Simple Questions, Simple Answers (FAQ in the OP)

[CPTBadAss]

According to deskauthority, greens have a heavier actuation force than blacks. Is this just because greens are tactile? Or do they use a different spring?

Yes they have a different spring. And Greens are clicky.

Does anybody know if the topre caps on EK for red ESC and WASD are of good quality? I'm considering getting some, but I don't want cheap ABS caps

tjcaustin and demik both say they're the same caps as you would find on a RealForce.

what's the stiffest readily available spring? clears?

Easily available? Black or Korean weight springs from Sherry in 67g or 80g

Clears can take some finding. You can also grab 80g springs from Sherry which should work great.

already got clear springs thanks to ekw, and got offered some from mk and WFD

just wanted to know which is the heaviest and easiest to get. ill ask sherry for a 80g sample

Sounds good mang

[swill]

This is probably a stupid question, but why would I get a jumper instead of a diode in a cherry mx switch?  I could not find an answer to this in the OP.

[MKULTRA]

This is probably a stupid question, but why would I get a jumper instead of a diode in a cherry mx switch?  I could not find an answer to this in the OP.

Depends on the PCB.  I don't know of any newer boards besides maybe some Cherry ones that use in switch diodes.  In switch diodes only support up to 2KRO.

[swill]

This is probably a stupid question, but why would I get a jumper instead of a diode in a cherry mx switch?  I could not find an answer to this in the OP.

Depends on the PCB.  I don't know of any newer boards besides maybe some Cherry ones that use in switch diodes.  In switch diodes only support up to 2KRO.

So with a newer pcb, say something like Sprit's GB, I would not want diodes. In this case would I want jumpers or nothing at all?  If I want nothing at all, are jumpers easier to remove?  Thx...

[demik]

no no, sprit's pcb will need diodes. either ones you solder in yourself or ones that have been solder in already (which is most likely the case if he uses SMD)

[CPTBadAss]

I think it's just the jumpers that limit you to 2NKRO. Inswitch diodes or SMD diodes will give you 6NKRO or NKRO. I'm not 100% though.

[swill]

no no, sprit's pcb will need diodes. either ones you solder in yourself or ones that have been solder in already (which is most likely the case if he uses SMD)

So if he uses smd, would I want nothing in my switch?

[CPTBadAss]

no no, sprit's pcb will need diodes. either ones you solder in yourself or ones that have been solder in already (which is most likely the case if he uses SMD)

So if he uses smd, would I want nothing in my switch?

If he had SMDs pre-soldered on the PCB then you wouldn't need a diode or jumper in your switch.

[demik]

exactly, although some diodes (like the normal ones) don't always go inside the switch. sometimes they can be mounted on the bottom side of it or sometimes on the side of the switch. but the PCB has to be specifically made for that.

[dorkvader]

This is probably a stupid question, but why would I get a jumper instead of a diode in a cherry mx switch?  I could not find an answer to this in the OP.

Depends on the PCB.  I don't know of any newer boards besides maybe some Cherry ones that use in switch diodes.  In switch diodes only support up to 2KRO.

So with a newer pcb, say something like Sprit's GB, I would not want diodes. In this case would I want jumpers or nothing at all?  If I want nothing at all, are jumpers easier to remove?  Thx...

for PCB mount switches, the jumper helps to anchor the switch to the PCB. without it, you can lift the front edge a little. Many cherry KB's also used the jumper as an actual jumper, making their PCB design easier for 2KRO PCBs. the Dolch keyboard, for example, roughly 2/3 of the switches' jumpers are legitimately used. The rest only help to anchor the switch.

For sprit's PCB, I would recommend having either a plate or something in the switch (diode or jumper). Keep in mind that if you use a jumper, you will have to cut / repair traces. You can get by with nothing in the switch (I did this on my ergodox gamepad) but it won't be as secure as it could be. I don't think I'll have any issues, but be careful when pulling keycaps. Not only can the switch open, you can damage it.

So if you don't plan to use a plate, and the PCB suppors it, in-switch diodes are a good idea. They are also (from what I've found so far) about 10 times cheaper than SMD diodes.

[swill]

no no, sprit's pcb will need diodes. either ones you solder in yourself or ones that have been solder in already (which is most likely the case if he uses SMD)

So if he uses smd, would I want nothing in my switch?

If he had SMDs pre-soldered on the PCB then you wouldn't need a diode or jumper in your switch.

I think the combination of answers has given me what I am looking for.

Follow up question. Assuming smds are pre soldered on for the switch. If I wanted to add LEDs to his pcb, there would be separate holes with tracers that the LEDs would go in and I would have to add a resister for the led (assuming the led resister is not already an smd)?

I saw somewhere that low profile LEDs can sometimes replace the jumper or diode in some switch types. That would not be case here given what we know so far?

