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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: naz on Thu, 23 April 2015, 13:01:16

Title: Arrow keys
Post by: naz on Thu, 23 April 2015, 13:01:16

Hello,

Since there are a ton of keys that i don't use on a normal keyboard, i'm looking into moving to a 60% or 75% keyboard (it would be nice to have the mouse closer to the body). But i believe i use the arrow keys the most (selecting text, moving excel cels, navegating on web sites, emails, etc), so maybe isn't such a good idea to get a keyboard without this keys.

I wanted to ask the people that use keyboards without dedicated arrow keys, how you do it?? you depend on the mouse? you use fn layer?? do you use your thumb or pinky to press it?? etc...

let me know!

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: JaydrVernanda on Thu, 23 April 2015, 13:13:52

I was once in the exact same position as you: wanted to purchase a 60%, but was concerned about the lack of dedicated arrow keys. Once I discovered SpaceFN (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0), though, I ordered an HHKB and never looked back. In fact, I've gotten so used to it that dedicated arrow keys feel slow and clumsy.

Give SpaceFN a shot and go with a 60% if it feels right.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: pyro on Thu, 23 April 2015, 14:50:36

I've remapped arrow keys and braces to the number row and use an extra numpad layer for numbers and the remaining symbols.

Code: [Select]

original:   ~   1     2     3      4  5  6        7  8  9  0  -  =    backspace
remapped:   up  down  left  right  {  }  nothing  *  (  [  ]  )  del  backspace
I use arrow keys too often to have them on a separate layer and find this position more convenient than the default.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: inanis on Thu, 23 April 2015, 14:53:57

I switched FN to capslock position and use WASD for arrows. It is awesome and efficient. I use arrows heavily and I have no issues at all with a 60%, I even prefer it. There are so many options out there that address this issue I'm sure you can find something that will work for you.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Thu, 23 April 2015, 15:49:46

Give TouchCursor a try, and remap your bindings for arrows to any key you prefer. I just found it in the space FN thread.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 23 April 2015, 17:07:22

Using HHKB I've just trained myself to use the Fn arrow keys.  Mostly.

Or you could consider Leopold FC660M or FC660C - 60% + arrow keys.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: naz on Thu, 23 April 2015, 20:03:17

So i installed the touchcursor and it feels pretty good. I placed the arrow keys on the rigth hand so i can use the left one to press shift to select text, use ctrl+copy and ctrl+paste (main reason not to use caps lock and wasd as arrows). By the way, using the space bar is a lot better than using alt (it feels unnatural to move your thumb under your palm).
 

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Thu, 23 April 2015, 22:22:19

Quote from: naz on Thu, 23 April 2015, 20:03:17

So i installed the touchcursor and it feels pretty good. I placed the arrow keys on the rigth hand so i can use the left one to press shift to select text, use ctrl+copy and ctrl+paste (main reason not to use caps lock and wasd as arrows). By the way, using the space bar is a lot better than using alt (it feels unnatural to move your thumb under your palm).
 

wasd keys can also be set to be used with the space bar, for left hand cursor move.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: jacobolus on Fri, 24 April 2015, 09:33:13

Arrows near the home row on a layer are much nicer than arrows down in the corner of the keyboard. :-)

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Fri, 24 April 2015, 09:47:09

Quote from: jacobolus on Fri, 24 April 2015, 09:33:13

Arrows near the home row on a layer are much nicer than arrows down in the corner of the keyboard. :-)

That's right.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: naz on Fri, 24 April 2015, 10:09:54

Quote from: ideus on Thu, 23 April 2015, 22:22:19

wasd keys can also be set to be used with the space bar, for left hand cursor move.

Actually, for the rigth hand, it seems to me that a better combination would be space+esdf, with capslock+wasd as a second choice. Still, having the right hand free to ctrl copy and ctrl paste seems better (to me at least).

Regards

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Fri, 24 April 2015, 10:24:26

Quote from: naz on Fri, 24 April 2015, 10:09:54

Quote from: ideus on Thu, 23 April 2015, 22:22:19

wasd keys can also be set to be used with the space bar, for left hand cursor move.

