Author Topic: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes  (Read 6313 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 10:42:23 »
So I was talking to my brother about playing with our old Commodore 64 and he mentioned that he can't.  When I asked why he said it's because he still has carpel tunnel and 15 minutes of wrist movement like that will be all his hand can do for the whole day.

So what type of keyboard would be good for his hands?  He's primarily on touchscreens and have the MS natural/countoured keyboards for home and work, but I'm thinking there's probably something better.  I had him look at the matias ergonomic with quiet keys and he didn't think the tenting would set up well for him.

Any ideas?

Offline sitch

  • Posts: 259
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 12:05:13 »
why not seek treatment for the carpal tunnel syndrome instead?

Offline profet

  • Posts: 137
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 14:32:27 »
Ergodox as the ability to move the halves further apart then standard split keyboards is a huge asset.

The second thing you might want to look into is changing the key layout. DVORAK or COLEMAK layout may lead to less wrist movement depend on typing style.
Bringing custom Ergodoxes to the masses.

My heatware: http://www.heatware.com/u/102649

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 14:41:43 »
Well, his only option is surgery at this point.  He had release surgery in 11th grade of HS on his left hand and his right has needed surgery since 12th in HS.  I'm guessing he doesn't want to do surgery on his right hand.

I don't think he ever knew about switches like the matias quiet or cherry reds that could have helped in the years since HS.  And he's not the type that will seek this stuff out, so I'm trying to see if there's something that would be perfect and be a nice xmas gift.

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 15:23:52 »
Ergodox as the ability to move the halves further apart then standard split keyboards is a huge asset.

The second thing you might want to look into is changing the key layout. DVORAK or COLEMAK layout may lead to less wrist movement depend on typing style.
I think if the ergodox has enough tenting/arrangement possibilities then that may be the ultimate for him.

As far as alternative layouts, I don't think that's going to be possible as he's stuck on an ipad 50% of the time.


Offline MajorMajor

  • Posts: 88
  • Mechanical Keyboard Enthusiast
    • Coding Supply
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 21:51:21 »
Honestly I think the Microsoft Natural is the best ergonomic option for him other than ErgoDox if you can convince him to go that route. The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is going to have some awesome ergonomic features, but that won't be out for another year.
TKL / Clears / Dvorak / Flipped Space for Life / Best Programming Keyboards

Offline dutC4

  • Posts: 86
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 21:53:49 »
 :blank:
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2016, 15:27:11 by dutC4 »

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 29 October 2015, 23:10:56 »
Honestly I think the Microsoft Natural is the best ergonomic option for him other than ErgoDox if you can convince him to go that route. The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is going to have some awesome ergonomic features, but that won't be out for another year.
I agree with this, mechanicals may feel nice but the low travel and shape of some microsoft boards may be the best thing for him.
Honestly I think the Microsoft Natural is the best ergonomic option for him other than ErgoDox if you can convince him to go that route. The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is going to have some awesome ergonomic features, but that won't be out for another year.
He's actually been using these for years and still does.  He wore out the membranes on 4 of the original ones and keeps several 'in stock' although now that he's on touchscreens so much he only really needs one at work and at home.

But how light are those to type on?  I would think a matias ergo quiet would be lighter and just as ergonomic but he took one look at it and shot it down. :(


Offline dutC4

  • Posts: 86
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 00:03:59 »
 :blank:
« Last Edit: Thu, 22 December 2016, 15:21:08 by dutC4 »

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 04:35:58 »
Raise your wrists. Don't use a rest. Your wrists should be as straight as possible in all axes when typing / gaming. Or if your arms get tired like this, make a tall rest and rest the "nub" of your palm on that (hard bit at the base of the palm), so your wrists are straight.

Many people who have problems with their wrists now have been typing for years with extended wrists. Bad habit which causes all kinds of wrist trouble down the line.

There's no need to go to an "ergonomic" design to be able to type healthily. You can develop some good typing habits instead that work with the boards you're already familiar with. Raised hands, moving the whole hand instead of just your fingers to reduce long term strain and involve more muscle groups (including the shoulders), etc. Switch type also doesn't matter as much as good typing habits. Any switch can be used, but if someone has advanced / extreme trouble with their hands / wrists / fingers, then lighter switches can help. With raised wrists you're not just using the finger muscles to press the switch, but the whole hand and all the weight behind it can be used. That said, I tend to prefer lighter switches myself anyway. 62g Zealios are my current favourite.

