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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: aogail on Fri, 16 December 2011, 13:55:06

Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: aogail on Fri, 16 December 2011, 13:55:06
In the day or so I have been using my TE keyboard (104 with blues), I have noticed one functional issue. The right arrow key does not register about a third of the time. In rarer cases, it will register twice for one press. I have sent a message to TE about it, but no response yet -- it'll be a while if history is any indication ;)

Has anyone else encountered any functional issues with their TE keyboard?
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Gerk on Fri, 16 December 2011, 14:19:20
Nothing here so far in that regard.  But ... I have the model 109 and 3 out of 4 of the blank keys and the left space bar (when selecting to split the space bars) don't register any keycodes when pressing them in OSX.  Might be PEBKAC at this point, not sure.  I will wait a bit for things to settle with the TE folks and email them with some questions ... but for now I'm not seeing the issues you're having, all keys (that I get keycodes for) are working perfectly here.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Draconian on Fri, 16 December 2011, 15:29:15
I think I'm getting some doubled-keypresses too. I've certainly noticed several repeated "t" characters, but when try to reproduce the sequence it registers correctly. I guess this is one of the risks in bleeding-edge technology?
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Sat, 17 December 2011, 05:20:27
So far I've not experienced any missed or double characters (105 brown here). Same issue with left spacebar (when mapped to "alternate") as Gerk, but I guess that's more of an OS X issue.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Gerk on Sat, 17 December 2011, 12:15:05
Quote from: boli;472689
So far I've not experienced any missed or double characters (105 brown here). Same issue with left spacebar (when mapped to "alternate") as Gerk, but I guess that's more of an OS X issue.

Yep I think it is something specific to OSX as a Linux user reported that they are getting keycodes from the left space bar when it's set to alternate.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Architect on Tue, 20 December 2011, 07:35:56
Haven't seen that. I did another thread about a wake from sleep issue I'm having.

Otherwise ... I just found out that on the 109 the extra keys apparently aren't sending any key events when pressed? I'm using KeyDump and pressing the keys on the lower right and left hand of the keyboard don't register anything. Firmware probably, but if true how did they expect this to be used? The pain continues ...
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Tue, 20 December 2011, 08:13:52
Quote from: Architect;474327
I just found out that on the 109 the extra keys apparently aren't sending any key events when pressed? I'm using KeyDump and pressing the keys on the lower right and left hand of the keyboard don't register anything. Firmware probably, but if true how did they expect this to be used?

Most likely a stupid question, but my 105's DIP switch was set to 104 mode, rather than 105/109 mode. Did you make sure the setting fits your model or set it accordingly?
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Architect on Tue, 20 December 2011, 09:58:52
Quote from: boli;474334
Most likely a stupid question, but my 105's DIP switch was set to 104 mode, rather than 105/109 mode. Did you make sure the setting fits your model or set it accordingly?

They were all set to the default position. I set it up to 109, but all that seems to do is to remove the Del key in place of International 1, whatever that is. I'll just wait until the SDK so I can set it up the way I want.

The manual sure clarifies a lot of questions I had before, I didn't know that I also have a left control and right option up there.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Wed, 21 December 2011, 02:45:31
Quote from: Architect;474402
I set it up to 109, but all that seems to do is to remove the Del key in place of International 1

Right, International-1 is a key we have on swiss keyboards: §±

Maybe it's an OS thing, dunno. Hopefully they'll release their software soon (but I'm not holding my breath).
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: aogail on Tue, 24 January 2012, 15:58:39
It appears that my problems have disappeared. I don't know when it happened, really; just that I was going through some code last week (I am a software engineer) and realized that the right arrow wasn't missing a beat. The 'a' key has stopped doubling, too. Neither has recurred since then. My guess is that I got a couple switches that needed a break-in.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Wed, 08 February 2012, 22:16:42
I've seen a whole bunch of double keypresses. I found that my enter key was missing a bunch of keypresses but this is OK now... hopefully the double-keypress issue goes away too. We'll see. I may just end up returning this keyboard (or selling it)...

Did anyone else see progress on the double-keypress issue? Is the general consensus that it goes away after a while?
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: kuato on Wed, 08 February 2012, 23:03:42
Quote from: heuristicist;509800
I've seen a whole bunch of double keypresses. I found that my enter key was missing a bunch of keypresses but this is OK now... hopefully the double-keypress issue goes away too. We'll see. I may just end up returning this keyboard (or selling it)...

Did anyone else see progress on the double-keypress issue? Is the general consensus that it goes away after a while?


That's unfortunate :(

I've run this on my Windows and OSX machine and so far have not noticed this issue on either machine.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Thu, 09 February 2012, 01:45:34
Quote from: heuristicist;509800
I've seen a whole bunch of double keypresses. I found that my enter key was missing a bunch of keypresses but this is OK now... hopefully the double-keypress issue goes away too. We'll see. I may just end up returning this keyboard (or selling it)...

Did anyone else see progress on the double-keypress issue? Is the general consensus that it goes away after a while?

Haven't noticed anything like this during my rather limited testing (105 browns on OS X). Will test more soon and update.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: PetriW on Thu, 09 February 2012, 03:39:11
Quote from: heuristicist;509800
Did anyone else see progress on the double-keypress issue? Is the general consensus that it goes away after a while?
Yes I had this issue but it seemed to be due to me having a custom keyboard dll created with MKLC. Once I switched to a normal dll and AutoHotKey it went away.
It could be that it's the same as what others have though and it went away on its own.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Thu, 09 February 2012, 22:34:25
I'm in Linux, and have seem this problem whether in plain TTY or else in a DE, accross multiple distros (mostly live environments). So far it hasn't really gone away---maybe some reductions but it's too random to tell. I'm getting a lot of double-spaces, double-down-arrows, double-ts, and now I'm also seeing backspace show up randomly! So some character I typed gets spontaneously wiped!

Ugh, I think I could like this keyboard but this problem is making it unusable. Too bad the company doesn't know how to conduct a business...
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Boerta on Fri, 10 February 2012, 09:24:39
I got my TE board yesterday, and I haven't noticed any problems yet, for what it's worth.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: biochem on Fri, 10 February 2012, 10:06:38
Quote from: aogail;472282
In the day or so I have been using my TE keyboard (104 with blues), I have noticed one functional issue. The right arrow key does not register about a third of the time. In rarer cases, it will register twice for one press. I have sent a message to TE about it, but no response yet -- it'll be a while if history is any indication ;)

Has anyone else encountered any functional issues with their TE keyboard?

I got my TE keyboard on Monday (also 104 with blues). The X and Down-Arrow keys have the same intermittent problem where they do not register ~1/3 of the keystrokes. The V key misses about one out of ten keystrokes.

I put in a RMA request Thursday evening. Hopefully this won't be a big hassle.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Fri, 10 February 2012, 11:11:21
Have been using my TE at work since noon yesterday, no missed key presses so far (however the keyboard didn't work 4 out of 5 times after restarting my computer; had to replug it).
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Fri, 10 February 2012, 13:25:46
Quote from: biochem;511000
I put in a RMA request Thursday evening. Hopefully this won't be a big hassle.

Please keep us (or at least me ;p) updated on how that goes. I sent them an email and if I don't hear back soon I am also going to submit an RMA. I haven't yet decided if I want to take a risk on another one (maybe going with a 109/browns this time rather than the 104/blues) or just buy some crappy keyboard to hold me over until the ErgoDox's completion.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: biochem on Fri, 10 February 2012, 22:49:42
It is now Friday evening and I didn't get any email from TE about the RMA. I'm going to give them 2 more business days to respond before I tell PayPal that I want me money back.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Sat, 11 February 2012, 22:28:28
Quote from: biochem;511483
It is now Friday evening and I didn't get any email from TE about the RMA. I'm going to give them 2 more business days to respond before I tell PayPal that I want me money back.

You've *definitely* got to keep us up-to-date on that one!

BTW, I wonder if the 104/blue line is the problem. Not to say all are bad, but I haven't heard someone with 105/109 or 104/brown say anything about it yet... Then again this is problem my human brain doing what it does best: find patterns in patternless data.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: zombieball on Mon, 13 February 2012, 22:46:22
Quote from: heuristicist;512224
You've *definitely* got to keep us up-to-date on that one!

BTW, I wonder if the 104/blue line is the problem. Not to say all are bad, but I haven't heard someone with 105/109 or 104/brown say anything about it yet... Then again this is problem my human brain doing what it does best: find patterns in patternless data.

Hi guys,

I thought I would pipe in about my experiences so far.  I purchased a 104/blue and experienced issues with key presses not registering or registering twice.  This could certainly be an issue with the 104/blue line. For an idea about the rate at which my problems occurred I repeatedly typed my name and posted the results here: https://gist.github.com/1727786.  

I contacted TE and I asked if my problems were due to a firmware issue that could be fixed by flashing a new firmware or if there was a unique hardware issue that warranted my keyboard being replaced.  They gave me a long winded email describing troubleshooting steps such as ensuring it is not an OS / driver issue (tried the keyboard in Windows + OSX and encountered the same problems), gave me a link to a silly little troubleshooting app that lights up keys on a virtual keyboard when they are pressed (I imagine just to ensure there are no dead keys), and instructed me to ensure I had a good USB connection, etc.   1 or 2 days after telling them none of these steps solved my problem they instructed me to fill out an RMA and return the keyboard.  I shipped it back via Canadapost Express COD on Weds. Feb 8th.  I received my replacement keyboard today, Mon. Feb. 13th.  I have only used the keyboard briefly, but unfortunately it seems the problem still persists.  The problem is not as bad as it was with my previous keyboard (double key presses registering about 1/2 of the rate they used to) but it is still present.  I will use the keyboard a bit more this week and post back as to if the issue goes away.  However, in my opinion I feel like the problem is due to poor firmware (lousy software key de-bouncing perhaps?) and not hardware, so I don't imagine repeated use of the keyboard will solve the problem.

I do have a tip for anyone trying to contact Truly Ergonomic.  As many of you who have tried contacting them are probably well aware of almost all their email addresses seem to go to a general inbox that probably gets checked once in a blue moon and responds with a frustrating auto-reply.  Instead I took a shot in the dark and looked up their admin contact email registered with their domain (e.g. http://whois.domaintools.com/trulyergonomic.com).  They seem to have registered their domain using a private domain name registration service (whoisproof) but it lists an email address that promisses to forward all messages to Truly Ergonomics.  Hoping I would get through to a different inbox I have CC'd this address on all my contacts with TE.  Not sure if that is what eventually got their attention or not but its worth a shot.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Tue, 14 February 2012, 07:07:45
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I currently I can't find any reference to blue or red switches on the TE homepage. If I'm not being an idiot I doubt this is coincidence.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Himatin on Tue, 14 February 2012, 07:21:17
I noticed the same. But is it really possible, that it has to do with this issue?
How can the internal mechanics of the keyswitches trigger this kind of behaviour? Shouldn't they be interchangable?
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Tue, 14 February 2012, 08:34:47
Quote from: boli;514031
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I currently I can't find any reference to blue or red switches on the TE homepage. If I'm not being an idiot I doubt this is coincidence.

Interesting! Looks like only browns now. I do remember seeing that a bunch of the keyboards were backordered.

Quote from: Himatin;514035
I noticed the same. But is it really possible, that it has to do with this issue?
How can the internal mechanics of the keyswitches trigger this kind of behaviour? Shouldn't they be interchangable?

That's what I thought! But it's always possible they got/used a bad batch of blues.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: biochem on Wed, 15 February 2012, 08:49:22
I followed up my Feb 9 request for an RMA with an email on Feb 13 but still got no response. I just opened up a PayPal claim against them. We'll see if this gets a response from TE.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: biochem on Wed, 15 February 2012, 19:39:36
The PayPal claim prompted a quick response from TE. It's unfortunate that I had to resort to that to get them to respond. In any case, they will pay to have me ship the keyboard back to them and I can get a replacement or a refund. I am satisfied with this resolution.

In the email they said:
Quote
[SIZE=-1]We have spent several days researching this issue, and  we have concluded that the problem you are having in regard to the  key(s) that appear to malfunction lies within faulty keyswitches. This  issue is neither the keyboard's electronics nor the firmware itself.[/SIZE]
As suggested earlier in this thread, it appears that they may have had a bad batch of blue switches.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Thu, 16 February 2012, 00:47:15
I just got the same email. I submitted an RMA yesterday but no PayPal claim yet. I'm probably going to ask them to send me browns instead, since a) I'd like to avoid more trouble and b) I haven't tried browns before. I had tried blues and blacks before this, and was pretty sure I didn't like linear keyswitches, and didn't really mind the noise of the blues, but I should probably give browns a go sometime too, and this might be the right opportunity.
Title: Got the Blues
Post by: djcybermyth on Thu, 16 February 2012, 09:50:43
Quote from: heuristicist;515883
I just got the same email. I submitted an RMA yesterday but no PayPal claim yet. I'm probably going to ask them to send me browns instead, since a) I'd like to avoid more trouble and b) I haven't tried browns before. I had tried blues and blacks before this, and was pretty sure I didn't like linear keyswitches, and didn't really mind the noise of the blues, but I should probably give browns a go sometime too, and this might be the right opportunity.


