GH60 Group Buy (Salvage Mode: Enabled - Update in OP)

[John Fourth]

Thanks!

[billnye]

Based Marvin :]

[ApocalypseMaow]

Yikes... Last talk I had was about me doing just the unassembled US orders...

I would love to help out more, but INT orders are looking bleak... Komar has already stated that he has no time for it what so ever...
Not to mention the shipping to get everything over there... Plus you're still left with Canada and South American orders...

I say this now, If some how we get money for all the shipping cost... I'll be happy to do the leg work, but I won't spend another dime on this...

[BunnyLake]

Yikes... Last talk I had was about me doing just the unassembled US orders...

I would love to help out more, but INT orders are looking bleak... Komar has already stated that he has no time for it what so ever...
Not to mention the shipping to get everything over there... Plus you're still left with Canada and South American orders...

I say this now, If some how we get money for all the shipping cost... I'll be happy to do the leg work, but I won't spend another dime on this...

id be happy to chip some money in

however

what we all need to see is this

how much money total was taken

how much money was spent on pcbs
how much was spent on plates
how much was spent on stabs and switches

if costs really did come to more than we paid on each part, im sure myself and many others are happy to pay whats outstanding or more even to get things done

we have just had so much conflicting information, people saying things cost more than we thought, people saying they cost the same or less etc

if the money is gone, thats totally fine, we jsut need to see where it went and why the costs projected were so wrong

as i say, i know im happy to chip in a good sum, ive spoken to a couple others who will put in a good amount of money as well to make this happen

the trouble is, given that people paid money for both shipping as well as building, neither of which have happened yet, its hard to understand how there isnt any money currently in the pot

before people get up in arms, im one of the few people who have been supportive in this thread

this isnt knocking tj, he wasnt the person who did the cost projections etc im sure

i just think we should know exactly what things cost versus what was charged, so we can understand exactly how much money is needed and why

[pix3l_fodder]

Although thats bad news for us Int orders at least its a starting point. The updates are welcome, we just need to keep it rolling, just hope us outside of the US aren't going to have to brunt an unbearable cost as it will likely only be us putting money into the pot.

[Glissant]

How come my order has been removed from the order spreadsheet?

Edit: Seems like I can't even view the spreadsheet most of the time, so who knows. My order was gone the last time I was able to check.

[jdcarpe]

How come my order has been removed from the order spreadsheet?

Edit: Seems like I can't even view the spreadsheet most of the time, so who knows. My order was gone the last time I was able to check.

I can still access the original order response sheet owned by WFD. And I have a backup copy from 6/2013 saved, just in case.

I show you ordered 4 PCBs, 2 ANSI plates, 1x cherry plate stabs 7u, 2x plate mounted cherry stabs 6.25u, 2x cherry pcb stabs 6.25u, 65x browns, 65x mx greens.

[Glissant]

I found this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-lBJlTdauVcQHwEUY45BxDDy-QEKVCBu0oDNDG_qzRk/edit#gid=0 too, and my order is still there.
The spreadsheet linked in the first post of this thread is acting very weirdly for me for some reason.
Thanks for the confirmation, jdcarpe.

[whiskytango]

@jdcarpe or anyone else that knows: Sometime after the payment deadline, the unpaid orders were made available for other people to pick up. As in my case, some people ended up paying for two orders separately, their original order and the unpaid order they picked up later. Were the orders ever combined or is there a confirmation sheet that shows who picked up what of the unpaid orders? I don't think I have ever seen an order confirmation that shows both of my orders.

Edit: The sheet linked in the OP isn't working right for me either.

[exitfire401]

Yikes... Last talk I had was about me doing just the unassembled US orders...

I would love to help out more, but INT orders are looking bleak... Komar has already stated that he has no time for it what so ever...
Not to mention the shipping to get everything over there... Plus you're still left with Canada and South American orders...

