Author Topic: thingy  (Read 16392 times)

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Offline chimera15

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thingy
« on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 02:34:20 »
Pretty pricey, but looks like it'd be AT functional, and blue alps.  Interesting to know it exists if nothing else.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-COMPUTERLAND-IBM-KEYBOARD-BLUE-SLIDER-SN-972-/290528313921?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43a4d64241
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:40:49 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 09:25:52 »
Cause that's the type of layout it is.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

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  • Posts: 1441
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 13:44:07 »
Shouldn't you want them more since you know they're higher quality and more solid?
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline kriminal

  • Posts: 424
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 20:42:59 »
meh looks exactly like the leading edge i destroyed for its switches, same layout, housing different name...
Geekhacked Filco FKBN87M/EB modified with Brown, black and blue cherries, doubleshot keycaps
Deck KBA-BL82 with Black cherries
Cherry G84-4100LCMDK-0 Cherry ML switches
Cherry G80-8200hpdus-2 Brown cherries
IBM Lexmark 51G8572 Model M Keyboard
Geekhacked Siig Minitouch KB1948
IBM Model M Mini 1397681

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 21:35:27 »
Quote from: kriminal;295180
meh looks exactly like the leading edge i destroyed for its switches, same layout, housing different name...

Yeah, cept the leading edge board is xt only.  The thing that's unique about this is that it's a working board in the f format.


Pretty much the only model f layouts that work with modern systems are a few zenith models which have crap switches in them, an ultra rare northgate, the at f, and this one.  

It's really rare to find this format in a working board, which is why it's a model f type.  That's it's selling point.  


Before I became familiar with the minitouch and a few other rare mini mechanicals I thought this was about as compact mechanicals got, so it is pretty rare as far as this goes and even working boards in this format are rare.

It's an exact clone to an f, cept it uses better switches imo.  Blues are my favorite switch and feel 100 times better than buckling springs to me.


It's not just some at/xt alps board in a standard format.  It's much more compact.  If you don't want to call it a model f type, you should tell me what the name of this format is.  Semi compact, or side function key style maybe?
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 February 2011, 22:17:52 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 14 February 2011, 22:53:52 »
AT layout.

Or 84-key AT layout, but the 84-key is redundant since the 101/102-key is the enhanced AT layout (and besides, for those you'd probably just say ANSI or ISO, depending).

Model F is a type of switch.

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 03:50:38 »
Quote from: Soarer;295213
AT layout.

Or 84-key AT layout, but the 84-key is redundant since the 101/102-key is the enhanced AT layout (and besides, for those you'd probably just say ANSI or ISO, depending).

Model F is a type of switch.

Almost no one knows the difference between at and enhanced at anymore.  The number of keys a board has isn't descriptive of it's layout.  F type is much more clear.  83 or 84 AT also describes minitouch's, and full minis.

Also anyone looking for an F AT may find this which they may prefer like I would.  Given that F AT's go commonly for around this price,  blue alps boards sell for $40-50 just for their switches on xt boards, I don't think It's overpriced at all.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 February 2011, 04:01:32 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Lenny_Nero

  • Posts: 58
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 05:32:28 »
Looks like the smaller version of my Panasonic business boards.
IIRC the 286 versions, but I dont think they are switchable only my 500's are.
Could be a good reason to go and find them to check, but they dont have the knobby bits on the end like the 'F' (and that one does) does.

No I'm wrong, I checked my sig as this is the only other one I have seen...
http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/image/bp286.htm
Was going to use it for the switch swap into my Zero, because I was sure it was XT only ?

I dont think that is such a bad price for that board, you sure have the good crop of boards over there.
Filco Zero, Viglen DFK 2020UKF104, DTK SPK-102a, Panasonic Biz 500
Ducky 1087 Chicony KB-5191, G80-1856HQMGB Cherry G80-1000HFD and others
 G80-11908HRMIT, Tipro MID-KM128a, Access AKEOXPB312/2 (20x7), Access AKEOCTI635/1(15x6)

Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 05:43:21 »
Quote from: chimera15;295290
Almost no one knows the difference between at and enhanced at anymore.  The number of keys a board has isn't descriptive of it's layout.  F type is much more clear.  83 or 84 AT also describes minitouch's, and full minis.

Also anyone looking for an F AT may find this which they may prefer like I would.  Given that F AT's go commonly for around this price,  blue alps boards sell for $40-50 just for their switches on xt boards, I don't think It's overpriced at all.


Noone needs to know the difference between AT and enhanced AT any more. They usually call the latter regular / full size / ANSI / ISO.

I disagree that F type is clearer. If anything, most people would think of the XT layout then. I have a Model F with 122 keys on the way!

The only thing AT about a minitouch is the connector and signalling, which has nothing to do with the layout. WTF are full minis? Do you mean that which everyone else on the planet calls either tenkeyless or space saver (sic)?

I'm sure people would've known what you meant if you'd described this board as: 'AT layout with blue Alps'.

I would quite like an F-type...


Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 13:35:50 »
Quote from: Soarer;295322
Noone needs to know the difference between AT and enhanced AT any more. They usually call the latter regular / full size / ANSI / ISO.

I disagree that F type is clearer. If anything, most people would think of the XT layout then. I have a Model F with 122 keys on the way!

The only thing AT about a minitouch is the connector and signalling, which has nothing to do with the layout. WTF are full minis? Do you mean that which everyone else on the planet calls either tenkeyless or space saver (sic)?

I'm sure people would've known what you meant if you'd described this board as: 'AT layout with blue Alps'.

I would quite like an F-type...

Show Image

The XT F type is exactly the same as the AT F type except for the enter key and a few other keys, 1 extra key, and a separated numpad, so they're both f types.  The layout is almost exactly the same.    That one that was linked to with an extended middle set of keys is an extended f type in my mind.  It's the best way to describe it in a title, because there are other formats for AT 84 key keyboards these days.

A full mini is a fully compact board with no extra set of keys other than the main keyset on the right, like the mck-84, or minitouch.   A tenkeyless or spacesaver usually just has the numpad or middle arrow key set cut off, which is not a full mini.

Boards like the hhkb I would consider a super compact, or just hhkb type.

Think of it like ship types.  It's the first ship of that configuration that the class is named for.  It should be the same with keyboards or at least best known. That's the clearest way to do it when describing the layout to other people because it invokes an image.  

In order of progression.

 The M type is the standard.  
The side function keyed board is an F type.
 A tenkeyless is like the Filco/Majestouch Tenkeyless.
 The Mini is the MINItouch type.
 The super mini is the hhkb type.
Ultraminis would be anything under that with either shrunken keys like thumb boards, or one handed worn/ non standard key layouts, for instance a chordite might also fall into this category, although that might even be another one.

