[IC] GON Custom Alps PCB's/Keyboard (NOW WITH FORM)

[dante]

A few of us have asked GON to take on providing a Alps keyboard for a while now.  Now that Matias is soon to be coming out with keycap solutions - it's time to test the waters to see what design we can agree on for a first GB.

Since KBParadise and Matias are coming out with 60% boards and Matias already has "Mini" and Fullsize boards my suggestions are either 75% or 87%.

No specifics are given at this point; just want to see how many people would at a minimum be interested in picking up PCB's.

PCB's/Controllers will run $50-$75 (just a guess-timate off current MX pricing); assembled keyboards will be likely $350-$500.

Please note: I have NOT talked to GON/Matias about this yet - I just want to get a feel (Interest Check) to see how popular these options would be.


Interest check form is here.

[Tiramisuu]

The only reason i didn't go on the v60 is not programmable so don't be trying to sneak the there's already a 60% by me. 

60% fully programmable,  hhkb layout,  alps    and room for a bluetooth module 

[exitfire401]

The only reason i didn't go on the v60 is not programmable so don't be trying to sneak the there's already a 60% by me. 

60% fully programmable,  hhkb layout,  alps    and room for a bluetooth module 

This would be my ideal model, but I'd settle for this without bluetooth

[nubbinator]

I hate 75% boards since they always look terrible to me, have wonky layouts, and tend to be hard to find correct profile caps for.  If it had to be one of those two layouts 87% (Tenkeyless) would be the preferred.

That said, I'd want a 60% Gon.  It shouldn't be too tough for him to add the functionality to his existing PCB and if it was MX/Alps, it would make it easier to get the GB through, especially if you did a black PCB or something similar.

And since I have my own switches I'd want to use, I'd prefer a PCB/Case/stabilizer/maybe caps option.

[dustinhxc]

Whoa.. ALPS by GON.. You have my attention.. If he can source Complicated orange Im in for full build. Otherwise just PCB and Plate for me.

[fohat.digs]

I can't use anything smaller than 87, but I might be interested.

What is the keycap scenario? Particularly with respect to stabilizers and spacebars?

[Tiramisuu]

Gon Bluetooth module...
http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/pcbs-and-controllers/119-bluetooth-option-set-for-nerd.html

My better half choked on my poker purchase.   I may have to sell a testicle for the perfect keyboard but it might be worth it.

[ComradeSniper]

I would be very interested in a 60% GON alps board, slightly less so in a TKL but I would probably buy either. Not a fan of 75%.

Wouldn't be too interested in a full build because I'd want to use vintage complicated alps.

[Tiramisuu]

I would also like to try my hand at assembly.   I'd likely use the matias quiet click but it would still be fun to do the soldering.

[dante]

Whoa.. ALPS by GON.. You have my attention.. If he can source Complicated orange Im in for full build. Otherwise just PCB and Plate for me.

I don't have high hopes for him finding vintage Alps switches.  If anything, it will be enough just getting him to switch over to Alps in the first place.

I can't use anything smaller than 87, but I might be interested.

What is the keycap scenario? Particularly with respect to stabilizers and spacebars?

Waiting on Matias to release stabilizer/keycap specs.  I wanted to get a head of the game by having Matias submit keycap info ahead of release so GON can have time to digest it.

Personally I am voting for a tenkeyless; there are already two 60% options on the market - it would be nice for a change to have something different.

[nubbinator]

Personally I am voting for a tenkeyless; there are already two 60% options on the market - it would be nice for a change to have something different.

The Matias one is pretty bad though, if you ask me.  The layout is wonky and caps will be totally proprietary to that keyboard, making it difficult to do any real customization.  And with the upcoming SP Alps cap GB... 

The V60 is interesting, but it's $120 for a board I'd be swapping the switches on and doesn't have the same amount of customization as Gon's. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to have an option that isn't a Ducky, but it still needs some work to really be worth the $120 to me.

Also, there's already a nice Korean Alps TKL on the market right now, the Kingsaver.  I know I'm partial toward 60% boards, so of course I'll be pushing for one, but I don't really see it as a niche that's full yet since the 60% options out there are pretty wanting and there's already an awesome TKL Alps board out there.

The only TKL or full board I'd really be interested in is a flipped one with a left hand side cluster.

[geniekid]

I'd be interested in a PCB in one of the three formats:

• 60%
• TK (either Lightsaver style or CM QFTK style)
• TKL with full right-hand cluster (like the Phantom)

Even if I don't end up getting one of those three, I still want to say that this is a really cool project   GON is really amazing.

[Badwrench]

Personally I am voting for a tenkeyless; there are already two 60% options on the market - it would be nice for a change to have something different.

The Matias one is pretty bad though, if you ask me.  The layout is wonky and caps will be totally proprietary to that keyboard, making it difficult to do any real customization.  And with the upcoming SP Alps cap GB... 

The V60 is interesting, but it's $120 for a board I'd be swapping the switches on and doesn't have the same amount of customization as Gon's. Don't get me wrong, it is nice to have an option that isn't a Ducky, but it still needs some work to really be worth the $120 to me.

Also, there's already a nice Korean Alps TKL on the market right now, the Kingsaver.  I know I'm partial toward 60% boards, so of course I'll be pushing for one, but I don't really see it as a niche that's full yet since the 60% options out there are pretty wanting and there's already an awesome TKL Alps board out there.

The only TKL or full board I'd really be interested in is a flipped one with a left hand side cluster.