I say this now, If some how we get money for all the shipping cost... I'll be happy to do the leg work, but I won't spend another dime on this...

id be happy to chip some money in

however

what we all need to see is this

how much money total was taken

how much money was spent on pcbs
how much was spent on plates
how much was spent on stabs and switches

if costs really did come to more than we paid on each part, im sure myself and many others are happy to pay whats outstanding or more even to get things done

we have just had so much conflicting information, people saying things cost more than we thought, people saying they cost the same or less etc

if the money is gone, thats totally fine, we jsut need to see where it went and why the costs projected were so wrong

as i say, i know im happy to chip in a good sum, ive spoken to a couple others who will put in a good amount of money as well to make this happen

the trouble is, given that people paid money for both shipping as well as building, neither of which have happened yet, its hard to understand how there isnt any money currently in the pot

before people get up in arms, im one of the few people who have been supportive in this thread

this isnt knocking tj, he wasnt the person who did the cost projections etc im sure

i just think we should know exactly what things cost versus what was charged, so we can understand exactly how much money is needed and why

Hell, and I'm not even in this buy, but once my new job starts, I'm willing to kick some money in to get this **** moving at this point.

[limitz]

By the time all the orders get sent out, the PCB's will be past their expiration date. I can't believe nobody has brought this up yet, and the fact that this isn't a MAJOR concern.

All PCB's have expiration dates on their solderability. They typically have a hydrophilic coating applied to pads, and depending on the finish used, that only lasts for about 1 year on the high end. I work with PCB's quite a bit, and even a board with a quality finish like ENIG, only has a max solderability of about 1 year, before rebaking is necessary to reinduce the hydrophilic action. This time could fall to about only 6 months depending on how the PCB's were stored. This source has more information:

http://www.multicircuits.com/pcb/tech/surface_finishes.html

I have a strong feeling that once the PCB's do get sent out, there will be a lot of frustrated users complaining about how the SMD pads do not seem to retain solder. I don't know the full history of this group buy, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the PCB's should have been shipped standalone without waiting for the stabilizers. I have a strong suspicion that depending on when the PCB's were first made, the time spent waiting for stabilizers will have caused tons of PCB's to go past their solderability time.

Essentially, depending on PCB manufacture time, they could be very well nearing their expiration date. This should be a pressing concern because there are thousands, to tens of thousands of dollars of PCBs hanging in limbo.

[SpAmRaY]

By the time all the orders get sent out, the PCB's will be past their expiration date. I can't believe nobody has brought this up yet, and the fact that this isn't a MAJOR concern.

All PCB's have expiration dates on their solderability. They typically have a hydrophilic coating applied to pads, and depending on the finish used, that only lasts for about 1 year on the high end. I work with PCB's quite a bit, and even a board with a quality finish like ENIG, only has a max solderability of about 1 year, before rebaking is necessary to reinduce the hydrophilic action. This source has more information:

http://www.multicircuits.com/pcb/tech/surface_finishes.html

I have a strong feeling that once the PCB's do get sent out, there will be a lot of frustrated users complaining about how the SMD pads do not seem to retain solder. I don't know the full history of this group buy, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the PCB's should have been shipped standalone without waiting for the stabilizers. I have a strong suspicion that depending on when the PCB's were first made, the time spent waiting for stabilizers will have caused tons of PCB's to go past their solderability time.

Yikes, I've got quite a few projects that could be affected if this is the case. I've got at least a dozen PCB's that are probably over a year old that I never did anything with.

[nubbinator]

I think most people did not chose the option to do their own SMD soldering and to have it factory done.

[limitz]

By the time all the orders get sent out, the PCB's will be past their expiration date. I can't believe nobody has brought this up yet, and the fact that this isn't a MAJOR concern.

