Post by: r00dy on Sun, 26 July 2020, 16:56:10
Join our Discord: here (https://discord.gg/SEbTvcTgar)
Status Update (01/03/2022)
Alexotos built the Paragon on Stream (Jan 2). I've linked the sound test and stream links below:
Sound Test: here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8IRW6TfL9o)
Sound Test Clip from Vod: here (https://clips.twitch.tv/NimbleAltruisticThymeResidentSleeper-mffp2ZxLFJsq7xll)
Full Vod: here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1250840131)
Base kit: $480 which includes all of the following (please note that the weight and knob must be the same color for the base kit)
- Paragon case (black, deep navy, gunmetal, purple, e-white)
- Weight (gold or silver)
- Knob (gold or silver)
- Plate (pc or aluminum)
- PCB (solder or hotswap)
- Poron gaskets
- Foam
- Necessary hardware
Extras:
- Hotswap PCB: $45
- Solder PCB: $39
- PC plate: $29
- Aluminum plate: $39
- Brass Knob (Gold or Silver): $40
- Brass Weight (Gold or Silver): $110
Note: The price for Europe through CandyKeys is 480 Euros and the extras pricing will vary slightly. The pricing for Asia will be slightly higher as well (add 7% for GST)
Third Prototype
[attachimg=24]
[attachimg=25]
[attachimg=26]
[attachimg=27]
Second Prototype
[attachimg=21]
[attachimg=22]
[attachimg=23]
First Prototype
[attachimg=17] [attachimg=19]
[attachimg=18] [attachimg=20]
PCB Layouts
More
Hotswap PCB Layout:
[attachimg=11]
Soldering PCB Layout:
[attachimg=12]
[attachimg=11]
Soldering PCB Layout:
[attachimg=12]
Renders
More
Renders of the Paragon on GMK Hammerhead
[attachimg=15]
[attachimg=14]
Renders of the Paragon on GMK Inukuma courtesy of Influenced
[attachimg=16]
[attachimg=13]
Common Requests in the IC Regarding Layouts (FAQ):
More
Can you add a horizontally offset cluster?
At the end of the day, theres only so many suggestions we can take while retaining the identity of the board. Weve decided that symmetry and the even bezel fundamentally define this board and set it apart. While we understand that this might be a dealbreaker for some of you, we feel that adding a cluster would change the identity of the board and of course the number of SKUs for the top body of the board.
Can you add WKL?
Standard WKL layouts have blockers and as we just mentioned, weve decided against blockers; however, we have decided to support a layout that supports two mods on both sides to preserve the WKL functionality without the blockers (see new renders above). We felt like this was an amenable solution because it did not fundamentally alter the seamless aesthetic of the board.
Can you add an offset arrow cluster?
The mounting system is embedded within the bezel. To use an offset cluster, we would have to redesign the board from the ground up. Additionally, the offset arrow cluster board would be larger, so adding an entirely larger board as a SKU which would be both expensive to develop and sell due to the entirely new SKU. We also didnt like the idea of the spacing and symmetry being compromised but the feasibility of implementing an offset cluster was what really eliminated this option from contention.
Original IC for reference:
More
[attachimg=1]
Table of Contents
1. Introduction
2. Design, Specifications, and Renders
3. GroupBuy Details
4. FAQ
5. Additional Renders
6. Credits
1. Introduction:
The Paragon is a 75% keyboard featuring a unique gasket mounting system and rotary encoder. In designing a keyboard, we sought to incorporate elements from previous groupbuy designs including some elements we believed to be missing. We were inspired by the aesthetics of the 7V, Rama Koyu and U80-A (please see FAQ), the Satisfaction 75, and the mounting system of the Volcano 660 to create our first board. The Paragon weighs in at just over six pounds boasting a seven-degree angle while the name succinctly encapsulates our desire to design a board that we could consider perfect: the Paragon of keyboards.
2. Design:
We envisioned an elegant, 75% keyboard that bridged the gap between form and function. A succinct expression of our design language would most aptly be characterized by the phrase: the intersection of a straight line and a curve. We found sharp edges and corners to be aesthetically displeasing and avoided them via the implementation of a curved bezel. The uniform outer bezel adds weight to our design while allowing us to maintain a bottom-mounted system that remains invisible while the board is seated upon a table at a 7-degree typing angle. The seamless exterior in tandem with the wide, uniform bezel provide the foundation upon which the board was constructed.
[attachimg=2]
The plate layout was designed to minimize spaces while providing a semblance of symmetry to the board. We determined that a split arrow cluster would require spacing and offsets that conflicted with the aesthetic of the board. We moved the arrow cluster within the primary cluster such that the uniform spacing may preserve the symmetry present within the bezel. In determining which layouts to support, we determined that a single plate and PCB ought to support as many layouts as possible to reduce the number of SKUs. The Paragon supports split-backspace, split-spacebar, stepped caps lock, ISO, and ANSI all in a single plate and PCB scheme.
Link to Layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/712343c9458f14c300bab919bff6c8bc]here (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/712343c9458f14c300bab919bff6c8bc)
[attachimg=3]
The PCB was designed to complement the gasket mounted system. The flexibility of the PCB in tandem with the gaskets further supports a soft typing experience. The centered USB-C port preserves the symmetrical spacing maintained throughout the board. Our primary gripe with most boards was the lack of a rotary encoder hence we prioritized the implementation of one in the Paragon. The rotary encoder only supports rotational functionality due to our desire to maintain the longevity of the PCB. We felt that increased functionality of the rotary encoder including pressing and joystick-like movements would only compromise the longevity of the PCB while providing functionality that was achievable via mapping.
In the spirit of maintaining a uniform aesthetic, we determined that a bottom-mounted system would allow us to conceal the mounting system entirely. The lower portion of the case is held in place by eleven M3 screws while the weight is held in place by four M4 screws. The weight is embedded within the lower portion of the case such that it is once again concealed from the outside to provide a seamless appearance.
We sought to implement a gasket system that provided a soft typing experience while preserving the longevity of both the gaskets and the board. The force of a keystroke is distributed amongst twenty-four individual gaskets placed around the edges of the plate; while the separation of the gaskets allowed us to implement the mounting system more easily, it created a unique problem in the sense that the custom gaskets would no longer be easily replaceable. In prioritizing the longevity of the board after the lifespan of the initial gaskets, we determined that a gasket, 3D printed from flexible filament, would allow us to future-proof the board as the availability of 3D printers appears to be increasing. The flexible filament gaskets provide a structurally unique alternative to traditional rubber gaskets while allowing us to replace intricate gaskets in a quick and inexpensive manner. After the boards have been delivered, the gasket files will become publicly available such that anyone may produce new gaskets after the initial ones wear out.
[attachimg=4]
The weight and knob were designed to extend the elegance we envisioned within the Paragon. The weight is etched with a simple Paragon as depicted below while the knob features a rounded bezel similar to the edges of the case.
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=10]
3. Group Buy Details
We currently estimate the cost will range between the $400-700 range depending upon the manufacturers, vendors (if we use one), and interest level. We will mostly likely host the sale ourselves without a vendor. We personally dislike limited production runs and would like to make this an unlimited group buy for a month but the requisite demand would need to appear in the Interest Check form to justify an unlimited group buy with vendors. If the interest level from the IC falls short of our threshold for an open group buy, there will be a smaller limited run (~200 units) in a raffle style draw without a vendor (Note the price will be higher for the raffle than an open group buy).
**Update We're talking to vendors and manufacturer
IC Form: https://forms.gle/7KBCNHMop5kbuwaMA (https://forms.gle/7KBCNHMop5kbuwaMA)
Discord: https://discord.gg/RznZS4d (https://discord.gg/RznZS4d)
4. FAQ
Can you add support for other layouts?
No, we would like to produce as few SKUs as possible to keep the price down and we have supported a reasonable number of layouts already.
Will there be a hotswap PCB?
***Update We have decided to add ANSI hotswap
What colors are you considering?
We will be producing both an anodized matte black and e-white version. A possible third color is dependent on the results of the IC although we are leaning towards blue at the moment. Again, we would like to limit the SKUs.
Is a knob included?
Yes, a knob will be included in the same colors offered for the cases (you can mix and match case and knob colors though). We may also offer a brass knob but that has yet to be determined as well.
Will there be RGB lighting?
No, we believe that RGB lighting detracts from the elegance of the board.
Will there be a polycarbonate version?
No, again, we believe that polycarbonate detracts from the elegance of the board.
Is there QMK compatibility?
Yes.
Can you bring the price down?
Depends on if you fill out the IC form.
Is this board a copy of the Rama Koyu and U80a?
**UPDATE We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well so the board's group buy will run with the current design aesthetic.
4. Timeline/TODO
Order First Prototype: (In Progress: Talking to Manufacturers)
Update Design Based on Prototype and IC Form
Order Second Prototype
Finalize Design and Groupbuy Format
Order Third Prototype
Groupbuy
5. Additional Renders
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
6. Credits and Acknowledgements
We would like to thank BirgusLatro for his guidance throughout the entire design and review process along with his advice for manufacturing. This keyboard would not have been possible without him. We would also like to thank JJ48_24 for his contributions to the case along with jtallbean for his contributions to the PCB. We would like to thank ImperfectLink and CJT for the renders.
Table of Contents
1. Introduction
2. Design, Specifications, and Renders
3. GroupBuy Details
4. FAQ
5. Additional Renders
6. Credits
1. Introduction:
The Paragon is a 75% keyboard featuring a unique gasket mounting system and rotary encoder. In designing a keyboard, we sought to incorporate elements from previous groupbuy designs including some elements we believed to be missing. We were inspired by the aesthetics of the 7V, Rama Koyu and U80-A (please see FAQ), the Satisfaction 75, and the mounting system of the Volcano 660 to create our first board. The Paragon weighs in at just over six pounds boasting a seven-degree angle while the name succinctly encapsulates our desire to design a board that we could consider perfect: the Paragon of keyboards.
2. Design:
We envisioned an elegant, 75% keyboard that bridged the gap between form and function. A succinct expression of our design language would most aptly be characterized by the phrase: the intersection of a straight line and a curve. We found sharp edges and corners to be aesthetically displeasing and avoided them via the implementation of a curved bezel. The uniform outer bezel adds weight to our design while allowing us to maintain a bottom-mounted system that remains invisible while the board is seated upon a table at a 7-degree typing angle. The seamless exterior in tandem with the wide, uniform bezel provide the foundation upon which the board was constructed.
[attachimg=2]
The plate layout was designed to minimize spaces while providing a semblance of symmetry to the board. We determined that a split arrow cluster would require spacing and offsets that conflicted with the aesthetic of the board. We moved the arrow cluster within the primary cluster such that the uniform spacing may preserve the symmetry present within the bezel. In determining which layouts to support, we determined that a single plate and PCB ought to support as many layouts as possible to reduce the number of SKUs. The Paragon supports split-backspace, split-spacebar, stepped caps lock, ISO, and ANSI all in a single plate and PCB scheme.
Link to Layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/712343c9458f14c300bab919bff6c8bc]here (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/712343c9458f14c300bab919bff6c8bc)
[attachimg=3]
The PCB was designed to complement the gasket mounted system. The flexibility of the PCB in tandem with the gaskets further supports a soft typing experience. The centered USB-C port preserves the symmetrical spacing maintained throughout the board. Our primary gripe with most boards was the lack of a rotary encoder hence we prioritized the implementation of one in the Paragon. The rotary encoder only supports rotational functionality due to our desire to maintain the longevity of the PCB. We felt that increased functionality of the rotary encoder including pressing and joystick-like movements would only compromise the longevity of the PCB while providing functionality that was achievable via mapping.
In the spirit of maintaining a uniform aesthetic, we determined that a bottom-mounted system would allow us to conceal the mounting system entirely. The lower portion of the case is held in place by eleven M3 screws while the weight is held in place by four M4 screws. The weight is embedded within the lower portion of the case such that it is once again concealed from the outside to provide a seamless appearance.
We sought to implement a gasket system that provided a soft typing experience while preserving the longevity of both the gaskets and the board. The force of a keystroke is distributed amongst twenty-four individual gaskets placed around the edges of the plate; while the separation of the gaskets allowed us to implement the mounting system more easily, it created a unique problem in the sense that the custom gaskets would no longer be easily replaceable. In prioritizing the longevity of the board after the lifespan of the initial gaskets, we determined that a gasket, 3D printed from flexible filament, would allow us to future-proof the board as the availability of 3D printers appears to be increasing. The flexible filament gaskets provide a structurally unique alternative to traditional rubber gaskets while allowing us to replace intricate gaskets in a quick and inexpensive manner. After the boards have been delivered, the gasket files will become publicly available such that anyone may produce new gaskets after the initial ones wear out.
[attachimg=4]
The weight and knob were designed to extend the elegance we envisioned within the Paragon. The weight is etched with a simple Paragon as depicted below while the knob features a rounded bezel similar to the edges of the case.
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=10]
3. Group Buy Details
We currently estimate the cost will range between the $400-700 range depending upon the manufacturers, vendors (if we use one), and interest level. We will mostly likely host the sale ourselves without a vendor. We personally dislike limited production runs and would like to make this an unlimited group buy for a month but the requisite demand would need to appear in the Interest Check form to justify an unlimited group buy with vendors. If the interest level from the IC falls short of our threshold for an open group buy, there will be a smaller limited run (~200 units) in a raffle style draw without a vendor (Note the price will be higher for the raffle than an open group buy).
**Update We're talking to vendors and manufacturer
IC Form: https://forms.gle/7KBCNHMop5kbuwaMA (https://forms.gle/7KBCNHMop5kbuwaMA)
Discord: https://discord.gg/RznZS4d (https://discord.gg/RznZS4d)
4. FAQ
Can you add support for other layouts?