My friend and I both ordered 104 blues which have shown to have the chattering key problem and both received this same RMA email today.  It seems that they are having a massive blue switch problems since they are no longer offering blues on the website, and from what I can tell, only people with blues seem to be experiencing problems.  Anyone else agree?

I really like the feel / sound of the blues, but in the interest of getting a keyboard that works, I'm going to see if I can get browns via exchange.

I'll let you know how it goes for both my friend and I.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sordna on Thu, 16 February 2012, 13:13:44
Anyone with 109 / blues ? I wonder if this problem affects the 109 keyboard as well, or just the 104/105.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: PetriW on Mon, 20 February 2012, 03:18:49
Quote from: sordna;516219
Anyone with 109 / blues ? I wonder if this problem affects the 109 keyboard as well, or just the 104/105.
I had this problem with both my 109 blues.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sordna on Tue, 21 February 2012, 13:00:46
Thanks! Hmm, I wonder if blue switches need some particular handling by a keyboard's firmware, or if indeed TE got a bad batch of blue switches that don't make good contact.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: nomaded on Wed, 22 February 2012, 11:55:32
That's too bad about the Blues. I am glad I got a 109 with the Browns. I'm quite satisfied by the feel of the Browns, and I do find that they are still pretty clacky sounding, but not overly so. I'm using mine in a cube farm, so I think the Blues would have been too loud.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: djcybermyth on Wed, 22 February 2012, 12:18:48
So does anyone know if TE is replacing the blue RMAs with refurbished blues or swapping them with browns?  I have come to like the feel of the blues and am not sure if I really want to give that up.

Also, the chattering with the "b" key seems to have gone away, so the only problems that remain are with the left and right arrow keys.

What to do...
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: oneproduct on Wed, 22 February 2012, 20:45:57
Was there a problem with the reds at all? They took those off their site as well but I don't think I've seen someone talk about this problem with reds. That was the switch type I was interested in getting.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: djcybermyth on Wed, 22 February 2012, 23:15:47
I just saw that they are offering the reds again on their website (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=62).

Also, my roommate just got a 104 with browns and I'm typing on it right now.  There seems to be zero key problems.  But I forgot just how strong the fumes are from this thing for the first week or so :/

This is my first experience with brown switches, and on first impression, I like the blue ones better.  They feel alright, but just don't have that satisfying sound ;)
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: boli on Thu, 23 February 2012, 02:35:50
Quote from: djcybermyth;522674
I just saw that they are offering the reds again on their website (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=62).


Right, nice find. Only the 104 model with legends seems to available with reds though - no 105, 109 or blank versions. Maybe the red version didn't sell well enough to keep offering different models.
Also their Mechanical Keyswitches (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=20_64) info page still only mentions browns.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Sat, 25 February 2012, 02:14:48
Has anyone gone through with sending the keyboard back to them and getting a new one? (And getting them to refund your shipping costs.) I haven't gotten around to it yet, just wondering how it's gone for others...
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: biochem on Wed, 29 February 2012, 19:00:09
I sent my keyboard back to them. It got there yesterday and they issued a refund for the keyboard today. I haven't gotten a refund for the return shipping costs yet, but so far so good.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: treigle on Thu, 01 March 2012, 00:23:19
Quote from: oneproduct
Was there a problem with the reds at all? They took those off their site as well but I don't think I've seen someone talk about this problem with reds. That was the switch type I was interested in getting.


My reds have been fine so far.

The ANSI red page is still up, but I don't know if it's legit, cause it's not linked from the main page, and the price is the same as the browns (used to be $249). This page has been updated since they took reds off their main page, as at that time it still said $249/5 in stock... I couldn't find the other red variant pages after they officially took reds down...

http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=62 (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=62)

If I end up preferring my Kinesis, I may sell my ANSI/red TE, but it'll be at least a month (just got both a week ago), and I rather like the TE so far.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Mon, 26 March 2012, 12:19:16
So as much as this company is not so good for replying to most emails I've had a pretty solid experience with getting my 104/blue TE replaced. Here is what happened for me:

9/2/2012: Sent them an email about the problems with my 104/blue TE.
15/2/2012: Get a reply stating that there is a problem with the keyswitches and an offer to replace the keyboard, including refunding return shipping. This was pretty cool as most places get you to pay the return shipping. They also requested knowing that I let them know which keys had problems, but neither the replacement nor the refund were contingent on that. They just said "We will appreciate if you can let us know..."
9/3/2012: I finally get around to sending them back the keyboard. I am in Toronto and the return shipping cost me $19.15. I scanned the receipt and sent it to them, along with the info on which keys had problems, and also requested that they send me a 104/brown instead of 104/blue just so I can avoid issues (and because I wanted to try the browns out). Within some five-odd (!) hours I got the shipping refund in my PayPal account and an email saying that they will send the replacement 104/brown as soon as they receive the faulty keyboard.
16/3/2012: I send them an email because FedEx was unable to deliver the keyboard on the 15th and the 16th. They reply back within half an hour asking for the tracking number so they can make sure to pick it up. They say that the new keyboard will ship on the 19th. I gave them the tracking number.
19/3/2012: FedEx shows the keyboard as delivered.
20/3/2012: I email them asking about the replacement. Within three hours I get an email with the tracking number.

The point is, while they tend to ignore emails from people who haven't bought a keyboard (which is annoying, I know), I think they handled this replacement beautifully. Just wanted to let people here know!
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Marilla on Thu, 29 March 2012, 13:17:52
I bought a TE keyboard (105) with Cherry MX Blue keyswitches back in February and encountered many of the same problems as here, and I also found the same problems with TE reacting very slowly indeed to e-mails. The situation at the moment is that they've said that they were provided with a faulty batch of Blue keyswitches and so various of the keyboards with these will be faulty (depending, presumably, on which faulty switches went into which keyboard etc.). They say they are now not going to be producing any keyboards with the Blue switches.

Although I was struggling with the uneven functioning of the keys (amongst the worst was the 'E' key, wouldn’t you know), I still found this keyboard to be the best, ergonomically, I've ever tried - and I've tried a load. There's something about not only the layout but also the weight and firmness of the base which makes it feel absolutely right. Coupled with the Cherry Blues, which are my absolute favourites, I determined not to give up on this keyboard.

However I am still negotiating with TE (s-l-o-w-l-y). My main problem is that not only do I want the keyboard as is, but I also want another one because I'm on the keyboard day and night and I can't afford to be without one - and nor can I afford the time lost if I have to change over to one with a different configuration. I also need something that will last and be capable of refurbishment every now and again - because I'm fed up with purchasing another keyboard of the type I've been using only to find that they've changed the layout or something since I last purchased.

So the state of play at the moment is that TE have agreed in principle to my purchasing a second keyboard with the Cherry Blues, before they run out of stock of these keyboards, and I keep the keyboard I have but have the faulty keys replaced (by someone else). In recompense for their supplying a faulty keyboard to me they will supply the second keyboard at half price. However they say that, this transaction concluded, there will be no guarantee for either keyboard.

I have talked to The Keyboard Company (I'm in the UK) and they are confident they can sort out the keyboards. When the second keyboard arrives (just supposing I ever get to the point with TE where it can all be agreed, ordered, shipped...), I am going to send both keyboards to them and - well, pray.

Please keep your fingers and everything else crossed for me, because these keyboards are going to be the most expensive ever (and I've paid for two Maltrons in my time)...

I'll keep everyone posted.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sordna on Thu, 29 March 2012, 22:46:11
Good luck and thanks for sharing your story, very interesting! Yeah, if Kinesis stopped producing the Advantage with my favorite switches (cherry reds) I would do the same as you, stock up on spares even if they came with issues, no warranty, etc. Oh well, maybe the warranty argument is not very convincing in my case:

(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=43077&d=1331189748) (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579)
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Draconian on Thu, 05 April 2012, 06:13:06
I too have the TE 105 International with Cherry MX Blues.

I've also been experiencing repeated keypresses and skipped keypresses of certain keys. Most annoyingly, one of the keys that most often fails to register is the key!

I've received the following email from them after telling them of my keyboard's problems:

Quote
As your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard uses Light-click-sound (Cherry MX Blue) keyswitches, we can mention that during the production of Truly Ergonomic Keyboards with these keyswitches, our manufacturer received a bad batch of these keyswitches that were unfortunately used in some of our keyboards. Hence, yours amongst other keyboards are malfunctioning.


We have researched your keyboard's problem and have concluded that only lies within faulty keyswitches; this is neither the keyboard's electronics nor the firmware itself.

 

We have also further researched the advantages and disadvantages of the Cherry MX Blue keyswitches and have concluded that we will no longer manufacture the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard with these keyswitches. We will only continue manufacturing Truly Ergonomic Keyboards with SILENT (Cherry MX Brown) keyswitches.

 

Hence, we can offer the following options:

 

1.    Replace your keyboard with a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard with SILENT (Cherry MX Brown) keyswitches - English US QWERTY - Model 104 (In Stock).

 

2.    Replace your keyboard with a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard with SILENT (Cherry MX Brown) keyswitches - English Europe or International - Model 105 (In Stock).

 

3.    Replace your keyboard with a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard with SILENT (Cherry MX Brown) keyswitches - English Asia or International - Model 109 when available. (Out of Stock - delivery estimated for mid May 2012). We can provide a partial refund of $50.00 USD should you choose this option for the inconvenience.

 

4.    Replace your keyboard with a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard with SILENT (Cherry MX Brown) keyswitches - Blank Layout - either Model 104-105-109 when available. (Out of Stock - delivery estimated for mid May 2012). We can provide a partial refund of $50.00 USD should you choose this option for the inconvenience.

 

5.    Provide a Full Refund of your purchase after you return this keyboard.

 

Some customers have told us that after pressing the faulty key(s) several times (probably hundreds of times), the keyswitch works normally, but we cannot guarantee this.

 

Another option: If you, or someone you know, are proficient and would like to exchange the faulty keyswitches, you can buy these nearby and we will reimburse you for the trouble by means of a partial refund of $50.00 USD. This is the only option if you want to keep your keyboard with Cherry MX Blue keyswitches.

 

We apologize for this inconvenience.

 

Please take all the time you require to consider the above options and to let us know your decision. We are extending your Money-Back guarantee until this matter is resolved. Please make sure as well you read our Terms & Conditions section before making your decision.

 

Please send us an email should you have any questions or require additional information.


I'm wondering if their suggestion to refer to their T&Cs means that they're going to ask me to pay for the return shipping? After checking the WayBack archive, I can see no mention of International Customers having to pay for return shipping, and certainly not at the time I placed my order. I'm hoping that, if pushed, they'll pay for this.

I love the sound of the Cherry MX Blues, but am wondering if the Browns would suffice. If I opt to get the keyboard repaired here in the UK, I get $50 back. Is this a repair that I could feasibly complete myself? How easy is it to replace the faulty keys?

Any recommendations as to how to proceed?

Thanks

Nick
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Fri, 06 April 2012, 01:09:42
Quote from: Draconian;567495
I too have the TE 105 International with Cherry MX Blues.

I've also been experiencing repeated keypresses and skipped keypresses of certain keys. Most annoyingly, one of the keys that most often fails to register is the key!

I've received the following email from them after telling them of my keyboard's problems:



I'm wondering if their suggestion to refer to their T&Cs means that they're going to ask me to pay for the return shipping? After checking the WayBack archive, I can see no mention of International Customers having to pay for return shipping, and certainly not at the time I placed my order. I'm hoping that, if pushed, they'll pay for this.

I love the sound of the Cherry MX Blues, but am wondering if the Browns would suffice. If I opt to get the keyboard repaired here in the UK, I get $50 back. Is this a repair that I could feasibly complete myself? How easy is it to replace the faulty keys?

Any recommendations as to how to proceed?

Thanks

Nick

In my case (full details in a post above) they offered to pay the return shipping without my even asking for it. If you're trying to decide with blues vs. browns it's a tough question if only because it's so subjective. I had mine replaced with browns and while I haven't had a chance to really use it I sort of get the feeling that the browns don't feel quite as crisp as the blues. (Then again, it could be psychological based on the sound of the blues... who knows.) Doing the repair yourself is unlikely unless you have experience with this kind of thing. I'm not sure how much the blue switches cost but I doubt the $50 would cover it even if you bought a full 104 switches. And then you would have to go to the work of desoldering them and soldering in the new ones.

If you *really* want blues on your TE a self-repair is the only option it seems, and you have no guarantee right now how it'll work out. If you're willing to live with browns then get it replaced. If you'd rather have another keyboard over a TE with browns, then return it. Personally I'd rather have a TE with browns than a regular keyboard so that's the option I took. (The ErgoDox may supplant this though, we'll see.)
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Draconian on Fri, 06 April 2012, 11:04:41
Thanks for your sensible suggestion. I'm leaning towards having it replaced with browns. My question here would be - do the browns still have a nice sound when pressed. I know they're supposed to be silent, but do they actually make a click when pressed, or is that only when they're bottomed out?