All PCB's have expiration dates on their solderability. They typically have a hydrophilic coating applied to pads, and depending on the finish used, that only lasts for about 1 year on the high end. I work with PCB's quite a bit, and even a board with a quality finish like ENIG, only has a max solderability of about 1 year, before rebaking is necessary to reinduce the hydrophilic action. This source has more information:

http://www.multicircuits.com/pcb/tech/surface_finishes.html

I have a strong feeling that once the PCB's do get sent out, there will be a lot of frustrated users complaining about how the SMD pads do not seem to retain solder. I don't know the full history of this group buy, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the PCB's should have been shipped standalone without waiting for the stabilizers. I have a strong suspicion that depending on when the PCB's were first made, the time spent waiting for stabilizers will have caused tons of PCB's to go past their solderability time.

Yikes, I've got quite a few projects that could be affected if this is the case. I've got at least a dozen PCB's that are probably over a year old that I never did anything with.

Yes, this is a major concern in industry. This article specifically discusses poor wetting on PCB pads:

http://www.epectec.com/pcb/defects/poor_lead_wetting.html

Note this quote:

"Poor solderability of the pins can be caused by poor or thin plating or long storage times"

There are numerous variables that influence pad solderability, including surface finish thickness, humidity, and many other variables. However, almost everyone in the industry in agreement that no matter what the surface finish, there is absolutely a finite shelf-life on PCB boards, where they *need* to be soldered before their time is up.

Fortunately, for those who are invested enough, there are ways to reinduce solderability. I mentioned rebaking in my first post, which is doable. More information is here:

http://www.circuitnet.com/experts/84214.shtml

However, I've never done this, and I would assume some form of reflow oven is necessary to maintain temperature within certain bounds.

[limitz]

I think most people did not chose the option to do their own SMD soldering and to have it factory done.

It's typically a concern on SMD pads more, but through hole pins will be affected as well.

In the link I posted, there are specifically examples of poor solder wetting on through hole pins, as the pin has lost its hydrophilic nature.

[BunnyLake]

Yikes... Last talk I had was about me doing just the unassembled US orders...

I would love to help out more, but INT orders are looking bleak... Komar has already stated that he has no time for it what so ever...
Not to mention the shipping to get everything over there... Plus you're still left with Canada and South American orders...

I say this now, If some how we get money for all the shipping cost... I'll be happy to do the leg work, but I won't spend another dime on this...

i just wanna address this post

id be almost more angry if what you say is correct, than if nothing happened at all

we didnt pay for this gb regionally, we all paid for it

whether there is enough money left in the pot or not, doesnt affect who does and does not get the shaft

if costs ran high on this gb, then it runs equally high for everyone, but if there is money to ship conus orders, than part of that money, belongs to international buyers

that money isnt a communal pot, for people to dip in as they please

for simple math

if there are 100 orders, and 50 are conus and 50 are international

and we overspent on the buy, and say all we are left with to spend is 500 dollars

then 5 dollars of that money, belongs to each buyer, not the gb, 250 of that money would be international

what im getting at is this, making a statement suggesting the outlook is bleak for international people is bull****

a percentage of any money that is left belongs to international buyers, we shouldnt have to come up and fund our shipping when conus people dont simply because someone decides they gonna gonna give all the remaining funds to ship conus

im not asking for any special treatment, what im saying is this, any money left to finish this buy, is all of ours, as a group, and any money we are missing to complete this buy, is again ours, as a group

dont get me wrong, its great to see some potential progress, but it is disgusting to say that there is money to ship some conus orders, and not money to ship international, we all paid our money, we all paid it in to one pot, and a percentage of all of that money is all of ours

the way to go about this isnt to play favourites, or ship an order here and an order there at somebodies choosing

we need to sit down and be honest

if we dont have enough money, lets see the numbers, work out why, and work out how much is needed to COMPLETE this buy, and then work from there

im more than happy to donate a couple of grand to this and get it going, but we need to know why and what towards

this isnt to do with blame or ****ting on people, just to find a solution that is FAIR to everyone

and komar being busy isnt the issue, matteo has agreed both publicly and privately to take over international shipping

[Glissant]

Wait a minute.. Are the organizers saying that there's not enough money for shipping because the buy ended up costing more than anticipated?
Weren't most of the parts paid for over a year ago (if not longer)? Why weren't we approached when the buy ended up costing more then?
What ended up costing more and why? How much more? How much is left of the money?
Why aren't you all outraged at the fact that we've been kept in the dark about something as important as money to be able to ship the parts to the buyers?