No, we would like to produce as few SKUs as possible to keep the price down and we have supported a reasonable number of layouts already.
Will there be a hotswap PCB?
***Update We have decided to add ANSI hotswap
What colors are you considering?
We will be producing both an anodized matte black and e-white version. A possible third color is dependent on the results of the IC although we are leaning towards blue at the moment. Again, we would like to limit the SKUs.
Is a knob included?
Yes, a knob will be included in the same colors offered for the cases (you can mix and match case and knob colors though). We may also offer a brass knob but that has yet to be determined as well.
Will there be RGB lighting?
No, we believe that RGB lighting detracts from the elegance of the board.
Will there be a polycarbonate version?
No, again, we believe that polycarbonate detracts from the elegance of the board.
Is there QMK compatibility?
Yes.
Can you bring the price down?
Depends on if you fill out the IC form.
Is this board a copy of the Rama Koyu and U80a?
**UPDATE We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well so the board's group buy will run with the current design aesthetic.
4. Timeline/TODO
Order First Prototype: (In Progress: Talking to Manufacturers)
Update Design Based on Prototype and IC Form
Order Second Prototype
Finalize Design and Groupbuy Format
Order Third Prototype
Groupbuy
5. Additional Renders
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
6. Credits and Acknowledgements
We would like to thank BirgusLatro for his guidance throughout the entire design and review process along with his advice for manufacturing. This keyboard would not have been possible without him. We would also like to thank JJ48_24 for his contributions to the case along with jtallbean for his contributions to the PCB. We would like to thank ImperfectLink and CJT for the renders.
Banner:
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[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107743.0][img width=213 height=120]https://i.imgur.com/CBMXMuy.png[/img][/url]
Post by: Kokaloo on Sun, 26 July 2020, 16:59:57
Post by: S3LQ on Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:09:07
Post by: TheMilkmen on Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:12:24
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implementedAlbeit that I agree with you on the post count for ICs, this is way better than any of the half-assed ICs that we have been seeing pop up here in the past few months.
Either way, I do think that there is promise for this board, even with this being the first post that the account has. Hopefully the proto shows some good information.
Post by: war40ck on Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:13:27
Post by: Kinesiologist on Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:28:43
please consider adding ESD protection on the PCB. Thanks
Post by: Jyobah on Sun, 26 July 2020, 17:45:21
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implemented
If someone doesnt like the IC post just move on. Ive seen lately a lot of people mocking others just because they havent been on said platform for years and or makes posts.
Post by: supern00b on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:09:03
Post by: Tribeq on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:11:18
Post by: bisoromi on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:12:21
Post by: IOVERCALLHISTIOCYTES on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:13:27
Lets argue about that blue color.
Post by: PikaJoyce on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:21:42
Where was this designed??Where in the valley?
Post by: macomac on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:23:07
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:23:20
is it possible for a minimum post count for IC threads be implemented
In regards to a minimum post count, we felt that a well written and expressed IC would lend credence to this post. We've tried to be as transparent about the design as possible and our reddit presence is verifiable as we've been around much longer and posted much more on the reddit keyboard forums.
I love the design. I would also love to see ESD protection added to the PCB.
Thanks for the suggestion we'll look into it!
Where was this designed??
In regards to the origins of the design, we're both from Silicon Valley California as stated in the IC. The Designed In Silicon Valley text is engraved under the Paragon logo in the weight. We feel that the technology and design industry in Silicon Valley have influenced us greatly and we wanted to represent that on the board.
Also the discord embedded URL didn't work but if anyone wants to copy and paste it into their browser, the URL should work. Thanks for all the feedback and responses.
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 26 July 2020, 18:24:54
Where was this designed??
San Jose to be specific.
Post by: DillonHightower on Sun, 26 July 2020, 19:24:08
Post by: Bitmxp on Sun, 26 July 2020, 19:37:15
Post by: jooobe on Sun, 26 July 2020, 20:43:40
Sent from my SM-G988U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: Coby on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:01:12
Post by: UberB on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:21:21
Post by: zoo on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:27:14
Post by: maximize on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:30:14
Post by: ThePanduuh on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:32:32
Post by: Rayndalf on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:52:46
Not sure why you're getting torn up (yeah you made the account to post the IC, but at least you bothered to make an account now instead of throwing up a groupbuy notice once it goes live).
A physical prototype would go a long way in convincing people, but you really should consider talking to some venders.
Post by: hijris32 on Sun, 26 July 2020, 23:10:12
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 26 July 2020, 23:46:56
new member, unlimited group buy, no physical prototype, on the fence about using vendors, I can't tell if this is a poorly structured cash grab siphoning hype from a certain 75% or if OP truly believes this is a good idea. either way, I agree with the aforementioned requirement of post count prior to posting IC's. I feel you may have taken notes from the wrong interest checks without thinking of how poorly they went. I really hope you don't see this comment as a hate comment and you genuinely consider the feedback here. good luck OP.The sentiment regarding a new account is warranted considering the board is expensive and a risky proposition considering the fact that we stated we may go without vendors. Additionally, the denial of a render service predicated upon the RAMA sentiment (as mentioned in the FAQ) concerned us since we had already invested time and money into the project. In order to recoup our expenditures and make the project worthwhile, we felt that putting out the IC at the same time as we ordered the first prototype was the safest play for us both monetarily and reputation-wise; we didn't want to create a keyboard that vendors would not carry and people would not buy. That being said, we already have the means to create an online storefront and are working with members in the keyboard community to make this groupbuy possibe. Our primary gripe with going through a vendor was the issue of additional cost for low order quantities and the inability to fulfill a low MOQ; however, it has since become clear that a vendor may be necessary as the response has also been overwhelming. We are currently reaching out to vendors as per multiple suggestions to increase the trust of the keyboard community in this endeavor (in progress as of tonight); while this is not a guarantee that we will use a vendor, we hope that the community sees it as a step to towards a legitimate groupbuy. As for the issues with a new geekhack account, we believe that the reddit account provides authenticity (if you hop over to mechmarket, you can see an account with more karma and history); there is nothing we can do about having a new geekhack account other than wait and comment on random posts and as mentioned previously, the timing was critical to make sure we weren't creating a keyboard that ran into a dead end. In short, we're looking into contacting vendors tonight as per the constructive criticism.
As to questions regarding aesthetic choices and decisions:
WKL layouts, blockers, and arrow key offsets all remove the possibility of the uniform bezel. We invested a great amount of time in designing a layout that was both functional and aesthetically pleasing and it's almost impossible to maintain the symmetrical and uniform spacing without the layout we've implemented. We really prefer the current spacing as it pertains to both the bezel and the key clusters; all design choices were made very consciously to maintain a particular aesthetic (large bezels with uniform spacing). There seems to be a high request for hotswap pcbs. Based on prior groupbuys, we thought that soldering was often found preferable but are willing to change our stance and add a hotswap pcb if the demand is present after the IC (please let us know if you want hotswap in the IC form). We are, however, open to all ideas so feel free to fill out the IC with suggestions.
The bottom weight looks incongruous with the exploded view render.
The weight isn't on the same plane as the feet so it looks offset in the exploded view render. We only commissioned a few views for the IC because we weren't sure if there would be enough demand to go through with the keyboard. We've since looked into another view of the bottom so people can get an idea of the feet placement along with the weight. We hope that it can be put up in the next few days but a lower resolution and tilted render is available on our discord.
Post by: mahpsirhc on Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:00:49
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:01:08
[attachimg=1]
Whats the height of the boards front?The board is 37mm in the back and the front is 18mm
I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.We made the decision to have a taller knob because it is more easily accessible when reaching over the keycaps (Right now it's roughly 1.5x the SA func row height). Feel free to leave feedback in the IC, the knob is definitely open to change if we get enough feedback.
Post by: ndimare on Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:11:54
Post by: sagarsiddhpura on Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:33:15
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:51:57
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: ecbob on Mon, 27 July 2020, 00:56:53
Post by: beekey on Mon, 27 July 2020, 03:47:20
Could safe some money and simplify production.
Post by: violeaf on Mon, 27 July 2020, 05:42:57
Any chance that the design might change to have the arrow cluster separated?
+1, this would make it a perfect board for me!
[Edit] Saw r00dy's comment about this, fair enough this follows the designer's aesthetic preference, but ultimately the market demand plays a big role in informing it as well :)
Post by: MelindaBirkenstock on Mon, 27 July 2020, 06:26:03
Post by: SlipperyPeteED on Mon, 27 July 2020, 06:28:32
Post by: dom on Mon, 27 July 2020, 07:44:30
Where was this designed??
Australia at RamaWorks ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.
----- r00dy -----
What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.
Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.
Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:32:39
Where was this designed??
Australia at RamaWorks ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.
----- r00dy -----
What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.
Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.
Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.
We spent a considerable amount of space in the FAQ going over the angle of design language so we're not going to rehash the issue. While we agree our design is inspired by RAMA, we highlighted the internal differences along with external ones in the FAQ. It is also the reason why the IC is so long and "novel-esque". I'm sorry that you feel this way but we were transparent about the inspiration; this board represents an amalgamation of the most popular keyboards in recent times and we sought to fuse them together along with our own implementation to design the Paragon.
Post by: dom on Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:45:14
were transparent about the inspiration
The fact you are transparent is a good thing in one way, but as a designer, I would never take someone else's work and put my accent in that obvious way (like at the image below).
Anyway, I believe you are a good person, do whatever you feel is right; it's your life, your designs.
Sorry for the interruption.
Post by: MelindaBirkenstock on Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:49:38
Where was this designed??
Australia at RamaWorks ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.
----- r00dy -----
What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.
Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.
Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.
My good sir, if you think that similarity = stealing, then you need to revolt against every single other board that ever gets IC'd on geekhack. Just because the board is similar to a rama board doesn't mean rama can't release his own board.
Post by: dom on Mon, 27 July 2020, 08:54:36
My good sir, if you think that similarity = stealing, then you need to revolt against every single other board that ever gets IC'd on geekhack. Just because the board is similar to a rama board doesn't mean rama can't release his own board.
Yes, I feel that.
As a designer, I have a healthy respect for anyone who is creating anything. Inspiration is one thing, but knowing the limits is another.
Everyone is different, I guess.
However, for me, this is too much (because I look and see RAMA).
Post by: maximize on Mon, 27 July 2020, 09:11:15
Here's a tentative render of the bottom from fusion; we'll get a better look with renders tomorrow.
(Attachment Link)I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.We made the decision to have a taller knob because it is more easily accessible when reaching over the keycaps (Right now it's roughly 1.5x the SA func row height). Feel free to leave feedback in the IC, the knob is definitely open to change if we get enough feedback.
But... this is the IC. And that was my feedback. Make the knob shorter, it looks awkward.
I will also echo the comments about not running an unlimited group buy. It will help you avoid getting overwhelmed by the project, be easier to handle and get your feet wet as a new GB runner, and in the end would be better for building a good reputation in the community.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 27 July 2020, 09:44:30
I would make the rotary encoder knob shorter, closer to the height of the keycaps. I think it sticks out too much at the moment.We made the decision to have a taller knob because it is more easily accessible when reaching over the keycaps (Right now it's roughly 1.5x the SA func row height). Feel free to leave feedback in the IC, the knob is definitely open to change if we get enough feedback.
But... this is the IC. And that was my feedback. Make the knob shorter, it looks awkward.
I will also echo the comments about not running an unlimited group buy. It will help you avoid getting overwhelmed by the project, be easier to handle and get your feet wet as a new GB runner, and in the end would be better for building a good reputation in the community.
[/quote]
My mistake, I was referring to the IC form (we're look at feedback from geekhack, reddit, and the IC form) but we've heard some sentiment about reworking the knob and it's definitely under consideration; we're going to wait until the IC results are in (~1 week) before committing to changes but the knob has definitely been mentioned before and we will look into it. As to the second issue regarding the groupbuy format, we're reaching out to reputable vendors at the moment to get quotes on pricing along with timelines; we acknowledge that we lack experience on the groupbuy logistical side and input regarding how we should go about the groupbuy is valuable. Limited definitely saves us logistical headaches, albeit it would definitely dissappoint a lot of members in the community. We're definitely trying to build rapport with the community along with a reputation so the advice is regarding the groupbuy logistics is greatly appreciated!
Post by: geewiz on Mon, 27 July 2020, 10:54:27
albeit it would definitely dissappoint a lot of members in the community
More disappointing than not getting to pay for a keyboard because of availability is not getting the keyboard for which you have paid because the GB runners underestimated the effort for logistics and QA.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 27 July 2020, 10:57:00
albeit it would definitely dissappoint a lot of members in the community
More disappointing than not getting to pay for a keyboard because of availability is not getting the keyboard for which you have paid because the GB runners underestimated the effort for logistics and QA.
Agreed. Like we mentioned in previous comments, we've reached out to vendors now and are trying to alleviate the concerns regarding the logistics.
Post by: SenseiJia on Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:22:35
Post by: willdta123 on Mon, 27 July 2020, 13:57:01
Post by: mattv on Mon, 27 July 2020, 15:15:57
Post by: JvMil on Mon, 27 July 2020, 15:37:21
Post by: perry4761 on Mon, 27 July 2020, 21:33:53
Also, a blocker between the ctrl and arrow key cluster would make this a prettier and easier to use board (for me). Even better if the navkeys also end up separated, but that's not as important to me.
The single most important thing though is definitely that you guys partner with a reputable vendor.
There is potential here, but it needs more time on the drawing board. This is your first board, and there is a big risk that you will get the copycat label assigned to you by the community if you go through with this.
Don't let these comments tear you down, and don't abandon the project! I'm just giving you guys my honest feedback and I hope my criticism is constructive and helpful, I wouldn't bother commenting if I didn't think this could become something nice.
