On the availability of ISO in GB

[Gouty]

From a survey I did a couple years ago (link here)

Raw data are all there if you want to do a breakdown of where the ISO users are.  If I did this again I'd probably break it down into "do you use ISO/ANSI?" questions as there are probably many people that prefer ISO that use ANSI and vice versa.

[depletedvespene]

…
We used to have kits for “exotic layouts” like Tsangan or Moggle.
At some point, people noticed how popular those kits were, so they integrated them into the base kit.
Meanwhile, the one recent time we experimented with moving the ISO keys out, well:

Show Image

And at >800 base kits sold, you can’t say this was not a popular set.

Notice that that was a UK ISO set, not an ISO set. Sorry to be banging this particular drum so much, but let's please NOT confuse "ISO support" with "UK ISO support".

I'm gonna have to sell off my GMK Jamón set in protest (the eñe survival kits will stay with me, though).

[lewisflude]

(Attachment Link)

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 1767 base kits is about 4% of all orders.

Note that ALL base kits (and the alternate alphas) in Oblivion already support US ISO, so that 4% is strictly for the international kit... which is NORDEUK with a different name.

Extremely important point, 4% of people wanted correct legends but actual ISO usage is likely higher.

[depletedvespene]

Show Image

From a survey I did a couple years ago (link here)

Raw data are all there if you want to do a breakdown of where the ISO users are.  If I did this again I'd probably break it down into "do you use ISO/ANSI?" questions as there are probably many people that prefer ISO that use ANSI and vice versa.

Almost 20% ISO... not "two or three guys here and there".  :thumb:

[ideus]

If you stick to beige and wob colors there have been GB that supports most EU localizations. I use SW layout that it is very hard to get, but using those basic color ways I am fine. Most international kits barely reach MoQ so it is really not fair for US ANSI users to be loaded with the extra cost, no matter if it is four, nine o any other amount of extra caps. It is just not fair for asking most people paying for keys that they will never use.

[lewisflude]

If you stick to beige and wob colors there have been GB that supports most EU localizations. I use SW layout that it is very hard to get, but using those basic color ways I am fine. Most international kits barely reach MoQ so it is really not fair for US ANSI users to be loaded with the extra cost, no matter if it is four, nine o any other amount of extra caps. It is just not fair for asking most people paying for keys that they will never use.

But ISO users also have to pay for caps they don’t use (ANSI keys are useless).

I’m not sure anyone can claim to use all of the caps they pay for, so I don’t think you’ve got a very good point! Does everyone always use 1800? 40s? F keys?

This discussion is primarily about ISO support, international keys to get correct legends is a plus. ISO in the base kit is the bare minimum I expect to see.

[Poesjuh]

If you stick to beige and wob colors there have been GB that supports most EU localizations. I use SW layout that it is very hard to get, but using those basic color ways I am fine. Most international kits barely reach MoQ so it is really not fair for US ANSI users to be loaded with the extra cost, no matter if it is four, nine o any other amount of extra caps. It is just not fair for asking most people paying for keys that they will never use.

But ISO users also have to pay for caps they don’t use (ANSI keys are useless).

I’m not sure anyone can claim to use all of the caps they pay for, so I don’t think you’ve got a very good point! Does everyone always use 1800? 40s? F keys?

This discussion is primarily about ISO support, international keys to get correct legends is a plus. ISO in the base kit is the bare minimum I expect to see.

This.

But it's ok, I think it's totally fair that I keep paying for F keys even though I don't use keyboards that actually have them. Talking about that regular capslock, no need only used stepped.

Can we drop the whole "it's not fair that ansi users have to pay for iso keys argument", I think it's a kinda childish argument, no offence ment.

Small edit; we all have to pay for keys we don’t use for the greater good, iso keys are a part of that / should be.

[depletedvespene]

We are reaching the point where we're starting to repeat each one's main arguments.

How about we get some fresh data and make a poll about this, open to all geekhackers instead of just the ones participating in this thread, to assess the general opinion of the community on this issue and whether the US ISO compromise would be acceptable?

FIRST DRAFT of the questions to be asked (with my own answers, both as an example and so you can spot a possible bias):

- What is your country of residence? (Chile)
- What is your main language? (Spanish)
- If applicable, what is a secondary language you frequently use? (English)

- On your keyboard(s), what is(are) the main physical layout(s) you use? (full-size, battleship, TKL, 75%)
- What kind of Enter key do you prefer? (ISO)
- What kind of Enter key do you use? (ISO and ANSI)

- Do you think of "ISO" as a separate layout, or as a variant, in the same way non-stepped and stepped Caps Lock keys are? (variant)
- When "ISO support in the base kit" is talked about in an upcoming keyset, what do you actually think it means? {image of a single Enter key} {image of the four keys of US ISO} {image of the nine keys in UK ISO} (US ISO)

- If it came only TO YOU, what would you rather have in the base kit (this besides every other variation in layout support)? {no ISO support whatsoever} {physical ISO only - meaning just the 1.25U left Shift and the ISO Enter key} {US ISO support - meaning 4 keys: left Shift, Enter, R3 and R4 \| keys} {UK ISO support - meaning nine keys: the four above plus `¬ 2" 3£ '€ #~ } {whatever ISO support, but in a separate kit only} (US ISO)

- The US ISO compromise (see below) has been proposed as a compromise solution to the complaints about ISO support. Would you accept it? {Yes} {No} (yes)

- Would adding a BAE Enter key (plus a 1U Backspace key) to the base kit be an acceptable addition to this compromise? {yes, put them in the base kit always} {write it into the compromise, but make BAE optional} {no, base kits should never be expected to have a BAE} (make it optional)


The US ISO compromise suggests the following:

• Base kits should continue to have full US English ANSI support, as has been the case since "always".
• Base kits should contain four more keys, to ensure US English ISO support: (mod-colored) 1.25U R4 left Shift, (mod-colored) ISO Enter, alpha-colored R3 and R4 \| keys.
• A set designer may ADD accent-colored ISO Enter keys if he or she wants to. An (alpha-colored) R4 <> key may also be added.
• Alpha legends for country/languages others than US English should NOT be part of a base kit. UK English support, for example (meaning in this the five keys `¬ 2" 3£ '€ #~) should be part of an international kit.
• An international kit for whatever language or group of languages (NORDE, NORDEUK, LAPTES, BEFRIT, etc.) should be composed of the necessary alpha keys, PLUS the AltGr key(s). The AltGr keys included in an international kit should be in the same numbers, shapes and legends (¿or "legends and icons"?) as to replace all the Alt keys in the base kit that are meant to be placed in the RALT position.
• Key legends for modifier keys in the base kit are expected to remain in English; legends in other languages ("Strg", "Mayús", etc.), if present, should be in the relevant international kit (NORDEUK and LAPTES in the examples above).

