Is a TrulyErgonomic worth getting?

[c64]

I've read several reviews and post on this forum regarding the TE keyboard.  From what I gather, the company didn't do a very good job early on with communication to its customers.   Is this still an issue for people who bought the keyboard?  How is the quality/reliability so far?   Is it worth getting?   The things that make me want to get one:  size, mechanical keys, ergo design.

[kurplop]

There are many things about the TE keyboard I like very much.
   I find the split design to be much more comfortable than a straight keyboard.
   The feel is very solid. 
   I don't have any special remapping needs and find the layout to be fine, although when I use other keyboards I forget the shift enter and control keys are not where I'm now use to them being.
   I like the linear columns and the arched rows.
   I like the narrow width which allows the pointing device to be closer.

Now for the bad news-
   If you have a Mac you can probably expect issues with it being recognized when starting up. I regularly have to reconnect it when awaking from sleep.
   They still haven't made good on there promise to provide remapping software.  I sent them a query about that a month ago, still waiting for a reply. I'm not holding my breath.

Would I recommend you buying one?
     That's a tough one.  I really hate to support a company with either a lack of business communication etiquette, or worse yet, a lack of integrity.  As far as I know, they have stood behind their refund policy but their lack of communication about important operating issues is unacceptable.

 I would suggest you try one out before you choose to buy one. Where are you located? Maybe there is another TE user near you that would let you give their's  a try.
   

[Piro]

I think the keyboard itself shows promise, but their customer support is absolutely useless, they simply never respond to queries, even to someone who already bought a keyboard.

That's enough to put me off it, sadly.

[c64]

I would suggest you try one out before you choose to buy one. Where are you located? Maybe there is another TE user near you that would let you give their's  a try.
 

I live in the New Orleans area.  Its a shame how bad the company is, its amazing they are still around.   I cant find a similar ergo mechanical keyboard from anyone else.

[Icarium]

Soon there will be the ergo dox. (I feel like that is my answer to everything lately.)

[c64]

Soon there will be the ergo dox. (I feel like that is my answer to everything lately.)

Based on the website, it looks like a DIY keyboard.  Is anyone in the process of manufacturing them?

[Tezkat]

I've been using a brown switch 109 as my primary home keyboard for... hmm... almost 8 months now? It's very comfortable overall and really only took a week or so to get used to the odd layout. Great for writing, coding, and gaming (or at least... games that allow you to remap keys--otherwise it's potentially horrible). Switching back and forth to normal keyboards does get annoying at times, though.

Personally, I've found the build quality to be excellent. It's a solidly built piece of hardware (and actually heavier than it looks--it's a very noticeable extra load on the laptop bag when I carry it around with me).

They had a quality control issue early on with some of their switches that caused them to outright discontinue production with blues and reds. That's not something that particularly bothers me, as I quite like the browns, but I know a lot of folks here are picky about their switches.


The company is a little mom and pop (well, husband and wife) operation with a terrible grasp of customer relations. They're pretty slow to reply to anything (if at all), and the inventor is quite full of himself, but what I've read here and on other boards suggests that those with actual hardware problems managed successful RMAs... eventually.


Am I happy with my purchase? Absolutely. It's a great keyboard.


Would I buy another? Right now, the answer is no due to their failure to deliver the promised firmware reprogramming. I personally find their default layout to be suboptimal, and I'd need to use the extra on machines where I don't necessarily have the ability to remap keys in software.


It's not a cheap keyboard by any means, but the simple fact of that matter is that for those three things you cited as being awesome about the keyboard--small form factor, mechanical switches, and ergonomic matrix layout--there's little else on the market. The Kinesis is a good 4" wider and more expensive (unless purchased used or refurb). The upcoming ergodox potentially fits the bill but doesn't exist beyond the prototype stage and looks likely to run upwards of twice the price once all is said and done.

Ultimately, it's an issue of a bad company putting out a great product... and having to decide whether or not you want to support that.

[dorkvader]

Soon there will be the ergo dox. (I feel like that is my answer to everything lately.)

Based on the website, it looks like a DIY keyboard.  Is anyone in the process of manufacturing them?

It is a DIY project, like the phantom that was brought to fruition recently. Like most DIY projects here on the forums, there are a number of people that are willing to build and test them. Once it gets finalized, and the GB done, it will be possible to buy completed ones via these services.