This is so incredibly suspect that I don't even know what else to say.

[pix3l_fodder]

Well said, and at this point there is not enough transparency to move the buy forward in that regard. I do hope TJ lays out the options but I fear he has used up his post quota in this thread for this month!

[nubbinator]

Bunny, I think the issue is that he only agreed to handle a subset of stuff within the US and maybe handle all the shipping within the US, not take over everything.  He's saying that he can handle that, but he has no clue how the international orders will be handled since he can't take them on.

I do agree with you completely that the shipping cost should be distributed evenly, however I disagree on the method you proposed.  While more difficult, it would be better to distribute the shipping cost as a fraction of the originally paid amount.  So, for example, if there's only $900 left for shipping and 100 international and 100 US parts to ship where US shipping was billed at $10 and international at $20, US orders should be credited $3 and international $6..  It's still not fair, but more fair than splitting the amount evenly.

Like has been said, before I'd even consider giving any additional money, I'd want an accounting of the costs or for a pair of trustworthy members to be given an accounting of the costs and corroborate it.

[whiskytango]

I do agree with you completely that the shipping cost should be distributed evenly, however I disagree on the method you proposed.  While more difficult, it would be better to distribute the shipping cost as a fraction of the originally paid amount.  So, for example, if there's only $900 left for shipping and 100 international and 100 US parts to ship where US shipping was billed at $10 and international at $20, US orders should be credited $3 and international $6..  It's still not fair, but more fair than splitting the amount evenly.

Nubbs, this was my first reaction as well to what Bunny said. But after giving it some thought, I think it depends on why the costs increased. If the increase was due to an increase in international shipping, then maybe you have a valid point. However, if there's not enough money now because the actual production costs were higher, then that's something we should all share equally. Or something that we should share based on out orders. I.e., if plates costs more than budgeted, then the cost of each plate increases, on so on. Not trying to get in the middle of anything, just my $0.02 on making it as fair as possible.

If there's a lack of money, it might not all be attributed to increased shipping costs, but it affects shipping most since that's the last thing to be paid for. Doesn't mean that it should necessarily cost international buyers more simply because their shipping was higher to begin with. Unless international shipping was the only cost that increased, which I don't think is the case.

[BunnyLake]

Bunny, I think the issue is that he only agreed to handle a subset of stuff within the US and maybe handle all the shipping within the US, not take over everything.  He's saying that he can handle that, but he has no clue how the international orders will be handled since he can't take them on.

I do agree with you completely that the shipping cost should be distributed evenly, however I disagree on the method you proposed.  While more difficult, it would be better to distribute the shipping cost as a fraction of the originally paid amount.  So, for example, if there's only $900 left for shipping and 100 international and 100 US parts to ship where US shipping was billed at $10 and international at $20, US orders should be credited $3 and international $6..  It's still not fair, but more fair than splitting the amount evenly.

Like has been said, before I'd even consider giving any additional money, I'd want an accounting of the costs or for a pair of trustworthy members to be given an accounting of the costs and corroborate it.

sorry ill be more clear

because i basically agree with what you are saying

the numbers i gave, were purely to keep things simple as an example

if i was being more clear, if anything, international people im sure have a higher percentage of the pot like you stated

what i was really getting at is, whatever is left, big or small, each person in this buy owns a part of it, it isnt the gbs money, it is that persons money, and it isnt anyones right, to pick and choose where that money goes

i just wanted to say that ill be disgusted if some people's shipping (as was mentioned, the conus non build orders) get shipped, and then later we are told they are out of money

if money is missing, there is an amount that should be offset, some people will be willing to pay it, some people wont, and some people will be willing to pay more to over people that cant or wont front any money, but that is each persons choice, that decision shouldnt be made for us when it is our money

[tjweir]

I have donated the $50 (assembly x 2).