Has anyone reading this thread had any luck with their comment:

Quote
Some customers have told us that after pressing the faulty key(s) several times (probably hundreds of times), the keyswitch works normally, but we cannot guarantee this.

I've certainly noticed that the keys misbehave differently on different days. I'm wondering quite how long I'd have to thump all the keys before it behaves normally?

Does anyone have any idea as to what the defects are with this batch of blues. If they might eventually work normally, then it must be a minor defect?
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Fri, 06 April 2012, 21:50:55
Quote from: Draconian;568896
Thanks for your sensible suggestion. I'm leaning towards having it replaced with browns. My question here would be - do the browns still have a nice sound when pressed. I know they're supposed to be silent, but do they actually make a click when pressed, or is that only when they're bottomed out?

No, the browns don't make the same click as the blues. If you press it down super-slowly you won't hear a thing. Press it faster and bottom out and it'll make the typical noise of the keycap bottoming out, and that's about it.

Quote from: Draconian;568896
Has anyone reading this thread had any luck with their comment:



I've certainly noticed that the keys misbehave differently on different days. I'm wondering quite how long I'd have to thump all the keys before it behaves normally?

I did try and mash the keys a lot. I just sat there with my laptop doing other stuff with one hand and just going through groups of four keys at a time pressing them a whole bunch of times with my other hand. I might've seen a key or two get better with this. Doing each key a hundred times sounds like a lot but doesn't take that long as long as you move your fingers quickly. You can certainly try this but I wouldn't get my hopes up. (OTOH you do sound like you *really* want the blues so might as well give it a go.)
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: djcybermyth on Mon, 16 April 2012, 00:50:09
I'm also weighing my options.  I looked on Mouser.com and it seems that the keyswitches are 75 cents or 98 cents depending on which keyswitch is on the keyboard.  I think the more expensive one is the right one, but I haven't fully taken my keyboard apart yet to find out.  There are only two keys that I would replace if I decided to take that option, and even those two are pretty good now.

Back when I emailed TE support the first time and hadn't heard anything back in two weeks or so, I bought another TE 104 with browns so I could have one if I did end up sending the original back and also would have one at home and one at work once this all blew over.  Also, these are my first mechanical keyboards ever, and since I didn't really know the difference between blues and browns, I thought I would try them both out.  I seem to like them both, though I find them to be very different.  The browns are not best described as quiet blues, because the blues have more "wiggle" and actually squeak a bit like an office chair might once it's been around awhile.  The browns don't do that at all.  They feel very tight on the horizontal axis, but also slightly easier to push, though that might be purely psychological.

Since they are so different to me, I really like the idea of repairing the blue one to give them both an extended trial, in case there are future keyboard purchases ;)

Speaking of disassembling the TE, has anyone taken their keyboard apart yet?  I unscrewed all of the screws, but there seemed to be some plastic tabs or catches that were hidden somewhere so I backed off.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention that I wish I had purchased the blank layout model as I am now experimenting with moving a few of the keys around and there is something a little strange about having key labels not match key output.  Maybe TE sells a blank keycap set, but I haven't looked into this yet.
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Tue, 17 April 2012, 00:18:49
I'm also wishing I had grabbed a different model particularly the 109. The placement of the non-alphanumeric keys is really pissing me off.

BTW, if you want different keycaps, the TE ones are pretty close to ones you can get from WASD. Check out boli's experience thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?27089-A-Kinesis-Advantage-fan-tries-the-TrulyErgonomic-keyboard&p=510263&viewfull=1#post510263).
Title: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: heuristicist on Fri, 18 May 2012, 00:41:02
Aw damn. I'm now getting double keypresses on one of my keys. Ever since I tried sordna's Kinesis it's been growing on me, and I think I'm about ready to say that I'm done with the TE. I'm probably going to pick up a Kinesis when I'm in the US this summer and be done with it.

Even without the bad key though I'm finding that the key placement isn't nearly as optimal as the Kinesis. While the pronation is less (not gone though) than a regular keyboard, my fingers have to make some rather annoying stretches depending on the bigram I'm typing, which I didn't find with the Kinesis. So I'll either go with that or else just say "screw ergonomic" and buy a regular keyboard (maybe a Das?) with blues.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: to1ne on Mon, 18 March 2013, 03:04:49
"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days."

So am I the only one still having trouble with double or missing keypresses?

Last week I received my 207 with brown switches. Ever since I am experiencing double and missing keypresses. There are a lot of keys suffering this issue (to name a few: a, w, d, t, n, m, p, Left Alt).

Also I've found this recent article someone mentioning key "doubling": http://www.anandtech.com/print/6819

I have contacted TE (twice) and hope to receive response soon. At the moment the keyboard is almost unusable.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: to1ne on Tue, 02 April 2013, 02:34:51
They sure know how to ship fast, but replying to email takes ages. Nearly a month now without reply.
This is starting to make me really pissed off. >:D
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Con a la Bon on Fri, 05 April 2013, 03:07:39
The double presses probably started happening within the last few months. Seems quite random, but 'Space' and 'b' had it for a period of time, but jamming on it a bit 'fixed' them a bit.  Now though, some other keys will randomly double press (k, c, g, b, a few others I'm sure).

 I have a 105 MX-Red for reference.   
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: MykB77 on Tue, 09 April 2013, 22:18:07
I had a couple of random keys do this to me, i can't even remember which they were now.  They corrected and problem has not come back.  I will post if it comes up again.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: mygnu on Mon, 08 July 2013, 05:19:57
Hi guys I'm new to the forum. Recently got my TE. initially had issues with double/triple key-press, I am using blue O rings and it has improved a lot. Has anyone experienced the same?
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: addwyn on Mon, 08 July 2013, 07:44:21
Truly Ergonomics have now provided the third generation of TECK's firmwares. It would be interesting to systematically clarify the firmware version used in your TE keyboard when these problems are recognized or resolved (because I noticed that the debouncing program is slightly different (better???) in firmware v3)...
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: to1ne on Tue, 09 July 2013, 02:33:00
Cool, new firmware!
But no longer a version where Ctrl & Shift are swapped available?
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: addwyn on Tue, 09 July 2013, 11:13:50
But no longer a version where Ctrl & Shift are swapped available?

if  TE's firmware where Ctrl & Shift are reversed (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=79_90#Ctrl_Shift) is not what you need, you can swap Ctrl & Shift yourself  by hand (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38943.0) or using  Yuri Khan's on-line firmware generator (http://yurivkhan.github.io/teck/).
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Thu, 11 July 2013, 21:41:44
I just wanted to pipe in and mention that I see the same issues with my keyboard with no response or double-keypresses for about eight keys. This occurs at different frequencies depending on the key. e.g. every two to ten keystrokes. What's also interesting is that it's worse on one of two TECKs that I own, and also that it has gotten worse with time, especially when unused for a month. It's also getting better again with more frequent usage, although not perfect. What also might have helped is pressing hard on the faulty key, and wiggling a little. This makes it better, but does not fix it 100%.

This suggests to me that it's hardware problem. Also, I've tried updating my firmware to v3, but that didn't help. keyboard.co suggested briefly that it might be loose solder joints, but I'm not sure if this is the problem given the possible "fixes" above. I attempted to open the case, but there are recesses for screws under the sticker, and it's unclear to me whether removing the sticker would invalidate my warranty.

It's a real pity that this keyboard suffers from this problem, as it seems like a unique solution to RSI, and the best alternative out of similar keyboards.

=EDIT=
I have a 209 (Cherry Brown) model.

=EDIT2=
FWIW, I discovered that repeating keystrokes are called key chattering or contact bouncing (http://elitekeyboards.com/support.php?lang=en#5). I'm not sure if that's what this is, given that sometimes keys don't work either. I've had a google for this topic, but haven't come across anything that also mentions non-registering keys.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: to1ne on Sun, 14 July 2013, 05:00:14
if  TE's firmware where Ctrl & Shift are reversed (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=79_90#Ctrl_Shift) is not what you need, you can swap Ctrl & Shift yourself  by hand (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38943.0) or using  Yuri Khan's on-line firmware generator (http://yurivkhan.github.io/teck/).

Thanks, I totally did not see that on their site. Also the online generator is great.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: to1ne on Sun, 21 July 2013, 14:52:21
I finally wrote a review on the TECK (http://writepermission.com/2013/07/truly-ergonomic-full-review/).
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Mon, 22 July 2013, 23:14:11
I finally wrote a review on the TECK (http://writepermission.com/2013/07/truly-ergonomic-full-review/).

Thanks for the link, and thank you for to link the new FAQ in your review. I'm glad that Truly Ergonomic accept that this is a problem, although it certainly seems a lot more prevalent than other mechanical keyboards.

I should also mention that I'm not really seeing this problem any more. Oddly enough, I didn't experience it at all for the first few months, it then got very bad for a month, and now it's fine. What is odd is that I don't see it worse staggered for different keys. i.e. I would have expected common keys like "e" to pass through this progression earlier than uncommon keys like "F1".

==EDIT==
Also, I use xcape (on Linux) to allow held keys to act as modifiers, but send normal signals when pressed. Hence, Alt is mapped to Enter on my system.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: threshar on Mon, 13 January 2014, 13:58:04
I too am a victim of the dreaded key doubling syndrome.  For me, it is mostly E and T that are doing it. sometimes others will work.
Sometimes removing the keycap and putting it back on helps, sometimes it doesn't.  Sometimees it runs fine for a whilee, sometimes it doesn't. oh look, theere it goes.

I've emailed TECK a number of timese over the last few months with nothing but crickets coming back.  I useed to use a kinesis advantage. Liked that one but noticed I was streetching my fingers a lot (I never got fully used to where arrow keys were eeither)  and since my wrist problems were not improving I tried the teck.  I do like typing on it, but tthis doubling issue is making me go insane.

I didn't bother to correct any doubles so folks can see it in action. You'll notice periods of no doubling, and then it starts acting up.

Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: nomaded on Mon, 13 January 2014, 20:45:37
I also find that I sometimes get a bit of chatter with a few of the keys on this 209, but it's not very often, so I haven't contacted TECK about it.

This 209 was a replacement for an 109. That 109 had a worse problem, the 0 key would require a lot of force and accurate pressing of the middle of the keycap to work. But that was the only problem, so I stuck with it for a while. I think it took like 5 or 6 emails to TECK over about 6 months to get them to acknowledge my request and allowed me to ship it back as an RMA.

At this point, we have one 109 and one 209. They're both performing great, especially after being able to reprogram the keys.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Mon, 13 January 2014, 22:48:20
Apparently the latest firmware (v3.14 (https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Double_Letters)) solves this problem. Oddly enough, if you use custom firmware (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/layout-designer--configurator--reprogrammable--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard/), then the downloaded file is named "TrulyErgonomic_v3_3.hex", so I'm not sure if these fixes have been incorporated. (I assume "v3_3" < "v3.14"?) I emailed them to ask if this were the case. I'm not sure why. I never received a reply (again).

Anyway, even without the new firmware, these problems disappeared for me after several months on my two 209s. It was a very frustrating time though, and was about 6 months to a year before it was totally sorted.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: router.exe on Wed, 15 January 2014, 17:21:22
i have sticky key syndrome every couple days with my 207 brown on win 8.1.  it only seems to happen with Fn + <Fkey> combos.  trying to turn the volume up one click turns it to 11, turn it down one click sets it to 0.

i'm going to try the firmware they have listed(3.16?) this weekend and see if it fixes it.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Wed, 15 January 2014, 23:06:23
i have sticky key syndrome every couple days with my 207 brown on win 8.1.  it only seems to happen with Fn + <Fkey> combos.  trying to turn the volume up one click turns it to 11, turn it down one click sets it to 0.

Sticky keys are something different. The OP was referring to missing or double key presses. I can't seem to find the link any more, but the stuck volume key is a (different) known issue. I thought it was either on the official site or here?

FWIW I had it too, but not any more. I can't remember when it was fixed, but I'm running custom firmware. "v3_3" as per my previous post.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: router.exe on Wed, 15 January 2014, 23:26:24
i have sticky key syndrome every couple days with my 207 brown on win 8.1.  it only seems to happen with Fn + <Fkey> combos.  trying to turn the volume up one click turns it to 11, turn it down one click sets it to 0.

Sticky keys are something different. The OP was referring to missing or double key presses. I can't seem to find the link any more, but the stuck volume key is a (different) known issue. I thought it was either on the official site or here?

FWIW I had it too, but not any more. I can't remember when it was fixed, but I'm running custom firmware. "v3_3" as per my previous post.

i guess i was using sticky and double press terms interchangeably.

i too have installed the "custom" firmware for changing the map of my second delete key.  i did this in november or december i think.  i should try flashing again and see if something changes.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Thu, 16 January 2014, 00:26:13
Aha, found the link (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/firmware-upgrade--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard).

Quote
Firmware created with the “Layout Designer” has a small bug. If you press Fn along other keys within the ”Fn” layer, like Fn+F12 (Volume Up), the key-code might continue repeating in your computer after you have released the key. We are working on a solution.

If this happens, unplug and plug in again your keyboard.