All keyboards that work with modern machines are AT type, so the minitouch and ortek boards are also 84 key AT boards.  Neither of those terms are descriptive of the layout.  AT is only a description of the technology and interface the board uses(bidirectional as opposed to unidirectional in xt) and means "Advanced Technology", nothing else.

The terms you're trying to impose on them only had significance when there there only those two types of AT boards in existence.  These days there are a lot of other formats, and F type is the easiest way to describe the format, unless you can come up with a better one, which imo you really haven't.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 February 2011, 14:34:18 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline quadibloc

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 13:49:51 »
Quote from: kishy;295157
I'd call it what it is - an 84-key AT/XT switchable keyboard.
You have a point. After all, the term Model F, as it's used here, does refer to the switch type - capacitative buckling spring - not the layout, since there are XT model Fs and 122-key model Fs.

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 14:37:21 »
Quote from: quadibloc;295612
You have a point. After all, the term Model F, as it's used here, does refer to the switch type - capacitative buckling spring - not the layout, since there are XT model Fs and 122-key model Fs.

There are xt f's, 122 key f's, and the f does refer to the model having function keys on the left side of the main keys.  The 122 key model f is a perfect example of that.  The AT F type still uses buckling springs, and I believe the same function type.  I know it at least has a pcb and doesn't use membrane like the M.  

Are you saying you think the difference between the Model M, and the F is not the layout, and the reason for the distinction, is that the Model M uses a membrane instead of capacitive?

You think they wouldn't still have kept calling it a model F if they had kept the same layout but switched the pcb out and put membranes instead?


http://lowendmac.com/thomas/09tt/ibm-model-f-keyboard.html

This person is describing an 84 at as a model F, and it still uses capacitive according to him.

Personally to the user I don't see how the difference in the pcb could make a slightest difference, certainly nothing compared to the complete shift of the layout.  The layout is the most important thing, not the switch type.  The difference between a capacitive F, and a membrane buckling spring M is very minimal, as is the difference between blue alps and buckling spring, compared to the layout, and the rarity of that early design.

If you're a person that loves the F layout, that is how you're going to describe this board.    Obviously the ones complaining care more about the switch than the layout which is where we have the problem.  Describing the switch has nothing to do with this board or the unique selling point however.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 February 2011, 14:54:20 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 14:38:54 »
Quote from: chimera15;295598
The XT F type is exactly the same as the AT F type except for the enter key and a few other keys, so they're both f types.  The layout is the same.    That one that was linked to with an extended middle set of keys is an extended f type in my mind.

A full mini is a fully compact board with no extra set of keys other than the main keyset on the right, like the mck-84, or minitouch.   A tenkeyless or spacesaver usually just has the numpad or middle arrow key set cut off, which is not a full mini.

Boards like the hhkb I would consider a super compact, or just hhkb type.

Think of it like ship types.  It's the first ship of that configuration that the class is named for.  It should be the same with keyboards or at least best known. That's the clearest way to do it when describing the layout to other people because it invokes an image.  

In order of progression.

 The M type is the standard.  
The side function keyed board is an F type.
 A tenkeyless is like the Filco/Majestouch Tenkeyless.
 The Mini is the MINItouch type.
 The super mini is the hhkb type.
Ultraminis would be anything under that with either shrunken keys like thumb boards, or one handed worn/ non standard key layouts, for instance a chordite might also fall into this category, although that might even be another one.

All keyboards that work with modern machines are AT type, so the minitouch and ortek boards are also 84 key AT boards.  Neither of those terms are descriptive of the layout.  AT is only a description of the technology and interface the board uses(bidirectional as opposed to unidirectional in xt) and means "Advanced Technology", nothing else.

The terms you're trying to impose on them only had significance when there there only those two types of AT boards in existence.  These days there are a lot of other formats, and F type is the easiest way to describe the format, unless you can come up with a better one, which imo you really haven't.


In your mind, that may be so.

I specifically said 'AT layout', not just AT, because that is what it is. I know what AT stands for, and it encompasses not just the technology and interface of the keyboard, but the whole IBM PC-AT computer system, which introduced the layout we've been debating. There is your ship.

Absolutely nobody (apart from you) has ever referred to a regular 101/102 key layout as a Model M type.

I don't need to come up with a better term, when one already exists.

Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 14:47:22 »
Quote from: ripster;295632
Switch type is irrelevant...


bless

Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 14:48:39 »
If we're going to discuss semantics, I'd call this a Model F AT clone with blue Alps.
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
[/SIZE]

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:07:25 »
Quote from: kishy;295644
Rounding the corner of 5000 posts, and look what I did. Brilliant!

"F type" doesn't even make any sense. It's a Model F, or a Model M, or something that is something else...sure, these keyboards pretty much defined industry standards, but that doesn't mean everything derived from them is named the same...

Finally some (bunch of) people agree with me when I argue semantics :D

Saying that they defined the industry then saying I can't use them as definitions is contradicting yourself.  I could have called it a zenith zb-150 type, or dc-2014 type or whatever as well, but not everyone knows what the heck that is.  I called it an f type because most people know what that board looks like.  No one knows what a COMPUTERLAND 972 is.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:16:57 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:33:33 »
I think this has turned into an "ALPS vs. Buckling Springs" argument.  I support kishy on this one... It is not an IBM made keyboard, therefore it shouldn't be classified as a "Model F type."
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:36:23 by Computer-Lab in Basement »
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:41:29 »
I have a better question, "who really gives a ****?"  Sure, it's not really a Model F, but noobs might be able to get a better idea of the layout.  

At the end of the day, I still have to go to work, I still have to take ****, and I still have to pay my bills no matter what the Hell this keyboard is called.


Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 15:47:45 »
Quote from: ripster;295632
I always think of Model M as normal keyboards.

Model F are the weird ones.

This one is weird hence Model F applies.

Switch type is irrelevant as illustrated below.
Show Image


Needs a better layout.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 16:06:03 »
Quote from: itlnstln;295665
I have a better question, "who really gives a ****?"  Sure, it's not really a Model F, but noobs might be able to get a better idea of the layout.  

At the end of the day, I still have to go to work, I still have to take ****, and I still have to pay my bills no matter what the Hell this keyboard is called.


Touchč...
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 15 February 2011, 16:20:42 »
Take the negative terminal of a AA or AAA battery to the screen of your iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch, it will work as a stylus.
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 04:59:07 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;295691
Take the negative terminal of a AA or AAA battery to the screen of your iPad/iPhone/iPod Touch, it will work as a stylus.

So will aluminum foil, but you have to remain in contact with the foil.  I was actually able to get the best precision for drawing this way because it was fairly easy to predict where the cursor would be and you could arrange the foil in such a way that the cursor would be visible, which it's not with standard capacitive styluss.