Here's to hoping this actually happens.

[Index]

I've been waiting patiently, but with the recent update about shipping I'm breaking my silence.

So you're telling me that after 2+ years the following may be true?:

1) I may not be getting my order.
2) My order might be defective.

[guilleguillaume]

I haven't read this forum for almost 2 years nor I did log in after a lot of things happened here back in 2013.

I was wondering about what happend to this GB? I was thinking my money was lost in someone's pockets already.

[nebo]

I've been waiting patiently, but with the recent update about shipping I'm breaking my silence.

So you're telling me that after 2+ years the following may be true?:

1) I may not be getting my order.
2) My order might be defective.

I can only laugh at this point. I can at least salvage the switches. Just give those to me at least.

[pix3l_fodder]

Well I will run with it until all hope is lost, along with my confidence in group buys here. I might go buy a NerD 60% to save the pain!

[Matt3o]

Okay to sum up:

- available GB funds have not been disclosed, but...
- ... it seems clear there's no money left to ship internationally
- US orders will be handed to ApocalypseMaow who will ship to CONUS
- so (if I get it right) US orders will be delivered at no additional cost using what is left of the GB money
- Komar signed off regarding EU orders
- others volunteered (myself included) to take over EU orders and contribute financially
- all is asked to proceed before injecting more money in a black-hole is to know how much is left in the GB account and how money has been spent
- the fate of Canadian/South American/Asian orders is uncertain
- it seems that PCBs have a solderability due date which is long past by now, so it is also uncertain if you could actually use those PCBs even if you get them. The problem (AFAIU) is only with SMD components. Pass through components should still work.

thanks for traveling with GH60 International, please check for your personal belongings before leaving the forum.

[nubbinator]

Okay to sum up:

- available GB funds have not been disclosed, but...
- ... it seems clear there's no money left to ship internationally
- US orders will be handed to ApocalypseMaow who will ship to CONUS
- so (if I get it right) US orders will be delivered at no additional cost using what is left of the GB money
- Komar signed off regarding EU orders
- others volunteered (myself included) to take over EU orders and contribute financially
- all is asked to proceed before injecting more money in a black-hole is to know how much is left in the GB account and how money has been spent
- the fate of Canadian/South American/Asian orders is uncertain
- it seems that PCBs have a solderability due date which is long past by now, so it is also uncertain if you could actually use those PCBs even if you get them. The problem (AFAIU) is only with SMD components. Pass through components should still work.

thanks for traveling with GH60 International, please check for your personal belongings before leaving the forum.

TL;DR version:

More

[domoaligato]

Has it been ~1000 days since the pcb's were manufactured and shipped to TJ? isn't that about the average duration before solderability becomes a issue?


Edit: at this point I don't even want the pcb's anyway's.
I want the switches,stabs,plates I paid for.

[TDub]

And I though it was a good idea to get some extra pcbs, just for the fun of building keyboards..... 

[limitz]

Has it been ~1000 days since the pcb's were manufactured and shipped to TJ? isn't that about the average duration before solderability becomes a issue?


Edit: at this point I don't even want the pcb's anyway's.
I want the switches,stabs,plates I paid for.

I posted a few links up top. It's nowhere near 1000 days.

ENIG, one of the highest quality finishes available, has a shelf-life of about 1 year.

- it seems that PCBs have a solderability due date which is long past by now, so it is also uncertain if you could actually use those PCBs even if you get them. The problem (AFAIU) is only with SMD components. Pass through components should still work.

thanks for traveling with GH60 International, please check for your personal belongings before leaving the forum.

Pass through is affected as well.

The 2nd link I posted has several examples of soldering defects on pass-through pins due to poor solderability. The solder doesn't wet the entire annular circle, and has other related defects with complete pin contact.