Edit: spelling
Post by: beekey on Tue, 28 July 2020, 01:34:18
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 28 July 2020, 12:05:22
Getting masive Koyu vibes. This needs a split between the arrow keys and modifiers
We're exploring the option of a split between the arrows and modifiers. However, like we mentioned before, the split will throw off the uniform bezel regardless of how it is implemented. An offset cluster would require an entire redesign of the board's internals as well since the mounting system is concealed within the bezel. The current layout is relatively unique to the Paragon and allows it to maintain an even/symmetrical appearance and any changes would immediately alter the aesthetic.
Very nice looking case. I think a wider bottom weight would like nicer and better proportioned.
Thanks, we've received a lot of feedback regarding the weight (especially the width). We're reconsidering the design of the weight at the moment as it pertains to increasing the size.
Looks really interesting, filled in the IC form. One thing I would also like to say is that the knob looks a bit too tall, but aside from that it looks really clean!
Thanks, we've also received a lot of feedback regarding the knob and we're looking into reducing the height. However, we would like the knob to still be as tall or taller than the keycaps but there's still some height that can be trimmed down.
A bit too similar to the Koyu imo. I understand that the guts are different, but the outside looks like a 75% koyu with a knob. That's past inspiration at this point. There needs to be more to claim it was "inspired by" and not "copied". Something as simple as a chamfered edge would make a world of difference. New designers stand on the shoulder on giants, so it is fine and understandable to want to use those who came before us as inspiration, but if you're not adding on to that design, you're not standing on their shoulders, you're leaning on them. Look at the Alice for instance: Many boards have copied the layout, but some of them are outright clones, while others have provided very nice additions and made amazing cases that really set them apart from the original design.
Also, a blocker between the ctrl and arrow key cluster would make this a prettier and easier to use board (for me). Even better if the navkeys also end up separated, but that's not as important to me.
The single most important thing though is definitely that you guys partner with a reputable vendor.
There is potential here, but it needs more time on the drawing board. This is your first board, and there is a big risk that you will get the copycat label assigned to you by the community if you go through with this.
Don't let these comments tear you down, and don't abandon the project! I'm just giving you guys my honest feedback and I hope my criticism is constructive and helpful, I wouldn't bother commenting if I didn't think this could become something nice.
Edit: spelling
Thanks for the feedback. We've explained the differences in the FAQ so we're not going to rehash the issue entirely but we did highlight the surface level differences between the Paragon and the Koyu. Since the internals are completely different along with the surface level differences including the form factor, knob, and layout spacing, we feel that this board differentiates itself enough at the moment; while adding a chamfer is an interesting idea, it would instantly detract from the clean curves and bezel of the Paragon. We've addressed the issue with key spacing above and the current layout of the Paragon is relatively unique; adding blockers and clusters/offsets would only make it more similar to existing boards (something which we're being paradoxically critiqued for here). As we mentioned before, we're looking into partnering with vendors and we're currently waiting for responses.
How about a curved cutout on the back, the reveal the base? If base has a different colour it would be a nice accent. Knob and base could be colour matched, would like nice IMO.
This is interesting and we'll look into it. There will be at least a third color option based predicated upon the IC and maybe we can mix and match the bottom and top if we do go down this route.
Post by: toastMoney on Tue, 28 July 2020, 20:47:28
Post by: dydy124 on Tue, 28 July 2020, 21:07:40
I do believe though the knob should be shorter to be a more even part of the design and follow the same concept idea of "evenness".
The idea being everything is in harmony, nothing is out of place, the knob standing so tall over keycaps to promote easy acces, is a design philosophy flaw/aberrance imo.
Post by: mustardgreens on Tue, 28 July 2020, 22:45:46
Post by: r00dy on Wed, 29 July 2020, 09:04:51
Where was this designed??
Australia at RamaWorks ;)
But seriously, the inspiration is powerful, but at least the author is honest about this.
----- r00dy -----
What if RAMA wants to release his 75% layout? It will look exactly like this project (maybe except the hideous rotary encoder). He spends years shaping his design language to make sure his boards are recognizable, just like Norbauer, keycult, and any well-established brand.
Stealing is wrong, in any form. We did see that in recent times where intellectual property was disturbed.
This is BAD and wrong.
Good luck with your "design" journey.
Peace.
My good sir, if you think that similarity = stealing, then you need to revolt against every single other board that ever gets IC'd on geekhack. Just because the board is similar to a rama board doesn't mean rama can't release his own board.
A bit too similar to the Koyu imo. I understand that the guts are different, but the outside looks like a 75% koyu with a knob. That's past inspiration at this point. There needs to be more to claim it was "inspired by" and not "copied". Something as simple as a chamfered edge would make a world of difference. New designers stand on the shoulder on giants, so it is fine and understandable to want to use those who came before us as inspiration, but if you're not adding on to that design, you're not standing on their shoulders, you're leaning on them. Look at the Alice for instance: Many boards have copied the layout, but some of them are outright clones, while others have provided very nice additions and made amazing cases that really set them apart from the original design.
Also, a blocker between the ctrl and arrow key cluster would make this a prettier and easier to use board (for me). Even better if the navkeys also end up separated, but that's not as important to me.
The single most important thing though is definitely that you guys partner with a reputable vendor.
There is potential here, but it needs more time on the drawing board. This is your first board, and there is a big risk that you will get the copycat label assigned to you by the community if you go through with this.
Don't let these comments tear you down, and don't abandon the project! I'm just giving you guys my honest feedback and I hope my criticism is constructive and helpful, I wouldn't bother commenting if I didn't think this could become something nice.
Edit: spelling
We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well for our group buy so the board will run with the current design aesthetic.
Board looks great, only alteration I'd make would be to shorten the knob. Would it be possible to have different knob heights as options?
First 75% in a long time I am interested in, I think it is well put together
As mentioned before, we're looking into adjusting the knob height as it was one of the most popular suggestions on the IC form. Selling multiple SKUs of a knob height might increase the price although it would be interesting to sell knobs with different height (e.g. one for a GMK height or one for an SA height etc.). It's definitely food for thought but we'll probably look into that after we get a working prototype. We are looking into making a special version of the knob with a more premium metal for some added flair but again, that can only happen after we get a working prototype.
First 75% in a long time I am interested in, I think it is well put together
Thanks, we're hoping to make this board a reality!
Post by: The.Ryan.Gamer on Fri, 31 July 2020, 08:01:35
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 31 July 2020, 15:41:52
Interested. However, i couldn't find a target price? And when is the target date for GB?
We mentioned $400-700 in the IC post but we've revamped some of the internals to cut costs and we're talking to manufacturers at the moment (hopefully we can drop the price to the $400-500 range). We're hoping to get this to groupbuy in early 2021 (Q1).
Post by: Paragon on Sun, 02 August 2020, 16:39:22
Once you have some quality vendors and a set price I look forward to trying my luck at it in 2021!
Post by: Bobatype on Fri, 07 August 2020, 03:40:42
However there are two criticisms that others have mentioned that I'll echo:
I like knobs a lot (like way too much), but your current render is rather unappealing, and it literally sticks out like a sore thumb. It's kind of confronting. I might suggest looking at other boards iterations of knobs for a sense of how to get one that still harmoniously resides on the board.
The weight on the back is also rather basic too, but that's personal preference on aesthetics.
Post by: The.Ryan.Gamer on Fri, 07 August 2020, 05:05:29
Interested. However, i couldn't find a target price? And when is the target date for GB?
We mentioned $400-700 in the IC post but we've revamped some of the internals to cut costs and we're talking to manufacturers at the moment (hopefully we can drop the price to the $400-500 range). We're hoping to get this to groupbuy in early 2021 (Q1).
Noted. We'll wait ;D
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 09 August 2020, 21:30:01
I love the look: 75% form factor + rotary dial feature inclusion is right up my alleyway.
However there are two criticisms that others have mentioned that I'll echo:
I like knobs a lot (like way too much), but your current render is rather unappealing, and it literally sticks out like a sore thumb. It's kind of confronting. I might suggest looking at other boards iterations of knobs for a sense of how to get one that still harmoniously resides on the board.
The weight on the back is also rather basic too, but that's personal preference on aesthetics.
Thanks, we've already shortened the knob in the current design and we've changed the weight dimensions. We belive that the knob shouldn't be shorter than the tallest keycap profile because the knob should be accessible and align well with the profile. Currently, the new knob design aligns with the SA function row height. The weight design is still up in the air at the moment but we're hoping to keep it simple.
Post by: pickoloh on Mon, 10 August 2020, 11:35:21
Post by: werc on Thu, 13 August 2020, 06:44:05
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 14 August 2020, 12:42:35
Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?
Thanks for the interest, we're still talking to vendors and manufacturers at the moment but we're aiming for Q1 of 2021. We hadn't considered Via since we were offering qmk compatibility and it hasn't really been requested much. We've finalized the layout and although the request for blockers is reasonable, we feel as though the uniform bezel aesthetic will be compromised by the introduction of blockers; we also wanted to reduce the number of SKUs to keep the price lower.
Post by: davisthegreat on Fri, 14 August 2020, 13:00:45
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 15 August 2020, 18:46:33
like this alot, i love rama and I didnt think of it at all. There is only so many ways to make a clean lined board and this is a good way. i filled in IC form hoping for a variation of purple, and Fr4 plate availability
Thanks, the three colors as of now are white, black, and deep navy but the Fr4 plate is still in the running based on our IC numbers.
Post by: paperassgasket on Sun, 16 August 2020, 07:01:00
✋ raising my hand for via support. I like the software.Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?
Thanks for the interest, we're still talking to vendors and manufacturers at the moment but we're aiming for Q1 of 2021. We hadn't considered Via since we were offering qmk compatibility and it hasn't really been requested much. We've finalized the layout and although the request for blockers is reasonable, we feel as though the uniform bezel aesthetic will be compromised by the introduction of blockers; we also wanted to reduce the number of SKUs to keep the price lower.
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 18 August 2020, 13:46:31
✋ raising my hand for via support. I like the software.Definitely interested. Great design. Although I do prefer a blocker next to the arrows.
Any estimate on timing? Also, are you considering Via?
Thanks for the interest, we're still talking to vendors and manufacturers at the moment but we're aiming for Q1 of 2021. We hadn't considered Via since we were offering qmk compatibility and it hasn't really been requested much. We've finalized the layout and although the request for blockers is reasonable, we feel as though the uniform bezel aesthetic will be compromised by the introduction of blockers; we also wanted to reduce the number of SKUs to keep the price lower.
We'll have to look into via since there haven't been a huge number of requests for it. In the meantime feel free to check out our new renders and updates!
Post by: Techlet on Tue, 18 August 2020, 14:28:30
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 18 August 2020, 14:44:10
I think people haven't explicitly asked for VIA because it's basically assumed new keyboards running QMK will also be made VIA compatible out of the box.
Makes sense, we've decided to add it.
Post by: heartbreak on Tue, 18 August 2020, 15:45:29
Post by: dom on Mon, 24 August 2020, 00:28:13
We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well for our group buy so the board will run with the current design aesthetic.
Of course, "he had no issues" - you've put him in an uncomfortable position.
Anyway...
Peace!
Post by: i luv chuletas on Mon, 24 August 2020, 07:18:02
Anyways, great looking board man. Had responded originally over at Reddit. I was on the 'separate the arrows' bandwagon but now I'm not so sure. VIA support on this is almost a must at this point though haha
Best of luck with the run, I'll probably be joining this one!
Post by: udller on Mon, 24 August 2020, 08:06:48
Post by: Bobatype on Mon, 24 August 2020, 19:08:53
+1 sticking to vision of no blockers and no clusters
+1 for offering ANSI hotswap option for those who don't like soldering/desoldering
+1 new renders with shorter knob. If you do any future renders, I'd suggest one with higher profile keycaps like SA/KAT too.
I also raise my hand for VIA support. I'm too lazy and not interested in fiddling with QMK
Navy being third option is kinda boring, but super predictable, and you'd be amiss to not include it as the 3rd option after black and white
Is brass plate a compulsory option? I get that it's perceived as premium, but it's not my preferred plate type generally.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 24 August 2020, 20:15:28
Drama in GH is getting kinda out of hands these days lol
Anyways, great looking board man. Had responded originally over at Reddit. I was on the 'separate the arrows' bandwagon but now I'm not so sure. VIA support on this is almost a must at this point though haha
Best of luck with the run, I'll probably be joining this one!
Thanks, there was a lot of deliberation regarding blockers, offset clusters, and wkl layouts but we felt that the uniform bezel defined the aesthetic of the board and sacrificing it for other layouts would detract from the identity of the board. Hopefully, other people on the blocker/offset/wkl bandwagon feel the same way. We mentioned before that we decided to add VIA support; just to clarify, we're implementing it at the moment into the PCB so it should be guaranteed.
looks nice, not a big fan of how the weight is currently. i think it would look cooler if it was just engraved into the base ?
We expanded the weight horizontally to make it larger and we're currently working on a redesign of the logo/engraving. We originally considered a weightless design but we personally love brass weights. The weight does contribute to the "weight" in the sense that the new weight estimate of the board is 7.8 lbs. I'm also pretty certain that an overwhelming majority of people would prefer a weight option than a weightless one.
+1 for reaching out to Rama, very classy
+1 sticking to vision of no blockers and no clusters
+1 for offering ANSI hotswap option for those who don't like soldering/desoldering
+1 new renders with shorter knob. If you do any future renders, I'd suggest one with higher profile keycaps like SA/KAT too.
I also raise my hand for VIA support. I'm too lazy and not interested in fiddling with QMK
Navy being third option is kinda boring, but super predictable, and you'd be amiss to not include it as the 3rd option after black and white
Is brass plate a compulsory option? I get that it's perceived as premium, but it's not my preferred plate type generally.
