I need help from the community

[mniels]

First of all, if this is not the correct place for this post, please let me know and I will move it.

I am having a big problem with a forum member and PayPal.  I am not an active member of the community at the moment, so I am not up to speed on a lot of stuff, but I sold my spot in the E8-V1 group buy back in June.  As I now understand it, the board still has not shipped.  I have no idea why.

The problem is that the member I sold the spot to has opened a dispute in PayPal, causing me a great deal of financial stress.  I am not the person responsible for delivering his product, and it is understood that group buys are not guarantees.

I am currently waiting on a callback from PayPal, as the resolution center at this point will only allow me to refund or provide proof of delivery to resolve the dispute.  I am hoping that speaking directly with PayPal will help.

Below is the entirety of the messages in the dispute.  I almost never check the email address associated with my PayPal because I rarely use the service anymore.  Luckily, I signed in 10 days ago and saw the dispute.

12/17/2017 21:17 EST - PayPal: Buyer escalated this dispute to a Claim.
12/17/2017 21:17 EST - Buyer: I purchased a spot in a group buy for a mechanical keyboard from the seller (Mathew W***********) but there are major problems with the group buy at this point. I am not certain in the ability of the manufacturer to deliver the product described in a timely manner anymore. The seller will get back the spot on the group buy and possibly receive the keyboard depending on the manufacturer ability to deliver a product.
12/16/2017 22:06 EST - Buyer: I have been in contact with them but they have failed to deliver a product in a timely manner. Jhoang has supposedly been in the hospital for a while and has failed to communicate about the group buy and the time frame. Kuang has tried to pick up the pieces but this was never his burden to bear and as such as been rather hard to get any answer out of. I have sent you an email also explaining the situation. At this point this is my only course of action. I have already emailed Kuang about you getting back your keyboard and the spot. At this point I just want out.
12/16/2017 21:32 EST - Seller: I am very confused. I sold you my spot in the group buy, there was nothing for me to send to you. The item was coming from the group buy, not me. You were to contact the runner of the group buy, Jhoang. Below is the text from the email:Re: Buying your spot« Sent to: Workglove27 on: Thu, 06 July 2017, 18:42:14 » ReplyQuoteDeleteI get you my PayPal address (****) so you can send the payment. I will send an message to the organizer that I have sold my spot to you, and CC you on the message. You respond to confirm, and from there you talk to him and give him your address and whatever else he may need. Pretty simple process, actually. Jhoang is a good guy and very easy to work with.It was your responsibility to give him your information and address for shipping. I am not an active member of the community, I have no idea if they have even shipped yet. Please remove this case ASAP, you are causing me financial hardship on something that I am not responsible for shipping to you. If the group buy has not shipped, that is an issue with the supplier of the product. I simply sold you my spot in line.Thank you,-Matt
12/16/2017 11:54 EST - Buyer: Item was not delivered in a timely maner.


It should be fairly obvious that I am not responsible for his keyboard.  Has anyone else dealt with this?  I sold the spot originally due to financial hardship, and if I lose this dispute it is going to cause me serious problems.

Thank you in advance for any help or advice.

Matt

[xondat]

Unfortunately you're ****ed unless you can deliver the keyboard. You can't sell a "spot", or moreso PayPal won't understand this.

[mniels]

Man, I hope you are wrong.  I just understand why someone would do this to begin with.  It is just wrong.  If you buy a spot from someone else (which is incredibly common) you understand the risks.  This just feels vindictive.  He can't get back at the group buy, so he is going after me.  Sorry, I am just incredibly upset by this.

[ghostjuggernaut]

Best chance is to provide as much proof on your behalf and hope for the best. PP is notorious for siding with the buyer in these types of situations so best of luck. Worst case you lose the dispute and have to look at alternate options. Not sure if small claims would be worth it(if in the US), but always an option.

[joey]

The board hasn't shipped yet, right? So worst comes to worst you get the board from kuang (hopefully?) and can sell it later?

[mniels]

Problem is, especially after xmas with two small children, it will cause many many problems.  It is $500, so no small potatoes.

[daskeybo]

This is why only 1 Group Buy should be allowed from a person at a time.

What Group Buy was it?

[mniels]

E8-V1.  I just looked at the thread and there seems to be a lot of confusion about when everything is actually going out.  Here is an interesting situation.  No one seems to be able to get a hold of the guy running the buy.  What happens if I lose the PayPal decision and the board still goes out to the guy trying to get his money back from me?  If no one can contact the buy runner, this guy could keep the keyboard if it shipped and I would never know.

[mniels]

Does anyone know if anyone has picked up the reins for getting stuff shipped?  If I can get some kind of info it might save me on this....