Sholud I put you down as interested in one? I need to update the lists anyway.

[c64]

Well, I need a new keyboard ASAP, so it looks like I either have to roll the dice with TE or settle for non-mechanical keys and get a Kinesis freestyle.

[Gerk]

There are pros and cons without a doubt.

pros:
- good build quality
- ok layout ergonomics wise (the pseudo split approach anyway)

cons:
- mac users:  hardware issues that require unplugging/re-plugging keyboard constantly
- key layout choices, while ok for standard alpha-numeric typing suck for all the additional keys, it feels like very little thought was put towards anything beyond the alphabet and just kind of jammed into wherever they could fit.
- no reprogramming software that was promised (and IMHO is desperately needed)
- non standard keys so no swapping keycaps (or at least lots of them)
- extremely poor communication from company to users, lots of failed promises
- problems remapping some of the keys with commercial remapping software (i.e. left space bar)

And two of the biggest cons for me ... they seem to be content to move on to new models without delivering what was promised for original models and they haven't addressed a single known issue to date with the boards (even when making the new models).  The new models have the exact same firmware problems that the originals did.  The makes me concerned that they don't actually do their own firmware and just had someone do it for them initially which potentially means that going forward we're unlikely to see fixes at the firmware level.

For mac users they can be pretty painful to use at the moment, for windows users it's probably less of a concern.  For linux users I'm not sure but I have seen a few people having issues mapping some of the additional keys so maybe somewhere in between.  Several things that were supposed to work don't and no moves have been mad to fix any of them.  Several times they have been blamed on operating system problems (read: we didn't actually _test_ on that operating system and if it doesn't work then it's an operating system problem and not our problem).  That's a big concern for me ... and while you may think it's not a concern if you are a windows user it may not be -- yet -- but if/when there are issues with running them on windows the chances are that the issues will get treated the same way as they have been on OSX -- swept under the rug and listed as a known issue.

[dorkvader]

And two of the biggest cons for me ... they seem to be content to move on to new models without delivering what was promised for original models and they haven't addressed a single known issue to date with the boards (even when making the new models).  The new models have the exact same firmware problems that the originals did.  The makes me concerned that they don't actually do their own firmware and just had someone do it for them initially which potentially means that going forward we're unlikely to see fixes at the firmware level.

What about that blue switch debouncing issue? Didn't people return a bunch of those. Other than that I don't know of any issues. There are, of course, the "broken promises" of programmability, etc. that didn't get done, but I count those as a separate issue.

[Burz]

I am considering getting a TE also. However, if even the new models are having problems on Macs then I'll probably wait or get something else. No amount of ergonomics is worth the frustration of a flakey USB connection.

Actually, a TKL version of the AT101W would probably make me very happy. I want a typists keyboard that doesn't assume I do lots of numeric data entry (thats what separate keypads are for, IMHO) and allows me better freedom of placement and a closer mouse.

[kurplop]

After hearing from everyone I guess your as undecided as ever.  If I had it to do all over again, I probably would have got a freestyle to take care of the wrist issue temporarily and then wait for the ergodox to come out and buy it.

I say that while admitting that I like typing on my TE.  In fact I like it very much.  I just refuse to support a company any longer that is so inattentive to its customers.  I think we should band together to put TE out of business. I've never been much of a troublemaker but I think my time has come.

[Gerk]

After hearing from everyone I guess your as undecided as ever.  If I had it to do all over again, I probably would have got a freestyle to take care of the wrist issue temporarily and then wait for the ergodox to come out and buy it.

If I had to do it all over again I would still order the TE.  I would probably stil be disappointed with it too, but you don't know until you try.  As I said if I was mostly an alpha-numeric typer I would probably be happy with it, but for coding it's just all wrong for me.

I have a Goldtouch v2 Mac/PC board on order.  While I think I will hate going back to cheapish rubber dome I think that the split/tilt will give me much more benefit in the end.  Hopefully it lasts longer than my last MS Ergo 4k did before the keys all start jamming up!  That said once it does give up the ghost it will probably become a donor to hack on and try to install some cherry switches into it.

I say that while admitting that I like typing on my TE.  In fact I like it very much.  I just refuse to support a company any longer that is so inattentive to its customers.  I think we should band together to put TE out of business. I've never been much of a troublemaker but I think my time has come.