Exactly.  I am glad that there is the option of the v60, but would rather build my own 60% (pure layout for me, thanks) with a nice custom plate and programmable pcb.

[korrelate]

alps or alps+mx and black pcb = take my money!

if this os also compatible with your cases then take even more of it!

I've got complicated blues lying in wait for a board like this!

[CommonCurt]

Would be down for a 60% plate+PCB if they will fit in after market cases.

Possibly a TKL if GON has other case options besides low profile.

[Applet]

I'd be interested in a PCB (and plate) for 60% or TKL 

[Puddsy]

TKL or no dice for me

[nubbinator]

If it had to be TKL (which would make me sad and would take more to source good caps for) is there a chance for flipped TKL with arrow keys and home/delete/etc on the left side?

[Matias]

I can't use anything smaller than 87, but I might be interested.

What is the keycap scenario? Particularly with respect to stabilizers and spacebars?

Waiting on Matias to release stabilizer/keycap specs.  I wanted to get a head of the game by having Matias submit keycap info ahead of release so GON can have time to digest it.

Personally I am voting for a tenkeyless; there are already two 60% options on the market - it would be nice for a change to have something different.

I'll be posting an update on the keycap situation soon, but I was able to get a Cherry keycap working with our stock stab clips and an Ione balance bar.  I also tried a Costar balance bar, but it was too short.

This means that it should be easy to design a single mounting plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, including the caps that require stabilizers.  It also means that we'll be able to get SP's ALPS keycaps to fit, since they use Cherry mounts for the stabs.

For those interested in a Matias 87, there's an IC running now for a backlit one with aluminum case option.  We've suggested including a non-backlit option, to make it more attractive to those for which keyboards are already sufficient bright.  :-)

[Badwrench]

I can't use anything smaller than 87, but I might be interested.

What is the keycap scenario? Particularly with respect to stabilizers and spacebars?

Waiting on Matias to release stabilizer/keycap specs.  I wanted to get a head of the game by having Matias submit keycap info ahead of release so GON can have time to digest it.

Personally I am voting for a tenkeyless; there are already two 60% options on the market - it would be nice for a change to have something different.

I'll be posting an update on the keycap situation soon, but I was able to get a Cherry keycap working with our stock stab clips and an Ione balance bar.  I also tried a Costar balance bar, but it was too short.

This means that it should be easy to design a single mounting plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, including the caps that require stabilizers.  It also means that we'll be able to get SP's ALPS keycaps to fit, since they use Cherry mounts for the stabs.

For those interested in a Matias 87, there's an IC running now for a backlit one with aluminum case option.  We've suggested including a non-backlit option, to make it more attractive to those for which keyboards are already sufficient bright.  :-)

Excellent news 

[dustinhxc]

I change my vote to PCB + Plate. Either TKL, 70% (Like the Leopold), or 60%. I dont do full size much.

[pasph]

Interested in 75% or TKL

[Matias]

I'll be posting an update on the keycap situation soon, but I was able to get a Cherry keycap working with our stock stab clips and an Ione balance bar.  I also tried a Costar balance bar, but it was too short.

This means that it should be easy to design a single mounting plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, including the caps that require stabilizers.  It also means that we'll be able to get SP's ALPS keycaps to fit, since they use Cherry mounts for the stabs.

For those interested in a Matias 87, there's an IC running now for a backlit one with aluminum case option.  We've suggested including a non-backlit option, to make it more attractive to those for which keyboards are already sufficient bright.  :-)

Excellent news 

Okay, I got it working.  See attached photos...  :-)

[Badwrench]

I'll be posting an update on the keycap situation soon, but I was able to get a Cherry keycap working with our stock stab clips and an Ione balance bar.  I also tried a Costar balance bar, but it was too short.

This means that it should be easy to design a single mounting plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, including the caps that require stabilizers.  It also means that we'll be able to get SP's ALPS keycaps to fit, since they use Cherry mounts for the stabs.

For those interested in a Matias 87, there's an IC running now for a backlit one with aluminum case option.  We've suggested including a non-backlit option, to make it more attractive to those for which keyboards are already sufficient bright.  :-)

Excellent news 

Okay, I got it working.  See attached photos...  :-)



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Nice and simple.  Why the different spacing on the alps/Matias stabilizers?  If the caps use the same spacing as mx switches, couldn't you just use the same wider spacing?

[Matias]

I'll be posting an update on the keycap situation soon, but I was able to get a Cherry keycap working with our stock stab clips and an Ione balance bar.  I also tried a Costar balance bar, but it was too short.

This means that it should be easy to design a single mounting plate that supports both ALPS and Cherry, including the caps that require stabilizers.  It also means that we'll be able to get SP's ALPS keycaps to fit, since they use Cherry mounts for the stabs.

For those interested in a Matias 87, there's an IC running now for a backlit one with aluminum case option.  We've suggested including a non-backlit option, to make it more attractive to those for which keyboards are already sufficient bright.  :-)

Excellent news 

Okay, I got it working.  See attached photos...  :-)


(Attachment Link)

Nice and simple.  Why the different spacing on the alps/Matias stabilizers?  If the caps use the same spacing as mx switches, couldn't you just use the same wider spacing?

The mounting plate clips need to be in exactly the right spot for Cherry -- otherwise the balance bar will not stay centred.

For ALPS, the clips can be anywhere there's room, since the ALPS balance bar is held centred by the keycap.

In theory, it should be possible to consolidate the two to both use the Cherry clips, but that will come later.  This is just a proof of concept -- a successful one!   

[geniekid]

GON says we need 50+ orders for an Alps NerD60 PCB.  Should we put up some Google form to record interest?