  You can buy capacitive stylus's though.  I use a pogo art one.   It's nice, they really figured something out, and you can use it and not have to remain in contact with the stylus, like you can use gloves, and it doesn't use a battery or anything.    It's got nothing to do with heat sensitivity.  http://hubpages.com/hub/Buy-An-iPad-Stylus-Online I have big fingers and hate capacitive screens, but the stylus makes it almost tolerable.  Still really imprecise though and doesn't compare anywhere near a wacom with pressure sensitivity.  Oqo wins my pocket over my itouch any day of the week just because of that, let alone the other limitations.

I bought a mad hatter hat with pockets sewn into it so I can wear my ipod and not have the headphone cord interfere while I'm working on lawnwork though.  It's much smaller and lighter than an oqo.  That's the only time I use my itouch these days.

There are also alternative keyboard layouts for the ipod touch, or at least other mobile devices like the blackberry, that use a layout like an old telephone dialing that I guess people have set most of their speed texting records with.  Not sure if it's out for a non jailbroken iphone.  There's also little keyboards you can turn your ipod/iphone into a blackberry.

http://www.appletap.com/2010/01/15/alternative-keyboards-for-the-iphone-and-ipod-touch/

http://www.mobilemechatronics.com/itwinge.html

And of course the newest 4.0 os allows bluetooth keyboards to be connected on gen 3 devices or later.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 05:25:08 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1441
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 05:32:56 »
Quote from: ripster;295700
Awesome.  Always on the lookout for party tricks and carrying a Model F around doesn't cut it.

What's odd is the hammer isn't conductive (at least according to my fluke).  



Another on an Android phone site.





http://www.instructables.com/id/Cheap-Ipod-Pogo-Stylus-not-aluminum-foil/

That looks awesome.  Electrically conductive clay.  Really cool.  Still have to touch the stylus though I guess, so not as good as a pogo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Iphone-4-Mini-Wireless-Bluetooth-Keyboard-Case-/180595649206?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item2a0c56eab6

untra tiny bluetooth board.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 05:43:15 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 06:35:48 »
Since when don't stylii work on iPhones?


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 06:41:58 »
Quote from: chimera15;295290
Almost no one knows the difference between at and enhanced at anymore.  The number of keys a board has isn't descriptive of it's layout.  F type is much more clear.


Model F layout like this, amirite?



Quote
There are xt f's, 122 key f's, and the f does refer to the model having function keys on the left side of the main keys. The 122 key model f is a perfect example of that. The AT F type still uses buckling springs, and I believe the same function type. I know it at least has a pcb and doesn't use membrane like the M.


So, if I pick a Model F at random, I can be guaranteed that it has function keys on the left hand side?



Ehh-err.

Also, plenty of Model Ms with left hand function keys - see here. There is no pattern in regards to the various layouts used on the Model M and Model F keyboards.

Quote
Personally to the user I don't see how the difference in the pcb could make a slightest difference, certainly nothing compared to the complete shift of the layout. The layout is the most important thing, not the switch type. The difference between a capacitive F, and a membrane buckling spring M is very minimal, as is the difference between blue alps and buckling spring, compared to the layout, and the rarity of that early design.

If you're a person that loves the F layout, that is how you're going to describe this board. Obviously the ones complaining care more about the switch than the layout which is where we have the problem. Describing the switch has nothing to do with this board or the unique selling point however.


Well, for one, the difference is quite substantial between the membrane and buckling spring implementations, which is why many will prefer one over the other (usually the F over the M). The Model M designation corresponded to their membrane buckling spring keyboards, and the F was the capacitive buckling spring implementation. If this wasn't the case (as you seem to claim) then how come IBM made Model F and Model M versions of the exact same keyboard that only differed by which implementation of the buckling spring they used?
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 07:25:37 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 07:32:50 »
Quote from: ch_123;296005
Model F layout like this, amirite?

Show Image




So, if I pick a Model F at random, I can be guaranteed that it has function keys on the left hand side?

Show Image


Ehh-err.

Also, plenty of Model Ms with left hand function keys - see here. There is no pattern in regards to the various layouts used on the Model M and Model F keyboards.



Well, for one, the difference is quite substantial between the membrane and buckling spring implementations, which is why many will prefer one over the other (usually the F over the M). The Model M designation corresponded to their membrane buckling spring keyboards, and the F was the capacitive buckling spring implementation. If this wasn't the case (as you seem to claim) then how come IBM made Model F and Model M versions of the exact same keyboard that only differed by which implementation of the buckling spring they used?


Oh that's interesting.  Well that's what I wondered if that's what you were saying the designation was based on, and why everyone was so mad.  However generally the layout is still the same.  That model F you show has no function keys at all, and would be on the left if they were there.  The 122 key terminal board is interesting in that it is both model m and f.  I have to wonder if those are specifications actually written on the board, or if that's an enthusiast term though.  Either way, the standard that everyone knows about is layout based, and my description as the board as a model F type is only to bring a keyboard to mind.  Are you saying that you picture that 122 terminal key F before you picture the standard xt at layout?  I think that's pretty odd if you do.  Show me a standard model F, non 122 key terminal board with model M stamped on it, or vice versa a model m layout type with F stamped on it and you may have won your argument.  I would be greatly surprised by that though.  Even if you managed to find one, it doesn't invalidate my definition of the Computerland board as a Model F type.

Technically based on layout only those 122 terminal boards are a combination of M's and F's having function keys on the side and top, so it doesn't surprise me to see them stamped either way.

 Others have agreed that the language model F clone is suitable, which is the same thing and how I intended the term, type, so my point of defining the board as such has proven justifiable one way or another.

I swear this is some real ocd geek going on right here. lol
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 07:50:56 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 08:10:20 »
There is clearly no persuading you!

This is an F:



This is an M:


Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 08:13:56 »
Quote from: Soarer;296026
There is clearly no persuading you!

This is an F:

Show Image


This is an M:

Show Image

Not sure what plane that is, but it's unlikely it's an F since women can't be combat fighter pilots.

Nevermind, I guess they changed that relatively recently.  Wonder what kind of plane that is..hmm.


Oh is that the girl thunderbird pilot?

Oh nope, she's not a blond.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_070605_Pilot,00.html


Ah Belgian f-16 pilot.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/damopabe/2926956561/

Hot.  If I had an air force I'd attack Belgium just to get in a duel with her. lol


This is an f type too.  There can be more than one you know?  



We're talking about keyboards here.  There's only two real f types, and they both look pretty much the same.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 08:41:42 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 08:48:11 »
Quote from: chimera15;296029
Hot.


Yes, very.

Actually, she's a decoy... as is the fact that those are an F16 and an M1A1... the pics were clumsy analogies of how Model F and Model M switches feel to type on... it's all about the switches ;-)

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 09:03:28 »
I have an AT F, I think I might even have an xt F, and had a model M before I destroyed it.  

