Author Topic: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company  (Read 4223 times)

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Offline rhubarbpi

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Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 12:59:34 »
So let me propose a hypothetical :

A new switch company forms that ONLY manufactures Alps style
switches (no keyboards, no cables - ONLY switches).

If this was real, what would the Geekhack community
wish to see them make?
Exactish repros of classics?
UPDATED repros with housing improvements?
Entire new switches based on new spring & leaf combos?

Anyone vested in Alps switches please feel free to chime in!
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


*daily drivers*

Apple AEK - #{Alps Orange}
Apple M0116 - #{Alps Salmon}
Apple M0110A - #{Alps Tall Cream}
Apple AEKII - #{Alps Dampened Cream}
Apple IIgs - #{Alps Orange}

 - all powered by tinkerBoy Converters :D

Offline joecoolbob

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 15:13:45 »
I'd much rather have more keycap options rather than new switches. New switches are nice depending on how they feel / sound.
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Offline mode

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 15:50:05 »
Yeah, I’d be all over it.

I’d also be keen on them experimenting a bit. I recently tried nexus housings with alps sliders and they felt amazing. POM top housings with an otherwise classic alps design could well be a winner! using them with the nexus sliders sucked imo, pom on pom  has weird squeaky binding.

There’s just definite scope to do even better, just focus on quality.

Offline envyy24

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 15:56:31 »
I will just be blunt and say: OP if you want to start your business now is the time because mech market is more hyped than ever.

I am skeptical at "making new switches with spring and leaf combo". What leaf? And there are already made alps springs so no lighter spring does not make it new switches.

I would be very interest in reproduction of old switches with new material. POM bottom housing and stem? Yes please. Something like that.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 16:32:48 »
Reproduction Alps SKCM blues as close to the originals as possible probably make the most business sense (I would also personally love it), as the originals are highly sought-after. Once these are resurrected and sales pick up, then one could experiment with materials and/or improvements and maybe resurrecting other members of the Alps family.

If they're recreated perfectly, I still think that that alone will convince others to start making greater variations in caps, PCBs, etc, and eventually finally kill MX in all but the industrial/POS markets.

Offline KawabataLuis

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 16:43:24 »
Actual reproduction near perfect (preferably) of classics I think would be the best place to start. If that gets traction and popularity, new switches could be interesting. One thing that the fact that this factory would only make switches makes me think, is the compatibility aspect. It would be interesting if board GBs would want to support them (Thinking from the perspective that if someone already have a alps board, it will already have alp switches that they might already like, of course that it also would make the possibility of grabbing a "cheap" alps board and put nicer switches, possible). Or maybe focusing on entry boards custom that are more commonly available to spread the usage of alps. Or both. Definitely send samples to streamers and interesting personas of the community. In other words, the possibilities are there, I just think that the start must be with well made replicas/reproductions.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 16:53:36 »
It won't matter if you reproduce older alps exactly the same..they'll still have the same reliability issues and the lack of keycap support.  You will just never grow that market enough....

Better designs to make them more reliable but to retain the same feel is probably a better idea.  And if you can make them MX compatible without messing with the feel, even better...

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 17:12:15 »
It won't matter if you reproduce older alps exactly the same..they'll still have the same reliability issues and the lack of keycap support.  You will just never grow that market enough....

Better designs to make them more reliable but to retain the same feel is probably a better idea.  And if you can make them MX compatible without messing with the feel, even better...

What do you mean about reliability issues? If kept clean, I haven't seen any that have any problems with them yet. Dirty/dusty ones suck, but that's the beauty of new production. Even with the original design, quick and easy availability would mean we wouldn't have to be tearing switches apart to (hopefully) restore their feel through cleaning. Just desolder and swap, or swap some guts around. Then there's also just taking better care of the keyboard in the first place.

I do see the point though if it is that it may not catch on in any market other than with enthusiasts vs, say, gamers. I don't know how many in that market actually use a single keyboard for long enough for the switches to start getting rough, even when abused.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline chyros

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 17:28:58 »
Keycaps I don't give too much of a **** about. I'm here for the switches.

They should be as exact as possible replicas of first-gen Alps switches. All changes and "updated" reproductions that came afterwards were considerably worse in every way. So no changes to the plastics, the leaf springs, it should have the actual switchplate (no cheap simplified contacts), housings with slits, the lot. **** updates.
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Online Rob27shred

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 17:36:40 »
Keycaps I don't give too much of a **** about. I'm here for the switches.