This only happens when you release the Fn key before you have released all other keys.
If you make sure to release the Fn key after you have released all other keys, the problem will not arise.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: threshar on Fri, 17 January 2014, 12:58:34
so after someone mentioned custom firmware that made me curious.  From the looks of it, if you use the custom firmware thing on the site you are getting a firmware based on 3.3 (guessing by the filename).  So I decided to try 3.16 (or was it 17) from the site.  I loaded it up and I haven't had any doubles yet. so we shall see. Not sure if it is the keyboard or something, but something feels slightly laggy. I mean ever so slightly.

Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: nomaded on Tue, 04 February 2014, 00:39:48
Aha, found the link (http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/firmware-upgrade--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard).

Quote
Firmware created with the “Layout Designer” has a small bug. If you press Fn along other keys within the ”Fn” layer, like Fn+F12 (Volume Up), the key-code might continue repeating in your computer after you have released the key. We are working on a solution.

If this happens, unplug and plug in again your keyboard.

This only happens when you release the Fn key before you have released all other keys.
If you make sure to release the Fn key after you have released all other keys, the problem will not arise.

Looks like they were able to fix this bug. The custom layout designer puts out "v3_31" files now.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Tue, 04 February 2014, 05:16:17
The custom layout designer puts out "v3_31" files now.

Good find. I suppose "v3_31" is better than "v3_3" (the previous version for custom firmware), but it still isn't consistent with the default firmware of "v3_16". Once again, I wish their communication was better! (Also, I still haven't received a reply from my email.)
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: nomaded on Tue, 04 February 2014, 12:56:46
Good find. I suppose "v3_31" is better than "v3_3" (the previous version for custom firmware), but it still isn't consistent with the default firmware of "v3_16". Once again, I wish their communication was better! (Also, I still haven't received a reply from my email.)

I don't disagree. I just check back once in a while to see if anything has changed.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Tue, 04 February 2014, 15:58:26
v3_16 is the default firmware, considers DIP 1-4, fixes the double key presses  :D

v3_31 is from the layout designer, only considers DIP 2, your own custom layout and different layers, but it may produce double key presses  :(

if you want to help fix the double key presses from the custom firmware, yurivkhan needs guineapigs testers
https://github.com/yurivkhan/teck/issues/7 (https://github.com/yurivkhan/teck/issues/7) go there and tell you also have double key issues and would like to help  :thumb:
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Mon, 10 February 2014, 22:09:47
Thanks for the clarification, Azteca. My double-key issues have stopped by themselves, otherwise I'd offer my services.

(Also, does anyone know what the difference is between Yuri Khan's firmware updater and the official one? I understand that the latter is derived from the former, and I presume it is then further modified in a closed-source fashion? I've been a bit reticent to use Yuri's because I was unsure if it invalidated warranty.)
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Thu, 06 March 2014, 23:32:28
Okay, so the new version of TECK's layout designer (https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/layout-designer--configurator--reprogrammable--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard/) has a banner that says:

Quote
New Firmware (v3_40) created by this Layout Designer solves the Fn+Vol bug as well as the double letters issue.

Also, a slight bump for this part:

Also, does anyone know what the difference is between Yuri Khan's firmware updater and the official one? I understand that the latter is derived from the former, and I presume it is then further modified in a closed-source fashion? I've been a bit reticent to use Yuri's because I was unsure if it invalidated warranty.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: QuadGMoto on Fri, 07 March 2014, 07:33:32
Also, does anyone know what the difference is between Yuri Khan's firmware updater and the official one? I understand that the latter is derived from the former, and I presume it is then further modified in a closed-source fashion? I've been a bit reticent to use Yuri's because I was unsure if it invalidated warranty.

I had read up on Yuri's work at github before I went back to TE's layout designer and read there. Apparently the Layout Designer on TE's web site is Yuri's work. There's even a credit at the bottom:

Quote
Layout Designer based on the configurator by Yuri Khan

And in looking up the credit, I just noticed that the Custom Layout Designer now produces version 3_40 firmware.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Fri, 07 March 2014, 07:40:58
I had read up on Yuri's work at github before I went back to TE's layout designer and read there. Apparently the Layout Designer on TE's web site is Yuri's work. There's even a credit at the bottom:

Quote
Layout Designer based on the configurator by Yuri Khan


Right, so the official layout designer is "based" on his work. So my question still stands: "I presume it is then further modified in a closed-source fashion?" In fact, I can see that Yuri is still working out (https://github.com/yurivkhan/teck/issues/7) how to fix the bounce issue, whereas the official layout designer has supposedly fixed it, so I'm not sure if they added some new (closed) code, or if they went with some of Yuri's preliminary settings.

And in looking up the credit, I just noticed that the Custom Layout Designer now produces version 3_40 firmware.
Yep, that was at the top of my last post.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 30 October 2014, 23:08:34
/necro thread

I bought a TECK a month ago (227-wide alt with browns), and I'm getting a fair few key double presses, but mostly sometimes some keys don't register at all. It's weird because usually it's pretty bad first thing in the morning when I get into work (usually makes me have to retype my username/password at least once), but then it seems to improve over the course of the day.

What's really annoying is when you're typing, it doesn't register a key, then you backspace to remove whatever you typed after, then it does a double-press!! It's like a bloody practical joke. Really ruins my flow when trying to think. I breathe a little sigh of relief every day when I get home to my ergodox which works properly.

Every time it happens with a key, I bring up a notepad window and hit the offending key about 100 times (my coworker calls me "the woodpecker"), and this seems to fix that key for a while. Hardly good for avoiding RSI as TE claims though!!  >:D

Some keys seem to do it much more frequently than others, but it's never predictable. Very irritating.

I'm using the 3.40 firmware which supposedly fixes the double press/missed press issues, but hasn't worked for me.

I did see 4.00 firmware mentioned somewhere on their site but I use a custom layout so couldn't find a way to get my layout using 4.00 fw as the configurator generates v3.40.

It does seem a bit better than the first week though, it was almost unusable for the first week but I persevered because of TE's claims that switches need breaking in. I've had a few Cherry MX boards now though, and never have I experienced any issues like these.

It's hard for me to send the board back as I bought it "new" from ebay in Australia from a private seller, and from reading these threads, Truly Ergonomic support sounds pretty average anyway.

I'm still holding out hope that they really do fix the firmware, or my keys finally "break in". A month of fulltime work is a lot of breaking in though...

Pretty disappointing for a $200 keyboard really. Even the POS $15 hp rubber dome boards at my work manage to register all the presses without getting doubles. I just think that probably TE doesn't know how to code debouncing properly (not saying it's easy, just saying they can't do it).

Also it's 6KRO, not "Full N‑key rollover" as they claim on their site. This is a bit of an issue for me because I am learning Plover Stenography software.

I do like the layout, but with these issues, I just can't recommend this keyboard. What good is a keyboard that doesn't type properly??

Just leaving this here for anyone who is thinking about buying one of these. I would certainly think twice before I bought one. At times I've felt like throwing this one out the window!! Luckily for this one, the windows are locked shut at my work...
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Thu, 30 October 2014, 23:28:52
I bought two keyboards 1.5 years ago, and I'm still having problems. After a few months, both had "broken in". However, after coming back to work after a year off, I found that the work keyboard had reverted to its horrible broken state. I would press the broken keys literally 1000 times, and it would only make an incremental difference.

Having said that, it appears to have restabilised after another week or so. It's a great keyboard when it works, but as you say, it's a horrible horrible beast to start with. There are some commands that just shouldn't be mistyped. Rechecking every word slowed me down tenfold, so I absolutely feel your pain.

I did bring some D5 Deoxit to work, but I was unsure as to whether this would make the problem worse or not. Fortunately it fixed itself…

EDIT: Oh and I paid ~A$350 each for the keyboard + shipping to Australia from The Keyboard Company.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Fri, 31 October 2014, 00:54:58
I bought a TECK a month ago (227-wide alt with browns)

207 uses Cherry MX Brown
227 uses Kailh MX-Compatible Brown
remove a keycap and verify the switches you really have.


... bought it "new" from ebay in Australia from a private seller...

you could have bought a "new lemon" from eBay; nobody sells these boards "new" outside their website and their distributors.


Also it's 6KRO, not "Full N‑key rollover" as they claim on their site

"The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard incorporates Full N‑key rollover capability (6‑key rollover plus modifiers restricted by USB specifications)."

"Full N‑key rollover (NKRO). Also known as anti‑ghosting; each keypress is correctly detected regardless of how many other keys (up to 6 plus modifiers) are being pressed at the same time."

nobody reads the FAQ anymore


I breathe a little sigh of relief every day when I get home to my ergodox which works properly.

another ErgoDox troller  :confused:

sell the TE "new" on eBay and get another ErgoDox for your office if you really love it.

firmware 3.4 made by Yuri Khan works flawlessly - you can even increase the debouncing up to 15ms to decrease double-keys, so the problem is not the firmware, the problem is faulty cherry switches.

if you really have an ErgoDox, then you know how to solder: open the TrulyErgonomic, exchange the faulty switches, and stop whining like a baby troller.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: sparhawk on Fri, 31 October 2014, 01:06:10
you could have bought a "new lemon" from eBay; nobody sells these boards "new" outside their website and their distributors.

...

firmware 3.4 made by Yuri Khan works flawlessly - you can even increase the debouncing up to 15ms to decrease double-keys, so the problem is not the firmware, the problem is faulty cherry switches.

if you really have an ErgoDox, then you know how to solder: open the TrulyErgonomic, exchange the faulty switches, and stop whining like a baby troller.

I agree that clickclack123 may have bought a used keyboard, but I think you are being a little too aggressive with much of your post.

As I mention above, I have had similar problems, while running the latest firmware from the manufacturer's site. I don't think it's just faulty switches, as the keys settle down after a while.

To call someone a baby troller because they disagree with you, or even if you think they are ignorant, is unnecessary and rude.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Fri, 31 October 2014, 01:36:45
I don't think it's just faulty switches, as the keys settle down after a while.

faulty switches get better after using them, but tend to return being faulty in most cases.

you both can try adding a few drops of isopropyl alcohol directly into faulty switches, then press them a lot; it tends to help and can last a few weeks or forever. :thumb:

To call someone a baby troller because they disagree with you, or even if you think they are ignorant, is unnecessary and rude.

every time someone is whining like a baby troller conveniently loves the ErgoDox and hates the TE (long story).

Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 31 October 2014, 03:10:03
I bought a TECK a month ago (227-wide alt with browns)

207 uses Cherry MX Brown
227 uses Kailh MX-Compatible Brown
remove a keycap and verify the switches you really have.

I'll check on Monday at work. It was listed as TECK-8008-N-104-US if that makes a difference.

Quote
... bought it "new" from ebay in Australia from a private seller...

you could have bought a "new lemon" from eBay; nobody sells these boards "new" outside their website and their distributors.

I probably did. But it certainly looked new. Anyway, why are there "new lemons" of these anyway? This is not something I've ever heard about having to worry about with any other keyboard. I knew I was taking a bit of a chance when I bought it.

Quote
Also it's 6KRO, not "Full N‑key rollover" as they claim on their site

"The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard incorporates Full N‑key rollover capability (6‑key rollover plus modifiers restricted by USB specifications)."

"Full N‑key rollover (NKRO). Also known as anti‑ghosting; each keypress is correctly detected regardless of how many other keys (up to 6 plus modifiers) are being pressed at the same time."

nobody reads the FAQ anymore

I read the FAQ before I bought it. I decided to buy it anyway. But just redefining something doesn't make it true. NKRO!=6KRO, despite what TE (and you?) say.

Quote
I breathe a little sigh of relief every day when I get home to my ergodox which works properly.

another ErgoDox troller  :confused:

sell the TE "new" on eBay and get another ErgoDox for your office if you really love it.

I would love to, but the Ergodox is a bit too out there for my office. I'd have to answer questions about it all the time. I'd rather if I could find some way to make the keyboard that I've already paid for work.

Also, maybe you are, but I'm not the kind of ******* who would sell it faulty without telling the buyer.

Quote
firmware 3.4 made by Yuri Khan works flawlessly - you can even increase the debouncing up to 15ms to decrease double-keys, so the problem is not the firmware, the problem is faulty cherry switches.

Works flawlessly for you maybe. But I'm not the only one who's had these problems.

It also said that if you increase the debounce time, then keypresses will be missed. Mostly my problem is missing presses, then maybe 1/5 of the time they double-press.

Quote
if you really have an ErgoDox, then you know how to solder: open the TrulyErgonomic, exchange the faulty switches, and stop whining like a baby troller.

How rude! I don't like your tone. Troller? And what, persay, would I be trolling for? Always amazes me how people can get so worked up over the internet. Maybe they were never hugged as a child.

I've put up pictures of my ErgoDox on gh, which I assure you I really have. I'm just stating my experience.

I have maybe 10 switches that are faulty sometimes. At some point you have to say there's a design fault there, when 10% of the switches are faulty! That makes me more inclined to believe it's a hardware/firmware issue. I'm not very enthused to spend what will inevitably be hours fixing something with a flawed design, with the chance that all that work won't even fix the issue.