I'd say they're more like:



« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 09:07:50 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline EverythingIBM

  • Posts: 1269
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 09:46:09 »
Quote from: kishy;294807
Why does 'model f' belong in the title of this?

And yeah, it's AT/XT switchable as the photos show.


I actually agree.

The title is also misleading because he's basically saying it's an IBM keyboard...

THAT IS NOT AN IBM KEYBOARD!!! It's a "computerland" one.

Of course, we know that IBM is placed in the title to get more hits... and maybe some sucker will be convinced it really is an IBM 'board.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:05:16 »
Wow, check out the modem in that pic.


Offline chimera15

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  • Posts: 1441
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:19:17 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;296075
I actually agree.

The title is also misleading because he's basically saying it's an IBM keyboard...

THAT IS NOT AN IBM KEYBOARD!!! It's a "computerland" one.

Of course, we know that IBM is placed in the title to get more hits... and maybe some sucker will be convinced it really is an IBM 'board.

Please.  I'm not selling this board.  I have no interest in it other than bringing it to the attention of this message board, for someone who might like a rare blue alps board.    I would have bought it, but I can't afford it.  I was hoping someone would buy it to keep it in this community, and that's the most interest I have in it.  I couldn't care less if no one saw as most of my posts here relating to ebay get almost no comments.   I doubt there's many people besides you who would care if it's an ibm board or not.  If I wanted to be misleading I could have gone a lot longer way than that.  What ibm board used blue alps?  They stopped making quality boards and computers after everyone started coming out with clones.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:24:54 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:24:04 »
Quote from: chimera15;296009
The 122 key terminal board is interesting in that it is both model m and f.  I have to wonder if those are specifications actually written on the board, or if that's an enthusiast term though.

As you can see in the eBay link I posted, the 122 key Model Ms had Model M stamped on the back.

Quote
Either way, the standard that everyone knows about is layout based

Inside your head maybe, for everyone else, no.

Quote
Show me a standard model F, non 122 key terminal board with model M stamped on it, or vice versa a model m layout type with F stamped on it and you may have won your argument.

One of those two 3178 boards is a Model M. I've also seen 5291 and 3290 terminal keyboards that were originally Model Fs but were later converted to Model M, often keeping the same part number.

Quote
I would be greatly surprised by that though.  Even if you managed to find one, it doesn't invalidate my definition of the Computerland board as a Model F type.

The IBM Model designation was a manufacturing designation. IBM never mentions Model M or Model F in any of its literature describing the keyboards. The AT Model F is the AT keyboard. The 101-key Model M is the Enhanced Keyboard, and so on.

Quote
Technically based on layout only those 122 terminal boards are a combination of M's and F's having function keys on the side and top, so it doesn't surprise me to see them stamped either way.

Except for the fact that that the ones using membrane buckling springs are stamped M, and the capacitive ones stamped F

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:30:30 »
You're still not showing me an f m, or vice versa though are you. Those 122 terminal boards are anomalies, and as I said, are either way, so the fact that the switch difference is dependent on the pcb or membrane is pretty insignificant in meaning, since the standard is layout isolated.
Whether they mention them in the literature is pointless as it's stamped on the underside of the boards and what everyone has come to define them as.


In other words I yield that it you're right that the m and f designation is switch based, but it doesn't make any difference, because in the end the F's all use side function key format, and the M's all use the top function key format, and only the 122 which uses both switch types and has both top and side switches.  The definition is still proper.

I state it's a model F type blue alps.  It's clear I'm not talking about the switch in the description because I'm stating the switch type is blue alps.  AT 84 isn't descriptive of the layout, and is more confusing.  If I had used that people would be complaining thinking it was a full mini.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:48:08 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:42:59 »
So, a Dell AT101W is a Black Alps Model M?

Feel free to demonstrate a Model M that has capacitive buckling springs, or a Model F that has membrane buckling springs.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:50:22 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:52:18 »
Quote from: ch_123;296114
So, a Dell AT101W is a Black Alps Model M?

Feel free to demonstrate a Model M that has capacitive buckling springs, or a Model F that has membrane buckling springs.

Yes.  Black alps model m type.   The only thing wrong about that is that enough people know what a bigfoot/at101w is, so it can have its own definition.  If the format, and brand was super rare like this board, as well as the switch type I would describe it just like that because that's what makes it worth looking at.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:56:54 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 10:55:00 »
Here's a Model M that was originally a Model F design

You still haven't explained why IBM never used the Model designations to describe layouts in their official discussions.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

  • The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
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  • Location: NCC-1701, USS Enterprise
  • Live long and prosper
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:00:57 »
I think there should be a sub-forum designated for pointless arguments.
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:02:36 »
Quote from: ch_123;296128
Here's a Model M that was originally a Model F design

You still haven't explained why IBM never used the Model designations to describe layouts in their official discussions.

If you actually read the thread you'd find those are Model C's and the Mod M's are stamped on boards that are capacitive, which according to all your theories should be a F.  You're the only one that put forward the theory that it's a Model M CH, based on your theories.  But the Mod M is on a capacitive board, so explain that?

It's hardly hard and fast that what I even agreed to is right based on that thread.

At any rate, you're talking about non pc boards.  There's no reason to believe they used the same nomenclature, nor does anyone these days know or care about that junk except maybe some of the people here.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:10:16 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

  • The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3025
  • Location: NCC-1701, USS Enterprise
  • Live long and prosper
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:04:12 »
Quote from: chimera15;296135
If you actually read the thread you'd find those are Model C's and the Mod M's are stamped on boards that are capacitive, which according to all your theories should be a F.


Model C's?  What???
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:11:56 »
Quote from: kishy;296133
The whole thing about this isn't just correcting you (yes, you are wrong) chimera, but...geekhack is considered a reference for information. If this kind of crap is allowed to be spread, it really discredits us as a community.

Refer to things however you want in your head, but try to make at least a minimal effort to be right when you declare something as fact.

Please, I'm not declaring anything is fact.  This isn't the wiki.  I'm pointing out a keyboard with an unusual design and rare switches, and trying to describe it the best way I know how. That's all.  I could have called it an old format thingy with blue pushy thingies.  

Alright, mod, please change the title to Cool old formatted thingy with blue pushy thingies to make everyone happy, cause I'm not sure I can do it.

You have some sort of chip on your shoulder Kishy, you pulled that fact bs before.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:22:43 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1441
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:24:45 »
Now everyone who's into thingies will tell me there's no such thing as blue thingies.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1441
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:26:25 »
Quote from: kishy;296146
May god forbid I try to encourage factual accuracy! Oh no!

I'm out of here - life's too short to waste it debating things with you when it has been overwhelmingly proven that you're wrong and what I say is at minimum agreed with.

