[IC] GMK Modern Dolch 2 - GB live, join at GMKModo.com

[RETURNISO]

Awesome Janglad

[rjo21]

Already have R1 but definitely in for Alternate.  Maybe Clout too.

[dorf]

Would it be possible to add AltGr to the norde-kit?

[dom]

It's gonna break some records 

[victorpre]

RAMA caps please

Also was thinking about this but actually is better but not have it for the sake of my wallet

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[kronograf]

Are those the new modern mods?

[alpaone]

100% in, although I am sad that it‘s missing the modern Esc (⎋) in the alternate color.

[Aveeux]

It's finally back! No way I'm missing it this time.

[sevenseacat]

Colemak available?? :pray:

[udller]

having an extra b in the clout kit would be nice.  but its all looking nice so far.

[janglad]

The decision to put the 2nd 2.25u shift and the 2u shift in the ISO kit is questionable IMHO.

Personal take here, but I think it's counter-intuitive to strip base kit compatibility that we've established and accepted for a long time now for the sake of base kit pricing.
Splitting numpad and pricing at 1000MOQ is one thing, since it's a relatively large kit, but moving commonly used shifts/PGUP/DN/Home/1.5u Super/FN/1u Alt that aren't commonly used with ISO into the ISO kit seems silly to me. Also the decision to go Mac-only for the OS keys in the icon mod kit seems strange.

"Clout" is just a bad name for a kit. I'm sorry.

Otherwise, it's cool to see this set coming back seeing how popular it was during and since the first GB.

2u shift layouts have never been popular, 660 has lost a lot of popularity too. Clueboard used to be big but only big 660 GB I can think of in recent times is the Volcano. FYI stuff like the 1.5u Super bottom row, 175 Function and different 65 layout were added not moved, they weren't included in R1 at all. Mac only was decided after it proved most popular on a poll for Modern Dolch Light.

[janglad]

Someday, if you ran Clout, but used the red instead of the blue, I’d buy that too

The whole "base within a base" is a bit of an experiment for us, I wouldn't be comfortable with running 3 base kits at once.

I love my MoDo R1 to death, and I have the shine to show for it. In for Clout to replace my alphas.

Glad to see an alternative cyan accent in that kit — I hope it's a slightly different color to R1, since the cyan color is the only thing I didn't like about R1: it was a tad too light and greenish for my taste.

It's the same cyan from R1.

Deliciousness. And there will be a desk mat as well?

Maybe

having an extra b in the clout kit would be nice.  but its all looking nice so far.

Hmm this might be possible, I'll think about it.

[alper_maestro]

Count me in!

[bukowski]

Again that International support. I appreciate you guys so fking much!

[hkiri]

Something I'm still wondering with your kitting: Why aren't you including the ISO necessary keys in the Norde kit?
(yeah there are some weirdos who use ANSI-DE etc. but that's a minority within a minority)

[Prelim]

no ISO in the base set?

I honestly prefer it like the R1 base set:


Enviado do meu Mi A2 Lite através do Tapatalk

[janglad]

no ISO in the base set?

I honestly prefer it like the R1 base set:

Show Image

Enviado do meu Mi A2 Lite através do Tapatalk

That kit was $140 priced at 500 MOQ, this one will be ~30% cheaper for most people since ANSI 60-TKL are by far the most popular layouts + the current setup is way cheaper for 40% users too. Modern Dolch Light used pretty much the exact same kits and had a $34,99 Numbers kit, so $134,98 for US numpad users once you add in Standard. Kits didn't sell enough back when R1 ran to do the breakdown/amount of options we have now hence the update.

[JKratos]

im in,i just have one question, one question only, starts june 3, until when? july 3?

[NOLA]

Oh snap. And here's my next set. Would be nice to see Dharma make an appearance "soon" after.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[eniigma]

Is the alternate kit light grey color the same as the one from MoDo Light? Wondering if I need to buy it again if it’s basically the same

[ackzot]

From my inexperienced eye, it seems a lot of thought was placed into stripping down the base kit to support the most common layouts with the fewest keys in the aim of making an attractive base kit price. This is also at the cost of flexibility as those who slightly deviate from the common layouts will end up paying quite a bit more for 1 or 2 keys.