- Have you ever farted and burped at the same time?


Ok, guys and gals. Review the draft and suggest changes.

[nguyenhimself]

(Attachment Link)

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 788 base kits is over 8% of all orders.

Imagine if any other community alienated 8% of the hobbyists around the world so that the majority can save less than 1-2% off their order? All of us support keys we don't use, it's just par for the course with buying keysets. Removing ISO benefits many people a tiny bit (financially) at the cost of totally removing that set as an option for a large community of people. Not all Europeans want to use ANSI.

This is a clear example of how Jamon is a really bad example to cherrypick. This is especially surprising given how over 50% of all traffic to Drop comes from America/Canada alone. The site and it's userbase has a massive US bias that is not representative of the wider keyboard community.

Oblivion has 4 base kits, 3 if you (rightly) exclude the Assembly one.
That’s 68 out of 1615, or 4%.
And remember, Massdrop GBs don’t have international proxies, so those numbers include all the buyers from China and other Asian countries, all of whom use ANSI.

I’m aware that US, Canada, China primarily use ANSI, whereas the rest of the world uses ISO. It’s about a 50/50 split globally.

You’re one of those people who think Asia is just China and Japan, huh?

[lewisflude]

(Attachment Link)

In Oblivion, 66 international kits out of 788 base kits is over 8% of all orders.

Imagine if any other community alienated 8% of the hobbyists around the world so that the majority can save less than 1-2% off their order? All of us support keys we don't use, it's just par for the course with buying keysets. Removing ISO benefits many people a tiny bit (financially) at the cost of totally removing that set as an option for a large community of people. Not all Europeans want to use ANSI.

This is a clear example of how Jamon is a really bad example to cherrypick. This is especially surprising given how over 50% of all traffic to Drop comes from America/Canada alone. The site and it's userbase has a massive US bias that is not representative of the wider keyboard community.

Oblivion has 4 base kits, 3 if you (rightly) exclude the Assembly one.
That’s 68 out of 1615, or 4%.
And remember, Massdrop GBs don’t have international proxies, so those numbers include all the buyers from China and other Asian countries, all of whom use ANSI.

I’m aware that US, Canada, China primarily use ANSI, whereas the rest of the world uses ISO. It’s about a 50/50 split globally.

You’re one of those people who think Asia is just China and Japan, huh?

Show Image

There’s plenty of countries I didn’t list, no need to be pedantic. You seemed to have totally ignored my point. ISO vs ANSI usage around the world is roughly 50/50.

[depletedvespene]

…
You’re one of those people who think Asia is just China and Japan, huh?

Show Image

Where did North Korea go? Ain't present in either image...

EDIT: damn, I'm blind. There it was all along.

[jonowarren94]

How about we get some fresh data and make a poll about this, open to all geekhackers instead of just the ones participating in this thread, to assess the general opinion of the community on this issue and whether the US ISO compromise would be acceptable?

I know its semantics but maybe just call it ISO? ISO-US is kind of confusing as almost no-one uses it  )

But good idea, maybe open open to other keyboard communities also?

[tobiasvl]

Lots of good discussion here! Some people have been talking percentages; the aforementioned survey from 2017 has 77.5% ANSI and 19.5% ISO. Meanwhile, the GH community survey from 2014 (from 2014) says that 75% of respondents use ANSI, and 14% use ISO, but that's the "keyboard layout" category which also has "Ergonomic" on it. Even the surveys are skewed and hard to compare because people conflate "layouts" and "variants".

For keycaps personally I won't buy it unless it supports my layout with the correct legends, but I'm in the minority here (I think?).

You definitely are, but you're not alone! It works both ways too: If a set has an international/NorDe kit, I'm much more likely to buy it almost regardless of how much I like it. OK, I don't buy sets I totally hate, but having correct legends on the keys is a very important aesthetic aspect of a keycap set to me and I give it more weight than many other considerations when buying a set.

But the most important part is still, of course, physical ISO compatibility. If I literally can't put it on my keyboard, then I'm not going to buy an otherwise perfect set, even without the correct legends. I have used ISO my entire life, I prefer ISO (although I also like HHKB, since it solves the "wide alpha" problem of ANSI, it needs a split left shift!), and I have a couple hotswap boards with fixed ISO layouts.

To me, the perfect solution is definitely the aforementioned "US-ISO in base kit + extra NorDeUK kit". Someone already mentioned it's wasteful to throw away the extra ISO caps in the base set, but in this case I think it's best to lump the legended NorDeUK caps together for a higher change to MOQ. Personally, I'm much more willing to throw money at a set if it includes a NorDe kit, and I know going in that I always have to pay extra to get ISO compat anyway, let alone my esoteric legends. Nordic and German is already "always" grouped together; throw UK in there as well.

There's an interesting thread on DT where someone tried to put together the smallest possible NorDeUK kit: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14983&start=

[depletedvespene]

How about we get some fresh data and make a poll about this, open to all geekhackers instead of just the ones participating in this thread, to assess the general opinion of the community on this issue and whether the US ISO compromise would be acceptable?

I know its semantics but maybe just call it ISO? ISO-US is kind of confusing as almost no-one uses it  )

Of course it's semantics.

The reason I'm insisting on talking about "US ISO" is precisely because many people think that "ISO support" and "UK ISO support" are the same thing, and that mental block is an important part of the problem — therefore, breaking it is an important part of the solution.

But good idea, maybe open open to other keyboard communities also?

Hell, YES! But first, let's agree on the questions (and answering options) this poll should have, THEN post it on DT, reddit, KeebTalk and wherever else.

[jonowarren94]

Hell, YES! But first, let's agree on the questions (and answering options) this poll should have, THEN post it on DT, reddit, KeebTalk and wherever else.

I think so long as it asks:

• Country
• Language
• Preferred layout (mainly size: 40/60/65/75/full/ergo)?
• Most used layout
• Layout variants you use: hhkb, stepped caps/control, iso, minilla, split space, I said ergo! ect - maybe have the ability to select multiple here!

This would be a good amount of data to collect without being tedious to fill in, and if it can inform people the approximate ratio of users out there in the community, as at the moment we really don't know. With layout ambiguous kits like XDA Canvas probably being our best estimate (at least for those that joined the GB).

[depletedvespene]

Hell, YES! But first, let's agree on the questions (and answering options) this poll should have, THEN post it on DT, reddit, KeebTalk and wherever else.

I think so long as it asks:

• Country
• Language
• Preferred layout (mainly size: 40/60/65/75/full/ergo)?
• Most used layout
• Layout variants you use: hhkb, stepped caps/control, iso, minilla, split space, I said ergo! ect - maybe have the ability to select multiple here!

