Great IBM Model M Product - pricey but worth it

[fohat.digs]

For the discriminating shopper who desires a really top-shelf Model M - here it is.

This craftsman goes all the way to produce a truly superior product. Don't complain about the price - if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291030871013?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D291030871013%26_rdc%3D1

[jdcarpe]

Wow. That's a nice one! Sounds like the seller really cares and puts a lot of added value into their products.

[Aer Fixus]

I saw that one. Not my price range, but damn, that's a nice M and a knowledgeable seller. Clean, comes with a converter and a new foam case. It's even bolt modded (screw modded, really. Same difference)! Plus the pictures and the description look very professional.

[berserkfan]

everytime i see examples like this, I curse myself for having nearly zero technical skills. bolt modding is somewhere on my list of 'must do' projects that are undoable at my current level of skill and won't become doable anytime within the next 10 years.

For the discriminating shopper who desires a really top-shelf Model M - here it is.

This craftsman goes all the way to produce a truly superior product. Don't complain about the price - if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291030871013?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D291030871013%26_rdc%3D1

[Elrick]

This craftsman goes all the way to produce a truly superior product. Don't complain about the price - if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291030871013?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D291030871013%26_rdc%3D1

SO TRUE.  Anyone that can successfully restore one of these ancient's, deserves their money wholeheartedly.

No one should think that cleaning, fixing, restoring everything to a 100% workable keyboard - is something easy nor cheap.  This guy went all out to give any future owner, a keyboard that will out live them  .

[Moosecraft]

Shipping to me is 246$ 

[mr_schnrub]

Very schmick!

[berserkfan]

That may be true, but a keyboard is also a very personal thing. To me, if I don't get my hands on the keyboard and tinker with it, it doesn't really feel Mine. It's like the guys who insist on tinkering with their cars because it makes them feel like real owners.

I'm a terrible solderer and my teensies look terrible. But you know what? They're Mine. As long as they work, who cares if there are some big balls of solder and some small balls of solder?

No matter what a great craftsman he is, I am never going to buy from him. Buying an artwork makes you a collector, not a modder or real user or enthusiast. In fact I feel very irritated at Fohat's use of the term Product. That feels wrong, somehow. A craftsman doesn't make Products. These are produced in factories by cheap labor doing repetitive work.

(Typed on MY keyboard, currently a Model M122 with teensy programmed with my macros, customized keycaps, painted casing. Kudos to Soarer, Wcass, Dorkvader, Fohat and others for helping me along the way)

This craftsman goes all the way to produce a truly superior product. Don't complain about the price - if you can't afford it, don't buy it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291030871013?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D291030871013%26_rdc%3D1

SO TRUE.  Anyone that can successfully restore one of these ancient's, deserves their money wholeheartedly.

No one should think that cleaning, fixing, restoring everything to a 100% workable keyboard - is something easy nor cheap.  This guy went all out to give any future owner, a keyboard that will out live them  .

[127001]

Buying an artwork makes you a collector, not a modder or real user or enthusiast.

Not too sure why a collector isn't/can't be a real user/enthusiast but okay

Also, I'd bet there's thousands of new-gen industrial designers that would have a strong opposing opinion to your ideas of craftsmen and products.

Regardless, This board does seem like a good deal to me, the seller must have put at least $30 worth of time/and parts into the board.

[berserkfan]

of course it's a good deal. I ain't opposed to anyone buying it.

It's just not for me. Just me talking about my own personal feelings. It's not important that many people or 99% of people have strong opposing views. They're not me. Do I sound like a next gen industrial designer, somebody who deliberately designs big balls of solder onto some solder joints and small balls of solder onto other solder joints?

And aren't you the awesome guy who created an entire museum display showing the history of the Model M and F? You don't normally take that beam spring out of your collection and use it, do you?

Buying an artwork makes you a collector, not a modder or real user or enthusiast.

Not too sure why a collector isn't/can't be a real user/enthusiast but okay

Also, I'd bet there's thousands of new-gen industrial designers that would have a strong opposing opinion to your ideas of craftsmen and products.

Regardless, This board does seem like a good deal to me, the seller must have put at least $30 worth of time/and parts into the board.

[bueller]

No matter what a great craftsman he is, I am never going to buy from him. Buying an artwork makes you a collector, not a modder or real user or enthusiast. In fact I feel very irritated at Fohat's use of the term Product. That feels wrong, somehow. A craftsman doesn't make Products. These are produced in factories by cheap labor doing repetitive work.

What are you going on about.

[127001]

of course it's a good deal. I ain't opposed to anyone buying it.

It's just not for me. Just me talking about my own personal feelings. It's not important that many people or 99% of people have strong opposing views. They're not me. Do I sound like a next gen industrial designer, somebody who deliberately designs big balls of solder onto some solder joints and small balls of solder onto other solder joints?

And aren't you the awesome guy who created an entire museum display showing the history of the Model M and F? You don't normally take that beam spring out of your collection and use it, do you?

I hear ya.