Traditionally, ISO and Numpad users felt this the most. Now expanded to 660c and people who prefer slightly different 65 or 60 layouts, F13 TKLs, etc. At least with ISO and numpad they get a group (a kit of keys) that are useful. For some of the others, they have to debate purchasing a full kit to get 1 key or a few keys.

For example:
1.   Need a Function key instead of caps? Need to buy a complete child kit.
2.   Need another 2.25 shift to support the second Tab in Modern Kit to support two mod set ups? You would need to buy another complete kit for one Shift key.
3.   Need an F13? You would need to buy a kit for one key.
4.   On your 65 you like having R3 PgUp and R4 PgDn? Buy a kit.

There is an elegant logic to not paying for “extra” keys and stripping them out from the base kit. But it feels that the burden is now over-shifting to child kits. Maybe that’s the intent; ie child kit buyers need to pay the high premium as the base is for the majority. But it really does leave a sense that value and “bang for the buck” are bring destroyed from the base kit.

I suspect at this time, the layouts are finalized so feedback is limited. I will buy the base and several child kits. I hope future design doesn’t just focus on base kit price, but the delicate balancing act between price and value.

[Waterdrinker]

deskmat?

[janglad]

Oh snap. And here's my next set. Would be nice to see Dharma make an appearance "soon" after.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I hope so too haha, all depends on how I like the next protos.

Is the alternate kit light grey color the same as the one from MoDo Light? Wondering if I need to buy it again if it’s basically the same

It is the same as the ModoL modifier colour yes!

From my inexperienced eye, it seems a lot of thought was placed into stripping down the base kit to support the most common layouts with the fewest keys in the aim of making an attractive base kit price. This is also at the cost of flexibility as those who slightly deviate from the common layouts will end up paying quite a bit more for 1 or 2 keys.

Traditionally, ISO and Numpad users felt this the most. Now expanded to 660c and people who prefer slightly different 65 or 60 layouts, F13 TKLs, etc. At least with ISO and numpad they get a group (a kit of keys) that are useful. For some of the others, they have to debate purchasing a full kit to get 1 key or a few keys.

For example:
1.   Need a Function key instead of caps? Need to buy a complete child kit.
2.   Need another 2.25 shift to support the second Tab in Modern Kit to support two mod set ups? You would need to buy another complete kit for one Shift key.
3.   Need an F13? You would need to buy a kit for one key.
4.   On your 65 you like having R3 PgUp and R4 PgDn? Buy a kit.

There is an elegant logic to not paying for “extra” keys and stripping them out from the base kit. But it feels that the burden is now over-shifting to child kits. Maybe that’s the intent; ie child kit buyers need to pay the high premium as the base is for the majority. But it really does leave a sense that value and “bang for the buck” are bring destroyed from the base kit.

I suspect at this time, the layouts are finalized so feedback is limited. I will buy the base and several child kits. I hope future design doesn’t just focus on base kit price, but the delicate balancing act between price and value.

1,3 and 4 are all keys that weren't even an option in R1. Like I said before 660 has become way less popular than it was when R1 happened. Previous base kit was $140 in GB after the price drop. Looking at MoDoL pricing Standard + Numbers was $134,98, in the case of Standard + Addition it'd be $129,98. I can't think of any boards that use a 2u shift, 2.25u shift, alternate 65% cluster, ... with a numpad. You would need both for a numpad board with ISO but looking at data from previous GBs that's a tiny percentage and does not weigh up against 60%-TKL ANSI and 40% users.

[endjy]

I believe that the r1 has num and iso and 660 support for $140, but for r2 it seems to be 99+35+30= $164?? I don't get it.

[Prelim]

I believe that the r1 has num and iso and 660 support for $140, but for r2 it seems to be 99+35+30= $164?? I don't get it.

indeed, cost-wise R1 was a better option than R2. Seems like this is a way to get more profit of it...