This would be a good amount of data to collect without being tedious to fill in, and if it can inform people the approximate ratio of users out there in the community, as at the moment we really don't know. With layout ambiguous kits like XDA Canvas probably being our best estimate (at least for those that joined the GB).

I think we can split the questions into three groups (there's not that many of them, anyway): "about yourself", "what is your take on the ISO problem" and "what do you think of this solution to the ISO problem".

I'm unsure about adding questions about other variants (Caps Lock, HHKB-style backspace, etc.), but the debate in this thread should help settle that.

[ideus]

If you stick to beige and wob colors there have been GB that supports most EU localizations. I use SW layout that it is very hard to get, but using those basic color ways I am fine. Most international kits barely reach MoQ so it is really not fair for US ANSI users to be loaded with the extra cost, no matter if it is four, nine o any other amount of extra caps. It is just not fair for asking most people paying for keys that they will never use.

But ISO users also have to pay for caps they don’t use (ANSI keys are useless).

I’m not sure anyone can claim to use all of the caps they pay for, so I don’t think you’ve got a very good point! Does everyone always use 1800? 40s? F keys?

This discussion is primarily about ISO support, international keys to get correct legends is a plus. ISO in the base kit is the bare minimum I expect to see.

This.

But it's ok, I think it's totally fair that I keep paying for F keys even though I don't use keyboards that actually have them. Talking about that regular capslock, no need only used stepped.

Can we drop the whole "it's not fair that ansi users have to pay for iso keys argument", I think it's a kinda childish argument, no offence ment.

Small edit; we all have to pay for keys we don’t use for the greater good, iso keys are a part of that / should be.

I agree with you guys. I misunderstood the question. But, it should be rephrase for On availability of ISO UK Eng in GB.


For ISO I understand the full locale that I use, my bad.

[lewisflude]

If you stick to beige and wob colors there have been GB that supports most EU localizations. I use SW layout that it is very hard to get, but using those basic color ways I am fine. Most international kits barely reach MoQ so it is really not fair for US ANSI users to be loaded with the extra cost, no matter if it is four, nine o any other amount of extra caps. It is just not fair for asking most people paying for keys that they will never use.

But ISO users also have to pay for caps they don’t use (ANSI keys are useless).

I’m not sure anyone can claim to use all of the caps they pay for, so I don’t think you’ve got a very good point! Does everyone always use 1800? 40s? F keys?

This discussion is primarily about ISO support, international keys to get correct legends is a plus. ISO in the base kit is the bare minimum I expect to see.

This.

But it's ok, I think it's totally fair that I keep paying for F keys even though I don't use keyboards that actually have them. Talking about that regular capslock, no need only used stepped.

Can we drop the whole "it's not fair that ansi users have to pay for iso keys argument", I think it's a kinda childish argument, no offence ment.

Small edit; we all have to pay for keys we don’t use for the greater good, iso keys are a part of that / should be.

I agree with you guys. I misunderstood the question. But, it should be rephrase for On availability of ISO UK Eng in GB.


For ISO I understand the full locale that I use, my bad.

It’s an easy mistake to make! I can totally see how it’d get confusing.

What we’re saying is that:

ISO (4 keys) should always be in base kit. This is the minimum that’s expected from ISO users.

Optionally a NorDeUk kit can be offered if it’s likely MOQ will be reached. This contains all other keys needed for correct legends including the extra 5 keys needed for UK-ISO.

[Myoth]

And well ... the pcb argument .... the pcb problem is a dumb one brought by lazy pcb makers, not going to lie lol. The "swiss cheese effect" for the ISO keys, but they're fine with having 10000000 bottom rows ? miss me with that ****, if PCB makers really cared about the "swiss cheese effect", we'd only have tsangan and poker supported, for a TKL at least.

For the board mentioned, I can see effort has been put to make the cleanest PCB possible, but at the same time, I don't think putting ISO would have hurt the thing.

You're missing the point here. I can put ISO on a PCB, it's not particularly hard, I'm not "lazy", I designed Zeal60 which had ANSI and ISO and in-switch RGB, and I did it just to prove one could do both, some things are sub-optimal but it works. It was designed to fit in 60% tray cases, not as part of a custom keyboard "kit" (case + PCB), so it makes sense.

The arms race to put as many layouts as possible on a PCB has led to the "swiss cheese". Now, people who don't want "swiss cheese" create a demand for "cleaner" PCBs, single-layout or minimal layout PCBs, the custom case designers choose this, and I make it. Other case designers favour compatibility and choose to add more layouts on the PCB and/or plates. That's their choice, too. There are no right or wrong answers, just choices and diversity.

I don't think ISO is the biggest problem on many PCBs, while I do agree with what you say, for the sake of the argument, I can't really play devil's advocate. Else everything is subjective and there isn't any argument. Maybe lazy was too much of a buzzword, but come on, I HIGHLY doubt 8 pads are the end of the world. Clean PCBs and are nice, and I respect it, but I don't think adding ISO support dirties them or whatever, and if I were to make PCBs, ISO + tsangan would be the least they would be, on any of them. But I don't make any. So eh ?

The thing is that what you feel doesn't matter. When someone designs a custom keyboard they have a choice to make, design wise. The choice to remove iso compatibility obviously disappoints people who like iso, but most people who prefer ansi prefer to have their expensive high end customs not have cheese pcb/plate. The beauty of this hobby is you absolutely have that freedom. Make your own boards, or support the designers who add iso compatibility to their projects even if they don't need to.

Interesting discussion though about Iso. Personally, I think it's an unfortunate situation not sure what's to be done about it. I empathize with the frustration of not being able to use the keysets you're interested in on the boards you buy. I recognize that's unfortunate for a hobby designed around making the perfect board for yourself. On the other hand though 100% of these arguments proposed here can work for any odd layout. I'm making a keyboard with 2x r3 1.25u keys. If that gets popular can I start demanding those? It's only 2 keys! What about the high amount of 40s users, why can't they demand we include 1.25u r3 tab key and a 1.75u r3 enter key in base kits. I understand it's annoying but regardless of whatever percentage of the globe supports ISO, it's absolutely a small minority in custom mechanical keyboards, period.

What is the point of arguing if you're going to say "well, it's the choice of the maker !!!!!!" like cool bro, that means only what they think is necessary, which is pretty counter-productive if you're trying to appeal to a larger mass. Anyway ...