I agree that clickclack123 may have bought a used keyboard, but I think you are being a little too aggressive with much of your post.

As I mention above, I have had similar problems, while running the latest firmware from the manufacturer's site. I don't think it's just faulty switches, as the keys settle down after a while.

To call someone a baby troller because they disagree with you, or even if you think they are ignorant, is unnecessary and rude.

Thanks sparhawk.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 01 November 2014, 17:08:10


So who makes these 'new lemons' then?


Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: hoggy on Sun, 02 November 2014, 01:57:07
Sparhawk, ClickClack123, I hope you get your issues sorted. 

It sounds like TE could drastically improve their boards by adopting a phantom style plate.  It would be much nicer for a member here to simply say, buy a replacement switch from here, pry the switch out in the same way as in this video, and pop in the innards of the replacement switch... 
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 02 November 2014, 06:37:19
Sparhawk, ClickClack123, I hope you get your issues sorted. 

It sounds like TE could drastically improve their boards by adopting a phantom style plate.  It would be much nicer for a member here to simply say, buy a replacement switch from here, pry the switch out in the same way as in this video, and pop in the innards of the replacement switch...

It's Azteca who has a problem, not sparhawk.

edit: oh, you meant our issues with our keyboards. Thanks.

Yes it would be good if they had a plate with the extra cutouts, but even better if they shipped with working switches. It's a QC issue really when these problems exist in new boards.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Sun, 02 November 2014, 17:10:09
I bought a TECK a month ago (227-wide alt with browns)

207 uses Cherry MX Brown
227 uses Kailh MX-Compatible Brown
remove a keycap and verify the switches you really have.

Looks like Cherry MX Brown.

[attach=1]
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Mon, 03 November 2014, 16:10:27
Quote
TECK-8008-N-104-US
model 104 is the first generation for this board from 2010; uses Cherry MX - "Cherry logo" shows on the switch.

newer switches say Kailh (https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/image/data/Truly_Ergonomic_Keyboard__Soft_Tactile_Mechanical_Switches__MX_Brown.jpg)

Quote
why are there "new lemons" of these

"lemon product": a sarcasm way to mention that the product is faulty. Any product can have its “lemons”, which mean that even the best most precise and expensive product can be defective or become faulty after some use. NO product no matter the tolerance levels can become defective. Buying a lemon is usually due to lack of information.

Quote
I read the FAQ before I bought it. I decided to buy it anyway. But just redefining something doesn't make it true. NKRO!=6KRO, despite what TE (and you?) say.

"Full N‑key rollover capability": means the product is capable of NKRO.
6‑key rollover plus modifiers IS restricted by USB specifications. If USB changes, then the TE would become NKRO.

Other keyboards that claim NKRO is because they are fooling the OS into thinking they are multiple keyboards at the same time, which in turn allows more the 6KRO, but it is only good for gaming.
Most USB-NKRO keyboards are not good (nor required) for normal typing because when you type fast with a fake NKRO the letters can show in a different order as typed due to the USB timings. So if you type 1234, it can show as 3412 - ok for gaming but bad for typing.

Quote
Firmware works flawlessly for you maybe. But I'm not the only one who's had these problems.

If you have newest firmware and have problems, then the problem is faulty switches.

adding a few drops of isopropyl alcohol (https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Double_Letters) directly into faulty switches, then press them a lot, tends to help and can last a few weeks or forever. :thumb:

Quote
I have maybe 10 switches that are faulty sometimes. At some point you have to say there's a design fault there, when 10% of the switches are faulty! That makes me more inclined to believe it's a hardware/firmware issue. I'm not very enthused to spend what will inevitably be hours fixing something with a flawed design, with the chance that all that work won't even fix the issue.

If your board was manufactured with faulty keyswitches, all of them can be faulty. This does not make the product a bad design or a bad manufacturing issue, the problem is just faulty switches.

Replace the switches and you would have a great board design that is reliable.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: davkol on Tue, 04 November 2014, 05:49:20
Quote
I have maybe 10 switches that are faulty sometimes. At some point you have to say there's a design fault there, when 10% of the switches are faulty! That makes me more inclined to believe it's a hardware/firmware issue. I'm not very enthused to spend what will inevitably be hours fixing something with a flawed design, with the chance that all that work won't even fix the issue.

If your board was manufactured with faulty keyswitches, all of them can be faulty. This does not make the product a bad design or a bad manufacturing issue, the problem is just faulty switches.

Replace the switches and you would have a great board design that is reliable.
There's no quality control?

I find it amusing that I've never seen so many complaints about malfunctioning keys on any particular keyboard other than Truly Ergonomic and Noppoo Choc Mini.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Architect on Tue, 04 November 2014, 05:55:37
The first batch of TE's unfortunately had a bad batch of keys. They also had firmware issues. Both have been fixed looong since. Actually the original batch keys fixed themselves with use. TE gave rebates and took them back and such, but if you gave the switches half a chance they fixed themselves.

I've got about 10 TE's of various vintages new and old for all my systems and all of them have no problems. TE made a mistake when they started up by taking pre-orders, it built up some negative feelings, and of course then they suffered all the usual first release issues most hardware companies have.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Tue, 04 November 2014, 11:11:14
"I don't have a problem with mine" is no help to those who do have problems with theirs.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: qihqi on Tue, 04 November 2014, 16:25:38
Maybe try flash a different firmware with lower debouncing time? (https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/layout-designer--configurator--reprogrammable--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard/)
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Tue, 04 November 2014, 22:31:04
Maybe try flash a different firmware with lower debouncing time? (https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/layout-designer--configurator--reprogrammable--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard/)

I flashed one this morning with 8ms debouncing. I'm still getting both missed presses and double presses.

It's maybe slightly better but hard to tell. If anything, I feel like I'm seeing slightly less missed presses but more double presses, which is the opposite of what I would have thought would happen when the debounce time is lengthened.

Might as well try a lower debounce time just for the hell of it.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Architect on Wed, 05 November 2014, 06:35:39
"I don't have a problem with mine" is no help to those who do have problems with theirs.

Neither is posts just complaining about other posts :)

Actually I'd say it is useful, it's trying to establish a baseline for whether it's a common or uncommon problem. If uncommon then perhaps it's due to misconfiguring, incorrect use, etc. which might warrant investigation (of course it could just be a problem with those switches he has too.)
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Wed, 05 November 2014, 11:46:43
"I don't have a problem with mine" is no help to those who do have problems with theirs.

Neither is posts just complaining about other posts :)

Actually I'd say it is useful, it's trying to establish a baseline for whether it's a common or uncommon problem. If uncommon then perhaps it's due to misconfiguring, incorrect use, etc. which might warrant investigation (of course it could just be a problem with those switches he has too.)
Or you could read clickclack123s posts to see that they *have* done the relevant homework, etc.

What makes me *very* suspicious is TE claiming that keyswitches somehow need "breaking in".

Quote from: Truly Ergonomic troubleshooting FAQ, entry #1
It is not uncommon that some Mechanical keyswitches require to "break-in" before working properly; this means that the switch itself requires to be pressed several times before it performs properly.
Actually, it is *very* uncommon.  In 45 years of IT work, most of which has been done using mechanical keyboards, I have *never* come across a keyswitch that needed "breaking in".  Broken keyswitches, yes.  Dirty keyswitches, yes.  But "breaking in"? That's "audiophool" levels of "assuming your customer is a ****ing idiot".  If your keyswitch registers twice, it's not an issue with the switch, it's that your firmware (or, in the case of hardware debouncing, hardware) is broken.  If it doesn't register at all, either the switch is broken, or, again, your firmware / hardware is broken.

Occam's razor, as usual, cuts through the bull****.  If Cherry keyswitches needed breaking in, and some percentage, no matter how small, misbehaved unless they had been broken in, *every* keyboard using Cherry keyswitches would be exhibiting this issue to some extent, with roughly the same percentage of problems.  Is that the case?  No, it's not, the problem is elsewhere.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 05 November 2014, 11:56:15
If your keyswitch registers twice, it's not an issue with the switch, it's that your firmware (or, in the case of hardware debouncing, hardware) is broken.
The design of the switch absolutely plays into such double-actuations. If the electrical contact is poor, extra actuations are much more likely, given whatever arbitrary debounce routine.

Since these are standard Cherry MX switches though, I agree it’s quite unlikely to be a problem with the switches.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Wed, 05 November 2014, 12:42:25
If your keyswitch registers twice, it's not an issue with the switch, it's that your firmware (or, in the case of hardware debouncing, hardware) is broken.
The design of the switch absolutely plays into such double-actuations. If the electrical contact is poor, extra actuations are much more likely, given whatever arbitrary debounce routine.

Since these are standard Cherry MX switches though, I agree it’s quite unlikely to be a problem with the switches.
I'd go further, actually.  I'm almost certain that it's  firmware issue, and as such it's likely a problem with 100% of TECKs, just that it's only seen by a certain percentage of users, due to the way they type. 

As an example, I'm known to break keyboards.  My typing causes double keypresses on the (execrable) Apple A1048 "white" keyboard, and missed keypresses on my X220's internal scissor switch board.  Both of these are "OK" for my wife.  I was the only one seeing missed keypresses on the M0116 equipped with hasu's converter; that turned out to be an obscure bug, but if I hadn't known the board was "good" with a different converter, it would have been easy to put it down to a broken 'board. Again, for my wife, typing on the board was OK.  Even my Tactile Pro drops keypresses (very) occasionally for me.  The 1048 is a rubber dome POS, so it doesn't really count, but there is definitely something about my typing, especially when I first hit the keyboard.  Mainly, I suspect, that I'm fast-ish, and I have a light touch.  It's odd that the 1048 gives me double keypresses, and the others are / were drops.  That said, debouncing a rubber dome is a different kettle of fish to doing the same on a quality mechanical switch.

Now, I find that accuracy with any of the "misbehaving" boards above gets better the longer I'm typing.  I strongly suspect that this is down to  my typing getting slower and less "controlled" as the day goes on, and, quite possibly, due to subconciously adjusting the way I type to the board I'm using.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Wed, 05 November 2014, 15:48:37

if the switches work after some usage, then it is definitely not the firmware.

newest firmware debouncing works flawlessly.

"break-in" is recommended only when the switches misbehave, in case the switch is filthy; nobody is saying is recommended for "every" TE board.

if the key doubles or does nothing, upgrade the firmware;
if continues to fail, clean the keyboard/switch with isopropyl alcohol;
if still fails then replace the switch.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 05 November 2014, 16:06:53
if the switches work after some usage, then it is definitely not the firmware.

"break-in" is recommended only when the switches misbehave, in case the switch is filthy; nobody is saying is recommended for "every" TE board.
Who recommends this? I have never heard anyone else recommend that “breaking in” a broken switch will fix it. That seems unlikely. (I have heard people advocate “breaking in” switches to wear down some of the surface imperfections on the plastic of the slider/housing, to improve the feeling of scratchy, frictiony switches. That’s a totally different issue though.)

MX switches are for the most part known to be reliable. If there’s one faulty switch the keyboard should be RMA’d or the switch replaced. If there are a whole bunch of faulty switches, then perhaps Truly Ergonomic bought a bad batch of switches from some disreputable source? That still sounds pretty unlikely. A brand new switch is not in general going to be “filthy”.

More plausible explanations: sloppy soldering from a cheap assembly process, hardware problems with the microcontroller, badly designed/implemented firmware.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Architect on Wed, 05 November 2014, 18:00:01
What makes me *very* suspicious is TE claiming that keyswitches somehow need "breaking in".

I didn't say they said that - I did. I got one of the bad boards, got a partial discount, then found that with use the bad switches corrected themselves. IIRC they recommended some key oil which tried but didn't work, but maybe that needed time to work it's way in. No idea otherwise.

Quote
Or you could read clickclack123s posts to see that they *have* done the relevant homework, etc.

I was making a joke, but whatever.

As for break in I've been using Cherry browns for 25 years. In the old days it was on Kinesis boards. I got one as did a few others at my work place. One of them actually got used until it simply wore out - the only Cherry keyboard I've ever seen in that condition. Anyhow I would replace mine after some 7 years (continuous daily use) because the plastic would get so dirty and worn. But I found that the Browns "worked in" by that point that they became entirely different. They "flowed like butter". Didn't click much at all (not that they click much), but they were really soft, but not like Reds. I think the springs wear down, and the plastic parts smooth off too after a few tens of thousands of hits.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 05 November 2014, 18:12:29
"lemon product": a sarcasm way to mention that the product is faulty. Any product can have its “lemons”, which mean that even the best most precise and expensive product can be defective or become faulty after some use. NO product no matter the tolerance levels can become defective. Buying a lemon is usually due to lack of information.

"Buying a lemon is usually due to a lack of information"! WTF? It's the consumer's fault that TE can't produce a non-lemon??

Quality and precise products should have quality and precise QA that spots lemons before they go to the consumer. TE obviously does not have that, judging by the number of people experiencing these problems.

So logic dictates that TE are not producing a quality and precise product.