Posting again: http://www.epectec.com/pcb/defects/poor_lead_wetting.html

[Matt3o]

not to be "that guy" but I have PCBs like 30 years old that I'm still able to solder pass through components on. I agree lead doesn't stick so easily, but still feasible.

[limitz]

Oh I'm sure you'll be able to get the solder through the hole. Throw enough solder and heat at the situation and it'll flow through.

The issue is reliability after 1, 2 , 3 years down the road. When people start getting switches not working, cold solder joints, ghost key presses, repeated key presses, and other defects. These are the main issues I'd say related to poor solderability on through hole pins.

Even the link I posted showed solder flowed through all the through hole pins, but in each instance, there were issues with sticking, as well as incomplete coverage.

[tjweir]

Okay to sum up:

- the fate of Canadian/South American/Asian orders is uncertain

Ummmmmm, why?

[kravlin]

Ok. Is the deal with Canadian/South American/Asian orders just getting parts out there?

How many orders we talking to each?

[jdcarpe]

As someone who was involved with organizing this GB, but who is no longer involved, I will say this. I think everyone's order is in the same boat, so to speak, and no orders have higher or lower priority at this point.

Unless TJ states otherwise, I think we may assume that all the GB funds are gone, and thus every participant shares the same fate with regard to assembly and shipping. If this is the case, then people who ordered assembly service will most likely not be getting that service, unless there is someone who will donate their time to assemble those orders at no cost.

[BunnyLake]

As someone who was involved with organizing this GB, but who is no longer involved, I will say this. I think everyone's order is in the same boat, so to speak, and no orders have higher or lower priority at this point.

Unless TJ states otherwise, I think we may assume that all the GB funds are gone, and thus every participant shares the same fate with regard to assembly and shipping. If this is the case, then people who ordered assembly service will most likely not be getting that service, unless there is someone who will donate their time to assemble those orders at no cost.

i have absolutely no problem with this, if this is the case, i doubt many people would mind either paying shipping again, or even assembly

but the fact is, we have paid for both shipping and assembly already, and i think before anyone is asked or volunteers to forward any money

we should be shown the costs of each part, so we know what cost more and where the money went

prices change, especially when there are delays, i doubt many people would have any issue with that, but we know what prices were charged, so if we were shown the invoices and final pricing per part (including there shipping form wherever it was from) then itll be very obvious and transparent where those additional funds went and why we are in this situation

the trouble is right now we are being given different reasons, one is that people dont have enough time (people have also volunteered there time to this to solve the issue)

then that there is little to no money left( this is something we can solve as a community im sure)

but with services like shipping and assembly, which have been billed but not fulfilled, there should be a good amount of money left, so i think its totally reasonable to see exactly why those funds were used and what for without it being mentioned to us

[HoffmanMyster]

but with services like shipping and assembly, which have been billed but not fulfilled, there should be a good amount of money left, so i think its totally reasonable to see exactly why those funds were used and what for without it being mentioned to us

My guess would be that a large portion went toward the production of plates.  We had to use a different supplier than initially quoted (ApocalypseMaow's local place produced them), which I'm sure added some costs.

You're absolutely right though, those details (rather than my speculation ) would be great to know.

[nubbinator]

but with services like shipping and assembly, which have been billed but not fulfilled, there should be a good amount of money left, so i think its totally reasonable to see exactly why those funds were used and what for without it being mentioned to us

Exactly this.  I'd be willing to assemble 10-15 boards for free (as long as shipping is paid to and from me), but I'd like to know where the money went first.

[Hzza]

As long as it's just soldering switches, I don't mind picking up some assembly orders either.

[GeorgeK]

but the fact is, we have paid for both shipping and assembly already, and i think before anyone is asked or volunteers to forward any money we should be shown the costs of each part, so we know what cost more and where the money went

This exactly - if the money is all gone despite us having paid it all then I'd be very interested in where it has gone.  I paid $21 for shipping and I imagine that everyone has paid a similar amount on average (some more, some less) - multiply that up by 100 orders and that's $2000 that's just 'gone'?  Add onto that the assembly costs at $25 a pop, albeit for not that many orders, and that's getting on for $2.5k that's just unaccounted for???  At this point I would pay the $21 again to actually, finally get what I am owed but not if that means that someone gets to line their pockets with thousands of dollars.