Actually, for the rigth hand, it seems to me that a better combination would be space+esdf, with capslock+wasd as a second choice. Still, having the right hand free to ctrl copy and ctrl paste seems better (to me at least).

Regards

Yeah, esdf sounds a a good alternative.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: Hzza on Fri, 24 April 2015, 10:34:57

I remap capslock and the app key with control and both the "natural" control keys with FN keys. I stick arrows on ESDF and IJKL so I can either one hand them or use the opposite hand to access the arrows (I use arrows a lot so I like having lots of options to keep things comfortable).

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Fri, 24 April 2015, 11:54:45

Quote from: Hzza on Fri, 24 April 2015, 10:34:57

I remap capslock and the app key with control and both the "natural" control keys with FN keys. I stick arrows on ESDF and IJKL so I can either one hand them or use the opposite hand to access the arrows (I use arrows a lot so I like having lots of options to keep things comfortable).

Could you post a figure of your layout?

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: Hzza on Sat, 25 April 2015, 01:55:51

Code: [Select]

/* Layer 0: Default ISO
*
* ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
* |Esc|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 | |F9 |F10|F11|F12| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
* `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
* ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
* |`  |  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
* |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
* |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
* |Lctrl |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|Fn3|  '|  #|    |             
* |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
* |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift     |     |Up |   
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
* |Fn1  |Gui|Alt  |          Space        |Alt  |Gui|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
* `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
*
/* Layer 1: Arrows + Media
*
* ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
* |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|Vup| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
* `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
* ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
* |Esc| F1| F2| F3| F4| F5| F6| F7| F8| F9|F10|F11|F12|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
* |Tab  |Del|  W| Up|  R|  T|  Y|  U| UP|  O|Del|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
* |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
* |LCtrl |  A|LFT|DWN|RGT|  G|  H|LFT|DWN|RGT|Fn3|Ins|ScL|    |           
* |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
* |Shft|Fn2|Hme|PUp|PDn|End|  B|  N|Hme|PUp|PDn|End|Shift     |     |Up |   
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
* |Fnl  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |App|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
* `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
*
/ * Layer 2: Numpad + Media
*
* ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
* |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|VUp| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
* `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
* ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
* |Esc|F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |F9 |F10|F11|F12|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
* |Tab  |Del|Nu-|Nu+|NuX|Nu/|  Y|Nu7|Nu8|Nu9|Nu/|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
* |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
* |LCtrl |  =|Del|Ent|Tab|  G|  H|Nu4|Nu5|Nu6|Fn3|  '|NLk|    |           
* |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
* |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|Nu0|Nu1|Nu2|Nu3|Nu.|Shift     |     |Up |   
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
* |Fnl  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |App|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
* `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
* 
/* Layer 3: Mousekeys in alpha section
*
* ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
* |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|VUp| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
* `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
* ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
* |Esc| F1| F2| F3| F4| F5| F6| F7| F8| F9|F10|  -|  =|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
* |Tab  |  Q|Bt4|WhU|Bt5|  T|  Y|  U|MoU|  O|  P|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
* |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
* |Lctrl |  A|Bt2|Bt3|Bt1|  G|  H|MoL|MoD|MoR|Fn3|  '|  #|    |             
* |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
* |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|WhD|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift     |     |Up |   
* |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
* |Fn1  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |Gui|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|;
* `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
*/  More or less, some minor tweaks on boards with a different layout but that's pretty much it.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Sat, 25 April 2015, 08:13:15

Quote from: Hzza on Sat, 25 April 2015, 01:55:51

Code: [Select]