And no I haven't had a chance to use the beamspring yet. I do have plans of making a new controller and restoring it though. I just haven't really had the time to start that project yet. I've got a F XT that's almost completely restored (just need to resemble it). I feel like I need to finish that one before I go head first into that beamspring monster . That said I bought another yesterday  . I would love to get a chance to use it though... some day. I do switch out which keyboard I use every now and then. I have a converter for some of the terminal based ones (I use those when I game) and I use the M15 from time to time (I imagine more so when I'll have to do some heavy writing).

[fohat.digs]

A craftsman doesn't make Products.

What are you going on about.

What else do you call something that someone produced?

True, the word is rather generic, like referring to music as "content" but it is the least common denominator.

Realistically, I think that this seller would need to get somewhere in the mid-high-$100 range to make the enterprise viable. It looks like he has a number of these to sell, and I recommend that anyone who wants a really spectacular Model M buy one from him while they are available.

I have probably done around a dozen M bolt-mods, and it is always harder and more tedious than you would imagine. I would guess that there will always be multiple hours involved in each one, along with a non-trivial supply of parts.

[berserkfan]

HA!

Fohat, when I was young, I loved the piano and considered being a music teacher.

You don't call music Content. Not even if I was the one playing it. (I'm only a barely competent pianist, and I still find it offensive to call my playing Content.)

Content is only used by business people, studio executives and other non-musicians.

This is the difference between somebody out for profit, and somebody who's dedicated to his art. I won't low-ball an artist because it's mean, but if someone is doing a business, then he's got to be thick skinned and endure tough bargaining.

You can probably pay somebody in China or some other low-wage countries to bolt-mod your keyboard for $20. Together with materials, it should be under $50.

For a craftsman, I have no idea of the real value, but it definitely is far, far higher.

So is that a product or a piece of craftsmanship? That's an interesting issue, isn't it? A craftsman deserves geekhack prices. A producer should compete with generic products from China, including bolt modded keyboards should they ever be listed on Taobao.

I can assure you, that outside Geekhack, people won't pay anything for mechanical keyboards. Talking to some people who don't appreciate such things, they estimate things like $20 for the value of a Model F "because it is heavy and there is lots of metal" and $2 for a blue switch Filco "because it is noisier than a rubber dome worth $10". A Click-Clack "looks like one of those Chinese toys you can get from a kiddie vending machine" so it's worth $0.50. A full set of Topre blank keycaps are worth $0 because they are "flawed, you can't see anything; factory forgot to print legends and you can't put them into the recycling bin because they are plastic".

 

A craftsman doesn't make Products.

What are you going on about.

What else do you call something that someone produced?

True, the word is rather generic, like referring to music as "content" but it is the least common denominator.

Realistically, I think that this seller would need to get somewhere in the mid-high-$100 range to make the enterprise viable. It looks like he has a number of these to sell, and I recommend that anyone who wants a really spectacular Model M buy one from him while they are available.

I have probably done around a dozen M bolt-mods, and it is always harder and more tedious than you would imagine. I would guess that there will always be multiple hours involved in each one, along with a non-trivial supply of parts.

[riotonthebay]

I sent some words of encouragement to the seller for doing such a great job, and also asked what kind of effort goes into a restoration of this quality.

He responded that the current high bid ($86) is roughly what he paid for the keyboard in the first place, because he only works with quality boards without scratches, etc. Additionally, the EPS foam inserts cost about $15, the box about $5, the NOS cable was $20, the USB converter was $15, the SS screws cost $18, and the labor was around 5 hours.

[Aer Fixus]

He really did go all out on that keyboard. No skimping on this board.

I'd feel terrible if it didn't sell well.

I can assure you, that outside Geekhack, people won't pay anything for mechanical keyboards. Talking to some people who don't appreciate such things, they estimate things like $20 for the value of a Model F "because it is heavy and there is lots of metal" and $2 for a blue switch Filco "because it is noisier than a rubber dome worth $10". A Click-Clack "looks like one of those Chinese toys you can get from a kiddie vending machine" so it's worth $0.50. A full set of Topre blank keycaps are worth $0 because they are "flawed, you can't see anything; factory forgot to print legends and you can't put them into the recycling bin because they are plastic".

I mostly agree. A lot of people do this, but then there are those who believe that everything old is valuable, or things that are different are valuable. I see this all the time at yard sales where I look at an item, knowing what it's worth or that the particular version isn't worth that much and someone goes up and offers way too much for it (or pays the high price written on the sticker), especially for yard sale pricing.

[fohat.digs]

I'd feel terrible if it didn't sell well.

So the question is: Is $120 + shipping considered "selling well"?

I suspect that is hardly enough to do much more than cover the sellers costs. On the other hand, there was active bidding, so maybe that is a realistic price point for a high-end upgraded Model M.

[Aer Fixus]

I sent some words of encouragement to the seller for doing such a great job, and also asked what kind of effort goes into a restoration of this quality.

He responded that the current high bid ($86) is roughly what he paid for the keyboard in the first place, because he only works with quality boards without scratches, etc. Additionally, the EPS foam inserts cost about $15, the box about $5, the NOS cable was $20, the USB converter was $15, the SS screws cost $18, and the labor was around 5 hours.