Thanks for all the support. Hopefully the VIA concerns were alleviated in this comment since we're implementing it at the moment. Deep navy had an overwhelming amount of support and it's a relatively safe color in terms of preserving the elegant aesthetic. We are considering a limited run of a different color of our choice but that's something we'll explore later (if the limited color runs at a higher price, it can offset the price of the other boards so the regular colors can be cheaper). We also haven't determined if there will be a non-brass plate yet and if so, what material. We just asked for people's preference in the IC to get a general idea. The plate materials had some really close results so there will be a tiebreaker if and when we decide to add the second plate and we're not yet sure if brass is compulsory since that's more of a logistical issue. Our focus during the past few weeks has been talking to vendors and manufacturers while obtaining prototypes and we should hopefully have an update on that in the next few days. Queries about plate, knob, and color options are something we want to look into after we get a working prototype. In the meantime however, we have some renders of the Paragon in black with GMK Space Cadet II courtesy of Oblotzky (currently in IC at https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=108243.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=108243.0))
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: captainwado on Tue, 25 August 2020, 12:49:23
Post by: Oni74 on Tue, 25 August 2020, 14:35:26
+1 for deep navy
+1 for ansi hotswap addition
+1 for sticking with original design
I do want to express my opinions for changes:
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB
Post by: Bobatype on Tue, 25 August 2020, 16:23:49
I do want to express my opinions for changes:^good points.
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB
I'm interested in how much cheaper would having no weight cost?
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 30 August 2020, 15:37:15
This is beautiful. I'll be buying for sure.
Thanks for the support!
very interested and most likely in for the GB
+1 for deep navy
+1 for ansi hotswap addition
+1 for sticking with original design
I do want to express my opinions for changes:
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB
Thanks again for the support and feedback. The seven degree angle seems to be the most popular and will probably be fixed. From our conversations with manufacturers, a CF plate appears to be easeir to manufacture than polycarb but we'll have to determine the material choice and groupbuy options down the road; there's a close tie for #1 and #2 for the plate material question and we will probably put out a second IC closer to the groupbuy stage to figure out if brass should be a primary option or not. The current design without a weight would be a bit awkward from the bottom side since it would look like a chunk was missing from the bottom; this opens up an interesting possibilty of moving the weight to the interior and offering a foam SKU alternative to the weight. We're looking into how an internal weight or foam option affects the sound. Although we currently don't have ESD protection, the data line protection is handled in the pcb by the TPD4E05U06DQAR chip, and the power lines are protected by a ptc fuse + tvs diode. To quote our PCB designer, there shouldn't be an issue on that end unless people are "dropping it into a bathtub" or something.
I do want to express my opinions for changes:^good points.
- I find Angle of 7 degrees a bit high - 6 feels perfect, but I understand this is a matter of preference and going with most popular value feels right
- Plate choice would be ideal without having to purchase extra - I personally prefer CF plate
- Option to purchase/skip brass weight would be nice for those of us who don't care for brass and/or want to lower cost
- Please add ESD to PCB and consider sufficient physical separation between USB-C port and case to reduce likelihood of ESD reaching the PCB
I'm interested in how much cheaper would having no weight cost?
We're looking into at the moment but a weightless option would increase the cost of the weight to others if people opted out of the weight. We're looking into an internal weight but the decision for weight SKUs is something we'll look into later on.
Post by: r00dy on Thu, 10 September 2020, 09:35:24
new member, unlimited group buy, no physical prototype, on the fence about using vendors, I can't tell if this is a poorly structured cash grab siphoning hype from a certain 75% or if OP truly believes this is a good idea. either way, I agree with the aforementioned requirement of post count prior to posting IC's. I feel you may have taken notes from the wrong interest checks without thinking of how poorly they went. I really hope you don't see this comment as a hate comment and you genuinely consider the feedback here. good luck OP.
We've signed with Keebwerk to prototype and manufacture the Paragon. Hopefully this alleviates some of the concerns regarding the groupbuy. Weve decided to refrain from committing to a vendor at the moment. We want to re-evaluate our options closer to the groupbuy by reaching out vendors again but we definitely will sign a vendor and a few proxies before the groupbuy.
Post by: drfilco on Thu, 10 September 2020, 11:55:26
Post by: tkgamer62 on Thu, 10 September 2020, 12:06:16
Post by: SleepyJacky on Thu, 10 September 2020, 13:23:48
Post by: 3yatt on Thu, 10 September 2020, 16:54:01
Post by: isot0nic on Thu, 10 September 2020, 21:25:43
Post by: NOLA on Fri, 11 September 2020, 17:21:34
Post by: Araset on Sat, 12 September 2020, 03:04:00
Post by: Grog on Sat, 12 September 2020, 12:06:16
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 12 September 2020, 15:52:24
Sorry if this has been answered. It's a little hairy sorting through the thread. Has it been decided if this will be a limited or unlimited run?
Super in! Would be nice to have a EU proxy and unlimited 24h like GB given the popularity. Beautiful design, Navy versione ftw
Keebwerk has made us aware of an optimal production quantity in terms of both pricing and turnaround time (~3 months). We havent decided the GB format but we personally dislike highly limited runs (e.g 50-200 board FCFS). The hope is to run something similar to the Think6.5v2 run which allows anyone to buy it within a limited time frame (might be just for a few hours or a day) but again this all depends on the level of interest. If the GB is limited, the quantity should be high but the availability will depend on the interest as well (IC numbers are currently a little over 1050 at the moment).
Keebwerk is located in Germany and with the ISO support, EU vendor/proxy should be a guarantee. We've seen a lot of questions that we've answered before on geekhack or in our discord pop up in the IC forms lately (stuff like hotswap, knob height, seperated arrow cluster/blocker/wkl); the latest updates are in our discord and we're pretty active there so feel free to drop in and ask more questions. Thanks again for all the support and interest!
Post by: Grog on Sat, 12 September 2020, 16:06:52
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 12 September 2020, 16:14:31
Is the discord channel private by any chance? When I accept the invite, discord only shows me the number of members but not any text channels.
Huh, that's strange. We were having discord issues before but I thought that they were resolved. If you could you PM me on discord, I can try to get to the bottom of the issue!
Post by: Dr-lipschitz on Sat, 12 September 2020, 20:35:12
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 14 September 2020, 17:32:55
any chance of alps support?
Unfortunately not
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 15 September 2020, 15:42:22
I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.
We've decided to settle on 485 boards in total for the groupbuy for reasons mentioned in the updated IC post.
Post by: pcire on Tue, 15 September 2020, 17:28:22
I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.
We've decided to settle on 485 boards in total for the groupbuy for reasons mentioned in the updated IC post.
I really hope to get a spot!
Post by: r00dy on Thu, 17 September 2020, 09:23:32
I would love for this to be an unlimited group buy. I would for sure be in as missing out on a number of raffles the last 6 months has been super disheartening.
We've decided to settle on 485 boards in total for the groupbuy for reasons mentioned in the updated IC post.
I really hope to get a spot!
We've done some rudimentary math in our discord but at the moment, most people who want a board should be able to get one based on the IC results and discord size.We're also looking at ordering the first round of prototypes at the moment.
Post by: xantiema on Fri, 18 September 2020, 15:09:15
I like the design choices and hope you stick to them - I honestly don't think you can pull off a separated arrow cluster in a manner that maintains finesse :thumb:
Post by: jackferguson on Fri, 18 September 2020, 17:54:43
Post by: Cloods on Sat, 19 September 2020, 03:11:52
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 19 September 2020, 12:58:17
Out of curiosity, how troublesome would it be to offer an ISO (+hot-swap?) variant of the PCB? I have a feeling at least a third of the orders would be from Europeans.
I like the design choices and hope you stick to them - I honestly don't think you can pull off a separated arrow cluster in a manner that maintains finesse :thumb:
In designing the board initially, we wanted to support a variety of layouts with the soldering pcb. We looked around at other 75% alternatives and saw that ISO wasn't supported so we made it a point to include ISO support in the pcb. Offering ISO hotswap would make the hotswap and soldering pcb's identical in supported layouts and we felt that it may leave the soldering pcb neglected in the group buy stage. We also prioritized ANSI hotswap because we're NA based and wanted to take advantage of supporting the layouts that we felt that we'd use the most.
Thanks for the support regarding the arrow cluster. A lot of people requested offset arrow clusters at the beginning but we felt that it would compromise the bezel and uniform spacing in the board.
Waiting for this kind of keyboard for a long time.
Thanks, so have we!
some really funky colour options could make this stand out a lot
The IC results have supported our initial theory that black and ewhite are popular colors. We let the IC forms dictate the third color (Deep Navy) and we feel that all three of these colors are elegant in a formal manner. There will be 35 LE boards (2 SKUs) at the designers' discretion so colors are still on the table. However, we feel that the board stands out on its own regardless of the color. In the meantime, however, the IC has been updated with some fresh renders by Pseudoalpaca with KAT Space Dust (currently in IC). There are teal and silver Paragons to give you an idea of how some other colors would look...
Post by: 3yatt on Sat, 19 September 2020, 13:09:09
Post by: gandalf on Sun, 20 September 2020, 11:44:31
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 21 September 2020, 06:00:24
Cool design man, definitely interested since I probably won't be getting my hands on satisfaction 75 lol, I'm curious though what's the rotary encoder for? Is it something pre-programmed? Or can I change it to lets say volume control or something.
Thanks for the interest, the rotary encoder can do anything you want it to do like volume, screen brightness, etc. It's programmable via QMK so you should be able to toggle the functionality too if you want.
My god that teal is so nice
Teal isn't an offered color at the moment but we just received fresh ewhite renders on comfy pbt...
Post by: Ragsters on Sat, 26 September 2020, 13:37:29
Post by: Grog on Sat, 26 September 2020, 14:22:35
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 27 September 2020, 15:50:35
Wait...So when does the group buy start? I want one of these bad boys.
We're looking at Q1 2021. Thanks for the interest!
Post by: Grog on Wed, 30 September 2020, 10:41:16
Post by: Klyback on Sun, 04 October 2020, 18:28:49
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 06 October 2020, 14:11:17
Interested!!
Thanks, we're talking with keebwerks and the manufacturer this week to place the order for the first prototype. We've also updated the IC post with new renders.
Post by: 7h3of7 on Mon, 26 October 2020, 20:52:11
Post by: Grog on Tue, 10 November 2020, 13:38:31
Post by: r00dy on Thu, 03 December 2020, 16:40:17
Post by: Techdude594 on Thu, 03 December 2020, 20:07:21
Post by: Chief_Sloth on Thu, 03 December 2020, 20:19:04
We reached out to RAMA Works regarding the concerns of the community; they had no issues with our board's design and wished us well for our group buy so the board will run with the current design aesthetic.
Of course, "he had no issues" - you've put him in an uncomfortable position.
Anyway...
Peace!
its a geometric shape, gtfo, no patents on that lul waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
Post by: Paragon on Sat, 05 December 2020, 14:18:59
its a geometric shape, gtfo, no patents on that lul waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
Apple's winning lawsuit against Samsung for rounded corners and setting precedent begs to differ
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 05 December 2020, 15:39:14
Prototype HYPE! :D
Thanks, we've had a lot of people wondering what the redesigned internals, weight and bottom look like. We've now attached a preliminary render of the internals to the main post along with a render of the weight. The major changes include the way the gaskets are held in place as the inside has been revamped along with the daughterboard cutout. The bottom side render highlights the weight redesign with the SF skyline along with how the screw holes have changed. You can also see the change in the USB port hole size and we'll try to add more renders in the coming weeks.
Post by: dom on Sat, 05 December 2020, 16:13:35
its a geometric shape, gtfo, no patents on that lul waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
Yes, the path of a LAZY DESIGNER is much easier.
With language like that - your place is on Reddit.
Good luck to you as well.
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 05 December 2020, 18:09:51
its a geometric shape, gtfo, no patents on that lul waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
Yes, the path of a LAZY DESIGNER is much easier.
With language like that - your place is on Reddit.
Good luck to you as well.
We took the advice, feedback, and criticism on geekhack and reddit from our first IC very seriously. We capped the groupbuy quantity, found a manufacturer, and have decided to go through a vendor as well (all due to advice from the first IC). We also took criticism for the design of the internals and subsequently redesigned them to make them more machineable. We also reached out to Rama early on to clarify any issues. Insinuating that our design is lazy is frankly rather insulting given the time, effort, and resources that we have expended into this endeavor. We've taken criticism in stride and hopefully shown that we're willing to make adjustments based upon feedback from people in the hobby.
Post by: clackeys on Sun, 06 December 2020, 22:49:38
Post by: hover0423 on Sun, 06 December 2020, 22:58:01
Post by: Ram on Mon, 07 December 2020, 00:11:18
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 08 December 2020, 15:44:15
Really neat concept for a board
The iceberg render is so clean~~~
Thanks! Credit to Nathan for the Iceberg Renders!
if only this was a 65, looks great!
thanks! not sure how that would work... offset numrow with knob?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Wed, 09 December 2020, 10:43:34
its a geometric shape, gtfo, no patents on that lul waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
Yes, the path of a LAZY DESIGNER is much easier.
With language like that - your place is on Reddit.
Good luck to you as well.
We took the advice, feedback, and criticism on geekhack and reddit from our first IC very seriously. We capped the groupbuy quantity, found a manufacturer, and have decided to go through a vendor as well (all due to advice from the first IC). We also took criticism for the design of the internals and subsequently redesigned them to make them more machineable. We also reached out to Rama early on to clarify any issues. Insinuating that our design is lazy is frankly rather insulting given the time, effort, and resources that we have expended into this endeavor. We've taken criticism in stride and hopefully shown that we're willing to make adjustments based upon feedback from people in the hobby.
Seems like this thread keeps getting thrown off-topic every so often. While the initial discussion was worth having, at this point it's just rehashing the past for the sake of stirring up drama. No need to keep doing that, and any future off-topic posts will be removed.