I don't want to do anything of the sort personally.  I applaud their efforts, but not their practices.  I just want them to deliver what was promised when I purchased my board, and a firmware update or two to fix the OSX issues would be nice.

[Burz]

I think we should band together to put TE out of business. I've never been much of a troublemaker but I think my time has come.

Now you *are* playing the hero.

However, if your weapon against them is a project that costs 2X as much to deliver, then you're probably not the hero the GH community deserves.



 

 
 

[kurplop]

I think we should band together to put TE out of business. I've never been much of a troublemaker but I think my time has come.

Now you *are* playing the hero.

However, if your weapon against them is a project that costs 2X as much to deliver, then you're probably not the hero the GH community deserves.

Actually, I never named myself a hero. I was dubbed that when I outbid others on a Geekhacks charity auction for, of all things, a Truly Ergonomics Keyboard.  I have always thought of myself as something of a coward.

The funny thing is, if they simply responded to my e-mails, I would be their loudest cheerleader. I think my frustration with the TE people has more to do with the apparent lack of respect they show their customers than even their undelivered promises.  I like a bargain as much as anyone and can appreciate the limited budget many are on but how can we get them to take us seriously when we continue to support them. 

[Piro]

To me, it would be really simple.
If they teamed up with WASD or had their own custom keycaps options, had the software out to fully program the board, and actually responded to queries, then they would be one of the very top choices in keyboards, in my opinion.

But their simple reluctance to communicate and lack of timeline for options and software means they are a frustrating lot to deal with. You'd think they want to be active in the community, seeing as this market must be fairly small..

[Tracer]

I have owned the 109 for over a year and the 209 since March.  (one at home and one at work).

Pros:
- Build quality is excellent
- I love the size
- the way the wrist rest is secured is I think is great.
- The arched matrix layout of the keyboard is great. I think it has improved my typing speed.
- When customer service is related to actual hardware, transaction, shipping or other monetary issues, they are responsive.

Cons:
- if your customer service issue relates to anything else like release date, software or OS related issues, you will most likely get no response at all
- I cannot use this keyboard without remapping software, luckily for me, on Windows there are many usable free solutions
- If you play games on Windows, OS based remapping does not work on DirectX inputs
- The keyboard seems a bit expensive now, especially with all the mechanical keyboard competition out there now (I bought both of mine on sale).

Would I buy another one? Actually yes, if they released a 209 with reds. In fact, I will gladly buy someone's 109/209 with reds if they are interested in selling

Also in response to some other comments, I code for a living, and though I found adjusting to the "programming" keys more difficult than the language keys, it's been fine.

I want remapping so that I can make my 209 and 109 the same (location of fn keys cannot be remapped in the OS).

(Edited for typos and clarity)

[c64]

What remapping software do you use in Windows?   You mentioned the cost seems expensive compared to other mechanical keyboards.  This is the cheapest ergonomic mechanical keyboard, correct?

[Icarium]

I can generally recommend autohotkey for windows remapping.

[oneproduct]

I've got both a TE and a Kinesis Advantage and I would suggest the Kinesis. The only reason that I like the TE is that it is much smaller than the Kinesis, so I might occasionally bring the TE along with me if I'm away from home. I must say that since I switch keyboard forms somewhat often, that the TE is easily the hardest to get use to, and I always make mistakes with it when using it for non-alphabetical things. When programming, it can be quite frustrating at times getting use to the position of tab and []{}. For typing regular words it's quite wonderful though. Using autohotkey in Windows I've been able to remap it as I please.

If the price of a Kinesis is too high (though I'm told you can get them for cheap on ebay) or the size of the Kinesis is too big, then the TE is probably a fine alternative, but otherwise I'd say go with a Kinesis.

[Gerk]

Or if you don't like the concave keywells of the Kinesis -- I could never get comfortable with that aspect, my hands just don't work well that way.

[Tracer]

What remapping software do you use in Windows?   You mentioned the cost seems expensive compared to other mechanical keyboards.  This is the cheapest ergonomic mechanical keyboard, correct?

For an ergo board sure, but for a mechanical board in general it's expensive. Going rate seems to be $70 these days.

I use KeyTweak. AutoHotKey seems to be popular choice as well.