I'm not wrong, my description is totally valid. There isn't a better one in reality, to describe this board, because I've asked and no one has given me one.   I would accept f clone, as someone else suggested, but it's not significantly different than f type in reality.  It's the nitpickers who want to dismantle every word and start flamewars that are wrong.

Everything is arguable if you want to argue.

 Look who the primary ones that I've had endless arguments before with are... Kishy and CH..wow what a surprise.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:32:13 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1352
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:41:09 »
That Model F auction is hawt!



Actually, it is useful because some people like the Model F layout and want other boards of the same layout, and would like to try different switches.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline chimera15

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1441
Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 11:47:49 »
Quote from: didjamatic;296157
That Model F auction is hawt!



Actually, it is useful because some people like the Model F layout and want other boards of the same layout, and would like to try different switches.

I already made that point, but they didn't seem to care. lol  They're basically trying to argue that there's no such thing as a Model F, and anyone using that term is wrong.  That it's only referring in essence to a switch type.  It's pretty ridiculous if you think about it.  Even if it's true, anyone searching or referring to a Model F AT or XT would be wrong because it wouldn't be specific to that board.  They could be talking about some 122 key board, or some weird terminal board.  That we should only refer to that model as an 84 key xt or at, not caring that there's about 20 other boards that are 84 key at's and xt's in different layouts.  It's just insane.  They're just looking to argue at best.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 12:01:08 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 12:46:22 »
Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;296136
Model C's?  What???


On some keyboards made around the turn of the 80s, IBM would give the model as being the sub-model of the terminal or computer it was designed to be attached to. Often the Model F label would be hidden away on the back of the keyboard assembly inside the casing.

Quote from: chimera15;296135
If you actually read the thread you'd find those are Model C's and the Mod M's are stamped on boards that are capacitive, which according to all your theories should be a F.  You're the only one that put forward the theory that it's a Model M CH, based on your theories.  But the Mod M is on a capacitive board, so explain that?


But it isn't a capacitive board. Webwit has a Model M-stamped 3178 board and he said that it was most definitely a membrane buckling spring board. For reasons unbeknownst, Webwit's posts have been since deleted. I'm sure I could point Webwit in your direction though, I'm sure he'd get a chuckle out of your wild conspiracy theories.

Quote
At any rate, you're talking about non pc boards.  There's no reason to believe they used the same nomenclature, nor does anyone these days know or care about that junk except maybe some of the people here.


So the stuff that proves you wrong is magically invalid. Right...

Quote
They're basically trying to argue that there's no such thing as a Model F, and anyone using that term is wrong.


Where was this claimed?

You've also never explained why beam spring keyboards are not stamped as being Model Fs. Pretty much any of the ones I can think of have function keys on the left hand side and yet none have been spotted with Model F markings either on the inside or the outside of the case.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:02:48 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:02:41 »
Quote from: ch_123;296186
On some keyboards made around the turn of the 80s, IBM would give the model as being the model of the terminal or computer it was designed to be attached to. Often the Model F label would be hidden away on the back of the keyboard assembly inside the casing.



But it isn't a capacitive board. Webwit has a Model M-stamped 3178 board and he said that it was most definitely a membrane buckling spring board. For reasons unbeknownst, Webwit's posts have been since deleted. I'm sure I could point Webwit in your direction though, I'm sure he'd get a chuckle out of your wild conspiracy theories.



So the stuff that proves you wrong is magically invalid. Right...



Where was this claimed?

You've also never explained why beam spring keyboards are not stamped as being Model Fs. Pretty much any of the ones I can think of have function keys on the left hand side and yet none have been spotted with Model F markings either on the inside or the outside of the case.


Stop being so ridiculous.  There are a lot of boards in the model F format. The F is the best known, that is all.   You arguing that there is no Model F or that model F applying to other boards is silly.  I've said this many times now.  When people talk about the model F, they're talking about the format, not the switch.  There are probably a handful of people that realized there is a physical difference between the switch in a M and F, and even then, you trying to prove that Model F refers to the capacitive nature of the switch just so you don't have to admit your wrong is just insane.  You bringing up all this other nonsense is pointless. As I've also stated many times now.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:10:07 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:08:10 »
Ah, so because I've found enough holes in your argument to drive an Abrams tank through, I'm ridiculous.

I just wonder why this wasn't nonsense when you were accusing Kishy of having a chip on his shoulder...

Quote
There are a lot of boards in the model F format. The F is the best known, that is all.


What the deuce does this even mean? Get some English lessons son!

Quote
You arguing that there is no Model F or that model F applying to other boards is silly. I've said this many times now.


You made some blanket assertions about the Model F corresponding to keyboards with a particular physical arrangement detail. I've demonstrated a wide array of examples that does not hold at all. This is called "reductio ad absurdum" the last I checked.

Quote
When people talk about the model F, they're talking about the format, not the switch. There are probably a handful of people that realized there is a physical difference between the switch in a M and F, and even then, you trying to prove that Model F refers to the capacitive nature of the switch just so you don't have to admit your wrong is just insane.


Unlike you, I like to be proved wrong because that way I learn something. You haven't come up with anything to show that I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:19:28 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:37:20 »
Quote from: ch_123;296196
Ah, so because I've found enough holes in your argument to drive an Abrams tank through, I'm ridiculous.

I just wonder why this wasn't nonsense when you were accusing Kishy of having a chip on his shoulder...



What the deuce does this even mean? Get some English lessons son!



You made some blanket assertions about the Model F corresponding to keyboards with a particular physical arrangement detail. I've demonstrated a wide array of examples that does not hold at all. This is called "reductio ad absurdum" the last I checked.



Unlike you, I like to be proved wrong because that way I learn something. You haven't come up with anything to show that I'm wrong.

Reductio ad absurdum is a fallacy when turned into a Fallacy of a general rule, which is what you are doing.  You haven't found any holes in my argument that my title is descriptive of the keyboard in question.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #50 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:42:32 »
So now you're pretending that my prior posts don't exist. I guess the "Big Book of Argumentation Techniques for Four Year Olds" probably represents the cutting edge of your capability...

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #51 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:46:50 »
Quote from: ch_123;296211
So now you're pretending that my prior posts don't exist. I guess the "Big Book of Argumentation Techniques for Four Year Olds" probably represents the cutting edge of your capability...


I'm not going to argue tit for tat, sentence by sentence, and out of context, as you seem to enjoy doing.  Everything you said is meaningless anyway and just trying to waste my and your time.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:49:07 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #52 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:51:12 »
See, here we go again "Everything you say is wrong because I assert it so"... You really need to come up with a new trick - I hear rolling over on command and fetching newspapers are the trendy ones these days.

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #53 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:55:32 »
Quote from: ch_123;296215
See, here we go again "Everything you say is wrong because I assert it so"... You really need to come up with a new trick - I hear rolling over on command and fetching newspapers are the trendy ones these days.

