timey one.  I would like to get a newer one with backlighting.  Does anyone know a model that does this?

(Brailling uses the keys s-d-f-j-k-l and as a test, the keyboard must be able to type all 6 keys at once though not necessarily in that order.)

Thanks for any info.

Christina

[bhtooefr]

http://www.deckkeyboards.com/legend.php

N-key rollover and backlighting.

There may be others, but that one came to mind first.

[ccb]

Thank you so much.  I will make sure other braillers have this info. also.  There is a lot of information for the blind but very little for those who use the special software with its needs for doing the brailling.

[Whiskey in the Jar-o]

How easy would it be to press multiple keys on that kind of keyboard, with it using MX linear switches and all?

[iMav]

I was interested to see there is a thread on n-key capability.  I am a Braille transcriber for the Lib. of Congress and we have to use a keyboard with the n-key capability.  Usually that means an old-timey one.  I would like to get a newer one with backlighting.  Does anyone know a model that does this?

Welcome to geekhack Christina!  

I'd be interested in knowing how you ended up being a braille transcriber.  Do you have friends or family that are blind and that prompted you to want do something to help?  Or did you simply find Braille interesting?

BTW, when you say that you guys typically use "old-timey" keyboards, what models are you typically using?  (the keyboard geek in me just needs to know what everyone is using)  

[ashort]

I think it's great that we have a practical use for nkey rollover now!  I always thought it was just a "gamer thing".  Since I suck at most games too bad to get even 4 keys at a time in my own repertoire, I didn't care at all.  

Now I care a little.

[xsphat]

Here here ^^

[ccb]

I've had various vision problems all my life and was interested in hearing about Braille classes.  It took a year of training from the Lib. of Congress but I am glad I did.  I do Discover Magazine and books for them.

I attended a Braille meeting today and told them the gaming keyboards looked like a great alternative to the very old $10 ones.  I am using an old Dell myself and the others all had old ones of various sorts.  We had to give up our newer ones at the time because they didn't have the n-key rollover.  But thanks to gamers, we can now go to the higher-tech ones!

Thanks so much for the replies and the interest!

Christina

[pex]

We had to give up our newer ones at the time because they didn't have the n-key rollover. But thanks to gamers, we can now go to the higher-tech ones!

Wow.

I'd sure like to see that in news articles instead of

But thanks to gamers, now our children are dead!

[bhtooefr]

I will note that even my Model M (which is only 2-key rollover) just successfully pulled off the s-d-f-j-k-l combination, so if those are the only keys you're pressing at the same time, you might not necessarily need an n-key rollover board, as long as that particular combination has 6-key rollover.

[ccb]

Is that model M a deckkeyboard?  I decided to make a list of compatible models and see that Braille transcriber groups elsewhere get the information.  Thanks for trying that out for me.  I'm looking forward to an exciting new keyboard at last!

Christina

[bhtooefr]

Nope, the Model M is an ancient IBM keyboard, originally released in 1985. No backlighting at all, so it's not what you're looking for.

I prefer mine because of the excellent feel - I have no need for n-key rollover or backlighting, so...

The Déck is n-key, so it's guaranteed to work for that combo, but you might look at lower-cost alternatives, and find out if they support that specific combo.

[xsphat]

"i bought $207.67 of keyboards ..." ^^

I've spent more than that on one keyboard.

[xsphat]

I've spent over $500 in the last year on mechanical keyboards.

[bhtooefr]

Egads.

Then again, I've been tempted to pay more than that for one keyboard (until I found the same thing for much, much less elsewhere. That's how it goes with Model M13s.)

[ccb]

Then your keyboard is the kind we have been using - old IBMs mainly.  There is even one place that sells long-discontinued keyboards to transcribers because it has been so hard to find ones that work.  But a new day is dawning for us volunteers!!

[bhtooefr]

I'll note that there's a source for those same old IBMs that you've been using, in current production - http://www.pckeyboard.com - starting at $59 for the Customizer 101, which is the same model as the IBM Model M. So, it's much cheaper than the Déck keyboard, and comes with an 18 month warranty (unlike used keyboards,) for if someone just wants a regular keyboard, and doesn't care about backlighting.

[xsphat]

Egads.

Then again, I've been tempted to pay more than that for one keyboard (until I found the same thing for much, much less elsewhere. That's how it goes with Model M13s.)