You didn't read my original post did you ? plates should always be fixed, as I said, and like I said I do not think 8 pads are the end of the world, my KMAC2 has very limited pcb layouts, and it's not better or worse than a run of the mill H87 or whatever the standard is. If you indeed think that you ABOSLUTELY need not these 8 pads, then reconsider split backspace and split rshift on a TKL, or if you want to take the thing even further, take a look at the XD60, 8pads when they are like 200 on it.... come on man

and I agree that it's a minority, but it's not small enough to be overlooked, the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby, I remember when I was looking for custom options and there was no ISO keycaps, and you god damn know how important keycaps are to a keyboard, and no you really don't understand what the lack of keycaps mean, you don't live for decades using a layout, getting into a hobby and seeing there are absolutely NO options for it, that's how using AZERTY in the hobby feels like, and I don't even use AZERTY. ISO is necessary, those 4 caps are totally necessary as they mean you can *at least* learn how to touch-type to still use your layout. And, optionally, open your keyset to 1/5th of the market

[Acereconkeys]

What is the point of arguing if you're going to say "well, it's the choice of the maker !!!!!!" like cool bro, that means only what they think is necessary, which is pretty counter-productive if you're trying to appeal to a larger mass. Anyway ...

You didn't read my original post did you ? plates should always be fixed, as I said, and like I said I do not think 8 pads are the end of the world, my KMAC2 has very limited pcb layouts, and it's not better or worse than a run of the mill H87 or whatever the standard is. If you indeed think that you ABOSLUTELY need not these 8 pads, then reconsider split backspace and split rshift on a TKL, or if you want to take the thing even further, take a look at the XD60, 8pads when they are like 200 on it.... come on man

and I agree that it's a minority, but it's not small enough to be overlooked, the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby, I remember when I was looking for custom options and there was no ISO keycaps, and you god damn know how important keycaps are to a keyboard, and no you really don't understand what the lack of keycaps mean, you don't live for decades using a layout, getting into a hobby and seeing there are absolutely NO options for it, that's how using AZERTY in the hobby feels like, and I don't even use AZERTY. ISO is necessary, those 4 caps are totally necessary as they mean you can *at least* learn how to touch-type to still use your layout. And, optionally, open your keyset to 1/5th of the market

We must have both missed each others points.

My point is Iso is not special compared to other unpopular layouts like 40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (lol). Everyone wants the hobby to cater to their interests and make keysets that work for the boards they have/want.

You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference.

I'm trying to be empathatic and understand how frustrating it is that you don't have your layout of choice supported in base kits, but neither do I.

[lewisflude]

What is the point of arguing if you're going to say "well, it's the choice of the maker !!!!!!" like cool bro, that means only what they think is necessary, which is pretty counter-productive if you're trying to appeal to a larger mass. Anyway ...

You didn't read my original post did you ? plates should always be fixed, as I said, and like I said I do not think 8 pads are the end of the world, my KMAC2 has very limited pcb layouts, and it's not better or worse than a run of the mill H87 or whatever the standard is. If you indeed think that you ABOSLUTELY need not these 8 pads, then reconsider split backspace and split rshift on a TKL, or if you want to take the thing even further, take a look at the XD60, 8pads when they are like 200 on it.... come on man

and I agree that it's a minority, but it's not small enough to be overlooked, the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby, I remember when I was looking for custom options and there was no ISO keycaps, and you god damn know how important keycaps are to a keyboard, and no you really don't understand what the lack of keycaps mean, you don't live for decades using a layout, getting into a hobby and seeing there are absolutely NO options for it, that's how using AZERTY in the hobby feels like, and I don't even use AZERTY. ISO is necessary, those 4 caps are totally necessary as they mean you can *at least* learn how to touch-type to still use your layout. And, optionally, open your keyset to 1/5th of the market

We must have both missed each others points.

My point is Iso is not special compared to other unpopular layouts like 40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (lol). Everyone wants the hobby to cater to their interests and make keysets that work for the boards they have/want.

You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference.

I'm trying to be empathatic and understand how frustrating it is that you don't have your layout of choice supported in base kits, but neither do I.

ISO isn’t a layout, it’s a variant that 50% of the world and 20% of the mechanical keyboard community use.

There is ISO 40%, ISO 60%, ISO 1800 etc.

Many (most?) boards offer ISO and ANSI variants out of the box. It’s one of the two defaults available to people.

I totally understand from a financial perspective how the numbers sometimes work out, but the need for ISO in mechanical keyboards is there and for a huge part of the global community it really matters.

It might not be as visible from within the ANSI-using community, but it’s mostly definitely there.

People getting into this hobby want a keyboard that fits their preference, and for a significant and growing part of the global mechanical keyboards community they want ISO.

[Acereconkeys]

What is the point of arguing if you're going to say "well, it's the choice of the maker !!!!!!" like cool bro, that means only what they think is necessary, which is pretty counter-productive if you're trying to appeal to a larger mass. Anyway ...

You didn't read my original post did you ? plates should always be fixed, as I said, and like I said I do not think 8 pads are the end of the world, my KMAC2 has very limited pcb layouts, and it's not better or worse than a run of the mill H87 or whatever the standard is. If you indeed think that you ABOSLUTELY need not these 8 pads, then reconsider split backspace and split rshift on a TKL, or if you want to take the thing even further, take a look at the XD60, 8pads when they are like 200 on it.... come on man

and I agree that it's a minority, but it's not small enough to be overlooked, the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby, I remember when I was looking for custom options and there was no ISO keycaps, and you god damn know how important keycaps are to a keyboard, and no you really don't understand what the lack of keycaps mean, you don't live for decades using a layout, getting into a hobby and seeing there are absolutely NO options for it, that's how using AZERTY in the hobby feels like, and I don't even use AZERTY. ISO is necessary, those 4 caps are totally necessary as they mean you can *at least* learn how to touch-type to still use your layout. And, optionally, open your keyset to 1/5th of the market

We must have both missed each others points.

My point is Iso is not special compared to other unpopular layouts like 40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (lol). Everyone wants the hobby to cater to their interests and make keysets that work for the boards they have/want.

You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference.

I'm trying to be empathatic and understand how frustrating it is that you don't have your layout of choice supported in base kits, but neither do I.

ISO isn’t a layout, it’s a variant that 50% of the world and 20% of the mechanical keyboard community use.

There is ISO 40%, ISO 60%, ISO 1800 etc.

Many (most?) boards offer ISO and ANSI variants out of the box. It’s one of the two defaults available to people.

I totally understand from a financial perspective how the numbers sometimes work out, but the need for ISO in mechanical keyboards is there and for a huge part of the global community it really matters.

It might not be as visible from within the ANSI-using community, but it’s mostly definitely there.

People getting into this hobby want a keyboard that fits their preference, and for a significant and growing part of the global mechanical keyboards community they want ISO.

As i've discussed multiple times earlier, for the purposes of a gb runner choosing keycap compatibility, Iso is a layout just like any other one. You're not somehow more important than other users just because your preference comes from existing keyboards and can work with other layouts. That's unfair. When iso is not included in a gb you don't get to use that keycap set on your favorite keyboard. When 40% compatibility is not included in a gb I don't get to use it on my keyboard. It's 100% exactly the same.