Once again you try to claim this because you want me to waste my time and try to prove a negative.  It's your line of argument that is trying to assert something that is ridiculous, and go against the common definition of a Model F.  If you put "model F keyboard" in google, a pcb doesn't come up, a model f keyboard comes up.  If you want to redefine it, it's up to you to prove your point, and give us something else to define that keyboard by, that doesn't conflict with 20+ other relatively common models, vs 2 really super rare ones.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:10:24 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #54 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 13:58:51 »
The common definition that exists inside your head. Show me some proof that this is a common definition.

I also thought this was a waste of time and everything I was saying was obviously wrong? I'm confused now.

Offline itlnstln

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #55 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:03:31 »
This thread:



Alternatively:



Offline ch_123

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« Reply #56 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:06:51 »
I'm here to see which way the train falls into the forest.

Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #57 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:09:11 »
Quote from: chimera15;296194
Stop being so ridiculous.  There are a lot of boards in the model F format. The F is the best known, that is all.
Incorrect. There are a lot of boards with the AT layout (or format if you prefer).

Quote from: chimera15;296194
You arguing that there is no Model F or that model F applying to other boards is silly.  I've said this many times now.
He even showed you pictures of actual Model F boards in a variety of layouts, how silly is that!

Quote from: chimera15;296194
When people talk about the model F, they're talking about the format, not the switch.
Granted, there are others that make the same mistake as you. But many of them would admit they were technically wrong.

Quote from: chimera15;296194
There are probably a handful of people that realized there is a physical difference between the switch in a M and F,
So, you have at least learnt this difference. Don't assume that others did not know.

Quote from: chimera15;296194
and even then, you trying to prove that Model F refers to the capacitive nature of the switch just so you don't have to admit your wrong is just insane.
Well that has been proved pretty conclusively, with multiple boards marked as F sharing the same switch technology, and boards with the same layout but with membranes being marked M. Only a fool would argue against it.

Quote from: chimera15;296194
You bringing up all this other nonsense is pointless.
Apart from proving that you are both rude and wrong.

Quote from: chimera15;296194
As I've also stated many times now.
Oh well, it must be correct then.

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:22:17 »
You all seem to be making the point that because a word has multiple definitions it has those definitions in all its uses.  That is faulty fallacious logic.  You also seem to like to stray off topic and away from the fact that the definition of the board as a Model F type blue alps keyboard is somehow incorrect which it in no way is.  Even if the 122 f and that other board was an F in this context it makes no difference.  If someone google image searched model F, and blue alps switches, they would have a clear understanding of what this board was comprised of.

The common definition of the Model F is the standard Model F, as shown by google image search.  9 out of 10 images are the standard model f.  1 out of 10 is that 122 board.  None of them are pcbs, at least not within the first 10 pages.   That is a source.  Even if the image search showed 9 out of 10 122 key boards as opposed to the 84, my definition would still not be incorrect. To insist otherwise is just idiocy or for no other reason than argument sake.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:27:59 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:23:27 »
Quote from: chimera15;296218
If you put "model F keyboard" in google, a pcb doesn't come up, a model f keyboard comes up.


Keyboards of multiple layouts come up, what they have in common is the switches (apart from the Japanese one, no-one seems to know what's in that, but probably beam springs).


Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:30:43 »
Quote from: Soarer;296236
Keyboards of multiple layouts come up, what they have in common is the switches (apart from the Japanese one, no-one seems to know what's in that, but probably beam springs).

The majority are standard model f's.

Even if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter.

This isn't Reductio ad absurdum,
This is Fallacy of a general rule.

A definition of a word isn't dependent on the majority use.   If even one person chooses to define a word in a particular way, it can hold that meaning.   You see this sort of thing in songs and parts of speech in isolated groups all the time. That's how language evolves.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:37:34 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 14:57:19 »
So it's right because you think it is right. Which contradicts your earlier assertion that your definition was in standard usage. I define you to be perpetually wrong by my own ill defined understanding of things, therefore you lose by your own logic.

I'm still dying to hear why IBM never used the model designations in their official publications, and referred to "Enhanced 101-key layout" and the like.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:01:08 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:00:39 »
Quote from: ch_123;296254
So it's right because you think it is right. Which contradicts your earlier assertion that your definition was in standard usage. I define you to be perpetually wrong by my own ill defined understanding of things, therefore you lose by your own logic.

No, I'm right because it's the standard usage, and even if it wasn't, it would still be right because I choose to define it that way, and you should be smart enough to figure out what I meant.  The fact that you can't, or choose not to, and over the last 6 pages argue over something absurd proves your level of intelligence, and probably that you have some psychological problems.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:05:52 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:04:32 »
You've never answered any of the important questions, and everytime they are posed, you insult the intelligence of the person asking them, and claim that you are not going to comment further. Except, you've done this quite a number of times now, and thus your projected levels of retardation are growing at an exponential rate. Keep going by all means, it provides amusement for everyone else.

Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:06:02 »
Quote from: chimera15;296256
No, I'm right because it's the standard usage, and even if it wasn't, it would still be right because I choose to define it that way, and you should be smart enough to figure out what I meant.


I'm going to put a million dollars into your bank account.

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:10:49 »
Quote from: ch_123;296257
You've never answered any of the important questions, and everytime they are posed, you insult the intelligence of the person asking them, and claim that you are not going to comment further. Except, you've done this quite a number of times now, and thus your projected levels of retardation are growing at an exponential rate. Keep going by all means, it provides amusement for everyone else.

You've never answered any of the important questions either.  Why don't you give me a for instance and I'll answer it.  

I'll give you one.  What do you want to call the Model F format besides the 84 key at?  You want to call it nothing?  Or maybe just a lesser known board with the same format?   As I said before, I could have said dc-2014 type blue alps AT keyboard, but no one knows what a dc-2014 is.  Your qualm is that I use a Model F to invoke a concept of a layout which is just nuts.  See this is where your point breaks down.

Search for 84 key AT keyboard in google and see what comes up, and tell me I was wrong.

http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1229&bih=542&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=84+key+at+keyboard&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Even the model M spacesaver is an 84key AT keyboard.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:20:42 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:19:55 »
Off the top of my head - the PC/XT (and variants), System/23 Datamaster, 5291, 3178, 122-key and 104-key 3270 keyboards, 4700 terminal keyboard and its keypad. Probably the keypads of the contemporary IBM Electronic Typewriters (the later Wheelwriters had keypads with Model M designations despite not having left hand function keys and no top function keys) and possibly some other stuff I'm not thinking of right now that used capacitive buckling springs. A bunch of stuff with rather disparate layouts and key arrangements.

Ooh, an unanswered question - how come IBM or indeed any other manufacturer never used Model F to describe the layout of the original AT keyboard? Or Model M to describe the 101-key Enhanced layout (as they all called it)

Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:22:46 »
Quote from: chimera15;296262
You've never answered any of the important questions either.  Why don't you give me a for instance and I'll answer it.  