[CPTBadAss]

I'm interested in a 60% or 75%

[ComradeSniper]

GON says we need 50+ orders for an Alps NerD60 PCB.  Should we put up some Google form to record interest?

Sounds good to me 

[nubbinator]

GON says we need 50+ orders for an Alps NerD60 PCB.  Should we put up some Google form to record interest?

Sounds good to me 

Do it.  Depending on price, I'd be in for 2-3 with plates.

[geniekid]

I don't mind making the form but I don't want to step on any toes.  This was dante's OP after all.

[dante]

I don't mind making the form but I don't want to step on any toes.  This was dante's OP after all.

You can go ahead and make a form

It sounds like everyone wants a 3rd 60% Alps entry - who am I to argue with the majority?

[geniekid]

Well I will ask in the form whether people are interested in TKL, 60%, or Mini.  I think demand for TKL might be a little low with the 12 Kingsavers Elton sold over the last few months but we will see! 

I'll probably also ask whether there's interest in PCB or plate+PCB+case.  GON said as long as there's 50 PCBs between those options he'll try to make it happen which I assume means they will be compatible with the existing NerD cases and whatever those layouts are compatible with.

As always it's striking a balance between too many options vs focusing on meeting MOQ.  I will think about what should be on the form and get one up by tomorrow.

[geniekid]

Interest check form is here.

Some things to note:

• Estimated prices come via Gon's website for the corresponding MX versions.
• Responses are public.
• User name is not required.

Hopefully when Dante sees this we can update the OP

[nubbinator]

Since it's Alps, plates will be necessary.  The form should be plate+PCB or PCB+case since Gon has the plate integrated into his case design.

[geniekid]

Since it's Alps, plates will be necessary.  The form should be plate+PCB or PCB+case since Gon has the plate integrated into his case design.

I struggled a bit with this since I know at least one person who wants to make his own plate, but I think you're right - the vast majority of people who would want a PCB without a GON case would probably want a plate.  I am editing the form right now.

[geniekid]

Alright - the form has been edited.  I will PM GON to get a better idea on prices and make sure this is doable although he is usually very accommodating when it comes to things like this

[geniekid]

I have information to share!

60%

• PCBs have a MOQ of 50 @ $55
• Plates in aluminum or polycarbonate have a combined MOQ of 20 @ $45
• Housing doesn't have a MOQ and will cost $186

TKL

• PCBs have a MOQ of 50 @ $60
• Plates in aluminum or polycarbonate have a combined MOQ of 20 @ $50 (estimated)
• Housing doesn't have a MOQ and will cost $201

So the estimated prices are pretty much on point.  It also looks like we will almost certainly be able to offer PCB-only options for those who want to design their own plate.

GON also mentioned that if there's enough demand he can prep the boards for the Bluetooth module he's offering.  The module can be added at any time regardless but without the prep there will have to be more soldering later on.  I don't think this is something we need to consider until the GB phase (if we ever get there).

Finally, I asked about MX/Alps hybrid PCBs but GON stated he will not produce them due to design and aesthetic compromises.  I respect his decisions as a designer and will not push him further on this point even though I realize it would make reaching MOQ easier.

[nubbinator]

Are the plates anodized or do prices go down as number increases?  I'm asking since Imsto anodized plates were $25 + shipping.  $45 just seems high if they're bare plates without any price breaks.  I get the economies of scale thing, but it seems high.  If there are no price breaks, if someone releases a file, I'm sure I could get a few made by my cousin for much cheaper.

Also, stupid question, his PCB is Poker/Pure case compatible, right?

[geniekid]

His plates are milled - you can see some of the results here.  It's a bit of overkill IMHO, but they are extremely nice.  I assume the aluminum ones will be anodized but I am waiting to hear back from him on that (it's 2:30AM over in Korea atm so it might be awhile).

Right now I'm actually more worried that there's not enough interest for a single layout, but I will update the form to reflect that PCB+plate may be cheaper.

I was able to find this which strongly suggests that an Alps NerD60 would be compatible with Poker/Pure cases.  If we get enough interest to move into GB I will make sure it is so.

[geniekid]

Just got this from GON:

Just anodizing does not increase the cost so high.
Color choice will be available for about 5 colors(the most popular colors they choose)
My plate is not cheap laser cut ones.
http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/163-thickbox_default/universal-frameplate-for-60.jpg

If they don't want high quality but cheap laser-cut, another member can make the plates.


The second one is, Housing does have MOQ because I have to spend my time and money on designing and sampling the housing.
But MOQ is not high because I can adapt much from existing NerD 60 housing. So I think the MOQ of 5 will be enough.


And for TKL... To make a plate for a specific housing, I need the dimension of the housing inside for fitting the plate.
But the design owner might not give it because it's also his own property. And I do agree with it.

But I can make a NS NerD TKL for ALPs. MOQ will be the same = 5+


Pricing I gave you is not a new pricing but from my website. I sell the items at those price.
MOQ is just for "time and effort for developing new items."


They can choose cheap items from China, or can choose high quality items from Korea. It's up to their decision.

[dante]

Interest check form is here.

Some things to note:

• Estimated prices come via Gon's website for the corresponding MX versions.
• Responses are public.
• User name is not required.

Hopefully when Dante sees this we can update the OP

Added to OP; but it is requesting user to login to Gmail account.

[nubbinator]

I guess that makes sense, but I wouldn't bash the laser or waterjet cut as much lower quality.  The price just seemed high based on other plates I've seen.