OP, I've quoted you, but I am of course responding to those you quoted above.
Post by: iknowreal on Tue, 05 January 2021, 06:36:46
Post by: TjarleN on Tue, 05 January 2021, 23:20:07
So yes the price seems to be 460$ without tax or shipping.
Post by: 0xtanja on Wed, 06 January 2021, 07:07:26
I want this... I NEED this
Post by: iknowreal on Sun, 10 January 2021, 20:50:18
Post by: i luv chuletas on Sun, 10 January 2021, 21:25:30
This is the third running board that has made me feel that way.
I don't know if it's the skyline on the weight or just how well the clustered arrows fit with the perfect spacing on the top right corner between f-row, knob and bezels; but, god damn have you got me with this one dude.
Props on a beautifully designed board, I'll be definitely be trying my best to join :p
Post by: Grog on Sun, 10 January 2021, 22:18:46
Been following this for some time now. Is 460 the price now or this the old one?
$460 is the current price.
Post by: Grog on Sun, 10 January 2021, 22:27:43
This is the best 75% out that has features as well as value. It's so hard trying to build a keyboard part by part when it takes months even almost a year for a single part. If the group buy is starting in Q1 I can only presume that it won't be in hands till q3. The whole group buy thing is still very knew. My understanding is it's a super quick on the draw thing and once it's sold out it may never come back for 5-6years or on the aftermarket where it will be taxed 100-$200 more in price depending on rarity. Initially thought that if there is 400 units for sale and you git the 400 that they would then instantly start the distribution process regardless of anything but there does seem to be a process.
The aim for this is to have the groupbuy sometime around February-March and then shipped out around June or July. So much quicker than you might typically see on some boards.
These are sent to be manufactured after the groupbuy ends, which is pretty typical for most keyboard groupbuys, rather than being an in-stock item.
Hope this helps.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 11 January 2021, 14:21:14
Been following this for some time now. Is 460 the price now or this the old one?
Sorry for the confusion on the post, I forgot to edit the original pricing estimate out. Yes the base price of the board not including tax or shipping will be $460 USD.
This is the best 75% out that has features as well as value. It's so hard trying to build a keyboard part by part when it takes months even almost a year for a single part. If the group buy is starting in Q1 I can only presume that it won't be in hands till q3. The whole group buy thing is still very knew. My understanding is it's a super quick on the draw thing and once it's sold out it may never come back for 5-6years or on the aftermarket where it will be taxed 100-$200 more in price depending on rarity. Initially thought that if there is 400 units for sale and you git the 400 that they would then instantly start the distribution process regardless of anything but there does seem to be a process.
As Grog mentioned above, this is a groupbuy so there will be a delay for manufacturing, qc, and shipment (projected 3 months at the moment). We're hoping that the aftermarket tax isn't too much considering the quantity but we're not opposed to rerunning the design if it becomes super popular later on. Really appreciate the support!
Submitted!
I want this... I NEED this
Since joining the hobby, almost nothing has made me go 'I need this and cannot miss it' with the exception of the J0-1 remake (which I was lucky enough to join) and the Cajal45 (not so lucky)
This is the third running board that has made me feel that way.
I don't know if it's the skyline on the weight or just how well the clustered arrows fit with the perfect spacing on the top right corner between f-row, knob and bezels; but, god damn have you got me with this one dude.
Props on a beautifully designed board, I'll be definitely be trying my best to join :p
Thanks, glad to have you on board. As a side update and thread bump, we're adding 25 more units to EU, CA, and Asia (75 units each) to bump the total quantity for 575 worldwide. We also heard back from the factory and it appears that the prototype has been machined and we're just waiting on the annodization now.
Post by: Muiju on Mon, 11 January 2021, 21:00:46
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 16 January 2021, 15:20:59
im in!
glad to have you on board. We've got some progress pics to update people while the prototype is being anodized.
Artisan Knob Prototypes progress pics from KeyLabs:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
The colors from left to right are gunmetal, nickel, copper, and brass and the plan is to infill the top of the knob.
Some plate materials that we're exploring in the prototype:
[attachimg=3]
Post by: iknowreal on Mon, 18 January 2021, 10:39:26
im in!
glad to have you on board. We've got some progress pics to update people while the prototype is being anodized.
Artisan Knob Prototypes progress pics from KeyLabs:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
The colors from left to right are gunmetal, nickel, copper, and brass and the plan is to infill the top of the knob.
Some plate materials that we're exploring in the prototype:
(Attachment Link)
This is pretty exciting are we mixing and matching with our boards or will this be on a separate kit?
Post by: i luv chuletas on Mon, 18 January 2021, 11:05:16
Any chance we can have a non in-filled option as well? I'm far keener on the clean aesthetics of the polished brass, or copper, on a board like this.
Post by: MadBinton on Mon, 18 January 2021, 14:20:46
I'm fearing 3mm brass will be fairly stiff, but probably luxurious sounding, but I personally would love either of those two materials.
Good to see you are exploring that, really hope it makes the cut in the GB. I do feel like some other offering just blindly included plate materials at times... (no proto with each etc)
Post by: Diggidy on Tue, 19 January 2021, 15:10:54
Post by: rondg on Tue, 19 January 2021, 15:44:05
im in!
glad to have you on board. We've got some progress pics to update people while the prototype is being anodized.
Artisan Knob Prototypes progress pics from KeyLabs:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
The colors from left to right are gunmetal, nickel, copper, and brass and the plan is to infill the top of the knob.
Some plate materials that we're exploring in the prototype:
(Attachment Link)
Can we buy just the knobs?
Post by: PusaCat666 on Wed, 20 January 2021, 04:33:55
Post by: r00dy on Wed, 20 January 2021, 15:58:07
im in!
glad to have you on board. We've got some progress pics to update people while the prototype is being anodized.
Artisan Knob Prototypes progress pics from KeyLabs:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
The colors from left to right are gunmetal, nickel, copper, and brass and the plan is to infill the top of the knob.
Some plate materials that we're exploring in the prototype:
(Attachment Link)
This is pretty exciting are we mixing and matching with our boards or will this be on a separate kit?
By mixing and matching I'm assuming you're referring to the knobs? The artisan knobs are independent of the board (you'll get one with the base kit at $460) and then have the option to pick up the artisan knob from KeyLabs (similar to how the sat75 rama collab knobs were sold).
im in!
glad to have you on board. We've got some progress pics to update people while the prototype is being anodized.
Artisan Knob Prototypes progress pics from KeyLabs:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
The colors from left to right are gunmetal, nickel, copper, and brass and the plan is to infill the top of the knob.
Some plate materials that we're exploring in the prototype:
(Attachment Link)
Can we buy just the knobs?
You should be able to buy the artisan knobs independent of the board but the knob is 1mm smaller than the knobs on most other boards like the Sat75. You might have a larger gap between the board and knob with some and the plate might show through although I'm not exactly sure to what extent since we haven't tried it.
The knobs look great!
Any chance we can have a non in-filled option as well? I'm far keener on the clean aesthetics of the polished brass, or copper, on a board like this.
Yeah the base option will be a non-artisan knob without the infill. We're still ironing out the details but you can definitely expect at least one knob without an infill but in the exact same shape (minus the indent on the top for the infill).
In for this! Hoping to get my first and only custom keeb.
glad to have you on board, if you haven't already, join our discord for the latest updates and leaks!
I've never designed a board before, but I see it mentioned frequently on GH/MM/Discord about avoiding side mountain tabs. Can you comment on your decision to include it?
Keebwerk ran some plate analysis and determined that it was ideal to use the 3mm plate with the gasket implementation as shown right now. Our gasket implementation is not as focused on plate flex as we have a 3 mm plate which already reduces plate flex substantially. We thought about it and decided that the side gaskets can be optional (you don't have to insert them if you don't want to) but the option exists.
Oohh, a thicker sheet of Polycarb or Carbon might just be right for this!
I'm fearing 3mm brass will be fairly stiff, but probably luxurious sounding, but I personally would love either of those two materials.
Good to see you are exploring that, really hope it makes the cut in the GB. I do feel like some other offering just blindly included plate materials at times... (no proto with each etc)
We just got the plates yesterday so here's a nicer pic of the 3mm pc, cf, and pom plates that we ordered. We probably won't offer another plate material in the gb because the IC and responses are all over the place in terms of preference which makes pricing hard for us to determine but we will open source the plate files and are looking into running a plate gb after the board runs.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: UGunaLOSE on Thu, 21 January 2021, 11:21:36
While seemingly inspired by other boards, def looks unique imo. And kudos on taking community feedback in stride.
Will be watching this :)
Post by: Aspherical90 on Thu, 21 January 2021, 19:23:54
Post by: PusaCat666 on Fri, 22 January 2021, 00:22:08
In for this! Hoping to get my first and only custom keeb.
glad to have you on board, if you haven't already, join our discord for the latest updates and leaks!
I just got in! Cant wait for the groupbuy already!!!
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 22 January 2021, 16:30:01
Well be perfect if this board also includes per key RGB option since it is VIA compatible, for the extra "Pop" comparing to other 75% KB currently in the market/GB.
This is from the original IC (albeit quite burried): "We believe that RGB lighting detracts from the elegance of the board." I heavily dislike rgb and its associated aesthetic so it won't be offered on the Paragon.
In for this! Hoping to get my first and only custom keeb.
glad to have you on board, if you haven't already, join our discord for the latest updates and leaks!
I just got in! Cant wait for the groupbuy already!!!
Well done on this!
While seemingly inspired by other boards, def looks unique imo. And kudos on taking community feedback in stride.
Will be watching this :)
Thanks!
Post by: i luv chuletas on Mon, 25 January 2021, 12:06:17
Any way we can convince you otherwise to offer at least the CF as an option during GB???
Other plate materials (with FR4 being an exception) are rather easy to procure with the file plate, but CF is another matter entirely.
CF, gaskets, and thicc ass cases are a combination for the heavens, please offer it up! ;D
Post by: KidsForCthulhu on Tue, 26 January 2021, 01:39:41
any chance for more sizes?
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 26 January 2021, 18:10:56
Thats freaking sick cant wait till this is done and ready for that pre order!
any chance for more sizes?
More sizes as in different form factors or as in different layouts? Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to by sizes in this context but glad to have you on board!
Ah damn, I got excited when I saw the CF plate being shown off.
Any way we can convince you otherwise to offer at least the CF as an option during GB???
Other plate materials (with FR4 being an exception) are rather easy to procure with the file plate, but CF is another matter entirely.
CF, gaskets, and thicc ass cases are a combination for the heavens, please offer it up! ;D
This is an interesting dilemma we had because the first IC was all over the place for plate material. What we do know is most people want a brass plate but the rest of the plate distribution results were pretty equally spread across pom, fr4, pc, and cf. The issue for us is guaranteeing a plate pricing for the different plates and then having a few of them not meeting MOQ because of the board quantity cap itself. As a result, we're definitely going to open source the plate files at the very least and we're considering hosting a plate gb after the board runs in some of the more popular materials if there's enough interest. Worst case I can refer you to the factory who made the cf plate and you can get the one-off made. We're still waiting on the proto anodization at the moment but we'll try to get some pics of the unfinished Paragon in the next few days. In the meantime though, we have some renders on GMK Shanshui on a black Paragon courtesy of NathanAlphaMan:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: FoxFire007 on Tue, 26 January 2021, 23:52:56
Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 30 January 2021, 13:55:03
Are those last photos in the main post FE version? If so, how to score one when released?
Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
There's no FE/LE version anymore, just 575 boards total distributed across different regions. The renders are on a black paragon with a black knob (not sure if we'll offer this during the gb but we are looking into it).
Post by: iknowreal on Tue, 02 February 2021, 21:20:39
Post by: fastertypes69 on Fri, 05 February 2021, 16:11:13
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 07 February 2021, 18:01:46
I look at the comments everyday for this board. I feel like this page is more up-to-date than reddit or the discord. I legit have money saved to pull the trigger on this board it's crazy because this my first custom board. I read things about people going crazy over keyboards I was like that's just silly. Now after witnessing how fast a board can disappear I have to check email alerts daily just to make sure I don't miss anything.
Glad to have you excited. I personally feel like our discord is more up to date but as long as you're there, you should get all the information and alerts you need! We'll definitely post updates on geekhack as well.
We're still waiting on a proto update but we do have some pics of the artisan collab knobs with Keylabs (the rest are in our discord).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: iknowreal on Sun, 07 February 2021, 19:24:33
Post by: Chippy on Sun, 07 February 2021, 19:37:47
Post by: iknowreal on Thu, 11 February 2021, 23:08:55
Post by: Bubbles on Fri, 12 February 2021, 02:33:17
This design gives me a smile on the face. As a beginner in this keyboard domain I hope this will be my first :thumb: :thumb:
But I guess I am to late... :( :(
Post by: sagarsiddhpura on Fri, 12 February 2021, 04:32:06
Post by: iknowreal on Sun, 14 February 2021, 12:59:15
Post by: Andmania on Fri, 12 March 2021, 10:09:06
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 12 March 2021, 16:05:02
will we get e-mail notifications on the release from the interest check survey ?
I'm not sure if we'll send an email out but we will definitely update/bump on geekhack while providing announcements in our discord server along with our vendor's servers as well.
INTERESTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And will buy when available.
This design gives me a smile on the face. As a beginner in this keyboard domain I hope this will be my first :thumb: :thumb:
But I guess I am to late... :( :(
Is now too late to jump in? Really my dream board.
Nope not late at all. There was a miscommunication and the factory didn't send the proto to anodization before CNY/LNY. This set us back by a few weeks but we anticipate the proto to be shipped by end of week next week. We're currently waiting on the knob friction fit to be confirmed with the encoder. The PCBs arrived in Germany last weekend.
I suspect this keyboard is more likely to be released closer to Q2. Q1 seems like a unrealistic delivery date.