I'll give you one.  What do you want to call the Model F format besides the 84 key xt or at?  You want to call it nothing?

Search for 84 key AT keyboard in google and see what comes up, and tell me I was wrong.

http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1229&bih=542&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=84+key+at+keyboard&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Even the model M spacesaver is an 84key AT keyboard.

It's really very simple.

'AT keyboard' means a keyboard compatible with the AT. Of course lots are.

'AT layout' means the layout that was introduced with the IBM PC-AT.

'Model F format' means nothing, it's self-contradictory.

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #68 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:23:05 »
Quote from: ch_123;296266
Off the top of my head - the PC/XT (and variants), System/23 Datamaster, 5291, 3178, 122-key and 104-key 3270 keyboards, 4700 terminal keyboard and its keypad. Probably the keypads of the contemporary IBM Electronic Typewriters (the later Wheelwriters had keypads with Model M designations despite not having left hand function keys and no top function keys) and possibly some other stuff I'm not thinking of right now that used capacitive buckling springs. A bunch of stuff with rather disparate layouts and key arrangements.

Ooh, an unanswered question - how come IBM or indeed any other manufacturer never used Model F to describe the layout of the original AT keyboard? Or Model M to describe the 101-key Enhanced layout (as they all called it)


 Is that what IBM called the format, or are those boards?

I am curious what IBM referred to the format though if it makes sense.  Was it just side function keys? Or was it simply because that's all there was they didn't have a name for it?

They stamped model F and certainly Model M on the tags.  I already answered that.  Those boards are in those formats, therefore they can be used to invoke the definition of the layout.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:31:25 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:32:36 »
Quote from: Soarer;296269
It's really very simple.

'AT keyboard' means a keyboard compatible with the AT. Of course lots are.

'AT layout' means the layout that was introduced with the IBM PC-AT.

'Model F format' means nothing, it's self-contradictory.

How is it self contradictory?  It means... the format the keys are in on a model F.  Model F is a type of board, as it has come to be defined, that has been established.  

AT layout is the one that's meaningless.  All keyboards designed after xt's are AT layouts.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #70 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:33:11 »
Quote from: chimera15;296270
No one has a clue what those are.   Is that what IBM called the format, or are those boards? Ultimately though it doesn't matter what IBM calls them, it matters what people call them today.


Which in this context is the AT keyboard. Which is pretty much what IBM called them anyway. Calling it a Model F is ambiguous because a) there were a number of layouts used by different Model F keyboards and b) this is not an IBM keyboard and no one except IBM used the Model F designation to describe their PC/XT or AT layout keyboards.

Quote
I am curious what IBM referred to the format though if it makes sense.  Was it just side function keys? Or was it simply because that's all there was they didn't have a name for it?


They didn't have or particularly need a name for it. Before the Enhanced Keyboard (i.e. 101/102-key Model M) almost all of IBM's keyboards had those side function keys. Their absence on the Enhanced Keyboard layout was probably due to IBM believing that F keys along the top was better.

Offline chimera15

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #71 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:37:32 »
Quote from: ch_123;296281
Which in this context is the AT keyboard. Which is pretty much what IBM called them anyway. Calling it a Model F is ambiguous because a) there were a number of layouts used by different Model F keyboards and b) this is not an IBM keyboard and no one except IBM used the Model F designation to describe their PC/XT or AT layout keyboards.



They didn't have or particularly need a name for it. Before the Enhanced Keyboard (i.e. 101/102-key Model M) almost all of IBM's keyboards had those side function keys. Their absence on the Enhanced Keyboard layout was probably due to IBM believing that F keys along the top was better.



Right, so now, because they didn't have a name for it.  It's a Model F layout.  Just like an hhkb layout is an hhkb layout, or the minitouch is a minitouch layout,  or any other board can be defined by the board that has the layout. This is getting circular.  I already stated this.

There are a lot of boards that use layouts similar to the minitouch, or hhkb, but no one would know what they were if they were new or rare, so it's easy to describe them by previous well known boards.  The fact that I used an ibm board in this case is meaningless.  If another company had a board with this format that was better known I would have used it.

I find the fact that you take issue with calling a model f, a model f, that everyone uses on ebay, and half a dozen other websites into keyboards use to identify that board, that even if not precisely correct because IBM didn't call it that, pretty insane.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:54:34 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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« Reply #72 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 15:59:12 »
Quote from: chimera15;296280
How is it self contradictory?  It means... the format the keys are in on a model F.
Because it's like saying 'blue alps format'.

Quote from: chimera15;296280
Model F is a type of board, as it has come to be defined, that has been established.
It has not been established. This whole 'discussion' is based around disagreement on that point.

Quote from: chimera15;296280
AT layout is the one that's meaningless.  All keyboards designed after xt's are AT layouts.
Keyboards 'have' layouts. And certainly not all keyboards since the XT have 'AT layouts', that is truly preposterous.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:05:12 by Soarer »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #73 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:00:35 »
But again, which Model F layout? Are we talking about the XT layout? The AT layout? The 4700 Financial Terminal layout? Before you accuse me of being anal, go look at the amount of threads where people think that AT Model Fs are XT Model Fs or vice-versa. Or think that a keyboard like the one you linked IS an IBM Model F because it has the same layout. Making up your own terminology just confuses people who don't know better, and we're all meant to be helping people understand this stuff. So even if everyone uses the term "Model F" to describe an AT layout keyboard (which seriously, isn't the standard thing that everyone calls it), it's still stupid, and Kishy was right in the first place to call you out on it.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:03:47 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #74 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:04:29 »
Quote from: ch_123;296297
But again, which Model F layout? Are we talking about the XT layout? The AT layout? The 4700 Financial Terminal layout? Before you accuse me of being anal, go look at the amount of threads where people think that AT Model Fs are XT Model Fs or vice-versa. Or think that a keyboard like the one you linked IS an IBM Model F because it has the same layout. Making up your own terminology just confuses people who don't know better, and we're all meant to be helping people understand this stuff.

 

XT F's and AT F's are easy to get confused because they do look very similar.  It's why I don't care and used the term Model F to describe this board.
I'm not making up my own terminology.  I was referring to the imb model f to describe the overall format of the computerland.  That's why I used the word TYPE. That should be obvious to anyone but a total moron.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:19:02 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

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« Reply #75 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:06:06 »
Quote from: Soarer;296296
Because it's like saying 'blue alps format'.


It has not been established. This whole 'discussion' is based around disagreement on that point.


Keyboards 'have' layouts. And certainly not all keyboards since the XT have the same layout, that is truly preposterous.