A while back I saw a Cherry adjustable with browns on eBay. I bid I think $150 and it ended up going for $388! Now that's love. If I'm paying that much it better do the dishes too.

[bhtooefr]

Hey, there've been Model M15s that went for $700...

[xsphat]

There is even one place that sells long-discontinued keyboards to transcribers because it has been so hard to find ones that work.

Do you have a link? I have a feeling some of us here would like to see it.

And I have heard that backlighting actually slows typists, for your information.

[ccb]

I can't find that link again - I saw it some time ago - but will continue looking.

As far as speed, brailling is very slow and speed won't matter.  I have been doing this for some time and it takes me about an hour to Braille about 4 printed pages.  Brailling one issue of Discover Magazine takes 1 1/2 weeks of my free time.  (I guess that is why it is done by volunteers - to pay by the hour would make any book worth its weight in gold!)

[IBI]

I've just done a quick check of some keyboards:

None of these are gamer rollovers (i.e. they fail on W-D-E)

Blue Label IBM Model M UK layout: sdfjkl (success)

Dell AT102W: sdfjkl  (success)

Gateway 2000 branded Maxiswitch: sdfjkl (success)

latest apple wireless keyboard: sdfjkl (success)

Microsoft Internet keyboard: sdfjl (failure)

RM keyboard of some description: sdfjl (failure)


They're pretty interesting results, but the only modern one is the apple keyboard and that's not backlit. Still, the only keyboard I'd not expect to see in a shop today in terms of styling is the model M, and that just looks more industrial than old.

I didn't realise there were several ways to fail rollover, If these keyboards can fill your requirements but not gamer's then maybe the opposite is true, that a gamer's keyboard would have the key combinations that they would want but not the ones that you would want. Anything advertised as 'full n-key rollover' should do any combinations since that's what that means but something like "Gaming cluster with anti-ghosting capability" is probably great for gaming but may not do what you want.

Razer also do backlit keyboards, but I don't know if any of those have appropriate rollover, the same goes for the logitech G15.

[ccb]

Thank you so much!  I'm sending that list around to some transcriber groups.  I'm the only one who wanted one backlit so any kind that has the 6-key capability would be great for others.

[bhtooefr]

I didn't realise there were several ways to fail rollover, If these keyboards can fill your requirements but not gamer's then maybe the opposite is true, that a gamer's keyboard would have the key combinations that they would want but not the ones that you would want. Anything advertised as 'full n-key rollover' should do any combinations since that's what that means but something like "Gaming cluster with anti-ghosting capability" is probably great for gaming but may not do what you want.

Well, it all depends on how the key decoding matrix is laid out. Different key decoding matrix = different rollover failures.

[IBI]

Thank you so much!  I'm sending that list around to some transcriber groups.  I'm the only one who wanted one backlit so any kind that has the 6-key capability would be great for others.

My list? Well bear in mind that these are all UK keyboards and it sounds like you're in the US. The UK layout has a double height enter and an extra #/~ key on the same row as the test keys so I don't know if that makes any difference.

The equivelent model dell in the US is the AT101/AT101W (the latter has windows keys I believe).

[ecru]

Unicomp 42H1292U, 02/01/08 (modern build of the IBM Model M)
Interface: ps/2
Operating System: Debian Lenny - dvorak layout
Fails: s-d-f-j-k-l (oeuhtn on dvorak layout)

It is interesting that the original IBM Model M's pass.  I'll have to keep my eyes open for one.

[bhtooefr]

Now that's interesting, that it fails on a Unicomp board...

[zillidot]

I didn't realise there were several ways to fail rollover, If these keyboards can fill your requirements but not gamer's then maybe the opposite is true, that a gamer's keyboard would have the key combinations that they would want but not the ones that you would want. Anything advertised as 'full n-key rollover' should do any combinations since that's what that means but something like "Gaming cluster with anti-ghosting capability" is probably great for gaming but may not do what you want.

Hey that is quite interesting! Someone should add this info to the n-key rollover thread.

[IBI]

It's been confirmed in another thread here that the saitek eclipse supports sdfjkl. It's also a backlit keyboard and not too expensive.

[xsphat]

It's been confirmed in another thread here that the saitek eclipse supports sdfjkl. It's also a backlit keyboard and not too expensive.