Thx everyone.

[demik]

there should be separate holes for LEDs if they pcb was made for it.  not sure about the resister as i am quite tech stupid

[CPTBadAss]

1) Assuming smds are pre soldered on for the switch. If I wanted to add LEDs to his pcb, there would be separate holes with tracers that the LEDs would go in

2) I would have to add a resistor for the led (assuming the led resister is not already an smd)?

3) I saw somewhere that low profile LEDs can sometimes replace the jumper or diode in some switch types. That would not be case here given what we know so far?

1) Yes, and its "traces". You're building a keyboard not a gun
2) Yes if there is no SMD resistor already on the PCB you'll have to add one. My KMAC and the Orbweaver already had resistors so I didn't have to add them.
3) No

[swill]

This is probably a stupid question, but why would I get a jumper instead of a diode in a cherry mx switch?  I could not find an answer to this in the OP.

Depends on the PCB.  I don't know of any newer boards besides maybe some Cherry ones that use in switch diodes.  In switch diodes only support up to 2KRO.

So with a newer pcb, say something like Sprit's GB, I would not want diodes. In this case would I want jumpers or nothing at all?  If I want nothing at all, are jumpers easier to remove?  Thx...

for PCB mount switches, the jumper helps to anchor the switch to the PCB. without it, you can lift the front edge a little. Many cherry KB's also used the jumper as an actual jumper, making their PCB design easier for 2KRO PCBs. the Dolch keyboard, for example, roughly 2/3 of the switches' jumpers are legitimately used. The rest only help to anchor the switch.

For sprit's PCB, I would recommend having either a plate or something in the switch (diode or jumper). Keep in mind that if you use a jumper, you will have to cut / repair traces. You can get by with nothing in the switch (I did this on my ergodox gamepad) but it won't be as secure as it could be. I don't think I'll have any issues, but be careful when pulling keycaps. Not only can the switch open, you can damage it.

So if you don't plan to use a plate, and the PCB suppors it, in-switch diodes are a good idea. They are also (from what I've found so far) about 10 times cheaper than SMD diodes.

Great, thanks for the additional information.  I was still undecided about the plate, but I was leaning towards it (since it should have cutouts).  It makes a lot of sense that you would want the diode for a PCB mounted switch. 

One final question to really drive things home for me.  Assuming his PCB has smds (for the diodes) and I want to do a PCB mounted switch.  would I be able to use a switch with a diode and just unsolder the smd?  That would assume that his PCB would support either an in switch diode OR an SMD diode (which I am not sure if we know yet).

In one of his posts he recommended using PCB mounted switches because he is doing a thicker PCB (1.6 vs 1.2 mm I think).  I kind of assumed that the in switch diode would be possible in order to balance the switch (as you point out).

[swill]

1) Assuming smds are pre soldered on for the switch. If I wanted to add LEDs to his pcb, there would be separate holes with tracers that the LEDs would go in

2) I would have to add a resistor for the led (assuming the led resister is not already an smd)?

3) I saw somewhere that low profile LEDs can sometimes replace the jumper or diode in some switch types. That would not be case here given what we know so far?

1) Yes, and its "traces". You're building a keyboard not a gun
2) Yes if there is no SMD resistor already on the PCB you'll have to add one. My KMAC and the Orbweaver already had resistors so I didn't have to add them.
3) No

Damn the iPhone and it changing real words for other words... 

Thanks for the answers.  Think I got this now... 

[dorkvader]

One final question to really drive things home for me.  Assuming his PCB has smds (for the diodes) and I want to do a PCB mounted switch.  would I be able to use a switch with a diode and just unsolder the smd?  That would assume that his PCB would support either an in switch diode OR an SMD diode (which I am not sure if we know yet).

In one of his posts he recommended using PCB mounted switches because he is doing a thicker PCB (1.6 vs 1.2 mm I think).  I kind of assumed that the in switch diode would be possible in order to balance the switch (as you point out).

Well if the PCB has SMD diodes on it, and you have switches with through hole diodes, you could desolder the SMD and it should work. I think it's not needed, as two diodes in parallel are basically the same as one for this application (they can handle more current but that's not a problem or concern here).

Most PCB's that support smd diodes support both. The KMAC does, for example.

Also, I forgot to mention: if you are putting LED's in your switch, they will stabilize it nicely as well as a diode. I am almost positive all sprit's PCB's support LED's (He asked about led resistors earlier, and the mockup / testing ones have leds) so you can just keep the onboard smd diodes, and add leds to the switches. If you don't want your kb backlit, you can turn the leds off using the firmware. I think this is the best solution.

[phoenix1234]

Recently, I just purchased a used Cherry G80-11800:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_G80-11800

However, I realized that the right shift is 2.0 instead of 1.75 like Cherry G80-1800.