[Tracer]

Or if you don't like the concave keywells of the Kinesis -- I could never get comfortable with that aspect, my hands just don't work well that way.

This and the height of the keyboard. I find I have to have my desk lower and that makes getting to my trackball, tablet or other things on my desk generally worse for ergonomics. I found I had to raise other items on my desk and I had everything on boxes. I spent a month with the Kenises and gave it back to the guy who also wasn't using it anymore either.

[c64]

Well I decided to go ahead and purchase a TE keyboard.  When I got to the final page of the checkout process, it hung for 5 minutes processing my credit card.  I gave up and closed the page.  The registration went though, since I received an email.   I emailed TE support just to make sure my order went through or not.   Lets see how long it takes for them to respond.

[hoggy]

Are you still waiting?

[Tracer]

I've found that they usually take 1-2 days to respond.

[c64]

Are you still waiting?

Actually, yes.  They emailed me within 30 min to verify the order didn't go through.  I then tried to place an order again and it hung at processing my credit card for 5 minutes, I gave up.  I emailed them again, asking if they had an issue with their checkout system.  About 4 hours later, they emailed me to confirm there was an issue.  I then tried to order again, this time I get a popup stating my credit card type was not supported.   I have a Amex Corporate card.  I am still waiting to hear back from them on this.   I know things sometimes break, servers fail, etc.  I am not pleased so far with the response turnaround.  I am sure someone working for TE is reading these forum, probably sees this post and knows its me.   Its been 18 hours since my last email to them.

[kurplop]

We're all still waiting.

[dorkvader]

I am sure someone working for TE is reading these forum, probably sees this post and knows its me.   Its been 18 hours since my last email to them.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. There have been a lot of users calling for them to make good on their promise of programmability. If they were really watching this forum, you'd think they'd get on that.

[Gerk]

I am sure someone working for TE is reading these forum, probably sees this post and knows its me.   Its been 18 hours since my last email to them.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. There have been a lot of users calling for them to make good on their promise of programmability. If they were really watching this forum, you'd think they'd get on that.

LOL no ... they are really, really good at ignoring things that they don't want to discuss.  Anyone who spent the year waiting for the initial release can attest to that.  maybe there's a lawyer in the throngs of people they are misleading that is willing to get things rolling for a class action suit ... they most certainly have committed "false advertising" on this front and in Canada (where I live and where they operate from) the courts do take that sort of thing seriously.

[kurplop]

Why do you think the people at TE intentionally ignore us?  If I was trying to promote a specialty keyboard, I would treasure having a good relationship with websites like this.

[c64]

Update.  They sent me an email last night, around 8 PM.   Evidently the checkout system they are using does not accept Amex Corporate cards. 

[hoggy]

Does that mean you have a chance to change your mind?

[c64]

Does that mean you have a chance to change your mind?

It sure does.  I think my decision has been made for me. 

[hoggy]

So, any ideas on what you might get?

[sordna]

The main contenders for me would be the Kinesis Advantage and the Ergodox split keyboard project!

[c64]

So, any ideas on what you might get?

Looks like i may just get a Goldtouch or Kinesis Freestyle.  The Advantage isnt an option and the Ergodox is nowhere near being mass produced.

[hoggy]

Either of those two should help out.  The freestyle is good if you think you might swap to dvorak or colemak.  The goldtouch is very quiet.

[hoggy]

I am sure someone working for TE is reading these forum

A while back I would have said they were posting too, but that would have been in bad taste.

[Gerk]

I should have my Goldtouch v2 tomorrow (hopefully).... it's been taking the slow as a turtle over-land route but the tracking site says it's near my now.  If you want I will post my first impressions of it.  I took a long look at the freestyle and the goldtouch and the goldtouch won out for configurability ... the freestyle seems pretty limited in how you can set it up in terms of angles and testing (and you have to change external accessories to do even that) but the goldtouch looks extremely flexible in terms of how you can set it up.

[c64]

I should have my Goldtouch v2 tomorrow (hopefully).... it's been taking the slow as a turtle over-land route but the tracking site says it's near my now.  If you want I will post my first impressions of it.  I took a long look at the freestyle and the goldtouch and the goldtouch won out for configurability ... the freestyle seems pretty limited in how you can set it up in terms of angles and testing (and you have to change external accessories to do even that) but the goldtouch looks extremely flexible in terms of how you can set it up.