Quote
Quote
I read the FAQ before I bought it. I decided to buy it anyway. But just redefining something doesn't make it true. NKRO!=6KRO, despite what TE (and you?) say.

"Full N‑key rollover capability": means the product is capable of NKRO.
6‑key rollover plus modifiers IS restricted by USB specifications. If USB changes, then the TE would become NKRO.

Other keyboards that claim NKRO is because they are fooling the OS into thinking they are multiple keyboards at the same time, which in turn allows more the 6KRO, but it is only good for gaming.
Most USB-NKRO keyboards are not good (nor required) for normal typing because when you type fast with a fake NKRO the letters can show in a different order as typed due to the USB timings. So if you type 1234, it can show as 3412 - ok for gaming but bad for typing.

What difference does it make how they do it or if you think it's "required"? The TE is, by definition, not NKRO, despite their claims.

They say "our board is Full-NKRO, now here's why NKRO isn't possible over USB..."

Also, just for the sake of accuracy, NKRO is possible without emulating multiple keyboards. <baby troller mode ON> My Ergodox using TMK firmware does not show up as multiple keyboards.

I use NKRO for stenography using Plover. Not gaming.

And I think you'd have to press keys awfully fast to notice timing issues over usb, assuming well written firmware. USB and microcontrollers work at MHz speeds.

Quote
Quote
Firmware works flawlessly for you maybe. But I'm not the only one who's had these problems.

If your board was manufactured with faulty keyswitches, all of them can be faulty. This does not make the product a bad design or a bad manufacturing issue, the problem is just faulty switches.

Replace the switches and you would have a great board design that is reliable.

Another WTF. Manufacturing a board with faulty keyswitches is exactly what a bad manufacturing issue is.

Do you work for TE??

Or you could read clickclack123s posts to see that they *have* done the relevant homework, etc.

What makes me *very* suspicious is TE claiming that keyswitches somehow need "breaking in".

Actually, it is *very* uncommon.  In 45 years of IT work, most of which has been done using mechanical keyboards, I have *never* come across a keyswitch that needed "breaking in".  Broken keyswitches, yes.  Dirty keyswitches, yes.  But "breaking in"? That's "audiophool" levels of "assuming your customer is a ****ing idiot".  If your keyswitch registers twice, it's not an issue with the switch, it's that your firmware (or, in the case of hardware debouncing, hardware) is broken.  If it doesn't register at all, either the switch is broken, or, again, your firmware / hardware is broken.

Occam's razor, as usual, cuts through the bull****.  If Cherry keyswitches needed breaking in, and some percentage, no matter how small, misbehaved unless they had been broken in, *every* keyboard using Cherry keyswitches would be exhibiting this issue to some extent, with roughly the same percentage of problems.  Is that the case?  No, it's not, the problem is elsewhere.

Well written. I just can't believe that I'd have a 10% failure rate, assuming these are real Cherry MX switches. IMO it's got to be the firmware/hardware, unless they are fake switches.

Either way, it's really not acceptable for such an expensive board.

Neither is posts just complaining about other posts :)

Actually I'd say it is useful, it's trying to establish a baseline for whether it's a common or uncommon problem. If uncommon then perhaps it's due to misconfiguring, incorrect use, etc. which might warrant investigation (of course it could just be a problem with those switches he has too.)

Is it really possible to use a keyboard incorrectly?? It's not a complicated thing. You press a switch, it should show a key (once). All other keyboards that I've owned and used needed no configuration beyond changing the layout to my own preference, and I've never experienced double-press or missed press issues on any other keyboard, regardless of which firmware it was using.

if the switches work after some usage, then it is definitely not the firmware.

"break-in" is recommended only when the switches misbehave, in case the switch is filthy; nobody is saying is recommended for "every" TE board.
Who recommends this? I have never heard anyone else recommend that “breaking in” a broken switch will fix it. That seems unlikely. (I have heard people advocate “breaking in” switches to wear down some of the surface imperfections on the plastic of the slider/housing, to improve the feeling of scratchy, frictiony switches. That’s a totally different issue though.)

MX switches are for the most part known to be reliable. If there’s one faulty switch the keyboard should be RMA’d or the switch replaced. If there are a whole bunch of faulty switches, then perhaps Truly Ergonomic bought a bad batch of switches from some disreputable source? That still sounds pretty unlikely. A brand new switch is not in general going to be “filthy”.

More plausible explanations: sloppy soldering from a cheap assembly process, hardware problems with the microcontroller, badly designed/implemented firmware.

Why would the switches be "filthy" on people's new boards??

Either TE bought cheap switches, made the switches "filthy" during manufacture, can't write working firmware, or can't design/manufacture a working board.

What makes me *very* suspicious is TE claiming that keyswitches somehow need "breaking in".

I didn't say they said that - I did. I got one of the bad boards, got a partial discount, then found that with use the bad switches corrected themselves. IIRC they recommended some key oil which tried but didn't work, but maybe that needed time to work it's way in. No idea otherwise.
TE does claim that switches need breaking in - https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Double_Letters (https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Double_Letters)

Quote
It is not uncommon that some Mechanical keyswitches require to "break-in" before working properly; this means that the switch itself requires to be pressed several times before it performs properly.

We therefore ask you to un-plug your keyboard from your computer, press the misbehave key(s) several times with normal pressure for a couple of minutes, and then plug in your keyboard. This behavior usually disappears by itself after a few days of usage.
Quote
As for break in I've been using Cherry browns for 25 years. In the old days it was on Kinesis boards. I got one as did a few others at my work place. One of them actually got used until it simply wore out - the only Cherry keyboard I've ever seen in that condition. Anyhow I would replace mine after some 7 years (continuous daily use) because the plastic would get so dirty and worn. But I found that the Browns "worked in" by that point that they became entirely different. They "flowed like butter". Didn't click much at all (not that they click much), but they were really soft, but not like Reds. I think the springs wear down, and the plastic parts smooth off too after a few tens of thousands of hits.

But they never had to be "worked in" just to register presses properly, I assume?

What kind of oil did they suggest, and where to put it?

If your keyswitch registers twice, it's not an issue with the switch, it's that your firmware (or, in the case of hardware debouncing, hardware) is broken.
The design of the switch absolutely plays into such double-actuations. If the electrical contact is poor, extra actuations are much more likely, given whatever arbitrary debounce routine.

Since these are standard Cherry MX switches though, I agree it’s quite unlikely to be a problem with the switches.
I'd go further, actually.  I'm almost certain that it's  firmware issue, and as such it's likely a problem with 100% of TECKs, just that it's only seen by a certain percentage of users, due to the way they type. 

As an example, I'm known to break keyboards.  My typing causes double keypresses on the (execrable) Apple A1048 "white" keyboard, and missed keypresses on my X220's internal scissor switch board.  Both of these are "OK" for my wife.  I was the only one seeing missed keypresses on the M0116 equipped with hasu's converter; that turned out to be an obscure bug, but if I hadn't known the board was "good" with a different converter, it would have been easy to put it down to a broken 'board. Again, for my wife, typing on the board was OK.  Even my Tactile Pro drops keypresses (very) occasionally for me.  The 1048 is a rubber dome POS, so it doesn't really count, but there is definitely something about my typing, especially when I first hit the keyboard.  Mainly, I suspect, that I'm fast-ish, and I have a light touch.  It's odd that the 1048 gives me double keypresses, and the others are / were drops.  That said, debouncing a rubber dome is a different kettle of fish to doing the same on a quality mechanical switch.

Now, I find that accuracy with any of the "misbehaving" boards above gets better the longer I'm typing.  I strongly suspect that this is down to  my typing getting slower and less "controlled" as the day goes on, and, quite possibly, due to subconciously adjusting the way I type to the board I'm using.

I think you're right about all this. It has to be a firmware or hardware issue, assuming they are real Cherry Brown switches. None of the thousands of other Cherry Brown boards have switches that need "breaking in".

I'm also fast-ish with a light touch when typing as well. In fact, I have intentionally practiced being as fast as possible with a light touch so as not to bottom-out.

The thing that I've found most frustrating about the problems with this board is that it's changing the way I type, and not in a good way. I'm having to press harder on the first few letters of each word, and having to check as I go for double-letters/missed letters is killing my flow. When I do get a missed press, I bottom it out the next time and that usually works properly.

Really annoying when, eg you want to press Ctrl-C to copy, and it misses the press and doesn't copy the text. You have no way of knowing that it didn't work.

Typing is a chore on this board. The more fast into the flow I get, the more likely I am to get a double-press or missed key. If I just bottom-out and type slowly, it's fine. It's goddamn annoying. Hunt-and-peck ham-fisted typists would probably be fine, but it's really annoying for me as a light fingered touch typist.

The enter key seems to require a harder press than other keys as well, I'm not sure if it's something to do with the stabilizer on that key, or another switch that needs "breaking-in", but it's another gripe.

Anyway, the problems are just below the threshold for me to return the board. Sending it from here in Australia to Canada would be a large hassle, so I'm waiting and hoping they eventually get their firmware working properly. But as long as they claim it's switches that need breaking in, they're not working on the firmware. And I don't have a keyboard that I'd rather use at work anyway, unless I go back to a standard qwerty layout which I'd hate slightly more than a keyboard that is a bit flaky.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: davkol on Wed, 05 November 2014, 18:16:11
Weren't Cherry MX Brown switches actually featured on the Kinesis Contoured in 1992 first?

I've had a 1996 well-used compaq with browns. The switches were indeed were smooth, not scratchy like brand new browns. I tried to replace some switch parts and do some blind testing. Springs had no perceivable effect.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Wed, 05 November 2014, 20:08:59
Quote
It's the consumer's fault that TE can't produce a non-lemon??

Can you read the hole written paragraph? ALL manufacturers can have a lemon product somewhere in there at any time.

TE does claim that switches need breaking in - but only for a switch that does not work. (read the hole paragraph)


Quote
Ergodox TMK firmware achieves NKRO without showing as multiple keyboards

Please help or persuade Yuri Kahn (the person that enhanced the TE firmware) (https://github.com/yurivkhan/teck/) to add TMK NKRO firmware logic into the TE, so we all benefit from it.

Otherwise, enlighten us and explain how does Ergodox TMK firmware works to achieve NKRO without showing as multiple keyboards.


Quote
Manufacturing a board with faulty switches is exactly what a bad manufacturing issue is.

You are mistaken (again). Big difference between manufacturing procedures and standards, and the low quality of a part received from cherry.

Manufacturers cannot test every single switch they receive; they pay a high price to Cherry to receive high quality switches and sometimes they are the ones who get screw and receive a low quality untested batch. If TE receives a bad batch, boards will have defective switches. This is what we are saying happen with some boards and not only TE. You can volunteer to test every switch along a manufacturer if you feel like it, but after your first million switch you will see it is not worth it.


Quote
Either TE bought cheap switches, made the switches "filthy" during manufacture, can't write working firmware, or can't design/manufacture a working board.

You definitely have issues and have no idea how manufacturing works. Above claims can only come from a baby whining troller.


Quote
Typing is a chore on this board.

For someone that hates this board, you type a lot with it, and talk too much about it.


Quote
hoping they eventually get their firmware working properly.

Again, the firmware works properly.

The problem are faulty switches, or the driver (the person using the board).
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 05 November 2014, 20:32:18
Otherwise, enlighten us and explain how does Ergodox TMK firmware works to achieve NKRO without showing as multiple keyboards.
It’s open source: you can read the code directly, and there’s a description of the report format here:
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/doc/USB_NKRO.txt

Quote
Quote
Manufacturing a board with faulty switches is exactly what a bad manufacturing issue is.
You are mistaken (again). Big difference between manufacturing procedures and standards, and the low quality of a part received from cherry.

Manufacturers cannot test every single switch they receive;
Sure they can, though building the robot which does the testing is certainly not trivial or free. Cherry for example tests every switch on every assembled keyboard before they ship it out the door.

QA/QC is absolutely the responsibility of any vendor, and a consumer who gets a keyboard with a defect should RMA it, and likewise a keyboard company who gets batches of bad parts from their upstream vendors should have some kind of guarantees written into their contract, because the buck stops with the company selling keyboards, and from the customer perspective the switches are mostly an implementation detail. (Of course, QA/QC is a trade-off like anything else, and it’s understandable that a small relatively new company with manufacturing outsourced to some Taiwanese (?) OEM is going to have a harder time than a company who has been in the business manufacturing their own stuff for decades.

Similarly with support. Responsive and helpful support is the responsibility of any vendor. When support is lacking, customers are well within their rights to be angry and stop buying future products from the same company. Again, it’s understandable that a small company with limited resources would have difficulty keeping up with support, but good support is just one of those inherent costs of doing business, if you want to maintain a good reputation.

In any event, if there is a pervasive issue with switch double actuations or dropped actuations it’s more likely that the problem lies with firmware/controller or assembly quality, rather than defective switches.

Finally, blaming the typist when a keyboard is buggy/broken seems nuts.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 05 November 2014, 22:04:45
Quote
It's the consumer's fault that TE can't produce a non-lemon??

Can you read the hole written paragraph? ALL manufacturers can have a lemon product somewhere in there at any time.