Indeed, the walk around would be removing stabilizers and replacing with 1.75 shift from tsangan kit but it is still not perfect.

It would be great if anyone can help me to find RGB set to fit that awkward 2.0 shift
(it is 2 units wide and has stabilizers)

[dorkvader]

yeah it's a little wider, I think cherry did that on all their rackmount-capable keybaord-with-input-device keyboards.

I don't know of any RGB kits that exist that have that size, but you can get a blank key from SP pretty cheaply, though it won't match the profile. I don't know if GMK does single sales of blanks (or if they even make that size/profile) but you could maybe contact them.

[Dreamre]

Has anyone every damaged solder pads when desoldering? If you did, how did you fix the problem?

[kolonelkadat]

Has anyone every damaged solder pads when desoldering? If you did, how did you fix the problem?

If you lift a pad without breaking it, you can usually just put a big glob of solder. and it wont even be noticeable.

If the pad is removed completely, you will need to scrape some of the solder mask from the trace and solder to that. You will probably need to use a very fine wire to avoid shorting to adjacent traces. I suggest the wire from small electric motors with an acid flux to burn away the enamel coat on the wire.

[Dreamre]

Has anyone every damaged solder pads when desoldering? If you did, how did you fix the problem?

If you lift a pad without breaking it, you can usually just put a big glob of solder. and it wont even be noticeable.

If the pad is removed completely, you will need to scrape some of the solder mask from the trace and solder to that. You will probably need to use a very fine wire to avoid shorting to adjacent traces. I suggest the wire from small electric motors with an acid flux to burn away the enamel coat on the wire.

Thanks for the quick reply! What happens if half of it is gone? Would I need to do what you recommended?

[nubbinator]

The easiest way is to map the traces and bridge the broken pad/trace with a piece of wire. 

[dorkvader]

The easiest way is to map the traces and bridge the broken pad/trace with a piece of wire. 

Agreed. This is what I do and it works well. I've found that it's easy to damage pads on a single layer PCB, though the G80-8200 I pulled switches out of earlier today had no damage.

My poor QFR has had some serious trace repairs and is almost more wire than PCB under there. It still work great, though.

[stancato9]

Does anyone know what the difference between the "limited" and non limited springs from originative are? Thanks guys!

[CPTBadAss]

Does anyone know what the difference between the "limited" and non limited springs from originative are? Thanks guys!

Limited springs are tested beforehand. I can't find the thing on Originativeco.com that explains it...but that's the gist of the message that was on the site before.

[stancato9]

Does anyone know what the difference between the "limited" and non limited springs from originative are? Thanks guys!

Limited springs are tested beforehand. I can't find the thing on Originativeco.com that explains it...but that's the gist of the message that was on the site before.

Okay thanks. I couldn't find anything on the site about it. I will go with the limited. Might as well for a $2 difference.  )

[nubbinator]

Agreed. This is what I do and it works well. I've found that it's easy to damage pads on a single layer PCB, though the G80-8200 I pulled switches out of earlier today had no damage.

My poor QFR has had some serious trace repairs and is almost more wire than PCB under there. It still work great, though.

It's what I had to do in two places on the "broken" RK9000 I got off of someone.  It's so much easier than carefully exposing the trace and hoping you don't lift the trace when you flow solder to it.

Does anyone know what the difference between the "limited" and non limited springs from originative are? Thanks guys!

I believe it's just he can continue to get supplies in some weights while other springs are from limited runs.  I know the awesome 67g springs were a limited run for a Korean GB.

[stancato9]

Agreed. This is what I do and it works well. I've found that it's easy to damage pads on a single layer PCB, though the G80-8200 I pulled switches out of earlier today had no damage.

My poor QFR has had some serious trace repairs and is almost more wire than PCB under there. It still work great, though.

It's what I had to do in two places on the "broken" RK9000 I got off of someone.  It's so much easier than carefully exposing the trace and hoping you don't lift the trace when you flow solder to it.

Does anyone know what the difference between the "limited" and non limited springs from originative are? Thanks guys!

I believe it's just he can continue to get supplies in some weights while other springs are from limited runs.  I know the awesome 67g springs were a limited run for a Korean GB.

He just emailed me this:

There's not much of a huge difference.  I ordered the Limited Springs from a different manufacturer except that they were more tested until it was "perfect" for the users/enthusiasts.

[phoenix1234]

yeah it's a little wider, I think cherry did that on all their rackmount-capable keybaord-with-input-device keyboards.

I don't know of any RGB kits that exist that have that size, but you can get a blank key from SP pretty cheaply, though it won't match the profile. I don't know if GMK does single sales of blanks (or if they even make that size/profile) but you could maybe contact them.