[lewisflude]

What is the point of arguing if you're going to say "well, it's the choice of the maker !!!!!!" like cool bro, that means only what they think is necessary, which is pretty counter-productive if you're trying to appeal to a larger mass. Anyway ...

You didn't read my original post did you ? plates should always be fixed, as I said, and like I said I do not think 8 pads are the end of the world, my KMAC2 has very limited pcb layouts, and it's not better or worse than a run of the mill H87 or whatever the standard is. If you indeed think that you ABOSLUTELY need not these 8 pads, then reconsider split backspace and split rshift on a TKL, or if you want to take the thing even further, take a look at the XD60, 8pads when they are like 200 on it.... come on man

and I agree that it's a minority, but it's not small enough to be overlooked, the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby, I remember when I was looking for custom options and there was no ISO keycaps, and you god damn know how important keycaps are to a keyboard, and no you really don't understand what the lack of keycaps mean, you don't live for decades using a layout, getting into a hobby and seeing there are absolutely NO options for it, that's how using AZERTY in the hobby feels like, and I don't even use AZERTY. ISO is necessary, those 4 caps are totally necessary as they mean you can *at least* learn how to touch-type to still use your layout. And, optionally, open your keyset to 1/5th of the market

We must have both missed each others points.

My point is Iso is not special compared to other unpopular layouts like 40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (lol). Everyone wants the hobby to cater to their interests and make keysets that work for the boards they have/want.

You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference.

I'm trying to be empathatic and understand how frustrating it is that you don't have your layout of choice supported in base kits, but neither do I.

ISO isn’t a layout, it’s a variant that 50% of the world and 20% of the mechanical keyboard community use.

There is ISO 40%, ISO 60%, ISO 1800 etc.

Many (most?) boards offer ISO and ANSI variants out of the box. It’s one of the two defaults available to people.

I totally understand from a financial perspective how the numbers sometimes work out, but the need for ISO in mechanical keyboards is there and for a huge part of the global community it really matters.

It might not be as visible from within the ANSI-using community, but it’s mostly definitely there.

People getting into this hobby want a keyboard that fits their preference, and for a significant and growing part of the global mechanical keyboards community they want ISO.

As i've discussed multiple times earlier, for the purposes of a gb runner choosing keycap compatibility, Iso is a layout just like any other one. You're not somehow more important than other users just because your preference comes from existing keyboards and can work with other layouts. That's unfair. When iso is not included in a gb you don't get to use that keycap set on your favorite keyboard. When 40% compatibility is not included in a gb I don't get to use it on my keyboard. It's 100% exactly the same.

You can get 40s coverage quite easily without a dedicated 40s kit, you just end up with incorrect legends so in that respect a 40s kit is more similar to a NorDeUk kit.

I don’t mind having incorrect legends (that much) as long as they keys physically fit on the board.

[Acereconkeys]

ISO isn’t a layout, it’s a variant that 50% of the world and 20% of the mechanical keyboard community use.

There is ISO 40%, ISO 60%, ISO 1800 etc.

Many (most?) boards offer ISO and ANSI variants out of the box. It’s one of the two defaults available to people.

I totally understand from a financial perspective how the numbers sometimes work out, but the need for ISO in mechanical keyboards is there and for a huge part of the global community it really matters.

It might not be as visible from within the ANSI-using community, but it’s mostly definitely there.

People getting into this hobby want a keyboard that fits their preference, and for a significant and growing part of the global mechanical keyboards community they want ISO.

As i've discussed multiple times earlier, for the purposes of a gb runner choosing keycap compatibility, Iso is a layout just like any other one. You're not somehow more important than other users just because your preference comes from existing keyboards and can work with other layouts. That's unfair. When iso is not included in a gb you don't get to use that keycap set on your favorite keyboard. When 40% compatibility is not included in a gb I don't get to use it on my keyboard. It's 100% exactly the same.

You can get 40s coverage quite easily without a dedicated 40s kit, you just end up with incorrect legends so in that respect a 40s kit is more similar to a NorDeUk kit.

I don’t mind having incorrect legends (that much) as long as they keys physically fit on the board.

Where do I get a 1.75u r3 key? or a 1.25u r3 key? These are not just in the perfect legend but not given keycaps.

[Poesjuh]

1.75 is the shift, 1.25 is the ISO left shift

[depletedvespene]

1.75 is the shift, 1.25 is the ISO left shift

But those are R3++.

[Acereconkeys]

1.75 is the shift, 1.25 is the ISO left shift

Both shifts are R4 not R3 though.

[Poesjuh]

1.75 is the shift, 1.25 is the ISO left shift

Both shifts are R4 not R3 though.

O lol true, I'm stupid Well, R3 caps/control could work. But yeah not the correct legends.

[Acereconkeys]

1.75 is the shift, 1.25 is the ISO left shift

Both shifts are R4 not R3 though.

O lol true, I'm stupid Well, R3 caps/control could work. But yeah not the correct legends.

Yup i'm with ya that's why my whole agenda/objective is to just get people to include 1 1.25u r3 key. Fn, Tab, Enter, Ctrl whatever legend i don't give a hoot just any 1.25u r3 key Then I can use 1.75u ctrl and 1.25u whatever to atleast cover my 40%.

[Myoth]

What is the point of arguing if you're going to say "well, it's the choice of the maker !!!!!!" like cool bro, that means only what they think is necessary, which is pretty counter-productive if you're trying to appeal to a larger mass. Anyway ...

You didn't read my original post did you ? plates should always be fixed, as I said, and like I said I do not think 8 pads are the end of the world, my KMAC2 has very limited pcb layouts, and it's not better or worse than a run of the mill H87 or whatever the standard is. If you indeed think that you ABOSLUTELY need not these 8 pads, then reconsider split backspace and split rshift on a TKL, or if you want to take the thing even further, take a look at the XD60, 8pads when they are like 200 on it.... come on man

and I agree that it's a minority, but it's not small enough to be overlooked, the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby, I remember when I was looking for custom options and there was no ISO keycaps, and you god damn know how important keycaps are to a keyboard, and no you really don't understand what the lack of keycaps mean, you don't live for decades using a layout, getting into a hobby and seeing there are absolutely NO options for it, that's how using AZERTY in the hobby feels like, and I don't even use AZERTY. ISO is necessary, those 4 caps are totally necessary as they mean you can *at least* learn how to touch-type to still use your layout. And, optionally, open your keyset to 1/5th of the market

We must have both missed each others points.

My point is Iso is not special compared to other unpopular layouts like 40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (lol). Everyone wants the hobby to cater to their interests and make keysets that work for the boards they have/want.