/* Layer 0: Default ISO
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 | |F9 |F10|F11|F12| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |`  |  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |Lctrl |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|Fn3|  '|  #|    |             
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fn1  |Gui|Alt  |          Space        |Alt  |Gui|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    *
    /* Layer 1: Arrows + Media
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|Vup| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc| F1| F2| F3| F4| F5| F6| F7| F8| F9|F10|F11|F12|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |Del|  W| Up|  R|  T|  Y|  U| UP|  O|Del|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |LCtrl |  A|LFT|DWN|RGT|  G|  H|LFT|DWN|RGT|Fn3|Ins|ScL|    |           
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|Hme|PUp|PDn|End|  B|  N|Hme|PUp|PDn|End|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fnl  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |App|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    *
    / * Layer 2: Numpad + Media
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|VUp| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc|F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |F9 |F10|F11|F12|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |Del|Nu-|Nu+|NuX|Nu/|  Y|Nu7|Nu8|Nu9|Nu/|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |LCtrl |  =|Del|Ent|Tab|  G|  H|Nu4|Nu5|Nu6|Fn3|  '|NLk|    |           
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|Nu0|Nu1|Nu2|Nu3|Nu.|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fnl  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |App|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    * 
    /* Layer 3: Mousekeys in alpha section
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|VUp| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc| F1| F2| F3| F4| F5| F6| F7| F8| F9|F10|  -|  =|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |  Q|Bt4|WhU|Bt5|  T|  Y|  U|MoU|  O|  P|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |Lctrl |  A|Bt2|Bt3|Bt1|  G|  H|MoL|MoD|MoR|Fn3|  '|  #|    |             
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|WhD|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fn1  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |Gui|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|;
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    */  More or less, some minor tweaks on boards with a different layout but that's pretty much it.

Interesting, thank you for sharing.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: KHAANNN on Sat, 25 April 2015, 09:43:23

Using the rightshift+rightmost 1.25 keys come natural, you don't have to change anything

I only experience minor confusion when I try to type ":wq" - but that's it (I occasionally use VIM, it seems I only use the rightshift with VIM, apart from that, I always use just the leftshift, so this layout works very well for me)

If you can find an 60% with the right 2.75 shift divided into 1.75 + 1, that could just be perfect

I could give up a lot of things up, but not the dedicated arrows (When using modified keys, I generally make mistakes with a low probability, like 1%+, so when/if I use the arrows in a modified manner, I would introduce a lot of characters)

Another caveat are the programs you are using, when you google them by appending "problems" you might see that many people associate various programs with various issues, so it's a good idea to not remap the keypresses with software as much as possible, I personally don't

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: Hzza on Sat, 25 April 2015, 10:11:14

Quote from: ideus on Sat, 25 April 2015, 08:13:15

Quote from: Hzza on Sat, 25 April 2015, 01:55:51

Code: [Select]

/* Layer 0: Default ISO
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 | |F9 |F10|F11|F12| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |`  |  1|  2|  3|  4|  5|  6|  7|  8|  9|  0|  -|  =|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|  Y|  U|  I|  O|  P|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |Lctrl |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|  H|  J|  K|  L|Fn3|  '|  #|    |             
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fn1  |Gui|Alt  |          Space        |Alt  |Gui|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    *
    /* Layer 1: Arrows + Media
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|Vup| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc| F1| F2| F3| F4| F5| F6| F7| F8| F9|F10|F11|F12|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |Del|  W| Up|  R|  T|  Y|  U| UP|  O|Del|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |LCtrl |  A|LFT|DWN|RGT|  G|  H|LFT|DWN|RGT|Fn3|Ins|ScL|    |           
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|Hme|PUp|PDn|End|  B|  N|Hme|PUp|PDn|End|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fnl  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |App|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    *
    / * Layer 2: Numpad + Media
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|VUp| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc|F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 |F5 |F6 |F7 |F8 |F9 |F10|F11|F12|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |Del|Nu-|Nu+|NuX|Nu/|  Y|Nu7|Nu8|Nu9|Nu/|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |LCtrl |  =|Del|Ent|Tab|  G|  H|Nu4|Nu5|Nu6|Fn3|  '|NLk|    |           
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|  C|  V|  B|Nu0|Nu1|Nu2|Nu3|Nu.|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fnl  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |App|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    * 
    /* Layer 3: Mousekeys in alpha section
    *
    * ,---.   ,---------------. ,---------------. ,---------------. ,-----------.
    * |Cap|   |F1 |F2 |F3 |F4 | |F5 |F6 |F7 |Ply| |Nxt|Prv|VDn|VUp| |PrS|ScL|Pau|
    * `---'   `---------------' `---------------' `---------------' `-----------'
    * ,-----------------------------------------------------------. ,-----------.
    * |Esc| F1| F2| F3| F4| F5| F6| F7| F8| F9|F10|  -|  =|Backsp | |Ins|Hom|PgU|
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| |-----------|
    * |Tab  |  Q|Bt4|WhU|Bt5|  T|  Y|  U|MoU|  O|  P|  [|  ]|     | |Del|End|PgD|
    * |------------------------------------------------------|Ent | `-----------'
    * |Lctrl |  A|Bt2|Bt3|Bt1|  G|  H|MoL|MoD|MoR|Fn3|  '|  #|    |             
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------|     ,---.   
    * |Shft|Fn2|  Z|  X|WhD|  V|  B|  N|  M|  ,|  .|  /|Shift     |     |Up |   
    * |-----------------------------------------------------------| ,-----------.
    * |Fn1  |Gui|Alt  |          BackSpace    |Alt  |Gui|Fn1|Ctl  | |Lef|Dow|Rig|;
    * `-----------------------------------------------------------' `-----------'
    */  More or less, some minor tweaks on boards with a different layout but that's pretty much it.