If someone designs a plate, I can look into milled, waterjet, or laser cutting with my cousin and see if there might be a cheaper plate option for those that want one.

[geniekid]

Interest check form is here.

Some things to note:

• Estimated prices come via Gon's website for the corresponding MX versions.
• Responses are public.
• User name is not required.

Hopefully when Dante sees this we can update the OP

Added to OP; but it is requesting user to login to Gmail account.

Should be fixed.  I had to disable "Only allow one response per user".  So...nobody abuse the system I guess

[pasph]

The supported layouts will be the same as NS NerD TKL for MX (ISO included)?

[kitsun8]

There will be so many GONs soon )

[Tiramisuu]

I'm definitely in for 1 pcb+plate.. likely 2, as if I do one in pink I can be forgiven by she that must be obeyed.

[Elrick]

There will be so many GONs soon )

VERY interested in buying 2 - TKL's if it has GON involved.  PLUS getting Matias switches would be the ultimate, not that I hate Cherry's anymore, just would like some variety.

[geniekid]

I asked GON if we can expect the PCB to be basically the same as the MX version.  That should answer our questions about ISO compatibility and case compatibility.

[dante]

There will be so many GONs soon )

VERY interested in buying 2 - TKL's if it has GON involved.  PLUS getting Matias switches would be the ultimate, not that I hate Cherry's anymore, just would like some variety.

I'm down for 2 TKL's as well.

[Hak Foo]

I'd honestly be more interested if it were full-size or 110 percent.  This feels like it's sort of "in the middle" between the Matias 60% project and the GH122.

[dante]

I'd honestly be more interested if it were full-size or 110 percent.  This feels like it's sort of "in the middle" between the Matias 60% project and the GH122.

What do you think about a replacement fullsize aluminum case for the 104 Matias?

[geniekid]

GON says the the Alps NerD PCB would have the same dimensions and layout as its MX counterpart.

So yes on ISO, split backspace/shift, and compatibility with Poker/Pure cases (assuming you have a compatible plate of course).

[pasph]

Ok give me 2 of those

[CommonCurt]

GON says the the Alps NerD PCB would have the same dimensions and layout as its MX counterpart.

So yes on ISO, split backspace/shift, and compatibility with Poker/Pure cases (assuming you have a compatible plate of course).

Would GON consider having some compatible plates made?

[geniekid]

Would GON consider having some compatible plates made?

Yes, although I'm curious what he plans to do about stabilizer locations.

That reminds me that Matias is going to start selling key caps soon and there's also another IC running for Alps key caps.  It might be wise for us to wait a bit and see what actually becomes available.  I hate the idea of running a GB for keyboard parts that depend on products that haven't materialized.  There will be significantly more interest if there's an actual source of caps and stabilizers so people won't have to harvest old boards for parts.

Thoughts?

[CommonCurt]

Would GON consider having some compatible plates made?

Yes, although I'm curious what he plans to do about stabilizer locations.

That reminds me that Matias is going to start selling key caps soon and there's also another IC running for Alps key caps.  It might be wise for us to wait a bit and see what actually becomes available.  I hate the idea of running a GB for keyboard parts that depend on products that haven't materialized.  There will be significantly more interest if there's an actual source of caps and stabilizers so people won't have to harvest old boards for parts.

Thoughts?

Perhaps we could get the stabilizers & inserts from Matias.   

I know they will able to sell keycaps in the future also, but I would want to wait to see what they look like. Plus I would really want more cap color choices besides black & white.

[scubaste]

I'm interested in 60% or TKL.

[dante]

Would GON consider having some compatible plates made?

Yes, although I'm curious what he plans to do about stabilizer locations.

That reminds me that Matias is going to start selling key caps soon and there's also another IC running for Alps key caps.  It might be wise for us to wait a bit and see what actually becomes available.  I hate the idea of running a GB for keyboard parts that depend on products that haven't materialized.  There will be significantly more interest if there's an actual source of caps and stabilizers so people won't have to harvest old boards for parts.

Thoughts?

Probably a very good idea.  Still nice to generate a IC to see if maybe there are enough buyers for both 60% and TKL.

It will be especially interesting to see what other custom Korean Alps boards might become available.  Hopefully some Korean members can forward Matias contact info onto them to open the flood gates.

[Matias]

Would GON consider having some compatible plates made?

Yes, although I'm curious what he plans to do about stabilizer locations.

That reminds me that Matias is going to start selling key caps soon and there's also another IC running for Alps key caps.  It might be wise for us to wait a bit and see what actually becomes available.  I hate the idea of running a GB for keyboard parts that depend on products that haven't materialized.  There will be significantly more interest if there's an actual source of caps and stabilizers so people won't have to harvest old boards for parts.

Thoughts?

Perhaps we could get the stabilizers & inserts from Matias.   

I know they will able to sell keycaps in the future also, but I would want to wait to see what they look like. Plus I would really want more cap color choices besides black & white.

We're starting with keycaps and then will make stabs + associated parts available.  SP uses Cherry stabs for their ALPS caps, so something like this allows support for both...

      http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63349.msg1486145#msg1486145

[korrelate]

This is good news! ^^^^

The legends on matias keyboards are gorgeous. I'd love to have a set of these doubleshot in WoB for an alps build i have coming up.


K

[geniekid]

Still nice to generate a IC to see if maybe there are enough buyers for both 60% and TKL.

It will be especially interesting to see what other custom Korean Alps boards might become available.  Hopefully some Korean members can forward Matias contact info onto them to open the flood gates.