You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference.

I'm trying to be empathatic and understand how frustrating it is that you don't have your layout of choice supported in base kits, but neither do I.

"You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference."

You couldn't have chosen a more stupid exemple, 40% is not a standard, it's not seen anywhere apart from this exact hobby, you can't compare 40% to ISO.

I have my layout of choice in base kits, I use ANSI, I said so in my first message. I could just not care about this situation, I'm into vintage ****, I have plenty of keysets to satisfy my needs, and they're fulfilled, I have nothing to win from this argument. I just think it's stupid to exclude ISO for 4 ****ing keys, 4.

If you want to compare to 40%, then I should say "well, you see, 40% is so small that nobody is using the same layout, one might prefer X over Y because of the space you're given, whereas with ISO, if you don't have these 4 keys, you can't do anything that look like it".



I'm surprised no one made an ANSISO. Add a 1.25u shift and a 1u in r4. Same number of keys as ISO, and the support of ANSI. (Sorry if it has been mentioned already)

[depletedvespene]

…
I'm surprised no one made an ANSISO. Add a 1.25u shift and a 1u in r4. Same number of keys as ISO, and the support of ANSI. (Sorry if it has been mentioned already)

A quibble here: what you describe is an ISANSI hybrid keyboard (ISO left Shift, horizontal Enter key). An ANSISO unit has a 2.25U left Shift and a vertical Enter, like the keycap set in this drop from (m)(ass)drop.

While we're at this, let's take a look at the BADLY done "ISO support" in that set.

1) It has an ISO Enter key, but no 1.25u Shift key... meaning that it's not actually ISO support but just ANSISO instead.

2) It has TWO of the keys required for UK ISO support... but not the rest. The #~ key goes to the left of the ISO Enter (okay so far), then we have '@ (to replace '")... and nothing else. No R4 or R3 \| key anywhere, and the rest of the replacement keys ( `¬ 2" 3£ ) is missing as well.

With such a poor effort, why even bother? It would have been cheaper to put just R3 \| in the set get rid of the #~ and '@ keycaps.

[tobiasvl]

My point is Iso is not special compared to other unpopular layouts like 40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (lol). Everyone wants the hobby to cater to their interests and make keysets that work for the boards they have/want.

You say "the lack of ISO is only going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby". But isn't it also true the lack of 40% keycap support also going to make less people get into the more extreme part of the hobby? There's no difference.

I'm trying to be empathatic and understand how frustrating it is that you don't have your layout of choice supported in base kits, but neither do I.

But ISO is special compared to the other layouts you listed, because hundreds of millions of people grow up using it before they even enter the hobby (let alone the "extreme parts" of it). For us, ISO is not a "layout of choice", it's all we know. I'm 32 and work in IT, and I had never, ever seen an ANSI keyboard IRL until I met a colleague who was into mechanical keyboards; he bought an ANSI keyboard because he gave up on ISO due to the lack of options.

40%, 1800, or 60% with arrows (roflmao) are layouts in the "more extreme parts of the hobby" that people choose to embrace. They are the extreme parts of the hobby; they do not exist outside the extreme. It is bad that there's also limited support for those layouts, but at least you know that going in.

The only thing that makes ISO a "layout of choice" for us, is that we can "choose" to give it up when we get into the "more extreme parts of the hobby". And those parts aren't especially extreme: If you want almost any keycap set you have to give up the legends (which isn't that bad); if you want a hotswap board (which is a good entry point for the hobby, not an "extreme part"), or can't shell out hundreds of dollars for more esoteric keycap sets (which makes keycap sets that aren't "extreme parts" of the hobby pretty extreme for ISO users), you might just have to give up physical ISO as well.

Now, it's not a big problem to give up ISO for ANSI. The difference is only 4 keycaps, after all, as has been mentioned several times in this thread. But I definitely believe it stops people from entering the hobby. If there are people out there who have grown up using 40% on stock, chiclet keyboard keyboards, they're probably dismayed by the offerings in GB keycap sets as well.

[e11i0t23]

I know im late replying however, to spread some light on the cost argument using a recent quote i collected from GMK of including iso support and in this case full iso-uk support. For 150MOQ of base it adds arround 4€/set reducing to 2€/set for 500MOQ. This is less than the cost of a coffee out.

To me refusing to add that and therefore excluding a growing group of people in the market for the reason of cost seems selfish as well as a bizarre choice considering this opens your set to a larger amount of clientele therefore allowing a set maker to benefit more or help to achieve the price breaks which is around 5€ less at iso-uk 250MOQ than even no iso so everyone still saves money.

Finally as a PCB designer i would like to touch on the design of them. Yes grated cheese pcbs are not pretty but most PCBs support multiple bottom row configurations. Adding iso additionaly to that is just 2 extra footprints. This doesn't harm aesthetics to me and is a no brainer to be added, even if plate support isnt in group buy as people can easily get a custom plate from a service like laserboost. The only exception is for hotswap, this is near impossible to fit iso and ansi on a single PCB therefore separate pcbs would be needed but that is up to a groupbuy runners discretion how that should be formatted.

[the pokemon kid]

I know im late replying however, to spread some light on the cost argument using a recent quote i collected from GMK of including iso support and in this case full iso-uk support. For 150MOQ of base it adds arround 4€/set reducing to 2€/set for 500MOQ.

To me refusing to add that and therefore excluding a growing group of people in the market for the reason of cost seems selfish as well as a bizarre choice considering this opens your set to a larger amount of clientele therefore allowing a set maker to benefit more or help to achieve the price breaks which is around 5€ less at iso-uk 250MOQ than even no iso so everyone still saves money.

Finally as a PCB designer i would like to touch on the design of them. Yes grated cheese pcbs are not pretty but most PCBs support multiple bottom row configurations. Adding iso additionaly to that is just 2 extra footprints. This doesn't harm aesthetics to me and is a no brainer to be added, even if plate support isnt in group buy as people can easily get a custom plate from a service like laserboost. The only exception is for hotswap, this is near impossible to fit iso and ansi on a single PCB therefore separate pcbs would be needed but that is up to a groupbuy runners discretion how that should be formatted.

The addition of having ISO UK in a base set for an extra 4 euros is much less than I thought it would cost, I was expecting something more on the lines of $20-30. I am suprised that GB runners are choosing to remove it for such a small amount extra!

I have said this before, I am running a plate GB from Laserboost myself. Along with eight other people we are getting ISO Plates cut. If UPAS didnt have ISO Support on his PCB I would of straight passed on the Satisfaction75. I think quite a few people in the UK/ EU communities have a similar sentiment when it comes to choosing what boards/ keysets to pickup.