[janglad]

I believe that the r1 has num and iso and 660 support for $140, but for r2 it seems to be 99+35+30= $164?? I don't get it.

I believe that the r1 has num and iso and 660 support for $140, but for r2 it seems to be 99+35+30= $164?? I don't get it.

indeed, cost-wise R1 was a better option than R2. Seems like this is a way to get more profit of it...

Yes but no boards use both numpad and 660 shifts. Price/key will always be lower the bigger you make the base kit with GMK but that doesn't matter if most users store away half the keys. This is cheaper for far more people (like I said 60-TKL and ANSI and 40% users make up the majority of users).

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Re: red clout 
Yeah, would be too complex for now. I mean, GMK's sending simple base kits at lower numbers to wrong continents. Like 2 years from now or whatever.

[ackzot]

1,3 and 4 are all keys that weren't even an option in R1. Like I said before 660 has become way less popular than it was when R1 happened. Previous base kit was $140 in GB after the price drop. Looking at MoDoL pricing Standard + Numbers was $134,98, in the case of Standard + Addition it'd be $129,98. I can't think of any boards that use a 2u shift, 2.25u shift, alternate 65% cluster, ... with a numpad. You would need both for a numpad board with ISO but looking at data from previous GBs that's a tiny percentage and does not weigh up against 60%-TKL ANSI and 40% users.

Thank you for the response. I believe you and dixie took a lot of care in your decisions. The point I was making is that by increasing usefulness ratio in the base kit, it is decreasing the usefulness ratio in child kits. And then making those keys more expensive due to the associated manufacturing costs on child kits. I think F13 in the base kit makes more sense. 

I guess another way I think about it is that Modern Dolch is a prestige set of the community. I am probably wrong, but I dont think Modern Dolch depends on a lowest base price possible for success.  An additional $5-$10 premium in the base kit to add more flexibility to the set may be worth it. I don't think people like being nickle-and-dime'd on trying to pick up child kits where, depending on kit, a substantial number of the keys may be useless.

On a final note, this kit model pricing model has been used before. And so if it has worked for Dixie in the past, I can understand the use of the same kit model going forward.  Feedback is just feedback. Designers and vendors make the tough decisions knowing not everyone is going to be happy.

[Brawlbeard]

Please add 1.25u and 1.5u Alt Gr Keycaps to the NorDE Kit, to fully support european ISO Layouts.
Would be in for Standard, Addition, Numbers, Aesthetic, Alternate, Modern and Norde.

[dumpling420]

F13 support in the base kit would be nice for those of us who own TKLs with F13, just so we won't have to buy a whole other kit for one key.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

[Hell-es]

For me same sad story as with 9009, modo light etc ...

Many kits with less MOQ can put Numpad and Basic ISO into a Base for around ~140 €

Look at what Masterpiece can achieve for 140€ or Classic blue for 144€ ...

Metaverse was 125 - just 18€ more on mykeyb with numpad and basic iso

9009 was 177 € if you wanted iso keys and numpad - modo light almost the same and i think more kits were sold.


This won‘t change here i think?

For me the oohh do cheap base is a bit sad ... compare to many other running sets ...
I really would like to have MoDo putthe kit design and pricing doesn‘t really make me happy and as with 9009 i‘m really struggling what todo

[eniigma]

+1 for F13 in base

[SirTimmyTimbit]

I believe that the r1 has num and iso and 660 support for $140, but for r2 it seems to be 99+35+30= $164?? I don't get it.

$165 to get R1 base compatibility that was offered at $140 does seem a little steep.

But I agree with Janglad's point. If TKL, 60, 65% makes up most of the user base, it makes more sense to save this majority group $40 and to charge the minority 96/100% group an extra $25.

That of course assumes that R1 base kit would still be $140 today. Dixie full size kits are usually around $125 right?

I can get on board with ISO support in the base kit even though I don't use ISO, all depends on the % of ISO users. I don't see myself going back to 100% anytime soon so I'd rather have a smaller base set for $40 cheaper.