No, it really isn't the same, because no one uses Model F to refer to "capacitive buckling spring pc switches".  A model f is a model f keyboard, and I modified it by saying it has blue alps.  Obviously it's not going to have capacitive and blue alps, and I wouldn't have put blue alps if I was referring to the switches, as that also would have been obvious.  You should be smart enough to logic that out even if you believed that "Model F=buckling spring capacitive" and nothing else.  You see, words can have multiple properties assigned to them.  Model F refers to the caps, format, the switch, the case, the pcb, and the springs, and the cord, not just the pcb of the keyboard which you all seem to be arguing, again ridiculously.

All boards since the XT are AT.  They have hundreds if not thousands of formats.  Therefore there are thousands of AT formats.  Defining this board as AT Format would have been meaningless.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:20:43 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:14:22 »
Quote from: chimera15;296301
No, it really isn't the same, because no one uses Model F to refer to "capacitive buckling spring pc switches".  A model f is a model f keyboard, and I modified it by saying it has blue alps.  Obviously it's not going to have capacitive and blue alps, and I wouldn't have put blue alps if I was referring to the switches, as that also would have been obvious.  You should be smart enough to logic that out even if you believed that Model F=buckling spring capacitive.


Lots of threads here have discussed the differences between Model F switches and Model M switches, irrespective of what keyboard or layout they are in. So really, how can you say no-one uses the term to refer to switches?

You should be smart enough to figure out what I meant by the million dollars comment I made earlier then...

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #77 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:16:16 »
Quote from: chimera15;296300
Dude I have AT and XT model f's, they're insignificant in their differences in reality.


Let's see - one will work with a modern computer out of the box. One will not. That's a pretty big difference in my book. In fact, that's the sort of confusion that would ruin your day if you got them mixed up while buying them.

Quote
You should be smart enough to figure out what I meant by the million dollars comment I made earlier then...


You're making some rather fatal assumptions here.

Quote
All boards since the XT are AT. They have hundreds if not thousands of formats. Therefore there are thousands of AT formats. Defining this board as AT Format would have been meaningless.


But everyone, including IBM and everyone who makes keyboards uses this terminology. It's very simple really, it's the layout associated with the PC AT. Just look at any of the vintage computer sites, or any reference which talks about keyboard layouts. No one has heard of Model F, everyone uses AT.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:24:36 by ch_123 »

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #78 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:24:28 »
Quote from: Soarer;296308
Lots of threads here have discussed the differences between Model F switches and Model M switches, irrespective of what keyboard or layout they are in. So really, how can you say no-one uses the term to refer to switches?

You should be smart enough to figure out what I meant by the million dollars comment I made earlier then...



I have no interest in your meaning, and guess what, I'm ignoring it, like you should have done to this thread.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #79 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:26:05 »
You keep saying that and it's getting a bit repetitive now. I suggest developing some testicular fortitude and just accepting that you're wrong.

Quote
like you should have done to this thread.


But I thought I was about to see some very unusual Model F variant that did not use capacitive buckling springs, but Blue Alps instead. Boy, was I disappointed.

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #80 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:29:39 »
Quote from: ch_123;296323
You keep saying that and it's getting a bit repetitive now. I suggest developing some testicular fortitude and just accepting that you're wrong.



But I thought I was about to see some very unusual Model F variant that did not use capacitive buckling springs, but Blue Alps instead. Boy, was I disappointed.

You betray your own statement that model f's are capacitive switches by your very own words.  It is a model F in almost every property, just because it's not made by IBM, or because the click is slightly different, which you accepted because you knew it was blue alps, you're disappointed? Seriously, that makes no sense at all.  You're just another IBM fanboy I guess is what it comes down to?
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:35:10 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #81 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:35:20 »
Essential reading

You really aren't the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #82 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:38:01 »
Quote from: ch_123;296331
Essential reading

You really aren't the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

Irony doesn't express well in writing. If you knew anything about writing you should have known that.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline ch_123

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« Reply #83 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:41:04 »
I must admit it's been a while since my last bestseller.

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #84 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:47:34 »
Quote from: ch_123;296336
I must admit it's been a while since my last bestseller.


Maybe you should spend less time arguing idiocy on message boards and more time working.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #85 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:51:28 »
Quote from: chimera15;296320
I have no interest in your meaning, and guess what, I'm ignoring it, like you should have done to this thread.


Yep, ignore it. Like you do with anything that doesn't match your world view.

But you threw the baby out with the bathwater:

Lots of threads here have discussed the differences between Model F switches and Model M switches, irrespective of what keyboard or layout they are in. So really, how can you say no-one uses the term to refer to switches?

Offline Soarer

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« Reply #86 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:53:16 »
Quote from: chimera15;296339
Maybe you should spend less time arguing idiocy on message boards and more time working.


At least you admit that's what it is!

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #87 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:54:01 »
Quote from: Soarer;296341
Yep, ignore it. Like you do with anything that doesn't match your world view.

But you threw the baby out with the bathwater:

Lots of threads here have discussed the differences between Model F switches and Model M switches, irrespective of what keyboard or layout they are in. So really, how can you say no-one uses the term to refer to switches?

I can say it because I know not as a fact, but as a probability that the majority of people with these keyboards have never opened them, let alone taken them apart to pcb/ membrane level like I and others on this board have. Likewise the probability is that most of them don't care.

Likewise I'm not interested in your message because the probability of it being rude and or insulting is high.
« Last Edit: Wed, 16 February 2011, 16:56:08 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Soarer

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Cool model f type blue alps
« Reply #88 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 17:00:07 »
Quote from: chimera15;296344
I can say it because I know not as a fact, but as a probability that the majority of people with these keyboards have never opened them, let alone taken them apart to pcb/ membrane level like I and others on this board have.


How does that matter? Those people would simply call it a 'keyboard'. If you're lucky, a 'white keyboard'. That's no use at all to us!

Offline Soarer

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« Reply #89 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 17:04:25 »
Quote from: chimera15;296344
Likewise I'm not interested in your message because the probability of it being rude and or insulting is high.


Well, it wasn't.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #90 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 17:11:42 »
Quote from: chimera15;296339
Maybe you should spend less time arguing idiocy on message boards and more time working.


I must admit that I find discussing your idiocy to be quite amusing. One must indulge in one's creature comforts.

Offline kps

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« Reply #91 on: Wed, 16 February 2011, 17:43:23 »
This thread is awesome!



I must say, for me the canonical ‘Model F layout’ is the one used (with different labels, of course) on the first buckling spring keyboards – small left shift, distant vertical return, double-width keys above the number pad, and triple-size plus:



Since I don't own a PC/AT, I'd forgotten that the AT keyboard also used Model F switches.

Offline JBert

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« Reply #92 on: Thu, 17 February 2011, 13:15:13 »
Wait, we'r still discussing this model F AT clone keyboard? Great scott!
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #93 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 05:57:06 »
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 February 2011, 06:21:10 by ch_123 »