TE does claim that switches need breaking in - but only for a switch that does not work. (read the hole paragraph)

Yes but not at the level that these TE boards seem to have problems. Can't be that unusual if they have a whole page on their site about double-presses and missed presses, and other people on this forum have confirmed their experiences.

Perhaps your "w" key isn't working properly?  ;D I actually quoted two "hole" (sic) paragraphs from TE about the breaking in, as well as linking to the TE Troubleshooting page itself.

Quote
Quote
Ergodox TMK firmware achieves NKRO without showing as multiple keyboards

Please help or persuade Yuri Kahn (the person that enhanced the TE firmware) (https://github.com/yurivkhan/teck/) to add TMK NKRO firmware logic into the TE, so we all benefit from it.

Otherwise, enlighten us and explain how does Ergodox TMK firmware works to achieve NKRO without showing as multiple keyboards.

I hope you realize how silly you appear when you act like an expert and imply that it's not possible, then someone links to a page explaining exactly how it is achieved.

Anyway, every one of your posts has been in a similar vein.

Quote

Quote
Manufacturing a board with faulty switches is exactly what a bad manufacturing issue is.

You are mistaken (again). Big difference between manufacturing procedures and standards, and the low quality of a part received from cherry.

Manufacturers cannot test every single switch they receive; they pay a high price to Cherry to receive high quality switches and sometimes they are the ones who get screw and receive a low quality untested batch. If TE receives a bad batch, boards will have defective switches. This is what we are saying happen with some boards and not only TE. You can volunteer to test every switch along a manufacturer if you feel like it, but after your first million switch you will see it is not worth it.

I don't have a relationship with Cherry, I have a relationship with TE who supplied the keyboard. It is up to them how they source working keys, keycaps, cables, controllers, and whatever else.

I paid for a working keyboard. They can either supply that or they can't. In this case, they couldn't.

Quote

Quote
Either TE bought cheap switches, made the switches "filthy" during manufacture, can't write working firmware, or can't design/manufacture a working board.

You definitely have issues and have no idea how manufacturing works. Above claims can only come from a baby whining troller.

I may not be an expert like yourself, but even with my limited knowledge, I would have thought that manufacturing wasn't meant to produce non-working lemons that I have to solder to fix.

Quote
Quote
Typing is a chore on this board.

For someone that hates this board, you type a lot with it, and talk too much about it.

I'm just typing to break the switches in.   :-*

I don't hate this board. I like the layout, feel and physical dimensions of it. Unfortunately there's nothing else on the market that's suitable for my needs at the moment, except the Ergodox which is unsuitable for other reasons.

I'm just disappointed that it's critically let down by substandard programming/hardware. I had read the troubleshooting page about the double presses before I even bought it, I just hoped that even if I did see problems, their solutions would work. They didn't.

I have only typed this much to try and correct some of your misinformation. My first post in this thread was meant to just serve as a warning to anyone that might be thinking about buying one of these. I didn't intend to write any more than that.

Then you chimed in with all your nonsense about how it's my fault that the keyboard doesn't work properly and keyboards aren't meant to work correctly and I'm a troller for thinking otherwise etc etc.

You, sir, are the troller! Ka-blam!

Quote

Quote
hoping they eventually get their firmware working properly.

Again, the firmware works properly.

The problem are faulty switches, or the driver (the person using the board).

Forgive me, oh guru, if I don't agree with you. You are a righteous guru destined to walk the lonely earth alone, your only comfort the knowledge that although nobody agrees with you, you are still righteous in your conviction. Only with your passing will the misguided ones realize their mistake.

So can you please pass already?

re: the driver remark, I feel no need to comment on this, it really speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Thu, 06 November 2014, 12:11:29
I don't hate this board. I like the layout, feel and physical dimensions of it. Unfortunately there's nothing else on the market that's suitable for my needs at the moment, except the Ergodox which is unsuitable for other reasons.
I'm not sure how they're laid out internally, but frankly, if it was me, I'd have gutted the thing, frankensteined in a teensy, and had either Soarer or hasu's firmware running on it.

Again, the firmware works properly.

The problem are faulty switches, or the driver (the person using the board).

From https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Double_Letters, second suggested solution:
Quote
We have made enhancements to the Keyboard's Firmware that could fix the problem you are having.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 06 November 2014, 17:57:12
I'm not sure how they're laid out internally, but frankly, if it was me, I'd have gutted the thing, frankensteined in a teensy, and had either Soarer or hasu's firmware running on it.

I haven't looked inside myself but there's a partial pic at https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Reset (https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Reset)

That would end up being a really messy hack if I did it, the microprocessor is bloody tiny.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 06 November 2014, 18:29:47
Man this keyboard is really bad today.

It's so strange because from minute to minute it's good then horrible. It'll work for a paragraph perfectly, then all of a sudden you can't get a word to type properly. I find it hard to believe that switches would change so drastically over such a short time. There just isn't that much in a switch to be so different from minute to minute. Maybe one or two switches, but not the whole keybed.

IMO, it must be a hardware/firmware issue/flaky capacitor or something.

And when it doesn't work, it seems like every key on the keyboard is not working properly. Both missed and double presses all over the place. A timing issue or something. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

I'm contacting the guy I bought it off on ebay to see how I can return it. It's very close to unusable today.  :'(
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 07 November 2014, 01:05:55
Yeah, it's hard to believe cherry forgot to sprinkle fairy dust on that many switches.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Fri, 07 November 2014, 01:17:08
I'm not sure how they're laid out internally, but frankly, if it was me, I'd have gutted the thing, frankensteined in a teensy, and had either Soarer or hasu's firmware running on it.

I haven't looked inside myself but there's a partial pic at https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Reset (https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Reset)

That would end up being a really messy hack if I did it, the microprocessor is bloody tiny.
I'd go "lower level", by finding the row and column lines, and connecting direct to them, removing the original mcu and any other electronics other than switches and diodes from the equation entirely.  That would, of course, require significantly more disassembly than shown in that photo.

I had a look to see if anyone had reversed the OEM firmware, or produced an alternative; nothing obvious showed up.  If I get around to it, I might have a shot myself.

Meanwhile, for those who are still defending TEK, this is something that cropped up in my search above, and which indicates the level of the problem : http://www.cataclysmicmutation.com/2014/03/28/truly-unresponsive/


Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 07 November 2014, 02:35:03
I'm not sure how they're laid out internally, but frankly, if it was me, I'd have gutted the thing, frankensteined in a teensy, and had either Soarer or hasu's firmware running on it.

I haven't looked inside myself but there's a partial pic at https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Reset (https://trulyergonomic.com/store/troubleshooting--truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard#Reset)

That would end up being a really messy hack if I did it, the microprocessor is bloody tiny.
I'd go "lower level", by finding the row and column lines, and connecting direct to them, removing the original mcu and any other electronics other than switches and diodes from the equation entirely.  That would, of course, require significantly more disassembly than shown in that photo.

Yeah, I would do that as well, but it would still be messy! Unless, and this is unlikely, it has nice spots to connect to.

Quote
I had a look to see if anyone had reversed the OEM firmware, or produced an alternative; nothing obvious showed up.  If I get around to it, I might have a shot myself.

https://github.com/yurikhan/teck/ (https://github.com/yurikhan/teck/) has reversed the firmware, I believe his firmware is the one that the configurator on TE's site produces. I emailed Yuri and although he was helpful, he couldn't offer a solution that works when the same key produces both missed and double keypresses, other than writing my own debounce code which is a bit beyond me.

If you're capable, you could have a go... Pretty please??

Quote
Meanwhile, for those who are still defending TEK, this is something that cropped up in my search above, and which indicates the level of the problem : http://www.cataclysmicmutation.com/2014/03/28/truly-unresponsive/

Wow, great link. That's exactly what I'm experiencing. Especially when you get the doubled letter after the next one, say if you're trying to type "cat", you get "cact". It's crazy.

I'm starting to speculate that it might be some kind of passive on the board, like a cap or something. Because I don't believe that many switches could be faulty, and everyone's using "working" (at least for some) firmware. Maybe there's a cap that's borderline on the lemon boards somewhere.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Fri, 07 November 2014, 05:25:11
If you're capable, you could have a go... Pretty please??
Had a quick look.
The original code appears to be "debouncing" by reading a column, waiting for 75 µsecs, and then reading it again, ad infinitum, until they get two identical results.  Considering Cherry reckon 5ms debounce time*, it's almost guaranteed to fail horribly at some point.  Changing the wait period isn't going to help when your algorithm is fundamentally broken.

Yuri's code is much, much nicer, and far more likely to get a good result.  However, I'm led to believe that yuri's code is failing as well; I don't know the µC TE are using (or, indeed, the 80x1 architecture) very well, but my next guess would be an interrupt race condition or a need for more and better debouncing code.

I might also mention that the time a switch bounces generally *increases* as it gets older / more worn, another blow for TE's "breaking in" theory

Yeah, I would do that as well, but it would still be messy! Unless, and this is unlikely, it has nice spots to connect to.
On a keyboard, there's almost always a nice spot to connect to.  After all, at either end of each row and column, there's a bloody great through-hole mounted component.

The rows and columns should be pretty easy to spot, I found some (low resolution) photos of the TE PCB here - http://hieroglyphe.blog47.fc2.com/blog-entry-51.html

regards

Simon

* and who knows what the cheapo clones they are using require.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 07 November 2014, 06:04:33
If you're capable, you could have a go... Pretty please??
Had a quick look.
The original code appears to be "debouncing" by reading a column, waiting for 75 µsecs, and then reading it again, ad infinitum, until they get two identical results.  Considering Cherry reckon 5ms debounce time*, it's almost guaranteed to fail horribly at some point.  Changing the wait period isn't going to help when your algorithm is fundamentally broken.

Yuri's code is much, much nicer, and far more likely to get a good result.  However, I'm led to believe that yuri's code is failing as well; I don't know the µC TE are using (or, indeed, the 80x1 architecture) very well, but my next guess would be an interrupt race condition or a need for more and better debouncing code.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38943.msg759753#msg759753 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38943.msg759753#msg759753) says it's a Megawin MG84FL54BD, if that means anything to you. Haha how could it go wrong, with a name like "Megawin"!!

Quote
I might also mention that the time a switch bounces generally *increases* as it gets older / more worn, another blow for TE's "breaking in" theory

Yeah, I would do that as well, but it would still be messy! Unless, and this is unlikely, it has nice spots to connect to.
On a keyboard, there's almost always a nice spot to connect to.  After all, at either end of each row and column, there's a bloody great through-hole mounted component.

The rows and columns should be pretty easy to spot, I found some (low resolution) photos of the TE PCB here - http://hieroglyphe.blog47.fc2.com/blog-entry-51.html

regards

Simon

* and who knows what the cheapo clones they are using require.

True, I didn't think of connecting directly to the actual switches. I don't think I could fit a teensy neatly into the case though.

Good find of the pcb pics. Pity they're low res but still interesting. Another thing is that if I was putting a teensy in there, I could pretty easily add the extra keys for a 209 version while I'm at it.

edit: actually, thinking about it, the plate wouldn't have the correct cutouts. Damn.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 07 November 2014, 12:45:14
The original code appears to be "debouncing" by reading a column, waiting for 75 µsecs, and then reading it again, ad infinitum, until they get two identical results.
Amazing!
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: nomaded on Fri, 07 November 2014, 12:47:17
To me, this is sounding like a flaky solder connection on the controller. If you're willing to open it up (instead of trying to attempt an RMA to TECK or a return to the original buyer), I would check all the solder joints, especially the ones around the controller.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Azteca on Fri, 07 November 2014, 12:49:35
Quote
I'm starting to speculate that it might be some kind of passive on the board, like a cap or something. Because I don't believe that many switches could be faulty, and everyone's using "working" (at least for some) firmware.

You are all overthinking and speculating too much. :confused:

Either you bought a used board that plunged from a tall building and it is broken, or your only problem is faulty switches.

Test all switches and mark faulty switches, open the keyboard, replace faulty switches, upgrade to newest firmware, and have a board that works and is of a great ergo design. :thumb:

Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: nomaded on Fri, 07 November 2014, 12:59:27
My experience with TECK hasn't been horrible like others have had.

Not too long after the TECKs were actually shipping, I bought two 109s -- one for home and one for the office. The one that's at home is still working great. I use it every day and have no complaints about it. The one that went to the office also worked fine, for a few months. But then I found that I could no longer actuate the 0/) key consistently. At my normal typing pace, sometimes it would actuate, but more likely than not, nothing would output. If I hit the key straight up/down with even pressure, the chances of it actuating would increase to near 100%. After researching this problem, I tried many things to fix this one key, but nothing would change this behavior.

So, after owning this keyboard for about 10 months, I decided to contact TECK to get a replacement, but I did not receive any reply from them. After trying to contact them off and on for about 3 months, I finally got an RMA email from them. I sent the 109 back to them and got a 209 as a replacement (this was soon after they starting shipping the 207/209 and released a way to update the firmware -- but no custom layout yet). Since then, the 209 has been going strong, with no complaints. Even though it's not my daily driver at the office anymore, it's still hooked up to one of the other computers at home, and I type on it several times a week.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 07 November 2014, 16:16:24
Quote
I'm starting to speculate that it might be some kind of passive on the board, like a cap or something. Because I don't believe that many switches could be faulty, and everyone's using "working" (at least for some) firmware.