They should be as exact as possible replicas of first-gen Alps switches. All changes and "updated" reproductions that came afterwards were considerably worse in every way. So no changes to the plastics, the leaf springs, it should have the actual switchplate (no cheap simplified contacts), housings with slits, the lot. **** updates.

Here here, I second this! Our ALPS expert has spoken! :p Seriously though this the man to listen to about vintage switches. Also I think the most faithful copy possible to first generation SKCM/L ALPS switches will garner the most attention from ALPS enthusiasts & give you a viable product line to use as a cornerstone. Once you have that established you can do all the innovating you want!

Offline rhubarbpi

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 01 July 2020, 20:31:37 »
I will just be blunt and say: OP if you want to start your business now is the time because mech market is more hyped than ever.


I will neither confirm nor deny that I'm keeping all possibilities on the table for a future venture  :cool:  :thumb:

Reproduction Alps SKCM blues as close to the originals as possible probably make the most business sense (I would also personally love it), as the originals are highly sought-after. Once these are resurrected and sales pick up, then one could experiment with materials and/or improvements and maybe resurrecting other members of the Alps family.


Obviously, Alps SKCM Blue & Orange would be likely first candidates production wise.
THAT BEING SAID, what is a general consensus here from everyone who responded?
What 1st gen model would YOU like to see?  :thumb:

Keycaps I don't give too much of a **** about. I'm here for the switches.

They should be as exact as possible replicas of first-gen Alps switches. All changes and "updated" reproductions that came afterwards were considerably worse in every way. So no changes to the plastics, the leaf springs, it should have the actual switchplate (no cheap simplified contacts), housings with slits, the lot. **** updates.

Wonderful feedback, Thomas!
Keeping to 1st gen in every way possible would be high priority going forward!!!!!!!!!!!  :thumb:
 :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:






*daily drivers*

Apple AEK - #{Alps Orange}
Apple M0116 - #{Alps Salmon}
Apple M0110A - #{Alps Tall Cream}
Apple AEKII - #{Alps Dampened Cream}
Apple IIgs - #{Alps Orange}

 - all powered by tinkerBoy Converters :D

Offline rhubarbpi

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 15:48:38 »
So community consensus so far is that 1st Gen Complicated Alps, with no changes, is what the community would like to see.

Obviously, Alps SKCM Blue & Orange would be a given, but if a 3rd or 4th would be chosen - what would they be?

Alps Neon Green?
Alps Salmon?

 :thumb:
*daily drivers*

Apple AEK - #{Alps Orange}
Apple M0116 - #{Alps Salmon}
Apple M0110A - #{Alps Tall Cream}
Apple AEKII - #{Alps Dampened Cream}
Apple IIgs - #{Alps Orange}

 - all powered by tinkerBoy Converters :D

Offline Sup

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 16:00:34 »
So community consensus so far is that 1st Gen Complicated Alps, with no changes, is what the community would like to see.

Obviously, Alps SKCM Blue & Orange would be a given, but if a 3rd or 4th would be chosen - what would they be?

Alps Neon Green?
Alps Salmon?

 :thumb:

Neon green and Browns i would guess.
current
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Coming soon
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Offline mode

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 17:01:06 »
After blue and orange I’d be most interested in brown and amber. Perhaps with options for lighter springs for both though.

Online Rob27shred

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 17:07:35 »
So community consensus so far is that 1st Gen Complicated Alps, with no changes, is what the community would like to see.

Obviously, Alps SKCM Blue & Orange would be a given, but if a 3rd or 4th would be chosen - what would they be?

Alps Neon Green?
Alps Salmon?

 :thumb:

I would go blue & brown for the first 2 to be made. I honestly think oranges are more popular than browns just because of the availability, Oranges are much much easier to come across than browns. For a 3rd & 4th option I'd say Neon Greens & Oranges. Also I'd love to see a new linear SKCL switch, but admittedly that would be the least popular variant for sure.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 21:11:22 »
I'd much rather have more keycap options rather than new switches. New switches are nice depending on how they feel / sound.

chad cherry mount

Offline gnho

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 22:43:39 »
If you can perfectly reproduce blue, brown, orange, you will please all the alps lovers in the community, including me.