[_rubik]

This is purely a shot in the dark, and I could be wrong in this idea but... maybe reach out the to gb runner and explain the situation. Perhaps he has a spare sample or proto that he could get to you. Its a long shot, but if you're getting pushed from PayPal it might just do the trick.

[mniels]

Man, I wish I could.  Apparently part of the problem is that no one can get a hold of him.

[mniels]

This is interesting, I just looked at the original invoice and the line item is "E8-V1 Group Buy."  I am hoping that will make a difference.

[shadowrealmwarez]

Just an FYI, your email address is in plain text.

Sadly PayPal will probably side with the buyer as they won't understand what a groupbuy is or how one can sell/buy one. Although it may depend on if the buyer paid an invoice or just sent you the money it could be considered a digital buy maybe(?) and therefore nothing physical to send on your end as its up to another party. 

If you're worried about PayPal siding with them and them taking the money directly from your bank account or charging your card you could attempt to remove your bank account(s) and card(s) from the PayPal account but doing so and them siding with the buyer will cause your account to be negative X amount of dollars until you of course pay it or PayPal closes your account.

[HoffmanMyster]

Unfortunately you're ****ed unless you can deliver the keyboard. You can't sell a "spot", or moreso PayPal won't understand this.

Best chance is to provide as much proof on your behalf and hope for the best. PP is notorious for siding with the buyer in these types of situations so best of luck. Worst case you lose the dispute and have to look at alternate options. Not sure if small claims would be worth it(if in the US), but always an option.

Sadly, PayPal will likely side with the buyer in this case, as others have mentioned.  :-/  If you invoiced and sold as "goods", then PayPal will be looking for proof of goods sent to the buyer.  This is the same reason it's often recommended for GB runners to invoice buyers for "services" rather than "goods", as most group buys (even those run effectively) will exceed the usual chargeback time period. 

Also, just as a note to others (I know it's too late for this case), it's always best to let the GB organizer refund your initial payment and charge the new person independently.  Obviously if the organizer is non-responsive this will be hard, but in that case everyone is entering into a sketchy situation anyway so it's never clean and easy. 

[mniels]

Unfortunately you're ****ed unless you can deliver the keyboard. You can't sell a "spot", or moreso PayPal won't understand this.

Best chance is to provide as much proof on your behalf and hope for the best. PP is notorious for siding with the buyer in these types of situations so best of luck. Worst case you lose the dispute and have to look at alternate options. Not sure if small claims would be worth it(if in the US), but always an option.

Sadly, PayPal will likely side with the buyer in this case, as others have mentioned.  :-/  If you invoiced and sold as "goods", then PayPal will be looking for proof of goods sent to the buyer.  This is the same reason it's often recommended for GB runners to invoice buyers for "services" rather than "goods", as most group buys (even those run effectively) will exceed the usual chargeback time period. 

Also, just as a note to others (I know it's too late for this case), it's always best to let the GB organizer refund your initial payment and charge the new person independently.  Obviously if the organizer is non-responsive this will be hard, but in that case everyone is entering into a sketchy situation anyway so it's never clean and easy. 

I may have gotten lucky, at least for a little bit.  I just got off the phone with PayPal after trying since Friday, and they have agreed to keep the investigation open (it was supposed to end today.)  The invoice states that what was sold was "E8-V1 Group Buy," I think that might help.  I have reached out to Kuang2 and copied the original organizer to keep them in the loop.

If nothing else, I am a little less stressed at the moment.  And that is an excellent point about using services instead of goods.

I think what really caught me off guard is that this even happened in the first place.  Maybe it is just me, but I never would have gone this route in this situation.

[Puddsy]

This has happened before, when it was more common to sell GB spots.

There's a very high chance you're boned. You knowingly took a big risk by entering a GB, and it didn't pay off. PayPal is normally not sympathetic in these situations.

[daskeybo]

Looks like Vietnamese Group Buys are risky in general.

[xondat]

Looks like Group Buys are risky in general.

FTFY.

[Puddsy]

Looks like Group Buys are risky in general.

FTFY.

Caveat emptor

[mniels]

Looks like Group Buys are risky in general.

FTFY.

Yeah, and I thought I had passed on that risk.  Silly me.

[shadowrealmwarez]

Looks like Group Buys are risky in general.

FTFY.

Yeah, and I thought I had passed on that risk.  Silly me.

Did everything work out with this?

[mniels]

Looks like Group Buys are risky in general.

FTFY.

Yeah, and I thought I had passed on that risk.  Silly me.

Did everything work out with this?

PayPal took the money. Of course now the boards are shipping. I have messaged the runner twice to ship to me but have not heard back. Knowing my luck he is going to ship the board to the guy and I will get screwed twice.


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