Agreed.  GON has asked to keep the IC going even if we're delaying an actual GB so we can still gather data on what everyone wants even if we can't provide it right at the moment.  So fill out that IC form in the OP if you haven't yet!

We're starting with keycaps and then will make stabs + associated parts available.  SP uses Cherry stabs for their ALPS caps, so something like this allows support for both...

      http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63349.msg1486145#msg1486145

Good to hear!  If we're going to make a board it should be designed to work with Matias parts at the very least since these are the parts that will be most available to the non-harvester.  Which reminds me - GON has mentioned he lacks a design guide and he doesn't feel that measuring reference parts with calipers would be accurate enough.  Matias, I think at some point we're going to need reference drawings/dimensions to know where to put the stabilizer holes.  Would you be willing to share this information? 

[GON]

Still nice to generate a IC to see if maybe there are enough buyers for both 60% and TKL.

It will be especially interesting to see what other custom Korean Alps boards might become available.  Hopefully some Korean members can forward Matias contact info onto them to open the flood gates.

Agreed.  GON has asked to keep the IC going even if we're delaying an actual GB so we can still gather data on what everyone wants even if we can't provide it right at the moment.  So fill out that IC form in the OP if you haven't yet!

We're starting with keycaps and then will make stabs + associated parts available.  SP uses Cherry stabs for their ALPS caps, so something like this allows support for both...

      http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63349.msg1486145#msg1486145

Good to hear!  If we're going to make a board it should be designed to work with Matias parts at the very least since these are the parts that will be most available to the non-harvester.  Which reminds me - GON has mentioned he lacks a design guide and he doesn't feel that measuring reference parts with calipers would be accurate enough.  Matias, I think at some point we're going to need reference drawings/dimensions to know where to put the stabilizer holes.  Would you be willing to share this information? 

If SP or Tai Hao(Tai Hao would be better for pricing) makes ALPS caps /w cross hole stabilizers(CHERRY type), I would design my board for it.
I prefer CHERRY PCB mount Stabilizers. Of course this PCB can fit ALPS original(like costar) stabilizers /w proper plate.

I think it would be great I can colaborated GB with someone who will be in charge of Keycaps from SP, so that I can concentrate on the PCB and the Plate. If we GB in this way, I think we can reduce time dramatically.
As you see in NerD GH60 Housing GB(Later changed into NerD 60 due to delay of GH60 PCB release), NerD 60 Black PCBs GB that I ran, I don't like taking too much delay. I like fast process, only if the fund(payments) is raised fast enough.

[Matias]

If SP or Tai Hao(Tai Hao would be better for pricing) makes ALPS caps /w cross hole stabilizers(CHERRY type), I would design my board for it.
I prefer CHERRY PCB mount Stabilizers. Of course this PCB can fit ALPS original(like costar) stabilizers /w proper plate.

You could do it this way, but it would only support SP keycaps for keys that require stabs (2u or wider caps).  If you're okay with that, then you'll just need spacebars, which we can supply to you (since SP doesn't have tooling for ALPS spacebars).

PM me your address and I'll send you 4.5u, 5.5u, and 7u spacebar samples to test with your stabs. 

For modern layouts, 4.5u is probably best -- it leaves enough space for 1.5u modifiers and the spacebar nicely centred.

I think it would be great I can colaborated GB with someone who will be in charge of Keycaps from SP, so that I can concentrate on the PCB and the Plate. If we GB in this way, I think we can reduce time dramatically.
As you see in NerD GH60 Housing GB(Later changed into NerD 60 due to delay of GH60 PCB release), NerD 60 Black PCBs GB that I ran, I don't like taking too much delay. I like fast process, only if the fund(payments) is raised fast enough.

I've posted your request in the ALPS DCS IC started by Badwrench...


            http://geekhack.org/?topic=62274.msg1491070#msg1491070


Stab mount details for SP caps are shown in the IC post...


            http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62274.msg1453381#msg1453381

[geniekid]

Matias, would your space bars have the MX-style cross holes?

Also, thanks!  Maybe we can pull this off after all

[Matias]

Matias, would your space bars have the MX-style cross holes?

The ABS ones are MX-style. 

The PBT ones are ALPS style.

Also, thanks!  Maybe we can pull this off after all

Fingers crossed...  :-)

[GON]

If SP or Tai Hao(Tai Hao would be better for pricing) makes ALPS caps /w cross hole stabilizers(CHERRY type), I would design my board for it.
I prefer CHERRY PCB mount Stabilizers. Of course this PCB can fit ALPS original(like costar) stabilizers /w proper plate.

You could do it this way, but it would only support SP keycaps for keys that require stabs (2u or wider caps).  If you're okay with that, then you'll just need spacebars, which we can supply to you (since SP doesn't have tooling for ALPS spacebars).

PM me your address and I'll send you 4.5u, 5.5u, and 7u spacebar samples to test with your stabs. 

For modern layouts, 4.5u is probably best -- it leaves enough space for 1.5u modifiers and the spacebar nicely centred.



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)



(Attachment Link)

I think it would be great I can colaborated GB with someone who will be in charge of Keycaps from SP, so that I can concentrate on the PCB and the Plate. If we GB in this way, I think we can reduce time dramatically.
As you see in NerD GH60 Housing GB(Later changed into NerD 60 due to delay of GH60 PCB release), NerD 60 Black PCBs GB that I ran, I don't like taking too much delay. I like fast process, only if the fund(payments) is raised fast enough.