Now, if you want to hit it big, reproduce the original plus MX stem and dimension... I personally won't buy switches from anyone else.

Offline joecoolbob

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 02 July 2020, 22:52:43 »
Honestly I would want blues and browns the most. I would have to play with my undamped creams to see if i want to see those as well
268.2 | MEME | Kendo FE

Offline GlennL42

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 03 July 2020, 02:43:23 »
New SKCM switch will always be a welcoming plus to the keyboard market, though I don't think an entirely new switch company is warranted, for one, nothing about material of the 1st gen SKCM is particularly exotic, being made out of PBT for housing and Nylon for slider according to the patent, current switch manufacturer is most likely more than capable of making exact replica of SKCM if they want to.

That being said, I'll probably want to see repro SKCM Neon Green first, simply for the fact that these are really just too expansive/overly inflated currently and I really want to see people who spent 8 USD/switch on Neon Green shed salty tears over Neon Green market crash. Though what switch type to produce is a pretty minor issue for SKCM me think, since the leafspring is interchangeable anyways and is pretty simple in construction relative to the rest of the switch.

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 03 July 2020, 06:39:21 »
I'm gonna go a bit against the grain and say, gimme tech. Replicas IMO are a losing battle, as people will always convince themselves that the new ones are "not quite like the real thing", even though what you have might be a great switch in its own right.

Outside the enthusiast bubble, the big thing that we've been seeing lately is companies adapting existing switches to alternative modes of sensing. Lots of the big "clone" makers now have optical designs that use a slider and click sleeve or click bar in common with their conventional switches, allowing them to keep the same key feeling but greatly increase reliability. Varmilo has experimented with integrating capacitive sensing into a conventional MX-style design, and I know of at least one conventionally-shaped switch with Hall effect sensing in the works.

What I think would be really cool would be to do something similar, but based on an ALPS design-- not a replica of anything, just making it the best you can make. Beat the MX-derived switches in feel while kissing goodbye to the typical ALPS reliability bugbears. And the issues with dirt/dust affecting the feel will be long gone once you have both easily hot-swapped upper switches (easy to do when your means of sensing is on the PCB) and a fully waterproof design (also easy) that you can just wash if it gets dirty.
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Offline rhubarbpi

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 03 July 2020, 09:48:37 »
New SKCM switch will always be a welcoming plus to the keyboard market, though I don't think an entirely new switch company is warranted, for one, nothing about material of the 1st gen SKCM is particularly exotic, being made out of PBT for housing and Nylon for slider according to the patent, current switch manufacturer is most likely more than capable of making exact replica of SKCM if they want to.

I disagree - I truly believe an Alps exclusive switch company that isn't dabbling in other products (ie Matias) would aid the market vastly.  Look at Ebay & try to bid on an Alps Blue vintage board - try to come out less than 2 bills, no matter the condition!

Also, look at how many other MX only switch companies are out there - there can be at LEAST one that handles Alps only!  :thumb:
 
I think doing a repro of Alps Blues ALONE would justify its existence!

I'm gonna go a bit against the grain and say, gimme tech. Replicas IMO are a losing battle, as people will always convince themselves that the new ones are "not quite like the real thing", even though what you have might be a great switch in its own right.

Outside the enthusiast bubble, the big thing that we've been seeing lately is companies adapting existing switches to alternative modes of sensing. Lots of the big "clone" makers now have optical designs that use a slider and click sleeve or click bar in common with their conventional switches, allowing them to keep the same key feeling but greatly increase reliability. Varmilo has experimented with integrating capacitive sensing into a conventional MX-style design, and I know of at least one conventionally-shaped switch with Hall effect sensing in the works.

What I think would be really cool would be to do something similar, but based on an ALPS design-- not a replica of anything, just making it the best you can make. Beat the MX-derived switches in feel while kissing goodbye to the typical ALPS reliability bugbears. And the issues with dirt/dust affecting the feel will be long gone once you have both easily hot-swapped upper switches (easy to do when your means of sensing is on the PCB) and a fully waterproof design (also easy) that you can just wash if it gets dirty.

While I agree that sensing is something to possibly tackle in the future, I disagree that it's a losing battle to reproduce switches that are getting harder & harder to find daily. I just attempted at bidding on a Leading Edge DC 2014 & it ended at $240  :-[ - and that is 100% to do with them having Alps Blues.