Given the update above, this revised estimate is correct. I would anticipate a Q2 drop as long as the prototyping proceeds smoothly. Apologies for the delays along the way.
Can you put the artisan pics in original post on page 1
Will do. Here's another picture of the artisan knobs we received from keylabs:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: xelinquish on Fri, 12 March 2021, 19:31:23
Post by: sybase on Sun, 14 March 2021, 12:36:28
Post by: Kristof on Sun, 14 March 2021, 16:29:36
I'm in from EU surely!
Post by: santela on Sun, 14 March 2021, 22:27:05
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 15 March 2021, 08:09:18
It looks like the hotswap pcb supports blocker-less WKL 7U bottom row, but the solder PCB doesn't? Is there a reason for this and can you add this layout option to the solder PCB?
The reasoning behind this is more related to the timeline in which we developed the PCBs. We didn't have a hotswap pcb in our original IC (only the soldering one with the exact same layout it currently has). After people requested a hotswap pcb and blockers/wkl layouts, we reconsidered a hotswap pcb and decided to add the blocker-less wkl instead of adding blockers to the board. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anyone really request the 7U bottom row in the solder variant so it probably won't happen given that the pcb prototypes have already been produced.
Quick question, does the hotswap pcb support all these layouts (7u and 6.25u spacebar, split backspace and stepped caps)? I'm asking because I have never seen hotswap pcbs support so many layouts and I don't know if I'm misunderstanding anything.
That is correct. I believe the ikki aurora provided similar compatibility with a split spacebar in lieu of the 7U spacebar. We wanted to provide layout versatility in the hotswap pcb.
been eyeing on this for a while now. can't wait!
Been looking to buy a TKL style keyboard. This seems to fit my needs perfectly!
I'm in from EU surely!
Thanks! The board is a 75% (not a TKL) but glad to have your support. I should have a major update in two days or so.
Post by: sybase on Mon, 15 March 2021, 12:43:02
The reasoning behind this is more related to the timeline in which we developed the PCBs. We didn't have a hotswap pcb in our original IC (only the soldering one with the exact same layout it currently has). After people requested a hotswap pcb and blockers/wkl layouts, we reconsidered a hotswap pcb and decided to add the blocker-less wkl instead of adding blockers to the board. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anyone really request the 7U bottom row in the solder variant so it probably won't happen given that the pcb prototypes have already been produced.
Ok thats fair given GB date is close. The multi-layout hotswap is a very nice feature.
Post by: santela on Mon, 15 March 2021, 20:43:17
It looks like the hotswap pcb supports blocker-less WKL 7U bottom row, but the solder PCB doesn't? Is there a reason for this and can you add this layout option to the solder PCB?
The reasoning behind this is more related to the timeline in which we developed the PCBs. We didn't have a hotswap pcb in our original IC (only the soldering one with the exact same layout it currently has). After people requested a hotswap pcb and blockers/wkl layouts, we reconsidered a hotswap pcb and decided to add the blocker-less wkl instead of adding blockers to the board. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anyone really request the 7U bottom row in the solder variant so it probably won't happen given that the pcb prototypes have already been produced.Quick question, does the hotswap pcb support all these layouts (7u and 6.25u spacebar, split backspace and stepped caps)? I'm asking because I have never seen hotswap pcbs support so many layouts and I don't know if I'm misunderstanding anything.
That is correct. I believe the ikki aurora provided similar compatibility with a split spacebar in lieu of the 7U spacebar. We wanted to provide layout versatility in the hotswap pcb.been eyeing on this for a while now. can't wait!Been looking to buy a TKL style keyboard. This seems to fit my needs perfectly!
I'm in from EU surely!
Thanks! The board is a 75% (not a TKL) but glad to have your support. I should have a major update in two days or so.
That's awesome, thanks!
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 23 March 2021, 22:16:42
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
Post by: WHAT!? on Wed, 24 March 2021, 07:41:27
Which, to me is pretty cool, but my god man. That is a lot of material.
Post by: plakog on Fri, 26 March 2021, 00:44:42
Post by: BullRage on Fri, 26 March 2021, 02:29:01
Post by: Xury46 on Wed, 31 March 2021, 04:58:22
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 02 April 2021, 07:32:58
Bloody hell. That wall thickness though. You could park a car on this thing. LOL
Which, to me is pretty cool, but my god man. That is a lot of material.
Hi everyone, I'm new in the forum! Wish I knew about it earlier to catch CyberVoyager and Space65. But, hopefully I'll catch the designs now. I'd be interested in Paragon!
Count me in on that!
This really is a pretty keyboard. I love the knobs and the engraved weight. I won't be able to afford this but I wish you the best of luck with the project. :)
Thanks for all the support! The factory has finished producing the prototype and is shipping it to Germany. It should hopefully arrive late next week and spend roughly a week with Keebwerk before being shipped to us in California.
We prototyped an ewhite top case and deep navy bottom case to get multiple color samples in the same prototype (the final production units won't be two toned). There should be a gunmetal prototype knob as well as we were exploring color matching the knob to the case (this also provides us with gunmetal color samples). Here are some more pictures that the factory sent us:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: BullRage on Fri, 02 April 2021, 09:07:22
Bloody hell. That wall thickness though. You could park a car on this thing. LOL
Which, to me is pretty cool, but my god man. That is a lot of material.Hi everyone, I'm new in the forum! Wish I knew about it earlier to catch CyberVoyager and Space65. But, hopefully I'll catch the designs now. I'd be interested in Paragon!Count me in on that!This really is a pretty keyboard. I love the knobs and the engraved weight. I won't be able to afford this but I wish you the best of luck with the project. :)
Thanks for all the support! The factory has finished producing the prototype and is shipping it to Germany. It should hopefully arrive late next week and spend roughly a week with Keebwerk before being shipped to us in California.
We prototyped an ewhite top case and deep navy bottom case to get multiple color samples in the same prototype (the final production units won't be two toned). There should be a gunmetal prototype knob as well as we were exploring color matching the knob to the case (this also provides us with gunmetal color samples). Here are some more pictures that the factory sent us:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Wow.. I need that in my life right now. I didn't know, but I was waiting for that case my whole life :eek:
Post by: iknowreal on Fri, 02 April 2021, 13:59:19
Thanks for all the support! The factory has finished producing the prototype and is shipping it to Germany. It should hopefully arrive late next week and spend roughly a week with Keebwerk before being shipped to us in California.
We prototyped an ewhite top case and deep navy bottom case to get multiple color samples in the same prototype (the final production units won't be two toned). There should be a gunmetal prototype knob as well as we were exploring color matching the knob to the case (this also provides us with gunmetal color samples). Here are some more pictures that the factory sent us:
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Ahh so here we go again. R00dy playing with my emotions. Slowly trying to draw me back in after I said I was going to leave this alone after having notifications and looking at this every single day for 4-5months.
Post by: Viti0 on Mon, 05 April 2021, 07:27:52
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 10 April 2021, 08:46:11
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: garald on Sat, 10 April 2021, 10:47:31
Post by: Nles on Mon, 12 April 2021, 01:42:44
Post by: BirgusLatro on Mon, 12 April 2021, 09:38:37
Knobs: gorgeous
Proto: flawless
Typing test: about to be heavenly
GB: LFG!!!!
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 24 April 2021, 17:38:37
Timeline:
Order for second prototype is placed (last week of April)
Second prototype will reach Keebwerk around end of May, early June
Second prototype will be shipped to California (early June)
Second prototype will be sent to a streamer to be built and reviewed (early June)
Picture of built prototype
[attachimg=1]
Post by: waylaidwanderer on Sat, 24 April 2021, 18:12:45
Looks so good! Great to finally see a built prototype.
Post by: UGunaLOSE on Sun, 25 April 2021, 07:46:06
Post by: iknowreal on Sun, 25 April 2021, 10:11:23
Post by: cojojo11 on Mon, 03 May 2021, 10:59:54
Post by: Bobatype on Mon, 03 May 2021, 11:56:05
Hmmmm...Deep Navy or E-White with Kat Mizu :-\If KAT Mizu is your endgame keycap set then I'd get Deep Navy, but if you have multiple sets on the way, and plan to rotate, the White is much more versatile, albeit less unique than Deep Navy.
Post by: iknowreal on Mon, 03 May 2021, 12:14:23
Post by: IRLRaptor on Wed, 05 May 2021, 07:08:07
Hmmmm...Deep Navy or E-White with Kat Mizu :-\
Blood Moon or Moonlight for the Kat Mizu?
I was thinking E-white with SA Ramses in Nile / Gold&Sand accents
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 11 May 2021, 15:06:00
Post by: Lazesummerstone on Wed, 12 May 2021, 14:14:26
Post by: dxxbox on Tue, 18 May 2021, 00:33:41
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 24 May 2021, 13:48:25
The weight alone... is gorgeous!! :eek:
Dear Sir, This is dxxbox from China, Love this keyboard when I first saw it, then I register and rely with faith that i can have a chance to order one, this will be my ultimate one.
Thanks for the support and kind words. We have a few updates regarding the status of the prototype
1. Due to popular demand, we've decided to include foam. There will be foam between the plate and PCB, and beneath the PCB. Foam will be optional during the build process and it will not affect the groupbuy price.
2. The second prototype case (with a gunmetal top and black bottom) will be completed and shipped to Germany by the end of next week.
3. Gasket production will delay the groupbuy as molds are currently being made. Keebwerk is ordering the gaskets in bulk as they will be used in other projects besides the Paragon.
4. We're aiming for a late July groupbuy date. The specific dates and times will be announced later.
Post by: dxxbox on Wed, 26 May 2021, 09:01:29
Post by: r00dy on Wed, 26 May 2021, 23:45:29
Dear r00dy, if the total amount of the keyboard are limited, does it mean there will be spot sell? Or we need to wait another 7-12 months?
I'm not sure I fully understand the question but if you're asking whether or not this is a groupbuy with a waiting period, then the answer is yes. It's not an in stock item so you will have to wait some time.
Post by: 0hh.Hello on Tue, 01 June 2021, 20:13:39
Post by: KevenKeys on Thu, 03 June 2021, 00:04:56
Post by: Delicious Deity on Sun, 06 June 2021, 14:44:09
Post by: r00dy on Sun, 06 June 2021, 22:46:29
This is one of those times I wish I'd never discovered mechanical keyboards because this is so beautiful, and I want it, but my wallet weeps because I just can't justify spending that much money. But for real, well done. It's gorgeous!
Offff the prototype looks great! Cannot wait for this board! Well done.... it is beautiful.
Thanks for the support, the machining has been finished and the anodization is currently underway.
Shame about the lack of RGBs.
When designing the pcb, we were careful to ensure the exclusion of RGB for aesthetic purposes.
Post by: Delicious Deity on Mon, 07 June 2021, 10:35:02
This is one of those times I wish I'd never discovered mechanical keyboards because this is so beautiful, and I want it, but my wallet weeps because I just can't justify spending that much money. But for real, well done. It's gorgeous!Offff the prototype looks great! Cannot wait for this board! Well done.... it is beautiful.
Thanks for the support, the machining has been finished and the anodization is currently underway.Shame about the lack of RGBs.
When designing the pcb, we were careful to ensure the exclusion of RGB for aesthetic purposes.
Which I think is a shame. You might not like RGBs but plenty of people do. Besides me having and using RGBs shouldn't really matter to those who don't like and don't want RGBs.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 07 June 2021, 21:48:01
This is one of those times I wish I'd never discovered mechanical keyboards because this is so beautiful, and I want it, but my wallet weeps because I just can't justify spending that much money. But for real, well done. It's gorgeous!Offff the prototype looks great! Cannot wait for this board! Well done.... it is beautiful.
Thanks for the support, the machining has been finished and the anodization is currently underway.Shame about the lack of RGBs.
When designing the pcb, we were careful to ensure the exclusion of RGB for aesthetic purposes.
Which I think is a shame. You might not like RGBs but plenty of people do. Besides me having and using RGBs shouldn't really matter to those who don't like and don't want RGBs.
We felt strongly that rgb clashed with the design we had in mind for the Paragon. Similar to the omission of blockers or offset arrow clusters, it was a conscious design choice we made to maintain the aesthetic we envisioned.
Post by: surplusofchairs on Tue, 08 June 2021, 10:50:54
Post by: santela on Mon, 21 June 2021, 09:22:42
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 25 June 2021, 15:58:42
looks really nice :) im not the biggest fan of 75s but im from the bay so im interested for the skyline weight. hopefully this goes well and you can run a 65 ver in the future too :D
Thanks! Unfortunately, we're not planning on running a 65% version of this so the likelihood of this weight reappearing is quite low.
Man as we are close to GB date I so so hope I'm fast enough to get one. This is on the top of my keyboard wish list.
Thanks!
I've added some updates from the past month or so to the main post.
Post by: surplusofchairs on Mon, 28 June 2021, 13:32:55
looks really nice :) im not the biggest fan of 75s but im from the bay so im interested for the skyline weight. hopefully this goes well and you can run a 65 ver in the future too :D
Thanks! Unfortunately, we're not planning on running a 65% version of this so the likelihood of this weight reappearing is quite low.
ohp i have to try and get in on this then. im a structural engr in the bay i need this weight haha. fn keys would be good for work
Post by: BullRage on Thu, 01 July 2021, 01:53:58
Bloody hell. That wall thickness though. You could park a car on this thing. LOL
Which, to me is pretty cool, but my god man. That is a lot of material.Hi everyone, I'm new in the forum! Wish I knew about it earlier to catch CyberVoyager and Space65. But, hopefully I'll catch the designs now. I'd be interested in Paragon!Count me in on that!This really is a pretty keyboard. I love the knobs and the engraved weight. I won't be able to afford this but I wish you the best of luck with the project. :)
Thanks for all the support! The factory has finished producing the prototype and is shipping it to Germany. It should hopefully arrive late next week and spend roughly a week with Keebwerk before being shipped to us in California.
