Vertical or Horizontal spacebar on ergo keyboard?

[yasuo]

Hello Geekhackers

I want ask here your prefer
 
Spacebar Regular(Horizontal):MTron,Kinesis FS,M15,Cherry 5000etc) 
Spacebar Vertical like:Ergo dox,Kinesis Adv.Maltron.etc)?


Your comment will be very helpfull
Thanks

[Sciurid89]

I prefer the spacebar very close to the homerow keys. The Kinesis Advantage has it just a little too far away for my preference. I want to get in on the next ergodox and put a black switch on the space, probably with an o-ring damper, too.

[vvp]

Spacebar is probably the key which makes smallest difference between ergo and regular. It is easy to hit on both layouts. More important reason to get an ergo keyboard are modifiers (Ctrl,Alt), and non-staggered layout (same tilt for both hands). And I actually like the positions of arrow/pgUp/pgDown/Home/End keys on my kinesis advantage (no need to move hand to use them).

[pyro]

Split into 3 separate keys like TrulyErgonomic Keyboard: Space | Enter | Shift

[yasuo]

Hello Geekhackers

I want ask here
your prefer Spacebar regular(uTRON,Kinesis FS.etc) or Space like(Ergo dox,Kinesis Adv.Maltron.etc)?
This
http://xahlee.info/kbd/i3/utron_keyboard.jpg
This
http://www.key64.org/ergodox/ergodox-one-halve.jpg/image_large

Your comment will be very helpfull
Thanks

[daerid]

After getting used to the vertical space on the ErgoDox, I easily prefer it over the wide horizontal bar on most normal boards. So much wasted space... (no pun intended).

[vivalarevolución]

The spacebar on the Ergodox and Maltron.   Less waste and easy to adjust to.   And I fi d it better to just have one thumb on the space and have the other big thumb key do something else. 

[tp4tissue]

Ergodox + Stabilizers.   OMFG, I hated the 2x keys without stabilizers... it was grinding..

But with stabilizers, they're as smooth as butter.

[yasuo]

The spacebar on the Ergodox and Maltron.   Less waste and easy to adjust to.   And I fi d it better to just have one thumb on the space and have the other big thumb key do something else.

you like vertical,it seems

[Findecanor]

1×1 is enough.

[MOZ]

I like ti angled like in the ErdoDox.

[Architect]

It doesn't really matter, the key is way larger than it needs to be and since you hit it with a small spot the size and orientation hardly matters. What is important is position relative to the hand, I like the innovation that Kinesis started (or maybe Maltron was first) of putting it under your thumb. I like how TrulyErgonomic went further and put it under the thumb, but also let the left hand one be remapped. I put Control/Command under that one so it acts more like the Kinesis by putting important keys, and especially ones that you lean on (press for long periods) under the thumbs.

I like the ergodox solution too, much like the Kinesis but unfortunately a flat design. The bowls of the Kinesis make it trivial to know your hand position. The TrulyErgonomic is pseudo flat, the curve instead put into the keycaps. Unfortunately it makes that going with custom keycaps loses the shape, but is a smaller, much more rigid (metal plate) and cheaper to manufacture and sell.

[Azteca]

As most people only use a fraction of the space key, disregarding if vertical or horizontal, as long as the pressed spot is right under your neutral thumb position, you’re good. Obviously, such spot is not at the exact same place for everyone, so having extra vertical or horizontal space is to accommodate more people.

For me, most thumb keys of the Maltron/KinesisAdvantage/ErgoDox are too far away for comfort, only the closets Backspace-Space seem comfortable. The TrulyErgonomic horizontal Space-Enter-Space keys are right under your thumbs, so they’re all comfortable to press, and you can reprogram any of these.

Having said that, if there were a TrulyErgonomic version that separates their horizontal Space-Enter-Space keys into double vertical keys - having six vertical keys instead of three horizontal under the thumbs, would be a fascinating design.