[lewisflude]

I know im late replying however, to spread some light on the cost argument using a recent quote i collected from GMK of including iso support and in this case full iso-uk support. For 150MOQ of base it adds arround 4€/set reducing to 2€/set for 500MOQ.

To me refusing to add that and therefore excluding a growing group of people in the market for the reason of cost seems selfish as well as a bizarre choice considering this opens your set to a larger amount of clientele therefore allowing a set maker to benefit more or help to achieve the price breaks which is around 5€ less at iso-uk 250MOQ than even no iso so everyone still saves money.

Finally as a PCB designer i would like to touch on the design of them. Yes grated cheese pcbs are not pretty but most PCBs support multiple bottom row configurations. Adding iso additionaly to that is just 2 extra footprints. This doesn't harm aesthetics to me and is a no brainer to be added, even if plate support isnt in group buy as people can easily get a custom plate from a service like laserboost. The only exception is for hotswap, this is near impossible to fit iso and ansi on a single PCB therefore separate pcbs would be needed but that is up to a groupbuy runners discretion how that should be formatted.

These numbers are much lower than I'd assumed. If this is the case, then there really isn't an excuse.

I'd be interested to hear if other set designers quotes match up to this, so if anyone does have some more information on how ISO/UK-ISO/NorDeUk pricing tends to affect a GB then I'd be interested to hear.

[depletedvespene]

I know im late replying however, to spread some light on the cost argument using a recent quote i collected from GMK of including iso support and in this case full iso-uk support. For 150MOQ of base it adds arround 4€/set reducing to 2€/set for 500MOQ.

To me refusing to add that and therefore excluding a growing group of people in the market for the reason of cost seems selfish as well as a bizarre choice considering this opens your set to a larger amount of clientele therefore allowing a set maker to benefit more or help to achieve the price breaks which is around 5€ less at iso-uk 250MOQ than even no iso so everyone still saves money.

Finally as a PCB designer i would like to touch on the design of them. Yes grated cheese pcbs are not pretty but most PCBs support multiple bottom row configurations. Adding iso additionaly to that is just 2 extra footprints. This doesn't harm aesthetics to me and is a no brainer to be added, even if plate support isnt in group buy as people can easily get a custom plate from a service like laserboost. The only exception is for hotswap, this is near impossible to fit iso and ansi on a single PCB therefore separate pcbs would be needed but that is up to a groupbuy runners discretion how that should be formatted.

These numbers are much lower than I'd assumed. If this is the case, then there really isn't an excuse.

Indeed! I'd have thought that US ISO support (four keys) would be 4 euros, not the eight keys that UK ISO requires!

The only reason I find feasible at this point is that somewhen in the distant past, the price difference was (proportionally) much higher, and that "image" of "expensiveness" has not disappeared from the minds of some designers. That, or that they really prefer ANSI Enter and they're rationalizing their preference with an spurious argument (which, infuriatingly, isn't carried over to other variants, like stepped/non-stepped Caps Lock).

[the pokemon kid]

I know im late replying however, to spread some light on the cost argument using a recent quote i collected from GMK of including iso support and in this case full iso-uk support. For 150MOQ of base it adds arround 4€/set reducing to 2€/set for 500MOQ.

To me refusing to add that and therefore excluding a growing group of people in the market for the reason of cost seems selfish as well as a bizarre choice considering this opens your set to a larger amount of clientele therefore allowing a set maker to benefit more or help to achieve the price breaks which is around 5€ less at iso-uk 250MOQ than even no iso so everyone still saves money.

Finally as a PCB designer i would like to touch on the design of them. Yes grated cheese pcbs are not pretty but most PCBs support multiple bottom row configurations. Adding iso additionaly to that is just 2 extra footprints. This doesn't harm aesthetics to me and is a no brainer to be added, even if plate support isnt in group buy as people can easily get a custom plate from a service like laserboost. The only exception is for hotswap, this is near impossible to fit iso and ansi on a single PCB therefore separate pcbs would be needed but that is up to a groupbuy runners discretion how that should be formatted.

These numbers are much lower than I'd assumed. If this is the case, then there really isn't an excuse.

Indeed! I'd have thought that US ISO support (four keys) would be 4 euros, not the eight keys that UK ISO requires!

The only reason I find feasible at this point is that somewhen in the distant past, the price difference was (proportionally) much higher, and that "image" of "expensiveness" has not disappeared from the minds of some designers. That, or that they really prefer ANSI Enter and they're rationalizing their preference with an spurious argument (which, infuriatingly, isn't carried over to other variants, like stepped/non-stepped Caps Lock).

I think you may be right with this. Before I knew it was 4 Euros, I expected it to be $20-30 because of what GB runners and other members had been saying. I think that this idea it was expensive was thrown around without any hard evidence or old information to back it up!

[depletedvespene]

A ¿¿new?? development on the ISO support saga is one that I definitely did NOT expect, and which I find, to put it bluntly, dumb (YMMV).

Several newer sets (not naming any names here!) are supporting a version of ISO that is neither here nor there: ISO Enter, short left Shift, R4 \| (okay so far), but... instead of an R3 \| key (actually more important than the R4 one), they sport an R3 #~ key!

With this, US ISO support on ISO (and ANSISO) keyboards is incomplete and without any options other than forcing a keyboard to present TWO number signs and TWO tilde symbols to the user (and no backlash or pipe symbols!) or covering the spot with a modifier (even worse). UK ISO support is inexcusably incomplete as well, as the other keys it uses (`¬ 2" 3# '@) are absent.

It simply makes no sense whatsoever to make a keycap set that is halfway to either side of the pond — I'm biting my tongue real hard here to avoid calling this, with derision, "Atlantis ISO".

[rxc92]

Maybe more people should convert to ANSI? It's a hassle because so many European countries insist on having their own additions or modifications to a standard layout; which is totally justified for them, but not justified for the rest of the world which has to spend extra money on something that really only a handful of people will use. I for one would not want to spend an extra $5 on kits (as the extra keys need different legends etc), because it would be maybe 6-7 people paying $5 extra for a base kit for 1 person to get what they need versus 1 person paying an extra $20 for an ISO kit. 
Perhaps I'm biased, but it honestly objectively seems that ISO is a less ergonomic and functional layout. The UK layout being by far the worst offender, shortening the enter for no discernible reason.

[depletedvespene]

Maybe more people should convert to ANSI? It's a hassle because so many European countries insist on having their own additions or modifications to a standard layout; which is totally justified for them, but not justified for the rest of the world which has to spend extra money on something that really only a handful of people will use. I for one would not want to spend an extra $5 on kits (as the extra keys need different legends etc), because it would be maybe 6-7 people paying $5 extra for a base kit for 1 person to get what they need versus 1 person paying an extra $20 for an ISO kit. 
Perhaps I'm biased, but it honestly objectively seems that ISO is a less ergonomic and functional layout. The UK layout being by far the worst offender, shortening the enter for no discernible reason.