[janglad]

For me same sad story as with 9009, modo light etc ...

Many kits with less MOQ can put Numpad and Basic ISO into a Base for around ~140 €

Look at what Masterpiece can achieve for 140€ or Classic blue for 144€ ...

Metaverse was 125 - just 18€ more on mykeyb with numpad and basic iso

9009 was 177 € if you wanted iso keys and numpad - modo light almost the same and i think more kits were sold.


This won‘t change here i think?

For me the oohh do cheap base is a bit sad ... compare to many other running sets ...
I really would like to have MoDo putthe kit design and pricing doesn‘t really make me happy and as with 9009 i‘m really struggling what todo

Again though how many people in this hobby use both ISO and numpad. This +10x less than how many people need just Standard or Standard + Obscure/Numbers/Addition which is what the kits were designed around. For all of those combos it comes out cheaper than R1.

[Seoulcialite]

Wasn't a fan of MoDo at first but it's been growing on me.

[Prelim]

Why even running this IC, if users opinions don't count at all, and things are already 100% set up to start the GB?

[LRQ]

Why even running this IC, if users opinions don't count at all, and things are already 100% set up to start the GB?

If its a short GB, probably to get people enough time to get ready to buy? IC doesn't always mean a designer has to take feedback, it's to see if people would buy the set. I'm sure janglad has way more information on what people actually buy from his previous GBs than small asks by people who have edge case needs.

[Prelim]

ohh I see, I just forgot how a business this turn out to be!
Interest checks don't longer mean sh1t and are just a way do create more hype for a GB? Guess it wasn't all so fake 5 years ago...

[CrazyAssMonkey]

ohh I see, I just forgot how a business this turn out to be!
Interest checks don't longer mean sh1t and are just a way do create more hype for a GB? Guess it wasn't all so fake 5 years ago...

I mean MoDo doesn't really need an interest check I'd say, it's that kind of kit. I do see where you are coming from about what typical IC are.

This does follow MoDo Light kit setup which worked so I assume Jang and Dixie decided to maintain the previous scheme.

[jedidood]

I for one would love the modo light R2, but I am definitely in for this as well.

[ackzot]

ohh I see, I just forgot how a business this turn out to be!
Interest checks don't longer mean sh1t and are just a way do create more hype for a GB? Guess it wasn't all so fake 5 years ago...

Maybe there needs to be another tag besides IC or GB. IC for many means both gauging interest and getting feedback. There are some interest checks that benefit from feedback. There are some other interest checks that are more of a heads up so people get ready and the GB runner/vendor don't need much feedback or end up going in circles over the same feedback.

I for one do appreciate the heads up that a Modern Dolch is coming down the pipe.

[CrazyAssMonkey]

ohh I see, I just forgot how a business this turn out to be!
Interest checks don't longer mean sh1t and are just a way do create more hype for a GB? Guess it wasn't all so fake 5 years ago...

Maybe there needs to be another tag besides IC or GB. IC for many means both gauging interest and getting feedback. There are some interest checks that benefit from feedback. There are some other interest checks that are more of a heads up so people get ready and the GB runner/vendor don't need much feedback or end up going in circles over the same feedback.

I for one do appreciate the heads up that a Modern Dolch is coming down the pipe.

Isn't this post technically gauging our interest on the set via the interactions and views? I also do appreciate the heads up.

[ackzot]

But I agree with Janglad's point. If TKL, 60, 65% makes up most of the user base, it makes more sense to save this majority group $40 and to charge the minority 96/100% group an extra $25.

That of course assumes that R1 base kit would still be $140 today. Dixie full size kits are usually around $125 right?

I can get on board with ISO support in the base kit even though I don't use ISO, all depends on the % of ISO users. I don't see myself going back to 100% anytime soon so I'd rather have a smaller base set for $40 cheaper.

There is an elegant logic to making the base kit as inexpensive as possible while serving the most common layouts. It delivers real value to the most people.