I've posted your request in the ALPS DCS IC started by Badwrench...


            http://geekhack.org/?topic=62274.msg1491070#msg1491070


Stab mount details for SP caps are shown in the IC post...


            http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62274.msg1453381#msg1453381

If I make NerD 60 ALPS, the layouts will be the same as NerD 60 MX.
So 6x / 6.25x / 7.00x spacebars will only be adopted.

Layouts should pursue compatibility as much as possible.

PCB mount MX Stabilizers will be supported by the PCB. And ALPS types will be supported by the plate/frame.
And I'm gonna design the Plate /w 2T materials by CNC-machining.

[kitsun8]

I'd really want this be tenkeyless since I already have two 60%s coming in

[pasph]

I'd really want this be tenkeyless since I already have two 60%s coming in

+1

[nubbinator]

I'd really want this be tenkeyless since I already have two 60%s coming in

+1

-3

[Matias]

If I make NerD 60 ALPS, the layouts will be the same as NerD 60 MX.
So 6x / 6.25x / 7.00x spacebars will only be adopted.

Layouts should pursue compatibility as much as possible.

Yes, I agree, sticking to the standards is best whenever possible.

Currently, only 7x spacebars are available for ALPS.  Nobody has tooling for 6x / 6.25x ALPS spacebars.

PCB mount MX Stabilizers will be supported by the PCB. And ALPS types will be supported by the plate/frame.
And I'm gonna design the Plate /w 2T materials by CNC-machining.

Sounds good.

Also, Badwrench has agreed to help you...

This is all wonderful news.  With this new possiblity, lets get a few more votes on the colors to get a difinitve first color choice and go from there.  I will contact SP about getting samples for GON on monday (or I can send the keys from my chicony which has the correct spacing for cherry/costar stabs)

[Tiramisuu]

I'm kind of hoping this one is delayed long enough to get the bluetooth integration and I can build around the white board then swap.   I should have just bought a hhkb  )

[geniekid]

Responses so far.  The IC is in the first post!

We're halfway to MOQ with TKL and not too far behind with 60%.  Obviously interest is not the same as actual ordering but if we get closer to 50 we can probably pick a single format for this round.  I'm confident if we focus on one format for the GB with an OP that has pictures/prices/features/timelines we can get this thing off the ground, especially with GON's reputation for delivering the goods in a timely manner

[CommonCurt]

If I make NerD 60 ALPS, the layouts will be the same as NerD 60 MX.
So 6x / 6.25x / 7.00x spacebars will only be adopted.

Layouts should pursue compatibility as much as possible.

Yes, I agree, sticking to the standards is best whenever possible.

Currently, only 7x spacebars are available for ALPS.  Nobody has tooling for 6x / 6.25x ALPS spacebars.

From the looks of it the KBParadise V60 MTS will be using 6.25 spacebars.  I wonder where they are getting theirs from?

[Matias]

If I make NerD 60 ALPS, the layouts will be the same as NerD 60 MX.
So 6x / 6.25x / 7.00x spacebars will only be adopted.

Layouts should pursue compatibility as much as possible.

Yes, I agree, sticking to the standards is best whenever possible.

Currently, only 7x spacebars are available for ALPS.  Nobody has tooling for 6x / 6.25x ALPS spacebars.

From the looks of it the KBParadise V60 MTS will be using 6.25 spacebars.  I wonder where they are getting theirs from?

Good question...

We just checked with the vendor and the said they do now have tooling for 6.25 ALPS spacebar -- so we can get it.

[geniekid]

Hurray!  Nice catch CommonCurt.

[dante]

Responses so far.  The IC is in the first post!

I'm confident if we focus on one format for the GB with an OP that has pictures/prices/features/timelines we can get this thing off the ground, especially with GON's reputation for delivering the goods in a timely manner

I guess right now it's waiting time for the IC to hit 50 and GON to get a hold of some caps.

I agree one format will probably work best.  My only concern with going with 60% is it may cannibalize some KBP V60MTS/Matias 60% sales - which would be very unfortunate.  I'm not one to tell other people what they should have but it might be beneficial to do Tenkeyless this time around.  KBP has the V60MTS sales under a microscope and I'd hate for this to cannibalize sales and send a mixed message.

That being said if 60% wins, well there you have it.

btw

GON: I notice you have GB on your webpage - once a GB goes live should people be directed to a page on your site to place orders?

[GON]

Responses so far.  The IC is in the first post!

I'm confident if we focus on one format for the GB with an OP that has pictures/prices/features/timelines we can get this thing off the ground, especially with GON's reputation for delivering the goods in a timely manner

I guess right now it's waiting time for the IC to hit 50 and GON to get a hold of some caps.

I agree one format will probably work best.  My only concern with going with 60% is it may cannibalize some KBP V60MTS/Matias 60% sales - which would be very unfortunate.  I'm not one to tell other people what they should have but it might be beneficial to do Tenkeyless this time around.  KBP has the V60MTS sales under a microscope and I'd hate for this to cannibalize sales and send a mixed message.

That being said if 60% wins, well there you have it.

btw

GON: I notice you have GB on your webpage - once a GB goes live should people be directed to a page on your site to place orders?

Yes, people can directly place an order at my website.
They can combine other items to their shipment too.

This is the best way for me not to make a mistake concerning the orders.

If this GB is live, I will add the GB product at GB section.

[geniekid]

I agree one format will probably work best.  My only concern with going with 60% is it may cannibalize some KBP V60MTS/Matias 60% sales

I share your reticence for cannibalizing on Matias' upcoming 60% GB especially since he started it at the behest of this community.  That said, we might be able to skip any ethical dilemma for this round as the responses so far are leaning in favor of TKL.