We prototyped an ewhite top case and deep navy bottom case to get multiple color samples in the same prototype (the final production units won't be two toned). There should be a gunmetal prototype knob as well as we were exploring color matching the knob to the case (this also provides us with gunmetal color samples). Here are some more pictures that the factory sent us:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
What are the screw holes for in the plate; it's a gasket-mount, rihgt?
Post by: MichelKami on Thu, 01 July 2021, 18:08:19
Post by: aerospice on Fri, 02 July 2021, 02:47:38
Post by: Xherion on Fri, 02 July 2021, 09:25:14
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 05 July 2021, 20:12:11
Bloody hell. That wall thickness though. You could park a car on this thing. LOL
Which, to me is pretty cool, but my god man. That is a lot of material.Hi everyone, I'm new in the forum! Wish I knew about it earlier to catch CyberVoyager and Space65. But, hopefully I'll catch the designs now. I'd be interested in Paragon!Count me in on that!This really is a pretty keyboard. I love the knobs and the engraved weight. I won't be able to afford this but I wish you the best of luck with the project. :)
Thanks for all the support! The factory has finished producing the prototype and is shipping it to Germany. It should hopefully arrive late next week and spend roughly a week with Keebwerk before being shipped to us in California.
We prototyped an ewhite top case and deep navy bottom case to get multiple color samples in the same prototype (the final production units won't be two toned). There should be a gunmetal prototype knob as well as we were exploring color matching the knob to the case (this also provides us with gunmetal color samples). Here are some more pictures that the factory sent us:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
What are the screw holes for in the plate; it's a gasket-mount, rihgt?
Yes it is a gasket mount. The holes are for standoffs that can be used to secure a hotswap pcb to the plate by screwing the plate and pcb together. If there aren't any standoffs, the pcb and plate are simply held together by the switches. If you assemble the case with the hotswap pcb without standoffs and decide that you want to swap all the switches out later, you have to leave a few switches in to hold the pcb and plate together while swapping swiches or else the pcb will fall to the bottom of the case (this means that you will have to open it up again). Standoffs simply allow for you to swap all the switches out without having to concern yourself with pcb alignment or leaving switches in when swapping switches in an assembled case. The use of standoffs is entirely optional but the option was provided in the first prototype. We're testing the variable plate thickness design with only one standoff for rotary encoder support so there's a chance we may reduce or entirely eliminate the standoffs (and consequently the holes in the plate as well).
I respect that even through all the scrutiny you kept your cool and made adjustments to see it through. GLWGB brodie
This is definitely one of my most anticipated boards this year! The e-white color looks especially clean, same with the artisan knobs.
Thanks for the kind words, they mean a lot.
So when will the GB start?
I'm linking our status update from 07/05 on discord since it explains the current status of project at the moment:
Prototype Update:
The plate and case foam are also on schedule and are currently being prototyped and the gaskets are nearly complete. We anticipate that the prototype and revised plates will ship next week.
Streamer Status Update:
Originally, we had tentatively set up a stream with Minterly for her to stream the Paragon build but she has decided to step away from the mech community for the time being and we wish her all the best! We are currently discussing a stream scheduled for early August with another streamer.
Groupbuy Date Update:
Due to the delay in the PVD finishing as well as some minor corrections to the files sent to the manufacturer, we are looking to push the groupbuy by two weeks or so, into early August. We will finalize the date soon.
However, I do have a progress picture of the anodized prototype from the factory. Please note that the lighting isn't ideal and that we will take better pictures with more accurate lighting when we receive the prototype.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: acidbern on Mon, 05 July 2021, 22:07:26
Post by: santela on Mon, 05 July 2021, 23:20:54
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 06 July 2021, 16:07:37
Cool! Thanks for the update! Looking forward to perhaps an e-white version! Or whatever colour options we might get at GB!
You're welcome, the colors as per the main post are E-white, Black, Deep Navy, & Gunmetal. The colors haven't changed over the past few months and we don't anticipate any changes in colors before the gb.
I suck at FCFS, was really hoping this would be unlimited.
Unfortunately, an unlimited gb is currently infeasible. We feel comfortable with the quantity and format of the GB.
Post by: Xherion on Tue, 06 July 2021, 19:49:15
Quick question on the plate options, in the first page of IC it mentions Polycarbonate and VT Alu, but in discord FAQ still mentions only brass, so what is the finalised option?
Post by: acidbern on Tue, 06 July 2021, 20:06:35
Cool! Thanks for the update! Looking forward to perhaps an e-white version! Or whatever colour options we might get at GB!
You're welcome, the colors as per the main post are E-white, Black, Deep Navy, & Gunmetal. The colors haven't changed over the past few months and we don't anticipate any changes in colors before the gb.I suck at FCFS, was really hoping this would be unlimited.
Unfortunately, an unlimited gb is currently infeasible. We feel comfortable with the quantity and format of the GB.
Awesome. Hope I can cop an e-white board at GB!
Post by: SwirlCables on Sat, 10 July 2021, 01:00:18
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 12 July 2021, 10:44:44
very clean!
Thanks!
Very nice and clean looking design.
Quick question on the plate options, in the first page of IC it mentions Polycarbonate and VT Alu, but in discord FAQ still mentions only brass, so what is the finalised option?
We're experimenting with 3 mm brass, 3 mm pc, and the aluminum variable thickness plate. We haven't decided which options to offer. We also haven't decided which plate will be the main plate option.
On the updates front, the prototype is finished and will ship to us tomorrow. The gaskets and feet should be done today and ship within the next week as well.
Post by: dxxbox on Tue, 27 July 2021, 02:58:40
Any LE of GB?
Post by: iknowreal on Tue, 27 July 2021, 04:49:41
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 27 July 2021, 14:06:24
Hi r00dy,
Any LE of GB?
If by LE you mean limited edition, we don't plan on offering a limited edition.
Lol stop trying to bump this thread and let it go back to the bottom.
Not sure where this is coming from as I didn't bump the thread until we had tangible updates. I've updated the main post with the pictures of the second prototype and the status of the project.
Post by: 8BitTim on Sat, 31 July 2021, 23:55:22
Post by: tonnu on Sun, 01 August 2021, 03:56:56
75 for SEA sounds very, very low. jelly epoch had 150 quota for SEA and it literally crashed the vendors' servers.
i really, really want to get this. Please!!
Post by: OptimusPrime00 on Sun, 01 August 2021, 06:55:07
Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk
Post by: acidbern on Sun, 01 August 2021, 07:30:56
Post by: 8BitTim on Sun, 01 August 2021, 08:45:21
I agree, 300 allotment for the US may just encourage scalpers. With how many are currently interested in this, why not make it an unlimited buy for a set amount of time? Couldn't hurt to let everyone who wants one get one.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 02 August 2021, 10:56:14
Really looking forward to this keyboard, only reason I joined this group. Any potential release date for a GB since it's now being revised for a third time? Completely understand the want to have a perfect product before it goes out.
Thanks for the support! We're going to hold off on announcements regarding a timeline until we're confident in the prototype and are ready to proceed to the groupbuy. Tentatively, I'd expect a groupbuy closer to the end of the year barring any major setbacks.
Did the IC also have a vote on where the purchases might come from? I hope theres enough in every location. I dont mind waiting for a well QC board. But just have enough for all the interested parties to get one Id love the eWhite Paragon for my new hobby.
The IC did have a vote and it is how we selected the quantity allocation. Please see the attached image:
[attachimg=1]
I agree, 300 allotment for the US may just encourage scalpers. With how many are currently interested in this, why not make it an unlimited buy for a set amount of time? Couldn't hurt to let everyone who wants one get one.
The image attached above shows the interest distribution. It's how we arrived at 300 for the US.
given the hype can you maybe consider increasing the cap?
75 for SEA sounds very, very low. jelly epoch had 150 quota for SEA and it literally crashed the vendors' servers.
i really, really want to get this. Please!!
yes please!! increase the cap for EU too! since it takes longer to get the group buy ready... it's a great idea!
Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk
I'm not sure how delays before the groupbuy warrant an increase in quantity as the two seem quite unrelated to me. As first time groupbuy runners, we don't want to overextend ourselves with a larger quantity. We also want to build trust with the community and that means proving that we can deliver a quality product within a reasonable time frame after the groupbuy runs. There is a high likelihood that the board may not sell out so preemptively requesting an unlimited groupbuy seems rather premature.
Post by: bastijn on Mon, 02 August 2021, 11:06:07
Post by: Lazesummerstone on Mon, 02 August 2021, 13:50:00
Post by: 8BitTim on Mon, 02 August 2021, 21:09:23
Too rounded for my taste and not a double exploded layout but I do like the side profile of the case. GL moving this to GB and beyond!I love the look of this board personally. Very clean and it just looks like a solid rock. Don't even mind at this point there's no RGB, I think it works for this.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 06 September 2021, 20:22:34
Wow you had me at gunmetal. ;D
Too rounded for my taste and not a double exploded layout but I do like the side profile of the case. GL moving this to GB and beyond!I love the look of this board personally. Very clean and it just looks like a solid rock. Don't even mind at this point there's no RGB, I think it works for this.
Thanks, we have placed the order for the third prototype. I've updated the main post with a status update.
Post by: santela on Fri, 10 September 2021, 09:43:06
There is a high likelihood that the board may not sell out so preemptively requesting an unlimited groupbuy seems rather premature.
Uhh... I can tell you with full confidence the board will not last longer than 3 seconds.
Post by: Bonta on Sun, 12 September 2021, 10:12:28
Especially for EU.
Post by: OptimusPrime00 on Sun, 12 September 2021, 10:52:51
Would love to get this too but agree with others that this board will disappear in seconds as soon as GB starts. Please consider upping the limits or perhaps unlimited GB if possible...I second that, please increase the quantity for EU please.
Especially for EU.
Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk
Post by: ylothar on Sun, 12 September 2021, 12:50:32
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 13 September 2021, 08:16:17
I have been preferring the Paragon over the quite well-known Glorious GMMK pro because I believe it will be customized more towards preferences of the community.
I just realized the mounting points of Paragon are indeed quite similar to that of the Glorious GMMK Pro (75%) - there are also mounting points on the side. On the contrary, I found most of the mounting points of builds - even as big as 75% and TKL (iirc e.g. RAMA U80, Zenith, TGR Jane) are mostly just mounted at the top edge and the bottom edge for more uniform flex across the board. This is one major reason I hesitate about getting the Glorious GMMK Pro.
I know this question is raised relatively late in the prototyping progress. I just want to point it out and let Op to have the chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision.
By the way, I like the manufacturer - hope this will make those in the EU enjoy better VAT rate.
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 13 September 2021, 11:31:25
There is a high likelihood that the board may not sell out so preemptively requesting an unlimited groupbuy seems rather premature.
Uhh... I can tell you with full confidence the board will not last longer than 3 seconds.
Would love to get this too but agree with others that this board will disappear in seconds as soon as GB starts. Please consider upping the limits or perhaps unlimited GB if possible...
Especially for EU.
Would love to get this too but agree with others that this board will disappear in seconds as soon as GB starts. Please consider upping the limits or perhaps unlimited GB if possible...I second that, please increase the quantity for EU please.
Especially for EU.
Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk
I agree: after all these months there is an exaggerated hype for this board. Especially for us in the EU it would be better to considerably increase the expected quantities or even opt for an unlimited GB :cool:
Thanks for the support, we truly appreciate it. We personally feel like the allocated quantities are large enough as is; if we were to do it again, we would probably run a lower quantity. We've reiterated our stance on the groupbuy format and quantities multiple times. Here are some of the more recent instances on geekhack:
Really looking forward to this keyboard, only reason I joined this group. Any potential release date for a GB since it's now being revised for a third time? Completely understand the want to have a perfect product before it goes out.
Thanks for the support! We're going to hold off on announcements regarding a timeline until we're confident in the prototype and are ready to proceed to the groupbuy. Tentatively, I'd expect a groupbuy closer to the end of the year barring any major setbacks.Did the IC also have a vote on where the purchases might come from? I hope theres enough in every location. I dont mind waiting for a well QC board. But just have enough for all the interested parties to get one Id love the eWhite Paragon for my new hobby.
The IC did have a vote and it is how we selected the quantity allocation. Please see the attached image:
[attachimg=1]
I agree, 300 allotment for the US may just encourage scalpers. With how many are currently interested in this, why not make it an unlimited buy for a set amount of time? Couldn't hurt to let everyone who wants one get one.
The image attached above shows the interest distribution. It's how we arrived at 300 for the US.given the hype can you maybe consider increasing the cap?
75 for SEA sounds very, very low. jelly epoch had 150 quota for SEA and it literally crashed the vendors' servers.
i really, really want to get this. Please!!yes please!! increase the cap for EU too! since it takes longer to get the group buy ready... it's a great idea!
Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk
I'm not sure how delays before the groupbuy warrant an increase in quantity as the two seem quite unrelated to me. As first time groupbuy runners, we don't want to overextend ourselves with a larger quantity. We also want to build trust with the community and that means proving that we can deliver a quality product within a reasonable time frame after the groupbuy runs. There is a high likelihood that the board may not sell out so preemptively requesting an unlimited groupbuy seems rather premature.
Cool! Thanks for the update! Looking forward to perhaps an e-white version! Or whatever colour options we might get at GB!
You're welcome, the colors as per the main post are E-white, Black, Deep Navy, & Gunmetal. The colors haven't changed over the past few months and we don't anticipate any changes in colors before the gb.I suck at FCFS, was really hoping this would be unlimited.
Unfortunately, an unlimited gb is currently infeasible. We feel comfortable with the quantity and format of the GB.