In regard to Maltron versus KinesisAdvantage, Maltron designed theirs in 1976, then Kinesis show up the “Maltron’s younger brother” Advantage in 1996 (20 years later).

How to make a Kinesis Advantage(
Take the Maltron;
wait 20 years;
remove 28 center keys;
remove 2 center ‘Del’ keys;
replace Function keys with gummy bears;
);
//Hope nobody notices;

[tufty]

How to make a Kinesis Advantage(
Take the Maltron;
wait 20 years;
remove 28 center keys;
remove 2 center ‘Del’ keys;
replace Function keys with gummy bears;
);
//Hope nobody notices;

How to make a standard keyboard.
- Take an 1898 or so Underwood Typewriter
- Add a bunch of extra buttons, keeping the ones you no longer actually need
- Replace the levers with rubber domes
- hope nobody notices.

How to make a Typematrix keyboard.
- Take a 1915 or so Adler typewriter
- Add a bunch of extra buttons, keeping the ones you no longer actually need
- Replace the levers with rubber domes.
- hope nobody notices

How to make yourself look like a ****
- Spam every ergo keyboard thread with the same crap.

It may have escaped your eagle eye, but advances in technology are very rarely of the "huge leap" variety, but far more commonly just "incremental advances".  Some of those incremental advances may well, in fact, be small steps backwards.  Yes, the Maltron layout, with its keybowls and thumb clusters, was a huge advance.  That the Kinesis also features keybowls and thumb clusters does not mean that it is a "direct ripoff" of the Maltron, however.  It has a different layout, different numbers of keys in different places, different bowl curvatures and thumb cluster angling.  The Ergo* boards have flat key planes rather than bowls, less keys in those planes, different thumb cluster placement, thumb clusters in the same plane as the keys, and come in 2 pieces.

Incremental variants on the basic idea of a keyboard that's designed for the mechanics of the human hand, rather than the mechanics of rods and levers pushing cast type against platen.

[jacobolus]

1x1 or 1.25x1 is fine for a spacebar, but it needs to be positioned so that the thumb can press it. Ideally, the thumb should rest right on the spacebar when the hand is in a completely neutral position, and the switch should be angled such that flexing the strongest thumb muscle pushes directly down at it.

To figure out what direction to angle the thumb key, try taking all the keycaps off a standard keyboard but one near the right edge, holding your wrist in the air such that the thumb rests on that key when in a neutral position, aligned so the axis of the thumb is in line with the keycap, and pressing the key. Then spin your wrist about the axis of your arm, keeping the thumb in position on your one key. Make note of which wrist angles allow the easiest flexing of the thumb in a direction to activate the switch.

If the keyboard is going to be made out of one flat plate, then I think that Jesse Vincent’s (Obra’s) current design is pretty reasonable:


Among sculpted layouts, I think Maltron does the best job with the spacebar orientation, that I’ve seen, noticeably better than the Kinesis. Unfortunately, I don’t like the way they handle the rest of the thumb-key cluster.

For a modifier key to be used by the thumb, feel free to angle the switch/cap the other way, so that the thumb squeezes rather than slaps at them [this uses the muscles which flex a different thumb joint than the angle from above]. I think in this way it's possible to fit more thumb keys in, at angles to each-other. On the Data Hand, for instance, I’d use the bottom thumb switch for a key like space/delete, but the inside thumb switch for a modifier key like shift, etc.

[Oobly]

1x1 works well for me



@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys. I am very happy with how it works. 4 keys per thumb and they can be pressed on their own, in pairs or all 4 at the same time (although that's probably rather unnecessary). Comfy and natural feeling.

The top front key on the right hand thumb cluster is space.

I use the top left 2 in a pair (layer+shift) and the lower right pair sometimes (ctrl+alt).

Obra and suka have made some great ergo designs.