Maybe more people should convert to ISO? It's a hassle because so many American countries (¿) insist on having just the one standard layout that barely serves their own needs and does not provide for additions or modifications for other languages and typographical customs; which is totally justified for them actually pretty inexcusable, given that the US English needs themselves are not fully served by the US English layout (see below), and much less justified for the rest of the world, which would have to spend ANY money on a keyboard with inescapably incomplete support for inputting the letters and symbols that are required by dozens of languages and millions of people and will therefore need to use daily. I for one don't actually want to spend an extra $5 on kits to include modifier keys for various form factors I don't and I will never use (60%, ergodox, etc.), but accept it as a necessary compromise to serve the greater good of supporting as many popular form factors as feasible; treating ISO like a pest is short-sighted at best, because most of the growth of the mech enthusiast community in the near future will come from predominantly ISO countries, and those will probably outnumber ANSI newbies by 6-7 to one.

Perhaps I'm biased, but it honestly objectively seems that ANSI is a less ergonomic and functional layout. The US layout being by far the worst offender, lengthening horizontally and shortening vertically the Enter key for no discernible reason and making an alpha key be 1.5U and in a comparatively hard to reach place as collateral damage... to say nothing of the complete failure of using the AltGr layer to actually place symbols that are commonly used in US English, like ¢ (cent sign), — (em dash), – (en dash) , § and ¶ (section and paragraph signs), and ¼, ½ and ¾ (commonly used fractions). And that's not counting accents for foreign words that have been imported unaltered into English, like 'é' in "fiancée" or "née", 'ñ' in "piñata", 'ç' in "façade", or even 'ö' in (the admittedly high-nosing style of The New Yorker) "coöperation".

"Cooperation". Interesting word, with or without the diaeresis... is it not?

[rxc92]

i am angry because iso good ansi bad

That's a lot of straws in your hand.

[depletedvespene]

i am angry because iso good ansi bad

That's a lot of straws in your hand.

I just took your own straws and wrote them again from the opposite side. Don't dish it if you can't take it... and, better yet, present actual arguments, as your previous post DOES boil down to "ansi good iso bad".

[lewisflude]

It’s been said before, but we’re all paying for keys we won’t end up using. Whether that’s the bottom row that doesn’t fit our preference, modifiers we don’t like the look of, or an extra B key because we’re not one of the few TGR Alice users out there.

I’ll also say again that outside of the US, ISO is an extremely common standard for keyboards. Roughly half of the world, and 20% of the keyboard community. People coming into this hobby shouldn’t have to conform to some American standard just because it’s what the majority want.

Diversity and inclusion should be at the centre of this hobby and excluding a big portion of the world because of ignorance or lack of foresight is just bad design.

[HotRoderX]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

[Acereconkeys]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

Because, as has been stated a million times, there are not enough iso users in the custom mechanical keyboard community.

[HotRoderX]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

Because, as has been stated a million times, there are not enough iso users in the custom mechanical keyboard community.

Thats what I am saying sure it cost them arm and a leg but if it means so much to them. Then shelling out 400-500 dollars for that set they want won't be a issue. That's what this boils down to. They expect others GB runner or other people participating to pick up the difference.

[lewisflude]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

In what situation is basic ISO being run in its own kit and only making 3 sales?

The numbers I typically see for a full-blown NorDeUk kit are 8-12%, and those include way more than the €4 of keys you need for basic ISO.

I do see your logic though, and I think the put your money where your mouth is argument has a tonne of merit. I hope that as the community grows, so does the spending power of ISO users.

What I’m basically saying is that because of ISOs prevalence in the real world (where a lot of people may grow up never seeing an ANSI keyboard), the custom keyboard community should take extra care to make sure base kits reflect that standard.

Imagine if it was the other way around, and ANSI was being removed from base kits? If we just stamp out minority/edge cases we end up with a very homogenous and uninclusive hobby.

This idea of settling on ANSI as some sort of standard is terrible, because ISO exists, and half the world grew up using it.

[lewisflude]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

Because, as has been stated a million times, there are not enough iso users in the custom mechanical keyboard community.

Thats what I am saying sure it cost them arm and a leg but if it means so much to them. Then shelling out 400-500 dollars for that set they want won't be a issue. That's what this boils down to. They expect others GB runner or other people participating to pick up the difference.

We are all paying for keys we don’t want, whether it’s an ISO user with useless ANSI keys, modifiers we don’t intend to use, non-stepped caps lock or an extra B.

A base kit should cover all standard layouts, and ISO is one of two default options you’ll find in the wider world.

[HotRoderX]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

Because, as has been stated a million times, there are not enough iso users in the custom mechanical keyboard community.

Thats what I am saying sure it cost them arm and a leg but if it means so much to them. Then shelling out 400-500 dollars for that set they want won't be a issue. That's what this boils down to. They expect others GB runner or other people participating to pick up the difference.

We are all paying for keys we don’t want, whether it’s an ISO user with useless ANSI keys, modifiers we don’t intend to use, non-stepped caps lock or an extra B.

A base kit should cover all standard layouts, and ISO is one of two default options you’ll find in the wider world.

Since you want to argue this, I present another solution. Create your own design, then go and find a company GMK or who ever thats willing to produce it. Then take and find someone willing to host the buy. Then place it up for sale. I mean to be blunt and kinda a jerk, but yea. No one has any obligation to support the ISO users of the community. I mean there not enough of you to stop something from hitting MOQ. There is enough ANSI users. Sadly this is how the real world works. The majority get what they want. Sadly the people on the fringe there left out. Tis life.

[e11i0t23]

I am just going to throw this out there, ISO is so important to some people, why don't they team up and just offer to buy outstanding iso kits. They need 150 to meet MOQ and only 3 sales.. then these people are agreeing to pick up the other 147 kits. I mean sure its expensive but hey money where you mouth is otherwise don't complain. I don't complain about the total lack of topre sets why cause money where my mouth is.

Because, as has been stated a million times, there are not enough iso users in the custom mechanical keyboard community.

Thats what I am saying sure it cost them arm and a leg but if it means so much to them. Then shelling out 400-500 dollars for that set they want won't be a issue. That's what this boils down to. They expect others GB runner or other people participating to pick up the difference.

I wouldn't expect them to if the set was only ansi 104 with no support for any other layout e.g 40% however the fact the majority of sets already make you pick up the difference of including additional keys for boards like the tgr alice and multiple bottom rows meaning the majority of us are going to be paying for keys we won't use. Are you really that stingy you cant afford to pay the price of a Starbucks coffee extra. But have the opportunity to save the cost of 2 by opening upto more people making it more likely to hit price breaks.