That's a membrane job, right?

[IBI]

That's a membrane job, right?

It is, yes

[xsphat]

Poopy. Poopy poopy poopy membrane ich!

[bhtooefr]

I'll note that every Model M has a membrane.

(Oh yes, I went there. )

Eww... rubber domes.

[xsphat]

And I think the Model M feels like the membrane it is at the bottom of each key stroke. Thats why I don't like buckling springs.

OOOOHHH!!! Yes, I went there!!

[iMav]

And I think the Model M feels like the membrane it is at the bottom of each key stroke. Thats why I don't like buckling springs.

The membrane has nothing to do with the Model M's tactile feedback.  It's ALL about those wonderful buckling springs!

The typical membrane keyboard feels mushy because the membrane switch itself is what provides the feedback.  Model M's are membranes done RIGHT.  

[bhtooefr]

xsphat: Tried a Model F? (Or a PC-AT keyboard - you can use the AT one on a modern PC, with an AT to PS/2 adapter.)

Can't use the membrane excuse on that one.

(I've not actually typed at speed on a capacitive switching buckling spring keyboard, but I've heard they feel even better than the Model M.)

[xsphat]

I know this is like walking into a church and dissing whatever god their religion fabricated and all, but you can't deny that the end of the keystroke on a Model feels just as crappy as the Dell space saver. It's as if beneath the springs is a big bowl of mashed potatoes waiting there for ya.  

I've been thinking about trying one of those Model F or AT things you mentioned, but I don't think I will get around to it.

[ashort]

"Mashed Potatoes":  great on your plate, not under your keycaps.  =-)

[iMav]

but you can't deny that the end of the keystroke on a Model feels just as crappy as the Dell space saver. It's as if beneath the springs is a big bowl of mashed potatoes waiting there for ya.

I push a key on my Model M and there is a SNAP as the spring buckles...I then release.  

And, if I do push all the way down, there is no mushy feel.  That is because the membrane switches on the Model M's are not designed to provide resistance/feedback/etc (that is the job of the buckling spring)...on all my Model M's, the bottom of the keystroke is solid.

Unless Model M mini's are significantly different than "normal" Model M's, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[xsphat]

That's how mine feels, for whatever reason. That's why I want to try out the next thing from Unicomp so I can see if new ones are better.

[bhtooefr]

Yeah, I'm not sure what you're talking about either.

And, you're not supposed to bottom out a Model M anyway...

[sashomasho]

Yeah, I'm not sure what you're talking about either.

And, you're not supposed to bottom out a Model M anyway...

how's that? all my model Ms  (3 of them) register the click at probably 4/5 from the key press. so it's not like i have any chance not to bottom it, i still like them, but they are slowly being replaced, one after another...

[alpslover]

That's how mine feels, for whatever reason. That's why I want to try out the next thing from Unicomp so I can see if new ones are better.

model m's can vary widely in terms of feel, sound and action.  newer also isn't necessarily better.  the lexmarks-made m's i have, for example, don't feel as solid as my older ibm-made m's, in terms of both overall keyboard construction and keyswitch feel.

[xsphat]

model m's can vary widely in terms of feel, sound and action.

Thank you.

[bhtooefr]

sashomasho: I would say closer to 2/3 on all the ones I own, and I don't find it hard to not bottom out.

(Of course, when I transition to a laptop keyboard, I'm bottoming out HARD. )

alpslover: This is true. 1391401 is generally regarded as the best, and my best for typing is a 1391401. I still prefer my EnduraPro, though, with USB and a pointing stick. (And, my EnduraPro, after some break-in, is softening up. It's much softer than my 1391401 on most keys, now, but still VERY responsive. I like it.)

[ecru]

Focus Electronics FK6200 (branded EZ KEY), no date on label or cast in the plastic
Interface: 5 pin DIN replaced with PS/2
Operating System: Debian Lenny - dvorak layout
Passes: s-d-f-j-k-l (oeuhtn on dvorak layout)

Note it feels better to type on than typical keyboards, but it isn't all that great.

[ecru]

Filco Majestouch Mini FKB100M/NB
Interface: usb or supplied ps/2 adaptor give the same result
Operating System: Debian Lenny - generic 104, mapped to dvorak
Passes: s-d-f-j-k-l (oeuhtn on dvorak layout)