[tp4tissue]

1x1 works well for me

(Attachment Link)

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys. I am very happy with how it works. 4 keys per thumb and they can be pressed on their own, in pairs or all 4 at the same time (although that's probably rather unnecessary). Comfy and natural feeling.

The top front key on the right hand thumb cluster is space.

I use the top left 2 in a pair (layer+shift) and the lower right pair sometimes (ctrl+alt).

Obra and suka have made some great ergo designs.

This design has a major flaw..

Because of the profiled thumb keys..

You can not use a hover-hand technique for typing.. because your hands would land on the nearest thumb key side ways..

I guess a profile switcher etc can make this not such a huge issue..  But having the thumb key closer than it is on the EGDX is good enough..

I don't think profiling the thumb key is necessary.

[jacobolus]

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys.

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I haven’t done extensive enough testing here to speak authoritatively (still working on models; need to actually wire up some switches soon), but it’s my guess that for a key that needs to be tapped, possibly repeatedly, like delete or spacebar or return, you may want to use the Maltron direction, whereas for a key that needs to be held down, like a modifier key, the Oobly direction might work just as well or better.

[Oobly]

1x1 works well for me

(Attachment Link)

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys. I am very happy with how it works. 4 keys per thumb and they can be pressed on their own, in pairs or all 4 at the same time (although that's probably rather unnecessary). Comfy and natural feeling.

The top front key on the right hand thumb cluster is space.

I use the top left 2 in a pair (layer+shift) and the lower right pair sometimes (ctrl+alt).

Obra and suka have made some great ergo designs.

This design has a major flaw..

Because of the profiled thumb keys..

You can not use a hover-hand technique for typing.. because your hands would land on the nearest thumb key side ways..

I guess a profile switcher etc can make this not such a huge issue..  But having the thumb key closer than it is on the EGDX is good enough..

I don't think profiling the thumb key is necessary.

Oh really?

Floating


Resting

[Oobly]

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys.

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I haven’t done extensive enough testing here to speak authoritatively (still working on models; need to actually wire up some switches soon), but it’s my guess that for a key that needs to be tapped, possibly repeatedly, like delete or spacebar or return, you may want to use the Maltron direction, whereas for a key that needs to be held down, like a modifier key, the Oobly direction might work just as well or better.

 

I designed the angle according to how my thumb moves when I have my hand in a natural resting state and try to "press" a key. Natural "squeeze" direction. Working very well for me so far.

[tp4tissue]

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys.

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I haven’t done extensive enough testing here to speak authoritatively (still working on models; need to actually wire up some switches soon), but it’s my guess that for a key that needs to be tapped, possibly repeatedly, like delete or spacebar or return, you may want to use the Maltron direction, whereas for a key that needs to be held down, like a modifier key, the Oobly direction might work just as well or better.

 

I designed the angle according to how my thumb moves when I have my hand in a natural resting state and try to "press" a key. Natural "squeeze" direction. Working very well for me so far.

You see how your wrist is NOT in hover technique position... it should   UP .. yet to accomodate those contoured thumb keys you've got them DOWN..

The hover wrist technique in which one would use for speed typing// Faster transitions... require that the wrist be above the palm plane...


It is possible to accommodate the keyboard in your configuration by putting it higher.. such that the wrist can be above the palm..

but it's not ideal. because you'd have a very high control surface..

This high surface is also bad for the mouse, as you would bump your forearm into table.

[Oobly]

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys.

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I haven’t done extensive enough testing here to speak authoritatively (still working on models; need to actually wire up some switches soon), but it’s my guess that for a key that needs to be tapped, possibly repeatedly, like delete or spacebar or return, you may want to use the Maltron direction, whereas for a key that needs to be held down, like a modifier key, the Oobly direction might work just as well or better.

 

I designed the angle according to how my thumb moves when I have my hand in a natural resting state and try to "press" a key. Natural "squeeze" direction. Working very well for me so far.