It just shifts a lot of price premium to the purchasers of child kits. If the child kits were price efficient, it wouldn't hurt as much. But each child kit usually has an additional $10 overhead by the manufacturer for sorting. So if I purchased Addition, Aesthetic, Modern, and Numbers, I pay this overhead 4x, once for each child kit. In addition, child kit order quantities are lower and don't get much in pricing breaks compared to the base set. But going the other way doesn't make sense either. You cannot create a giant set and charge $200 for people to get in.

I just wish that if the base price increased by $5-10, they could add more compatibility saving some folks from buying a child kit (f13, 660 support, etc). Marketing wise, we perceive $99 as being much cheaper than $100. Dixie and janglad are smart. They have real market data to drive their decisions. I am just a guy in the peanut gallery so I'll shut up now.

[SirTimmyTimbit]

I agree with you ackzot, there's plenty of room for fine tuning. They've been doing just that judging from the changes from set to set.


Doesn't hurt to air our preference either.

[IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES]

Someday, on some monster set like this where everyone knows you can price the base at 1000MOQ, get a quote for a base kit with no F-row. 90$ is totally possible, right? Are there really that many F-row users now?

(disclaimer: I'm base, f-row, numpad, split bar kinda guy)

[Nugget]

I love this set! I've never done an IC/GB before, so I'm not too sure if it's too late for my feedback:

1. Have you ever considered updating the main legend font for Modern Dolch? The rounded letters are a nice homage to the original set, but I feel some sharper edges would suit it well. I imagine it's too late to change something like this.
2. Similar to the previous, I think a few of the modifier legends could use updating, like the arrow keys. Maybe this could be sold as a separate set? Or with the "Modern" pack. In particular, some legends like these feel more modern to me:




Sorry for the poor quality pictures, hopefully you see what I mean. I think the rounded, bulbous appearance of a lot of the legends betrays its more modern feeling. After all, that's the purpose of the "Modern" addon pack!

[depletedvespene]

For me same sad story as with 9009, modo light etc ...

Many kits with less MOQ can put Numpad and Basic ISO into a Base for around ~140 €

Look at what Masterpiece can achieve for 140€ or Classic blue for 144€ ...

Metaverse was 125 - just 18€ more on mykeyb with numpad and basic iso

9009 was 177 € if you wanted iso keys and numpad - modo light almost the same and i think more kits were sold.


This won‘t change here i think?

For me the oohh do cheap base is a bit sad ... compare to many other running sets ...
I really would like to have MoDo putthe kit design and pricing doesn‘t really make me happy and as with 9009 i‘m really struggling what todo

Again though how many people in this hobby use both ISO and numpad.

More than you think! But this attitude of pushing "ISO" (a misnomer if there's any) and numpad users aside, and then point the finger at their absence to justifiy the omission certainly does not help matters (and that's before taking into account obvious errors in the "ISO supporting" kits).

[n.rdy]

yeah, i'm interested.

[Surostu]

I like the more minimal base. Breaks down the barrier to entry for us noob keyboard fans with regular layouts. I hope this results in 2500+ kits for you, especially if you do that day 1 mod light discount again

Ive been talking about this for a while with friends. If we could reduce the cost of these high quality sets for the majority, the uptake would increase and the community would grow quicker. More people in the community = more potential for growth. Eventually, cheaper bases like this will pave the way for reducing the price on things like child kits and the more hardcore of us will be happy. Keep it up mate! Taking the hobby forwards and not back!!

[alper_maestro]

I like the more minimal base. Breaks down the barrier to entry for us noob keyboard fans with regular layouts. I hope this results in 2500+ kits for you, especially if you do that day 1 mod light discount again

Ive been talking about this for a while with friends. If we could reduce the cost of these high quality sets for the majority, the uptake would increase and the community would grow quicker. More people in the community = more potential for growth. Eventually, cheaper bases like this will pave the way for reducing the price on things like child kits and the more hardcore of us will be happy. Keep it up mate! Taking the hobby forwards and not back!!

It's definitely correct what you say. The cheaper the basic set, the better for most.