I'd feel terrible if it didn't sell well.

So the question is: Is $120 + shipping considered "selling well"?

I suspect that is hardly enough to do much more than cover the sellers costs. On the other hand, there was active bidding, so maybe that is a realistic price point for a high-end upgraded Model M.

According to riotonthebay, the seller would have made $34 ($120-$86), which I'd say is somewhat decent if the seller spent that ~5 hours on more than one at a time, especially if he does it as less of a business and more of a hobby.

[riotonthebay]

I sent some words of encouragement to the seller for doing such a great job, and also asked what kind of effort goes into a restoration of this quality.

He responded that the current high bid ($86) is roughly what he paid for the keyboard in the first place, because he only works with quality boards without scratches, etc. Additionally, the EPS foam inserts cost about $15, the box about $5, the NOS cable was $20, the USB converter was $15, the SS screws cost $18, and the labor was around 5 hours.

I'd feel terrible if it didn't sell well.

So the question is: Is $120 + shipping considered "selling well"?

I suspect that is hardly enough to do much more than cover the sellers costs. On the other hand, there was active bidding, so maybe that is a realistic price point for a high-end upgraded Model M.

According to riotonthebay, the seller would have made $34 ($120-$86), which I'd say is somewhat decent if the seller spent that ~5 hours on more than one at a time, especially if he does it as less of a business and more of a hobby.

Unfortunately, the seller actually claimed that he paid nearly $86 for the keyboard in the first place, and an additional $73 of materials. He would have had to buy the keyboard for $47 to break even, and that includes no compensation for the 5 hours of labor.

Seems like a pretty unsuccessful sale from his point of view .

[Aer Fixus]

I sent some words of encouragement to the seller for doing such a great job, and also asked what kind of effort goes into a restoration of this quality.

He responded that the current high bid ($86) is roughly what he paid for the keyboard in the first place, because he only works with quality boards without scratches, etc. Additionally, the EPS foam inserts cost about $15, the box about $5, the NOS cable was $20, the USB converter was $15, the SS screws cost $18, and the labor was around 5 hours.

I'd feel terrible if it didn't sell well.

So the question is: Is $120 + shipping considered "selling well"?

I suspect that is hardly enough to do much more than cover the sellers costs. On the other hand, there was active bidding, so maybe that is a realistic price point for a high-end upgraded Model M.

According to riotonthebay, the seller would have made $34 ($120-$86), which I'd say is somewhat decent if the seller spent that ~5 hours on more than one at a time, especially if he does it as less of a business and more of a hobby.

Unfortunately, the seller actually claimed that he paid nearly $86 for the keyboard in the first place, and an additional $73 of materials. He would have had to buy the keyboard for $47 to break even, and that includes no compensation for the 5 hours of labor.

Seems like a pretty unsuccessful sale from his point of view .

Oh, geez. I didn't read that right. I thought the $86 included parts.
Yeah. A $39 loss isn't very good for the seller. I definitely think that they could've gotten a better price on the original board (even without skimping, just careful scrutiny), especially one with the express intention of restoring and selling, however I am not them.

[dante]

It's back ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-keyboard-thoroughly-cleaned-bolt-modded-with-active-USB-converter-/291036321641

[berserkfan]

considering what he put into it, if the auction had ended at $120 it wouldn't be a good deal for seller. but there are people who do this as a hobby, and hobbies don't always make money.

Here am I, typing on my only working F XT which I'd painted and messed around with and even use styrofoam in lieu of legs. I've got a working but ugly (badly soldered) teensy. I know if any of you guys are perfectionists this sucks. but I'm happy. It's very enjoyable typing on an antique that works so well and which fits most of my daily purposes!

For a hobbyist, he should not be too sad if he's not making money. The pleasure comes from the hobby.

But that said, I'm really impressed with his knowledge and interest in this subject. This is the kind of guy who should be on geekhack having conversations with fohat while ignoramuses like me watch the thread and learn!

It's back ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-keyboard-thoroughly-cleaned-bolt-modded-with-active-USB-converter-/291036321641

[fohat.digs]

It is my understanding that this seller is looking at this as a money-making venture and has at least a dozen of these to sell.

It is a blessing and a curse to be having this discussion on a hobbyist forum. For some of us (that would be me) tinkering and learning is part of the fun. Virtually every used keyboard that I have bought has been completely disassembled and cleaned, at the minimum. This has gotten me into trouble on many occasions, things like broken stabilizers are particularly bothersome.

However, I suspect that there are quite a few people here (majority?) who want a great keyboard but don't think of a keyboard and a screwdriver in the same sentence. For them, for a mere $100 bill extra, they can have a superlative classic keyboard that is almost surely better than anything that they could have built for themselves.

A fully restored classic like this deserves to be at least in the same price range as a solid top-shelf (eg Filco) modern keyboard.

PS - If I was doing bolt-mods for hire, I would add the secret key that is the right side of Left Shift next to "Z" so that people could map it to Windows or Command.