I also feel Alps designs, if given a chance on a newer market, can finally start gaining acceptance outside of Vintage Enthusiasts.
If I can have anything to do with it - possibly, as this is all speculative momentarily - I feel its an absolutely noble cause to attempt.

And not just a *project* that does 1 batch here on GH and calls it a day - a company in it for the long haul.  :thumb:

*daily drivers*

Apple AEK - #{Alps Orange}
Apple M0116 - #{Alps Salmon}
Apple M0110A - #{Alps Tall Cream}
Apple AEKII - #{Alps Dampened Cream}
Apple IIgs - #{Alps Orange}

 - all powered by tinkerBoy Converters :D

Offline Little4Real

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 03 July 2020, 23:17:55 »
The only ones I can see being reproduced are Alps SKCM Blue and SKCM Orange. Blues and Oranges are nearly identical, except the click anyways. Also, if you were to reproduce any other switch, it should probably be SKCL Green and SKCM Neon Green. If SKCM Brown and Amber weren't TOO tactile, I would say those as well.

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #22 on: Sat, 04 July 2020, 00:26:02 »
I think it might make sense to think about what the cost centres are and how that affects your product line.

As I understand it, a major expense is the tooling for the plastic parts-- the case and sliders.  The springs can almost be "off the shelf" supplied, and the leaves are relatively simple metal folding.

If the design for the plastic is right, you can make three flavours based on them-- click-leaf, tactile-leaf, no-leaf linear. without too many reinventions.

Conversely, though, I'd love to see someone develop an available ALPS-ish switch that fits into the MX PCB and keycap ecosystem.

i-Rocks tried this, but their switch was only available in the form of a weird board that sold like 30 units and had damping that made it difficult to compare to many popular ALPS flavours.

Zeal teased a switch like this earlier in 2020, but there's been no news on it lately.
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 10:54:13 »
So community consensus so far is that 1st Gen Complicated Alps, with no changes, is what the community would like to see.

Obviously, Alps SKCM Blue & Orange would be a given, but if a 3rd or 4th would be chosen - what would they be?

Alps Neon Green?
Alps Salmon?

 :thumb:

I would go blue & brown for the first 2 to be made. I honestly think oranges are more popular than browns just because of the availability, Oranges are much much easier to come across than browns. For a 3rd & 4th option I'd say Neon Greens & Oranges. Also I'd love to see a new linear SKCL switch, but admittedly that would be the least popular variant for sure.

I haven't even tried neon greens, or oranges (ironically) yet. I did just recently get my first board with browns the other day though, and they're certainly wonderful as far as tactiles go.

If you can perfectly reproduce blue, brown, orange, you will please all the alps lovers in the community, including me.

Now, if you want to hit it big, reproduce the original plus MX stem and dimension... I personally won't buy switches from anyone else.

I think a stipulation for MX stem and dimension should at least come with a requirement that no compromise in sound and feel is made to accomplish it, otherwise I think a lot of people would rather just settle for using whatever random Tai Hao caps they can find instead.

I'm gonna go a bit against the grain and say, gimme tech. Replicas IMO are a losing battle, as people will always convince themselves that the new ones are "not quite like the real thing", even though what you have might be a great switch in its own right.

Outside the enthusiast bubble, the big thing that we've been seeing lately is companies adapting existing switches to alternative modes of sensing. Lots of the big "clone" makers now have optical designs that use a slider and click sleeve or click bar in common with their conventional switches, allowing them to keep the same key feeling but greatly increase reliability. Varmilo has experimented with integrating capacitive sensing into a conventional MX-style design, and I know of at least one conventionally-shaped switch with Hall effect sensing in the works.

What I think would be really cool would be to do something similar, but based on an ALPS design-- not a replica of anything, just making it the best you can make. Beat the MX-derived switches in feel while kissing goodbye to the typical ALPS reliability bugbears. And the issues with dirt/dust affecting the feel will be long gone once you have both easily hot-swapped upper switches (easy to do when your means of sensing is on the PCB) and a fully waterproof design (also easy) that you can just wash if it gets dirty.

Then you're kind of just competing with Matias though. They've already got wonderful Alps descendants. I have wondered whether or not they tend to eventually develop the same problems with scratchiness if they get really dirty. They do have that reputation for chatter, but outside of a brand new board having it a few times within the first hour (and then vanishing), I haven't encountered it yet on new or used boards. They're also pretty cheap, so there would have to be some major benefits in both feel and sound over Matias in that scenario, if you ask me.