[maxmalkav]

We can keep on talking about how to proceed to solve this situation, but until the people in charge don't give detailed explanations of the status of things, we can only propose solutions based on hypothesis. I have run some small group buys myself and I know how many unexpected costs may show up, but I think transparency it is the only way to go and  correspond the trust  people are putting on you. Really, it is way better to be clear and not try to hide what went wrong, it only delays a possible solution.

[Glissant]

lol.

[fknraiden]

Assembly orders will be done pro-bono by other users here including myself if it comes to it. I dont think that is the issue at the moment. IMHO The first thing that needs to happen is have a complete itemized cost of all parts. Whether that is privately or publicly disclosed, it needs to be dealt with before any more money is given to cover whatever costs we are being told is delaying completion.

[Matt3o]

lol.

it's the period that makes it.

[ApocalypseMaow]

but with services like shipping and assembly, which have been billed but not fulfilled, there should be a good amount of money left, so i think its totally reasonable to see exactly why those funds were used and what for without it being mentioned to us

My guess would be that a large portion went toward the production of plates.  We had to use a different supplier than initially quoted (ApocalypseMaow's local place produced them), which I'm sure added some costs.

You're absolutely right though, those details (rather than my speculation ) would be great to know.

Nah, the price we paid was lower then the quote WFD got... At least that's how I remember it...

[SpAmRaY]

but with services like shipping and assembly, which have been billed but not fulfilled, there should be a good amount of money left, so i think its totally reasonable to see exactly why those funds were used and what for without it being mentioned to us

My guess would be that a large portion went toward the production of plates.  We had to use a different supplier than initially quoted (ApocalypseMaow's local place produced them), which I'm sure added some costs.

You're absolutely right though, those details (rather than my speculation ) would be great to know.

Nah, the price we paid was lower then the quote WFD got... At least that's how I remember it...

That doesn't match what was said previously here...

Lost over 3K on Jackass's group buy and spent 600 on this one, what's wrong with people these days. Who's in charge of this group buy anyway? Is WFD still around?

No, he's not.  Put that as point one on the many point list on why this was a cluster****.

I'm talking privately to a couple people about taking over. 

The idea of profit from this is news to me as the furthest I was involved in pricing was being told by wfd what to charge.

And then it took a year to order PCBs.  They cost significantly more than expected.

Then, apocalypsemaow found another plate source.  They cost significantly more than expected.

Stabs?  I paid what I charged for half of them.  The other half? Cost more than I even charged for them. 

Shipping prices have changed, too, and not for the better.  On top of the shipping parts needed that weren't included in the cost of shipping per order. 

So yeah, wfd may have had profit worked in when he told me what to charge, but that's a boat that's long sailed away for me.

I'm sorry this isn't your perfect answer, nubbs and I'm sure you'll see it as lashing out but it's what I have, just like every other answer I had was what I had at the time.

[BunnyLake]

but with services like shipping and assembly, which have been billed but not fulfilled, there should be a good amount of money left, so i think its totally reasonable to see exactly why those funds were used and what for without it being mentioned to us

My guess would be that a large portion went toward the production of plates.  We had to use a different supplier than initially quoted (ApocalypseMaow's local place produced them), which I'm sure added some costs.

You're absolutely right though, those details (rather than my speculation ) would be great to know.

Nah, the price we paid was lower then the quote WFD got... At least that's how I remember it...

its my understanding that this is true from people i spoke to in the know at the time

it strikes me as odd that we would have just paid a bunch extra for plates without looking in to other quotes or mentioning it at the time

[Matt3o]

can we just have the final PCB design and run a new GB?

[jdcarpe]

can we just have the final PCB design and run a new GB?

I asked komar about that several months ago. I think it would be a good idea.