[geniekid]

Yes, people can directly place an order at my website.
They can combine other items to their shipment too.

This is the best way for me not to make a mistake concerning the orders.

If this GB is live, I will add the GB product at GB section.

Sounds good!  I think we need a little bit more interest before we start the GB.  I'd rather have a longer IC and a GB that moves quickly than a GB that stays open for too long because of inadequate interest.

Maybe when we hit 40 *potential* orders we can request a link from GON and open that GB thread?  What do you guys think?

[dante]

Maybe over 40 and GON has had a chance to look at the keycaps / stabs.

[nubbinator]

I agree one format will probably work best.  My only concern with going with 60% is it may cannibalize some KBP V60MTS/Matias 60% sales

I share your reticence for cannibalizing on Matias' upcoming 60% GB especially since he started it at the behest of this community.  That said, we might be able to skip any ethical dilemma for this round as the responses so far are leaning in favor of TKL.

There's no ethical quandary with someone else doing a 60%.  It's business and business means competition.  In any case, I know I have no interest in the Matthias 60% due to the layout and caps.  I also wouldn't say it was at the behest of the community when he saw an opportunity to capitalize on.

Also, Matthias will make money off switches people buy for it and potentially caps as well.

Lastly on this matter, since it's a Gon, this is a Korean custom, something that doesn't typically compete with cheaper options like the Matthias and V60MTS.  If anything, it's competing with Duck and his keyboards.

Don't take this as me being ungrateful or bashing Matthias, just providing a counterpoint to what's being said.

Lastly, I know I'm just one voice, but I've been pushing for a custom Alps 60% PCB well before anyone started making one and before there were talks of one.    I even tried to see if I could mod the GH60 files to be Alps compatible (and failed). I love Alps, but I wouldn't order anything if it was TKL, but plan on several as 60%.

In other words, why not both?

[Matias]

I agree one format will probably work best.  My only concern with going with 60% is it may cannibalize some KBP V60MTS/Matias 60% sales

I share your reticence for cannibalizing on Matias' upcoming 60% GB especially since he started it at the behest of this community.  That said, we might be able to skip any ethical dilemma for this round as the responses so far are leaning in favor of TKL.

Thanks, I appreciate the consideration -- as I'm sure does KBP.  :-)

Ethics aside, there are gaps in the ecosystem, so filling those gaps makes a lot more sense than doing another one of something that already exists.

There is no proper TKL out there with ALPS switches.  That means no competition for this GB if it's a TKL -- making it MUCH easier for it to achieve its MOQ.

If GON wants to do a 60, that's up to him, but doing a TKL would be a smarter business decision.

[geniekid]

In other words, why not both?

If we decide on TKL for this round, I fully intend to run an IC for 60% in the future (if someone else does not).  I do think they should be run separately to have any hope of reaching MOQ.

If GON wants to do a 60, that's up to him, but doing a TKL would be a smarter business decision.

Based on the MOQ information he gave me earlier I don't think he's opposed to doing TKL.  Obviously I don't speak for him, but based on reading various IC/GB threads and talking to him it sounds like if you can get 50 orders together he'll design and make it, whatever it is

[Tiramisuu]

I am very interested in Matias switches but the layout
and programmability don't meet my use cases.   Gon custom has the potential to satisfy them.   There is no split of interests from my perspective.   It is a non programmable  with cursor keys vs a custom multi layered minimal 60‰.  Different buyers altogether.

[nubbinator]

Matias, don't you make several TKL boards?  They just have non-standard layouts.

I still say why noy both.  And geniekid, I really doubt running them concurrently would cause any significant cannibalization.

I am very interested in Matias switches but the layout
and programmability don't meet my use cases.   Gon custom has the potential to satisfy them.   There is no split of interests from my perspective.   It is a non programmable  with cursor keys vs a custom multi layered minimal 60‰.  Different buyers altogether.

Exactly this.  Don't forget potential for multiple layouts too.

[kitsun8]

In other words, why not both?

If we decide on TKL for this round, I fully intend to run an IC for 60% in the future (if someone else does not).  I do think they should be run separately to have any hope of reaching MOQ.

If GON wants to do a 60, that's up to him, but doing a TKL would be a smarter business decision.

Based on the MOQ information he gave me earlier I don't think he's opposed to doing TKL.  Obviously I don't speak for him, but based on reading various IC/GB threads and talking to him it sounds like if you can get 50 orders together he'll design and make it, whatever it is

I second this. Right now because of funds and the fact that I already have 2 60%s coming I can really only afford one more keyboard and would prefer it to be TKL. That said, in the future I will be looking to get another 60% so I'm all up for future IC's.

[geniekid]

On the subject of market overlap between GON 60 and Matias 60, I think this is an argument that we could draw out but I'd like to stay focused on the prize.  Let's stick with first-to-reach-40 wins for this round and focus on that layout.  If it's 60% then it's 60%. 

On the subject of running a 60% and TKL GB concurrently, I think it's worth asserting that there are enough people interested in both (but will only buy one) that two concurrent GBs will cause MOQ issues.  This is based on the responses so far.  If we remove non-60/TKL formats from consideration, I count

• 8 people who are only interested in 60%
• 10 people who are only interested in TKL
• 9 people who are interested in both

So almost a third of the people expressing interest would be divided.  It's possible that a well advertised GB would draw in enough numbers for both (50 orders for each), but I do not believe that is the case.  Start advertising this IC - if we get 100 votes in a way that 50 of each is plausible, hell, let's do both.