New SKCM switch will always be a welcoming plus to the keyboard market, though I don't think an entirely new switch company is warranted, for one, nothing about material of the 1st gen SKCM is particularly exotic, being made out of PBT for housing and Nylon for slider according to the patent, current switch manufacturer is most likely more than capable of making exact replica of SKCM if they want to.

I disagree - I truly believe an Alps exclusive switch company that isn't dabbling in other products (ie Matias) would aid the market vastly.  Look at Ebay & try to bid on an Alps Blue vintage board - try to come out less than 2 bills, no matter the condition!

Also, look at how many other MX only switch companies are out there - there can be at LEAST one that handles Alps only!  :thumb:
 
I think doing a repro of Alps Blues ALONE would justify its existence!

Here, here!

While I agree that sensing is something to possibly tackle in the future, I disagree that it's a losing battle to reproduce switches that are getting harder & harder to find daily. I just attempted at bidding on a Leading Edge DC 2014 & it ended at $240  :-[ - and that is 100% to do with them having Alps Blues.

I love DC-2014s in general. There's something really cool about their convenient pen gutters, their weird flip-out feet, the cable that comes out of the side of the board, their hollow yet deep-sounding cases (which are also still relatively well-made by my estimation). Great keyboards.

I also feel Alps designs, if given a chance on a newer market, can finally start gaining acceptance outside of Vintage Enthusiasts.
If I can have anything to do with it - possibly, as this is all speculative momentarily - I feel its an absolutely noble cause to attempt.

And not just a *project* that does 1 batch here on GH and calls it a day - a company in it for the long haul.  :thumb:

We need more people who think like yourself, sir. If I were rich, or had any relevant skills whatsoever, I would certainly want to help kick-start such an endeavor.

The only ones I can see being reproduced are Alps SKCM Blue and SKCM Orange. Blues and Oranges are nearly identical, except the click anyways. Also, if you were to reproduce any other switch, it should probably be SKCL Green and SKCM Neon Green. If SKCM Brown and Amber weren't TOO tactile, I would say those as well.

SKCL greens are certainly very nice. I think I'm probably strange in that I haven't been able to tell much difference between green and yellow.

I haven't noticed brown being too tactile, and it hadn't occurred to me that anyone might. It sounds like it is time for me to pull  some ancient Alps boards and switch testers back out tonight.

Offline moh18one

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 12:16:29 »
With just a simple reproduction, you are targeting a niche into a niche, so don't lose your money on this project.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 13:02:58 »
With just a simple reproduction, you are targeting a niche into a niche, so don't lose your money on this project.

Or, targeting clicky switch market dominance, if nothing more comprehensive/lofty. I think that if more people could try Alps SKCM/SKCL switches that are in new condition, or even at all, and actually purchase them loose at a reasonable price, they would become far more than a niche.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Hypothetical Q/A: New Alps Style Switch Company
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 06 July 2020, 13:23:44 »
It won't matter if you reproduce older alps exactly the same..they'll still have the same reliability issues and the lack of keycap support.  You will just never grow that market enough....

Better designs to make them more reliable but to retain the same feel is probably a better idea.  And if you can make them MX compatible without messing with the feel, even better...

What do you mean about reliability issues? If kept clean, I haven't seen any that have any problems with them yet. Dirty/dusty ones suck, but that's the beauty of new production. Even with the original design, quick and easy availability would mean we wouldn't have to be tearing switches apart to (hopefully) restore their feel through cleaning. Just desolder and swap, or swap some guts around. Then there's also just taking better care of the keyboard in the first place.

I do see the point though if it is that it may not catch on in any market other than with enthusiasts vs, say, gamers. I don't know how many in that market actually use a single keyboard for long enough for the switches to start getting rough, even when abused.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've been using Alps for more than 35 years....they're just not that reliable...Yes, the later designs were far worse...

The problem w/ trying to recreate the originals is you're building them with whatever flaws they had as well.  Why not try to retain the feel and general engineering but make improvements to the design?

If the business plan is to recreate the original designs to capture some market share to support further innovation..ok great...but longer term the goal needs to be to make better switches....

I'm making some broad assumptions here..such as the cost per switch is going to be relatively high with the relatively low volume expected...