Interesting, thank you for sharing.

No probs, it took me a while to settle on this but it's so imbedded now I struggle to use any other board without my layers.

It was much more complicated initially, I had dedicated left hand/right hand FN layers (so the left hand nav keys could only be accessed using the right FN key) but I simplified things down a lot. I've been using it as is for around 18 months now on every board I use regularly and I'm really happy with it, I barely use the dedicated arrow/nav/F keys on my TKL daily driver.

The numpad layer is my favourite part though, it took a little getting used to but it is soooooo useful now for data entry and moving around our systems at work. The mouse layer I used to rely on pretty heavily but I just started using a rollermouse in the last couple of months so it's been made pretty much redundant.

I'm thinking of moving the other nav keys (pgup/pg dn, home end) as I'm doing a bit more text work and Excel sheets with multiple tabs (previously it was just massive, single tab sheets) but I'm not sure where to put them yet...

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: rsac on Sun, 26 April 2015, 11:23:31

One thing about putting arrows in a separate layer is how difficult would be to do things like "ctrl + shift + down", that one can do one-handed in a normal layout. Here a sketch of my imagined arrow cluster on a left thumb toggled FN layer (showing the relevant QWERTY section for reference).

Code: [Select]

        /* Layer 0: Normal QWERTY
*
* |--------------------------
* |Tab  |  Q|  W|  E|  R|  T|
* |--------------------------
* |Lctrl |  A|  S|  D|  F|  G|
* `--------------------------
*
/* Layer 1: Arrows
*
* |------------------------------------------
* | Win  | Shft | Home |  Up  | End  | PgUp | 
* |------------------------------------------
* | Alt  | Ctrl | Left | Down | Rgth | PgDw |
* `------------------------------------------
*/ 
Even then, it is still more difficult to chord two keys with the pinkie than the index finger on a normal keyboard, but at least seems workable. Maybe I could map some key to "ctrl + shift" and "ctrl + alt" to solve that...

In the row bellow I could put some mouse keys, like: scroll up, left click, scroll down. Or I may put "next" and "prev" keys for internet navigation. The 'Alt' key is probably better bellow Ctrl, but I'm too lazy to change that now on the diagram. Also, if "delete" is missing from my main layer, I would probably put it under the PgDown there.

The main advantage about an FN layer like that is that it is probably quicker to change to a different layer than for your hands leave the home row in search for the arrows. And the fact that you don't need extra keys on your keyboard.

But a thing I'm afraid: have you guys had any problem with applications that assume you have your left keyboard available when using the arrows? The main thing I imagine are some web applications and games, where you need both halves of the keyboard. And specially on flash games, you can't remap the keys. One solution I could think would be defining an alternative "gamming layer" that can be permanently toggled to for a while.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: davkol on Mon, 27 April 2015, 04:57:01

I've tried several approaches to arrows' placement, but I don't use these keys all that much anyway.