Regarding the issue surrounding hype, I'd like to point out that the geekhack thread was dead for the duration between updates. If anything, we believe that the prolonged delays reduce hype and interest. The quantities are fixed and will not change.
Show Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=107743.0;attach=259943;image)
I have been preferring the Paragon over the quite well-known Glorious GMMK pro because I believe it will be customized more towards preferences of the community.
I just realized the mounting points of Paragon are indeed quite similar to that of the Glorious GMMK Pro (75%) - there are also mounting points on the side. On the contrary, I found most of the mounting points of builds - even as big as 75% and TKL (iirc e.g. RAMA U80, Zenith, TGR Jane) are mostly just mounted at the top edge and the bottom edge for more uniform flex across the board. This is one major reason I hesitate about getting the Glorious GMMK Pro.
I know this question is raised relatively late in the prototyping progress. I just want to point it out and let Op to have the chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision.
By the way, I like the manufacturer - hope this will make those in the EU enjoy better VAT rate.
Thanks for the interest. If you refer to the latest update on the main post (9/06), you will notice that the side gasket tabs have been removed and the plate thickness has been reduced to 1.5 mm. The following, however, was the original reasoning (copy pasted from a previous geekhack reply):
"Keebwerk ran some plate analysis and determined that it was ideal to use the 3mm plate with the gasket implementation as shown right now. Our gasket implementation is not as focused on plate flex as we have a 3 mm plate which already reduces plate flex substantially. We thought about it and decided that the side gaskets can be optional (you don't have to insert them if you don't want to) but the option exists."
I would like to add that we found the 3 mm pc and pom plates to be surprisingly flexible. However, we decided to standardize the plate for increased flex due to the recent trends regarding flex. For full transparency, I personally prefer a stiffer typing experience whereas my partner prefers a softer typing experience so we hope to provide both options with a variety of gasket and plate options during the groupbuy.
On a side note, I would also like to point out that I found the final sentence of the inquiry regarding the 3 mm plate rather loaded. The plate design has been addressed in virtually each iteration and this exact question has already been answered. I can understand citing other popular boards as references to substantiate the claim but I personally felt like the question was biased in assuming that side tabs were necessarily inferior while also affording me a "chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision". While I agree with your opinion, I disagree with the phrasing of your inquiry. On a more general note, I implore everyone to read through this thread before asking questions. All of the information that I've reiterated in this response can be found in this thread.
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 13 September 2021, 14:13:06
MoreShow Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=107743.0;attach=259943;image)
I have been preferring the Paragon over the quite well-known Glorious GMMK pro because I believe it will be customized more towards preferences of the community.
I just realized the mounting points of Paragon are indeed quite similar to that of the Glorious GMMK Pro (75%) - there are also mounting points on the side. On the contrary, I found most of the mounting points of builds - even as big as 75% and TKL (iirc e.g. RAMA U80, Zenith, TGR Jane) are mostly just mounted at the top edge and the bottom edge for more uniform flex across the board. This is one major reason I hesitate about getting the Glorious GMMK Pro.
I know this question is raised relatively late in the prototyping progress. I just want to point it out and let Op to have the chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision.
By the way, I like the manufacturer - hope this will make those in the EU enjoy better VAT rate.
Thanks for the interest. If you refer to the latest update on the main post (9/06), you will notice that the side gasket tabs have been removed and the plate thickness has been reduced to 1.5 mm. The following, however, was the original reasoning (copy pasted from a previous geekhack reply):
"Keebwerk ran some plate analysis and determined that it was ideal to use the 3mm plate with the gasket implementation as shown right now. Our gasket implementation is not as focused on plate flex as we have a 3 mm plate which already reduces plate flex substantially. We thought about it and decided that the side gaskets can be optional (you don't have to insert them if you don't want to) but the option exists."
I would like to add that we found the 3 mm pc and pom plates to be surprisingly flexible. However, we decided to standardize the plate for increased flex due to the recent trends regarding flex. For full transparency, I personally prefer a stiffer typing experience whereas my partner prefers a softer typing experience so we hope to provide both options with a variety of gasket and plate options during the groupbuy.
On a side note, I would also like to point out that I found the final sentence of the inquiry regarding the 3 mm plate rather loaded. The plate design has been addressed in virtually each iteration and this exact question has already been answered. I can understand citing other popular boards as references to substantiate the claim but I personally felt like the question was biased in assuming that side tabs were necessarily inferior while also affording me a "chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision". While I agree with your opinion, I disagree with the phrasing of your inquiry. On a more general note, I implore everyone to read through this thread before asking questions. All of the information that I've reiterated in this response can be found in this thread.
Didn't see the photo of prototype 3 but now I'm aware of the decision to remove side tabs of the plate - thanks for the pointer and the hassle to reiterate how the design process was.
Perhaps I am biased against having side tabs but it limits to having flex in a design. Side tabs are not necessarily inferior when a design wants full support such as in the top/bottom/sandwich mount. "Flex" depends mostly on the plate material, e.g. for users like yourself who prefer a stiffer typing experience usually can opt for harder plate material such as brass which almost does not flex at all. And there is also the "give" while typing that depends on the material of the gaskets. Flexible plates with tabs on the side flex like a funny trampoline - stiffer also on both sides and maybe some people will like it still.
Hope you feel more comfortable about my phrasing this time, and GLW prototying and GB with this nice design!
Post by: iknowreal on Mon, 20 September 2021, 13:55:21
Post by: santela on Wed, 22 September 2021, 20:56:52
and wondering if I feel the same way about it.
I always do
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 24 September 2021, 15:14:17
MoreShow Image(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=107743.0;attach=259943;image)
I have been preferring the Paragon over the quite well-known Glorious GMMK pro because I believe it will be customized more towards preferences of the community.
I just realized the mounting points of Paragon are indeed quite similar to that of the Glorious GMMK Pro (75%) - there are also mounting points on the side. On the contrary, I found most of the mounting points of builds - even as big as 75% and TKL (iirc e.g. RAMA U80, Zenith, TGR Jane) are mostly just mounted at the top edge and the bottom edge for more uniform flex across the board. This is one major reason I hesitate about getting the Glorious GMMK Pro.
I know this question is raised relatively late in the prototyping progress. I just want to point it out and let Op to have the chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision.
By the way, I like the manufacturer - hope this will make those in the EU enjoy better VAT rate.
Thanks for the interest. If you refer to the latest update on the main post (9/06), you will notice that the side gasket tabs have been removed and the plate thickness has been reduced to 1.5 mm. The following, however, was the original reasoning (copy pasted from a previous geekhack reply):
"Keebwerk ran some plate analysis and determined that it was ideal to use the 3mm plate with the gasket implementation as shown right now. Our gasket implementation is not as focused on plate flex as we have a 3 mm plate which already reduces plate flex substantially. We thought about it and decided that the side gaskets can be optional (you don't have to insert them if you don't want to) but the option exists."
I would like to add that we found the 3 mm pc and pom plates to be surprisingly flexible. However, we decided to standardize the plate for increased flex due to the recent trends regarding flex. For full transparency, I personally prefer a stiffer typing experience whereas my partner prefers a softer typing experience so we hope to provide both options with a variety of gasket and plate options during the groupbuy.
On a side note, I would also like to point out that I found the final sentence of the inquiry regarding the 3 mm plate rather loaded. The plate design has been addressed in virtually each iteration and this exact question has already been answered. I can understand citing other popular boards as references to substantiate the claim but I personally felt like the question was biased in assuming that side tabs were necessarily inferior while also affording me a "chance to elaborate the rationale behind such design decision". While I agree with your opinion, I disagree with the phrasing of your inquiry. On a more general note, I implore everyone to read through this thread before asking questions. All of the information that I've reiterated in this response can be found in this thread.
Didn't see the photo of prototype 3 but now I'm aware of the decision to remove side tabs of the plate - thanks for the pointer and the hassle to reiterate how the design process was.
Perhaps I am biased against having side tabs but it limits to having flex in a design. Side tabs are not necessarily inferior when a design wants full support such as in the top/bottom/sandwich mount. "Flex" depends mostly on the plate material, e.g. for users like yourself who prefer a stiffer typing experience usually can opt for harder plate material such as brass which almost does not flex at all. And there is also the "give" while typing that depends on the material of the gaskets. Flexible plates with tabs on the side flex like a funny trampoline - stiffer also on both sides and maybe some people will like it still.
Hope you feel more comfortable about my phrasing this time, and GLW prototying and GB with this nice design!
Thanks! The third proto is actually in production at the moment, I was specifically referring to updates on the main post.
Every 500 years I gotta come to this thread just to see if I imagined this board and wondering if I feel the same way about it.
Same.
Post by: MdotMaxson on Sat, 25 September 2021, 23:10:56
Post by: evidentLEE on Sat, 25 September 2021, 23:53:10
Post by: r00dy on Wed, 29 September 2021, 09:17:00
Sick. So is glorious coming out with a new version of gmmk pro with every skyline ? I hope they do LA.
No.
Post by: deejparulan on Sat, 02 October 2021, 07:37:45
Post by: lush_bunny on Sun, 03 October 2021, 21:27:25
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 05 October 2021, 22:25:55
How set are you with the KBD75 layout?
Can you add a horizontally offset cluster?
At the end of the day, theres only so many suggestions we can take while retaining the identity of the board. Weve decided that symmetry and the even bezel fundamentally define this board and set it apart. While we understand that this might be a dealbreaker for some of you, we feel that adding a cluster would change the identity of the board and of course the number of SKUs for the top body of the board.
Can you add WKL?
Standard WKL layouts have blockers and as we just mentioned, weve decided against blockers; however, we have decided to support a layout that supports two mods on both sides to preserve the WKL functionality without the blockers (see new renders above). We felt like this was an amenable solution because it did not fundamentally alter the seamless aesthetic of the board.
Can you add an offset arrow cluster?
The mounting system is embedded within the bezel. To use an offset cluster, we would have to redesign the board from the ground up. Additionally, the offset arrow cluster board would be larger, so adding an entirely larger board as a SKU which would be both expensive to develop and sell due to the entirely new SKU. We also didnt like the idea of the spacing and symmetry being compromised but the feasibility of implementing an offset cluster was what really eliminated this option from contention.
Answered in the main post over a year ago. As an aside, I believe the kbd75 doesn't have an offset or spaced out function row so the layout isn't the same.
Post by: lush_bunny on Wed, 13 October 2021, 21:39:12
The Paragon's layout is perfect.
Post by: peekoki on Thu, 28 October 2021, 15:45:03
Post by: santela on Fri, 29 October 2021, 07:10:31
Post by: grayboards on Sat, 30 October 2021, 02:07:29
Post by: SmitH1y on Tue, 02 November 2021, 10:13:31
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 05 November 2021, 09:01:59
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Post by: santela on Wed, 01 December 2021, 22:56:51
Post by: r00dy on Fri, 03 December 2021, 08:43:02
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Any updates on GB date?
We're hoping to update the groupbuy status after we thoroughly test this prototype.
Post by: NINJER on Sun, 05 December 2021, 03:04:23
+1 for Australia!
Post by: r00dy on Sat, 11 December 2021, 13:28:04
Only just saw this now, but I want in for Purple for my GMK Mecha-01 endgame...
+1 for Australia!
Thanks! I noticed someone requested a green knob to match Mecha-01 and wanted to mention that we won't be adding or changing any of the knob colors from here on out. The pairing with Mecha-01 was purely coincidental.
After some testing, we feel confident in running this design for the groupbuy. I've updated the main post and will continue to do so until the groupbuy as more information comes in. In the meantime, feel free to read the status update in the main post and look at some of the pictures of the third prototype.
Post by: LazerFox on Sun, 12 December 2021, 15:05:03
Post by: r00dy on Wed, 15 December 2021, 19:44:41
Post by: Altain on Thu, 16 December 2021, 03:03:28
But....but only 75 units allocated to Asia....it'll be a hell of a competition to snatch one I'd presume.
Regardless, GLWGB and thx for a gorgeous board!
Post by: r00dy on Thu, 16 December 2021, 18:54:01
Discord invite ain't working atm but I can fully expect it will be functional before the actual GB, right? :D
But....but only 75 units allocated to Asia....it'll be a hell of a competition to snatch one I'd presume.
Regardless, GLWGB and thx for a gorgeous board!
Thanks for the support. We can't really speak to how it will sell in terms of selling out in various regions. Not sure what the issue regarding the discord invite is, we've had an influx of members joining over the past few days and a few members in the server double checked the link and it seems to be working. If you or someone else can replicate the issue and let me know what it is, I can look into it. We're working on finalizing the last few details and we'll hopefully have more info in the next week.
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 28 December 2021, 12:00:04
Any updates on GB date?
Bumping for visibility since we have all the relevant information. The groupbuy will start on Jan 8th. We're ironing out the end date but I would expect it to be the end of Jan. The price should be $480 USD with the specifics updated in the main post.
Post by: santela on Wed, 29 December 2021, 03:50:46
Post by: r00dy on Mon, 03 January 2022, 12:39:13
Oh god I'm so excited! Really hope I can get one!
Thanks for the support. Please make sure to join the discord for the latest updates.
Alexotos build the board yesterday on stream and I've linked the soundtests and vod in the main post. We're ironing out the final details regarding the exact groupbuy times and I'll update the post (and possibly start the groupbuy thread) once everything is confirmed.
Post by: Nurseh on Mon, 03 January 2022, 14:39:44
Post by: r00dy on Tue, 04 January 2022, 09:00:19
Are there prototypes with the rest of the colorways?
The top of the first, second, and third prototypes respectively are eWhite, Gunmetal, and Deep Navy. The third prototype's bottom case is Deep Navy (there are better angles in our discord and the stream vod). The black should be the same as the keebwerk mega so that should cover all the physical color samples.
Post by: hongoo on Sat, 05 March 2022, 08:27:57