Sounds good.  Did you buy palm wrest?  Thats one thing I like about the Freestyle is the wrist wrest conform to the keyboard.  The GoldTouch looks like they only sell some generic wrist wrest.  Am I wrong?

[Gerk]

I didn't buy a wrist rest for it but I think you're right about the Freestyle wrist rest.  For me, at least for angled/tented boards I am not as worried about a wrist rest.  That may change once I start using it for a while!

[sordna]

Having used a Goldtouch for a some time in a fully tented (pyramid) position in the past, resting is a bit of a problem. You need to rest your arms on the desk, therefore opening them up so you rest them next to the sides of the keyboard.

Needless to say, it takes a certain amount of time to put the hands back to position to start typing again, so a tall palm rest might be in order... Perhaps you can easily build a custom one out styrofoam or cardboard.

[Gerk]

I try to take my hands out of the typing position when I'm resting -- my hands are naturally a bit claw like due to arthritis so anything to get away from that position is a good thing for me so I'm just not a big wrist rest guy personally.  So far I'm also not using the board too tented and it feels really good for me still.  I've been typing most of the day today and I'm still pain free, wooohooo.  So far so good.  It will probably take me a while to find my ideal position with it, but so far a few different approaches I've tried have all been ok.  Time will tell.

[sordna]

Cool, care to send us a pic of your new keyboard? How do the keys feel? Can you measure the weight it takes to depress them?
My own old goldtouch has fabulous keys for a rubber dome, and they only need 40g of pressure to actuate, so I'm wondering how the new gen compares.

[c64]

I ordered my GoldTouch today from The Human Solution, best price Ive found plus free shipping.  Ill let you know how I like it when it arrives.  Its a shame about TE, what a joke of a company...

[Gerk]

Cool, care to send us a pic of your new keyboard? How do the keys feel? Can you measure the weight it takes to depress them?
My own old goldtouch has fabulous keys for a rubber dome, and they only need 40g of pressure to actuate, so I'm wondering how the new gen compares.

I'll take some pics and do some key measurements today.  I posted a bit about my initial thoughts on it already here.  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36089.0

[Gerk]

I ordered my GoldTouch today from The Human Solution, best price Ive found plus free shipping.  Ill let you know how I like it when it arrives.  Its a shame about TE, what a joke of a company...

They have some .. how to say this nicely ... "maturing" to do, that's for sure.  Who knows, maybe eventually they will get their act together and finish the job.  Until then I'm very happy with my goldtouch.

[wiz]

I have a couple of TEK 209, a standard legend one at work, a black one at home, with a few white keys spelling out my initials for maximum geekiness...

I like them for both coding and writing. I'm not going to go over the stuff that others mentioned: it's all true, it's small and sturdy, the company sucks to deal with, etc. So, here's some random observations:

I've adapted to the shift keys, but am still struggling with slash, tab, and apostrophe.

I have no problems with them on my MacBook Pro, but I have never plugged one directly into the MacBook USB. That may be what saves me. One connects to an IOGear KVM which connects to a Thinkpad and to the built-in USB hub of a Dell monitor connected to the MacBook. The other goes to a Dell monitor which gets plugged into either a MacBook or a PC.

Speaking of the KVM, it works great with an IOGear KVM. Before you use it, you must plug in a conventional keyboard and do the alternate switch key thing. Once you do that, the IOGear stays set for life, and a double tap of the left control key of the TEK toggles boards.

The keycaps wear quicker than just about anything else I've ever used, especially the non-standard split space-bars and the backspace. I don't know who they had mold the dang things. To add insult to injury, the white legends on the high use keys get grungy. Which makes the N, S, I, E, etc. especially ugly.

It is profile compatible with WASD keys, except for the five weird shaped keys in the center and the split spacebars.

The keycaps look black, but they're actually translucent smoked grey. Not just the three that light up, all of them, except possibly the center 5. I have no idea if this can be exploited in any meaningful way.

Both of mine are set to PC mode, because Mac mode seems to cause more problems than it cures. The MacBook is set to make the left and right control keys "command" keys and the "super" key a control. The dead keys in the corners can't be remapped with software when it's in PC mode.

I frequently end up with my right hand one column left of home, and I have no idea why.

The pinky columns are not shifted down enough.

The enter key results in the occasional "accidental send".