It's okay to rest your hands when not actively typing, but it's still a good idea to keep your wrists straight even then. I tend to rest my left hand around the outside edge of my board.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Frizer

  • Posts: 62
  • Location: London, UK.
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 05:07:55 »
I find the SA and steep angled boards hard to type on for long periods. Also he might want to experiment with the position of the arms of his chair. I found DSA caps plus keeping my elbows raised helped.

Offline sitch

  • Posts: 259
  • Location: Malaysia
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 08:57:25 »
Maybe you should ask your friend to look for the precipitating factor because I have used normal keyboard for the past 15 years ( and long hours too ) because if the form like the post above is wrong then even a ergonomic keyboard wouldnt help

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 08:57:44 »
Interesting feedback.  I think he's already discovered how to keep his wrist completely isolated from movement via the MS keyboards else he wouldn't be able to type at work at all.  He says the touchscreens are the best since they require almost no actuation force at all. 

I wonder if one of those laser projection keyboards is exactly what he needs then?
http://www.gearbest.com/iphone-bluetooth-keyboard/pp_69416.html
http://www.brookstone.com/laser-projection-virtual-keyboard/796246p.html

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 09:12:07 »
Maybe you should ask your friend to look for the precipitating factor because I have used normal keyboard for the past 15 years ( and long hours too ) because if the form like the post above is wrong then even a ergonomic keyboard wouldnt help
There probably is a bit of a form issue that caused my brother's rsi in the beginning, but now since it's already there, almost anything aggravates it.  And now that I know much more about keyboards, I look at his issue as a problem that has a better solution than what he's currently got.


Offline profet

  • Posts: 137
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 09:54:57 »
He might be interested in trying an ErgoDox with Gateron Clears.
Bringing custom Ergodoxes to the masses.

My heatware: http://www.heatware.com/u/102649

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 10:48:25 »
He might be interested in trying an ErgoDox with Gateron Clears.
But the Ergodox is a build your own right?  Then I'd have to build it for him and then if he doesn't like it...


Offline profet

  • Posts: 137
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 11:29:43 »
He might be interested in trying an ErgoDox with Gateron Clears.
But the Ergodox is a build your own right?  Then I'd have to build it for him and then if he doesn't like it...



... sell it for more than the components cost?
Bringing custom Ergodoxes to the masses.

My heatware: http://www.heatware.com/u/102649

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 30 October 2015, 12:06:47 »
He might be interested in trying an ErgoDox with Gateron Clears.
But the Ergodox is a build your own right?  Then I'd have to build it for him and then if he doesn't like it...



... sell it for more than the components cost?
True, but the time.  I can't solder worth a damn.


Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 07:04:06 »
Interesting feedback.  I think he's already discovered how to keep his wrist completely isolated from movement via the MS keyboards else he wouldn't be able to type at work at all.
http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/vi_esc_syndrome.html

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 11:48:13 »
Interesting feedback.  I think he's already discovered how to keep his wrist completely isolated from movement via the MS keyboards else he wouldn't be able to type at work at all.
http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/vi_esc_syndrome.html
Good read.  Interesting about the emacs shortcuts.  When I was checking how I hit numbers, I realize that I always simply switch to the numeric keypad--it's less strain on my hands and I'm much, much faster there. 

I know my brother does the same, but I'll have to ask him about how it does numbers on the touchscreens.  I know he hover his hands quite high so it almost looks like he's hunting and pecking when he's not. 


Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 14:44:48 »
It's not about numbers per se. How do you type `~!@#$%^&*()'-_=+? What about Esc, Tab, Backspace, Enter, Ctrl, Fx etc.?

Another thing to keep in mind… Someone has recently linked a study that compared hardware and touchscreen keyboards—with obvious results: touchscreens allow effortless keystrokes, but at the cost of significantly increasing wrist strain, because fingers can't be "rested" on keys.

In this context, keyboard-less input methods are worth consideration. Something like MessagEase, Dasher, etc.

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 31 October 2015, 15:05:21 »
It's not about numbers per se. How do you type `~!@#$%^&*()'-_=+? What about Esc, Tab, Backspace, Enter, Ctrl, Fx etc.?

Another thing to keep in mind… Someone has recently linked a study that compared hardware and touchscreen keyboards—with obvious results: touchscreens allow effortless keystrokes, but at the cost of significantly increasing wrist strain, because fingers can't be "rested" on keys.