[dante]

OK!

I had a crazy idea today - STAY WITH ME - what if the PCB had MX for the stabilized keys and Alps for everything else?  So only the 'Shifts', 'Enter', and 'BackSpace' were MX only?  Would that put you off thinking 'whats the point' - just thought it might be a bit easier for keycap customization.  I know SP/TaoHao may be down the road but I'm sort of thinking Plan-B lets gets this DONE.

I know it sounds crazy - but think about it for a moment...

[Tiramisuu]

OK!

I had a crazy idea today - STAY WITH ME - what if the PCB had MX for the stabilized keys and Alps for everything else?  So only the 'Shifts', 'Enter', and 'BackSpace' were MX only?  Would that put you off thinking 'whats the point' - just thought it might be a bit easier for keycap customization.  I know SP/TaoHao may be down the road but I'm sort of thinking Plan-B lets gets this DONE.

I know it sounds crazy - but think about it for a moment...

Thought about it.    Nope

[pasph]

No no

[CPTBadAss]

OK!

I had a crazy idea today - STAY WITH ME - what if the PCB had MX for the stabilized keys and Alps for everything else?  So only the 'Shifts', 'Enter', and 'BackSpace' were MX only?  Would that put you off thinking 'whats the point' - just thought it might be a bit easier for keycap customization.  I know SP/TaoHao may be down the road but I'm sort of thinking Plan-B lets gets this DONE.

I know it sounds crazy - but think about it for a moment...

MX and Alps on the same board just so we can have nice keycaps? Hell no. I'd rather my caps forever be beige than to mix and match switches.

[dante]

okok -

[CommonCurt]

OK!

I had a crazy idea today - STAY WITH ME - what if the PCB had MX for the stabilized keys and Alps for everything else?  So only the 'Shifts', 'Enter', and 'BackSpace' were MX only?  Would that put you off thinking 'whats the point' - just thought it might be a bit easier for keycap customization.  I know SP/TaoHao may be down the road but I'm sort of thinking Plan-B lets gets this DONE.

I know it sounds crazy - but think about it for a moment...

I'd rather my caps forever be beige than to mix and match switches.

I have to agree.

[kitsun8]

OK!

I had a crazy idea today - STAY WITH ME - what if the PCB had MX for the stabilized keys and Alps for everything else?  So only the 'Shifts', 'Enter', and 'BackSpace' were MX only?  Would that put you off thinking 'whats the point' - just thought it might be a bit easier for keycap customization.  I know SP/TaoHao may be down the road but I'm sort of thinking Plan-B lets gets this DONE.

I know it sounds crazy - but think about it for a moment...

I'd rather my caps forever be beige than to mix and match switches.

I have to agree.

+1 but I would be willing to make a compromise for the escape key ;p

[geniekid]

Someone asked about the programmability of the firmware.  My understanding is that the PCB will be pretty much your normal NerD PCB with modified switch hole placement, which means it will use GON's Nerdy GUI for programming which can be downloaded here and does not require an internet connection (after the initial download).

[deci]

On the subject of market overlap between GON 60 and Matias 60, I think this is an argument that we could draw out but I'd like to stay focused on the prize.  Let's stick with first-to-reach-40 wins for this round and focus on that layout.  If it's 60% then it's 60%. 

On the subject of running a 60% and TKL GB concurrently, I think it's worth asserting that there are enough people interested in both (but will only buy one) that two concurrent GBs will cause MOQ issues.  This is based on the responses so far.  If we remove non-60/TKL formats from consideration, I count

• 8 people who are only interested in 60%
• 10 people who are only interested in TKL
• 9 people who are interested in both

So almost a third of the people expressing interest would be divided.  It's possible that a well advertised GB would draw in enough numbers for both (50 orders for each), but I do not believe that is the case.  Start advertising this IC - if we get 100 votes in a way that 50 of each is plausible, hell, let's do both.

Speaking of market overlap on 60% Matias... Massdrop Infinity just entered the fray.
It's a fully customizable alps or mx board with a modified HHKB layout in a GON skinny style case.
Pretty cheap without keycaps.

[geniekid]

It's good that Matias and the Infinity are bringing Alps to more people.  I think even if you're not really into either one of those options, having more people exposed to Alps will ultimately allow for more successful GBs based around Alps in the future.  The Infinity will hopefully drive up demand for compatible key sets (such as Badwrench's GB) and that will in turn (hopefully) drive up demand for GON Alps

The hardest part is the waiting!

[Matias]

It's good that Matias and the Infinity are bringing Alps to more people.  I think even if you're not really into either one of those options, having more people exposed to Alps will ultimately allow for more successful GBs based around Alps in the future.  The Infinity will hopefully drive up demand for compatible key sets (such as Badwrench's GB) and that will in turn (hopefully) drive up demand for GON Alps

The hardest part is the waiting!

Agreed.  :-)

[geniekid]

If you're following this thread you're likely already following the Delta Blues Alps keyset as well.  In the slim chance that you are not, SP now has a live interest check for an Alps keyset that would be compatible with a future GON Alps PCB/keyboard (Delta Blues will have MX stabilizers and GON has stated he would design the PCB to support MX PCB stabilizers).  Vote for it here!

[yasuo]

sym sgg 60% alps w/ mrinterface adapter would be great
may i will buy pcb only

[rand77]

I'd be interested in an Alps PCB.

[dante]

This is on hold.  I'm sending a set of Alps keycaps and stabilizers to GON once Matias releases the Kraken [PBT keycaps].