You are all overthinking and speculating too much. :confused:

Either you bought a used board that plunged from a tall building and it is broken, or your only problem is faulty switches.

Test all switches and mark faulty switches, open the keyboard, replace faulty switches, upgrade to newest firmware, and have a board that works and is of a great ergo design. :thumb:
Yeah, desoldering the entire board is a trivial matter...?
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 07 November 2014, 16:18:44
Yeah, desoldering the entire board is a trivial matter...?
Lesson: don’t feed the “baby whining troller”.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Sat, 08 November 2014, 00:34:36
My experience with TECK hasn't been horrible like others have had.

<snip>

I decided to contact TECK to get a replacement, but I did not receive any reply from them. After trying to contact them off and on for about 3 months, I finally got an RMA email from them.

<snip>

That would be considered pretty horrible support if it was anyone but TE. But anything's better than nothing, right?
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Sat, 08 November 2014, 03:09:54
You are all overthinking and speculating too much.
I don't think so. If nothing else, statistics would seem to disprove it being a purely "faulty switches" issue

1 - You'd expect the same percentage of broken keyswitches on TE boards as other boards using the same keyswitches.  That's doesn't seem to be the case, at least going by the internet moaning, and I think we can expect that to be constant across people buying expensive mechanical keyboards.
2 - You'd expect a more-or-less even distribution of broken keyswitches across TE boards themselves.  Remember, we're talking about 10% of switches behaving erratically on affected keyboards, not just one switch.  Again, this doesn't seem to be the case.

There's manufacturing issues involved; that one person can get one board that works perfectly and another that has 10-15% of switches faulty almost certainly proves it. But I'm convinced there are still debouncing issues; the symptoms are classic.

Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 13 November 2014, 16:06:25
I also think it's definitely a firmware problem, because the keys are (rarely) working perfectly.

I do understand why it might register double presses if the debounce time is set too short, but what I don't really understand is how it can miss presses.

I would have thought that no matter how long you set the debouncing time, eventually the key would settle on being "on" and register a press. Does anyone have any explanation on why it doesn't?   :confused:
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: jacobolus on Thu, 13 November 2014, 16:59:05
I do understand why it might register double presses if the debounce time is set too short, but what I don't really understand is how it can miss presses. I would have thought that no matter how long you set the debouncing time, eventually the key would settle on being "on" and register a press. Does anyone have any explanation on why it doesn't?   :confused:
No, if you have a combination of really bad debouncing routine (or a really bad switch contact, or both), then it’s possible that you’ll press a key but the contact will keep bouncing a little bit throughout the press, and the firmware will never quite consider it pressed.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Fri, 14 November 2014, 02:48:26
There's loads of ways it can happen.

No matter how it's done, the basic idea of debouncing is that you take a glitchy signal and watch it until it stops glitching.  There's a load of ways of doing this, but they all involve somehow detecting the "edges" where a signal goes from being bouncy to being solid and back again. 

The simplest way to do this is to take two simultaneous samples and see if they are the same.  The problem with this is what period to leave between samples.  Sampling theory says that you have to sample at at least twice the frequency to accurately map a waveform, but key bouncing can be anything from a few tens of hertz up to tens of megahertz, and you can't accurately sample a range like that with two samples at any one fixed period.  You'll probably eventually detect keypresses, but you'll almost certainly get a "bouncy" result and miss keypresses if the user doesn't leave the keys pressed for long enough.

"Okay", says the intelligent developer, "I'll accept that I probably can't accurately sample the signal, but if I sample continuously over a period of time, surely probability will mean that I get a more-or-less accurate result if I jigger about with the time period and number of samples", and, indeed, this is the case.  The tradeoffs here are :

- number of samples in a time period - more is better in terms of accurately detecting HF bounce, downside is required memory and processing time which might be tight on a keyboard controller.
- time period - again, longer is better in terms of detecting bounce (cherry reckon 5ms), but longer periods increase keyboard latency and, again, the possibility of missing keypresses.  Considering that we usually sample a column at a time, and a 102 key keyboard might have 18 columns, at 5ms debounce time you could well miss keypresses of under 100ms length, or even longer (see below).

The "fixed time interval" aspect of this approach also increases the possibility of missing keypresses.  Let's assume we're sampling accurately enough to detect all bounciness in the keyswitches, over a period of 5ms.  Now assume that for a single keypress, in sample period 1, the signal goes "clean" after the very first sample - we have one "zero" and a number (perhaps thousands) of "one"s.  The signal is properly considered as "bouncy" and ignored.  We go off and scan our other columns, and the next time round, as the key is still pressed, we start sampling "ones"s.  Now, even if the key *stays* pressed, we've added 90+ms of latency to the keypress.  That's bad enough, but let's now assume that the user lets go of the key *just* as we're about to stop sampling. So we get thousands of "one"s, and a single "zero".  Again, a "bouncy" signal, and we've missed a keypress of 90+ms length.

This fixed time interval also introduces *ordering* issues.  We might have 2 (or more, usually up to 8) keypresses detected on a single column in a single scan / debounce cycle.  But what order should we report them in?  One might have started 90+ms ago, and the other a nanosecond ago, but we have no way of knowing which.  So we report them in "row order" and hope for the best.

In short, better, but not nearly good enough.

Next approach is the "sliding window" approach.  It's similar to the above approach, but rather than sampling continuously for a period, we cycle through the columns taking one sample at a time, pushing the results into something like a push-down queue or a circular buffer (per column, obviously).  Then, as soon as a single "row" reading goes "clean", we report that change of state.  This largely does away with the ordering issues, and, assuming enough samples, most of the missed keys.  Tuning is done by changing the inter-sample time (i.e a delay loop at the end of each sampling cycle) and / or changing the number of samples.

Let's assume a 4 sample window taken over the classic 5ms period, with 4 bits per sample.  "s" is the sample number, 1, 2, 3 & 4 are the 4 bits sampled for this "column".
Code: [Select]
s : 1 2 3 4
1 : 0 0 0 0
2 : 0 0 1 0
3 : 0 0 0 0
4 : 0 0 1 1
5 : 0 0 1 0
6 : 1 0 1 1
7 : 0 0 1 1
8 : 1 0 1 1
9 : 1 0 1 1
a : 1 0 0 1
b : 1 0 0 0
c : 1 0 0 0
d : 0 0 0 0
At s = 0, no keys are pressed.
at s = 1, key 3 is pressed and starts bouncing.
At s = 4, key 3 goes "clean" and key 4 starts bouncing
At s = 6, key 4 goes clean, and key 1 starts bouncing.
at s = 7, key 3 has 4 "clean" samples (s = 4, 5, 6, 7), so we send a "key down" message (5ms latency from first "clean" sample)
at s = 8, key 1 goes clean
at s = 9, key 4 has 4 clean samples (s = 6, 7, 8, 9), so we send a key down message
s = a, key 3 samples 0, no longer has 4 clean samples, we send a key up message
s = b, key 1 has 4 clean samples (s = 8, 9 , a, b), key down message.  key 4 samples 0, key up message
s = d, key 1 samples 0, key up message

You'll note that there is latency to the key down messages, but not to the key up messages.  This can be rectified by requiring n zero samples before changing state, at the cost of possibly missing "quick" key down-up-down movements.

Typically, we'd integrate over 8, 16, or 32 samples, and, of course, 8 rows per column.  More samples = more memory and processing overhead (although the processing is all bitwise ops), less = more chance of missing keys and bounces.

The above is largely the approach taken by yuri's firmware, but I'm almost certain it's only integrating over 3 samples. Which would probably explain the missing keys issue - 3 samples isn't enough.

Once you've taken all this into account, I don't think the TE has a full nkro matrix (the firmware appears to be checking for ghosts; that said, teh PCB appears to have diodes for every key - mistake in reversing the firmware, or historical artefact in the firmware - who knows?), so you might have the firmware deliberately ignoring keypresses; combine this with slightly flaky debouncing and that could lead to missed keys as well.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Fri, 14 November 2014, 04:38:44
Thanks for the great explanation, tufty. At least now I have more of an idea why it isn't working.

You would be my hero if you could fix the firmware though. Don't you want to be my hero??  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: tufty on Fri, 14 November 2014, 09:37:43
Unfortunately, I don't have a tested working debounce routine I can legally give you.  But what's probably needed is something like this more or less untested code.


Code: [Select]
#include <iostream>

#define byte char
#define TABLE_SIZE 16

byte debounce(byte debounced_value, byte sample) {
  byte prev, current, changes, i, new_tail, unstable_bits, stable_bits;

  // The circular buffer should be initialised in code
  static byte table[TABLE_SIZE] = {0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff, 0x00, 0xff};
  static byte tail = 0;

  // Get the current sample and stuff it into the circular buffer
  table[tail] = sample;

  // Move the tail onwards
  new_tail = (tail + 1) % TABLE_SIZE;

  // Loop through the circular buffer finding bits which have flipped
  for (i = new_tail, current = table[i], changes = 0x0; i != tail; i = (i + 1) % TABLE_SIZE) {
    prev = current;
    current = table[i];
   
    changes |= prev ^ current;
  }
  tail = new_tail;

  // Changes is now a bitmap of bits which are unstable in the buffer.
  // We take unstable bits from the current debounced value
  unstable_bits = debounced_value & changes;
  // And the rest from the current sample
  stable_bits = sample & !changes;
  return  unstable_bits | stable_bits;
}

int main (int argc, char** argv) { 
  // Current debounced value
  byte debounced_value = 0;
  byte sample = 0;

  while (1) {
    std::cin >> std::hex >> sample;
    debounced_value = debounce(debounced_value, sample);
    std::cout << "debounced 0x" << std::hex << static_cast<uint16_t>(debounced_value);
    std::cout << std::endl;
  }

  return debounced_value;
}


[/spoiler]

Prolly wanna lose all that ghosting detection (see https://github.com/yurikhan/teck/blob/master/TrulyErgonomic_209_v3.lst.annotated#L344) if the board is really NKRO, too.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: pepijndevos on Mon, 08 December 2014, 02:00:18
So has anyone tried the modified firmware?

[edit] it seems the changes where merged by TE with they permission. I just flashed a new firmware. I'm curious if it's any better.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Sc0tTy on Mon, 08 December 2014, 15:37:08
So has anyone tried the modified firmware?

[edit] it seems the changes where merged by TE with they permission. I just flashed a new firmware. I'm curious if it's any better.

No I haven't tried it, I don't want to brick the keyboard if it doesn't work :p

What do you mean by your last comment? (TE's website still says v3.40 and v4.0 for their firmware versions)
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: MykB77 on Tue, 16 December 2014, 01:19:39
Just used my TECK 209 after non-use for a while.  The 'n' was not registering and occasionally doubling.  The right space bar was frequently doubling.

A drop of iso-propyl alcohol into the depressed switch once the cap was removed and repeated pressing until it dried fixed both perfectly.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 17 December 2014, 23:27:33
Just used my TECK 209 after non-use for a while.  The 'n' was not registering and occasionally doubling.  The right space bar was frequently doubling.

A drop of iso-propyl alcohol into the depressed switch once the cap was removed and repeated pressing until it dried fixed both perfectly.

Is that an isopropyl alcohol spray bottle that you use, or an actual drop with a dropper?
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Wed, 17 December 2014, 23:28:30
So has anyone tried the modified firmware?

[edit] it seems the changes where merged by TE with they permission. I just flashed a new firmware. I'm curious if it's any better.

Which modified firmware do you mean??
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: MykB77 on Thu, 18 December 2014, 00:34:01
Just used my TECK 209 after non-use for a while.  The 'n' was not registering and occasionally doubling.  The right space bar was frequently doubling.

A drop of iso-propyl alcohol into the depressed switch once the cap was removed and repeated pressing until it dried fixed both perfectly.

Is that an isopropyl alcohol spray bottle that you use, or an actual drop with a dropper?
Just a dropper and only a small drop.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: MykB77 on Thu, 18 December 2014, 00:37:12
So has anyone tried the modified firmware?

[edit] it seems the changes where merged by TE with they permission. I just flashed a new firmware. I'm curious if it's any better.

Which modified firmware do you mean??
You can create and download a different layout as a custom firmware file on the trulyergonomic.com website and flash it onto the keyboard.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: clickclack123 on Thu, 18 December 2014, 21:45:13
So has anyone tried the modified firmware?

[edit] it seems the changes where merged by TE with they permission. I just flashed a new firmware. I'm curious if it's any better.

Which modified firmware do you mean??
You can create and download a different layout as a custom firmware file on the trulyergonomic.com website and flash it onto the keyboard.
That's what I'm using because I use the dvorak layout.
Title: Re: Truly Ergonomic missing right arrow key presses
Post by: Sc0tTy on Fri, 30 January 2015, 13:20:51
So I put my 209 and 229 next to each other and did a comparison, check it out here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68255.msg1618728