In this context, keyboard-less input methods are worth consideration. Something like MessagEase, Dasher, etc.
Interesting research.  I think touch screen typing for long times will show it's issues as more people start to do it for long periods.

I never heard of these before and they both look promising.  I think my brother may have mentioned dasher before.  Seems like a very cool project.


Offline mivanov

  • Posts: 27
  • something something
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 20 November 2015, 16:48:59 »
Another options that come to mind are the Kinesis Advantage plus a foot pedal. Or anything with foot pedals, because they remove the need for holding shift and ctrl at the very least.

Or even the legendary - Orbitouch or Datahand?

As for tenting, why not try a vertical keyboard instead? You can easily diy a mount for the Freestyle for example or buy the commercial one.

Now if we want another interface - I suggest voice,  and eyes. There are nice eye movement based mouses which with training could be used to type on an onscreen keyboard. The eyes are fast so maybe some reasonable speed can be achieved.

As for voice - you will need a decent mic and a lot of time for it.


Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 24 November 2015, 00:23:38 »
If he ever fancies a change of board there's this one that requires only 20 grams.

http://www.fentek-ind.com/split_magic.htm#.VlQBAdjhCUk



I'm guessing the way he's using the ms board will only work on the ms board, so any change of keyboard is going to be difficult.  I'd say if he won't/can't change, stock up on the ms, they get get quite stiff after just a few months usage, and swapping to a new one frequently will feel a good bit better.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 27 November 2015, 13:52:19 »
Another options that come to mind are the Kinesis Advantage plus a foot pedal. Or anything with foot pedals, because they remove the need for holding shift and ctrl at the very least.

Or even the legendary - Orbitouch or Datahand?

As for tenting, why not try a vertical keyboard instead? You can easily diy a mount for the Freestyle for example or buy the commercial one.

Now if we want another interface - I suggest voice,  and eyes. There are nice eye movement based mouses which with training could be used to type on an onscreen keyboard. The eyes are fast so maybe some reasonable speed can be achieved.

As for voice - you will need a decent mic and a lot of time for it.


He's not big on tenting as he's using the MS Sculpt at work right now.  I think the two main things he needs is a really light keypress with almost zero need for feedback, which is much different than what we as mech users usually want.
If he ever fancies a change of board there's this one that requires only 20 grams.

http://www.fentek-ind.com/split_magic.htm#.VlQBAdjhCUk
Show Image

Show Image
That's definitely an interesting board, especially that light.  But I wonder if that's mech or another membrane that will wear out later.
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 November 2015, 15:10:07 by SamirD »

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 27 November 2015, 14:00:00 »
 Pretty sure its membrane...
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Posts: 1502
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 28 November 2015, 13:33:23 »
I don't know much about it, but take a look at www.lightio.com. Looks like a modern day touch stream keyboard.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline mivanov

  • Posts: 27
  • something something
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 29 November 2015, 10:54:23 »
But then again some theories talk about the opposite motion used to pull back your finger. Basically using your extensors is what hurts, not the presses themselves which the flexors. Hence it could be that actually a higher force keyboard might turn out better since it moves back your fingers much like a typewriter. It's also dubious if it's good to have a minimal key travel on press since it's obviously not- ergonomic to type on a touch screen(your fingers can't rest on it either), but the bigger the key travel the more force should be used to push up your finger. I've read some ppl saying that greens actually helped them, so even if this sounds outrageous perhaps it should be tried.

Offline SamirD

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1508
  • Location: HSV and SFO
  • on Buckling Springs since '88
    • http://www.huntsvillecarscene.com
Re: Cannot Flex Wrist for More Than 15 Minutes
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 30 November 2015, 11:39:24 »
I don't know much about it, but take a look at www.lightio.com. Looks like a modern day touch stream keyboard.
I think this might seriously have some promise for him as its designed for carpel tunnel too.  Thank you for the link!
But then again some theories talk about the opposite motion used to pull back your finger. Basically using your extensors is what hurts, not the presses themselves which the flexors. Hence it could be that actually a higher force keyboard might turn out better since it moves back your fingers much like a typewriter. It's also dubious if it's good to have a minimal key travel on press since it's obviously not- ergonomic to type on a touch screen(your fingers can't rest on it either), but the bigger the key travel the more force should be used to push up your finger. I've read some ppl saying that greens actually helped them, so even if this sounds outrageous perhaps it should be tried.
This is a very good point.  I think it's why a buckling spring and maybe even topre feel is so easy on the hands.  He actually started typing on bs just like I did, but obviously his hands work differently than mine.