• hjkl-like, but on a layer in the resting home position (QWERTY jkl;) or on the bottom row (in place of modifiers) … too much strain on the pinkie, takes a lot of time to get used to up/down, lots of outward rolls and strain when navigating quickly
• like previous, but with separated directions (see Kinesis Advantage; up/down on one side, left/right on the other one) … poor hand movement synchronization, requires both hands on the keyboard
• HHKB (right-hand punctuation keys, "diamond" cluster shape) … requires keeping the right hand at a huge angle IME, quite far from the home resting position, not convenient in any way
• at last, but not least, ESDF/IJKL … perfect IMHO, hands are directly in the typing home spot, it has all the advantages of an inverted-T arrow cluster, and staggering helps IJKL on staggered keyboards

However, I spend most time in Emacs, a terminal emulator or Firefox w/ Vimperator/VimFx. Arrow keys are rarely needed, because I can use vi-like controls or C-[bnpf] almost everywhere; I have six Control keys on my keyboard: in the corner, next to the pinkie and under a thumb—symmetrically on each ErgoDox half.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Mon, 27 April 2015, 08:16:14

esdf and ijkl are the best positions for arrows with the space bar as a modifier.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 28 April 2015, 11:33:01

I use a KBT Pure and a GON NerD60 at work for coding and text editing and even though I like using the 60% boards a lot (primarily for ergonomics), I miss having arrow keys on the primary layer and I'm still faster on a TKL. It's super hard to improve on a habit of more than 20 years of inverted T main layer arrows. My hand still moves to the arrow cluster position of it's own volition now and then and I'm surprised to bump into the mouse ;)

The Leopold FC660 is the best "compromise" I have yet seen, but the Insert/Delete should be remappable (to home/end for instance) to make it really awesome for editing (perhaps you can do this in AHK?). Great layout, still. Best 60%-ish layout if you are going to use arrows a lot.

I agree with davkol about IJKL being best if you have to use layered arrow cluster, but the spacebar takes up too much prime real estate and that's where I'd put my Fn key if I could, where my left thumb rests when typing. I have become used to using OKL; with my KBT Pure, using the key to the right of space as Fn and copied the same layout to my GON.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: ideus on Tue, 28 April 2015, 16:44:33

I have been using esdf and ijkl for arrows for a week now, with space and FN key, and it is almost natural already. It works with chorded commands like those used in excel.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: naz on Tue, 02 June 2015, 21:33:20

Update:

So i been using the space+ijkl as arrow keys for over a month now and it feels quite natural..... but i developed wrist pain from doing this.

You see, if you push something with only your thumb (space bar in this case) then your hand will want to rotate clockwise from your point of view. This means that, ir order to keep your hand from rotating, you have to force it counterclockwise, stressing the wrist and creating pain...

So screw it, no more keyboard without dedicated arrow key for me.

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 02 June 2015, 22:50:26

Quote from: naz on Tue, 02 June 2015, 21:33:20

Update:

So i been using the space+ijkl as arrow keys for over a month now and it feels quite natural..... but i developed wrist pain from doing this.

You see, if you push something with only your thumb (space bar in this case) then your hand will want to rotate clockwise from your point of view. This means that, ir order to keep your hand from rotating, you have to force it counterclockwise, stressing the wrist and creating pain...

So screw it, no more keyboard without dedicated arrow key for me.

I also find the idea of non-dedicated arrows preposterous - especially because I use them heavily during programming and writing in general

My 60% layout with dedicated arrows instead of right modifiers work well for me, very well

But I think the ideal layout is either a 75%, or a 68% like this one: http://ortholinearkeyboards.com/neutrino-top-plate

Non dedicated arrows might only work for extremely efficient home row touch typists - that's not me

Title: Re: Arrow keys
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 03 June 2015, 01:42:39

Quote from: naz on Tue, 02 June 2015, 21:33:20

Update:

So i been using the space+ijkl as arrow keys for over a month now and it feels quite natural..... but i developed wrist pain from doing this.

You see, if you push something with only your thumb (space bar in this case) then your hand will want to rotate clockwise from your point of view. This means that, ir order to keep your hand from rotating, you have to force it counterclockwise, stressing the wrist and creating pain...

So screw it, no more keyboard without dedicated arrow key for me.

If you don't use right Shift a lot, KBT Pure or Poker X will work, as you can lock the right mods into an arrow cluster.

Leopold FC660M and C are even better, though, as they have dedicated arrow keys and Insert, Delete keys. The only difference from normal keycap sizes is the right Shift, but it's the same as the left Shift, so if you can find a 2nd left Shift key for the set, you can install any aftermarket sets.