You see how your wrist is NOT in hover technique position... it should   UP .. yet to accomodate those contoured thumb keys you've got them DOWN..

The hover wrist technique in which one would use for speed typing// Faster transitions... require that the wrist be above the palm plane...


It is possible to accommodate the keyboard in your configuration by putting it higher.. such that the wrist can be above the palm..

but it's not ideal. because you'd have a very high control surface..

This high surface is also bad for the mouse, as you would bump your forearm into table.

Fixable by raising the front edge of each unit a touch, but it's good for me as it is.

[tp4tissue]

@jacobolus: As you can see, I agree with your assessment of thumb keys.

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I haven’t done extensive enough testing here to speak authoritatively (still working on models; need to actually wire up some switches soon), but it’s my guess that for a key that needs to be tapped, possibly repeatedly, like delete or spacebar or return, you may want to use the Maltron direction, whereas for a key that needs to be held down, like a modifier key, the Oobly direction might work just as well or better.

 

I designed the angle according to how my thumb moves when I have my hand in a natural resting state and try to "press" a key. Natural "squeeze" direction. Working very well for me so far.

You see how your wrist is NOT in hover technique position... it should   UP .. yet to accomodate those contoured thumb keys you've got them DOWN..

The hover wrist technique in which one would use for speed typing// Faster transitions... require that the wrist be above the palm plane...


It is possible to accommodate the keyboard in your configuration by putting it higher.. such that the wrist can be above the palm..

but it's not ideal. because you'd have a very high control surface..

This high surface is also bad for the mouse, as you would bump your forearm into table.

Fixable by raising the front edge of each unit a touch, but it's good for me as it is.

Don't get me wrong oobly..

I am 3rd or 4th in line awaiting to get ur keyboard... Big fan!!

[jacobolus]

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I designed the angle according to how my thumb moves when I have my hand in a natural resting state and try to "press" a key. Natural "squeeze" direction. Working very well for me so far.

Sure, but I wonder, did you try angling it the other way, such that you press the keys by moving your thumb in a direction roughly perpendicular to your palm? I agree that the squeeze direction is easy enough, but I think you actually get a bigger muscle activated if you angle it the other way.

Hopefully I can find someone with a Maltron keyboard to try for a few minutes, and see how it works.

I’ll put pics up of how I want to do things once I have a prototype a bit more finished. Hopefully within the next week.

[Oobly]

Note, I think your design is probably completely usable, but the biggest muscle moving your thumb actually works at an angle like 75° or something to the angle you have there. Look at the Maltron, which is angled such that you bend the whole thumb to press it, in a direction roughly perpendicular to the palm, whereas in your design you’re flexing the 2nd joint, which squeezes the thumb in a direction toward the other fingers.

I designed the angle according to how my thumb moves when I have my hand in a natural resting state and try to "press" a key. Natural "squeeze" direction. Working very well for me so far.

Sure, but I wonder, did you try angling it the other way, such that you press the keys by moving your thumb in a direction roughly perpendicular to your palm? I agree that the squeeze direction is easy enough, but I think you actually get a bigger muscle activated if you angle it the other way.

Hopefully I can find someone with a Maltron keyboard to try for a few minutes, and see how it works.

I’ll put pics up of how I want to do things once I have a prototype a bit more finished. Hopefully within the next week.

My thumb is more accurate moving over the angled plane and more powerful "squeezing" towards the rest of the fingers. Pressing down like the Maltron didn't feel right to me and I found my movements less accurate and more awkward over a "flat" plane. It may just be a personal thing, though. Everyone is a little different.

[mauikutan]

IMHO i better horizontal,


toug im never taste any vertical spacebared kb, but just think out of it, it kinda weird for me

[kod]

I think narrower (like maybe 1.5x - 2x) independent horizontal thumb keys would be best.  Somewhat like the new split matias, although I'm skeptical of the right hand cluster.

[tufty]

Where does the velotype's "no space" palm button fit in?