Well noted with thanks.
I will try to find some blank keys from SP.

[stancato9]

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

[SpAmRaY]

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

It's all personal preference, get both and see which you like best and then sell the springs you don't need.

[jdcarpe]

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

Have you tried stock clears? I like them better than ergos.

Also, 65g Blacks!

[Melvang]

Lubed ergo clears are BUTTER.

[swill]

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

If they have different actuation forces then it means that one of the springs is 62g on the normal Cherry scale and the other is 62g on the Korean scale.

The normal Cherry scale rates the springs for the actuation point.  So a 62g spring will be 62g at the actuation point and then get heavier as you get to the bottom.

The Korean scale rates the springs at the bottom out point, so those springs would be 62g at full depression (so less than that at the actuation point). 

If they are both 62g springs and have different actuation pressures, then the Korean rated springs will be lighter...

[SpAmRaY]

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

Have you tried stock clears? I like them better than ergos.

Also, 65g Blacks!

Stock clears FTW!

[stancato9]

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

Have you tried stock clears? I like them better than ergos.

Also, 65g Blacks!

Nope, never tried clears. I'm gong to be grabbing a pack next month most likely. Is 65g lighter than the stock black?

I'm still a little confused guys. Sheraton is telling me that the 62g limited and 62g normal have different actuation force. Which should I go with for ergo clears?

If they have different actuation forces then it means that one of the springs is 62g on the normal Cherry scale and the other is 62g on the Korean scale.

The normal Cherry scale rates the springs for the actuation point.  So a 62g spring will be 62g at the actuation point and then get heavier as you get to the bottom.

The Korean scale rates the springs at the bottom out point, so those springs would be 62g at full depression (so less than that at the actuation point). 

If they are both 62g springs and have different actuation pressures, then the Korean rated springs will be lighter...

How do you know that? Sheraton simply told me that the limited springs were ordered from a different manufacturer and were more "tested until perfect for users/entusiasts," but then proceeded to tell me to try normal 65g springs so I am quite confused.

I'm trying to figure out which one is closer to the quintessential 62g spring. I would just like to know the difference between the two. Perhaps one is like the golden springs which are actually stiffer? This info is no where.

I am already having to buy 62g and 65g. I can't buy the "limited" version of each too unfortunately. Has anyone used both the limited and non-limited springs from originative? Thanks!

[BlueBär]

I am already having to buy 62g and 65g. I can't buy the "limited" version of each too unfortunately. Has anyone used both the limited and non-limited springs from originative? Thanks!

I have limited 67g and non-limited 65g and 62g. They feel like they should: 67g>65g>62g. To be honest, I think the "limited" is a bit for marketing purposes (if the limiteds were tested that shouldn't make a huge difference). Both will work well and will be just a tad heavier than the normal Brown/Red/Blue springs, don't worry about it too much. I even doubt you would feel a difference between limited and non-limited. The limited ones are not gold and have the same color as the non-limited ones.

[stancato9]

I am already having to buy 62g and 65g. I can't buy the "limited" version of each too unfortunately. Has anyone used both the limited and non-limited springs from originative? Thanks!

I have limited 67g and non-limited 65g and 62g. They feel like they should: 67g>65g>62g. To be honest, I think the "limited" is a bit for marketing purposes (if the limiteds were tested that shouldn't make a huge difference). Both will work well and will be just a tad heavier than the normal Brown/Red/Blue springs, don't worry about it too much. I even doubt you would feel a difference between limited and non-limited. The limited ones are not gold and have the same color as the non-limited ones.

Okay thanks! I thought that maybe the limited were more stiff just like how some people describe 62g gold springs to be closer to 65g or 67g but I guess not Thanks again.

[swill]

Can you tell the difference between diffused or water clear LEDs when installed on a keyboard?  If so, are there advantages to one or the other?

[swill]

Yeah it should matter, the direction determines the polarity. One end should have a line, the other end doesn't. The side with the line is positive or the anode on SMD. Check out the picture (Borrowed from Head-Fi) below for some examples Dai Lo.

Show Image

On PCBs, they often have little diagrams showing you which end is positive. For example, my KMAC has this:

Show Image

So you just match the lines up.

And if you have just regular diodes, they'll line up like this (Props to Sifo for the pic):

Show Image

And I'm linking this picture just for more info on plain/non-SMD diodes. Picture found here.

Show Image

Reading this, I am slightly confused...  Do regular diodes and SMD diodes have different meanings for the stripe on one side. 

This specifies that on SMD diodes, the line specifies Positive (+)...

Yeah it should matter, the direction determines the polarity. One end should have a line, the other end doesn't. The side with the line is positive or the anode on SMD. Check out the picture (Borrowed from Head-Fi) below for some examples Dai Lo.

Show Image

However, this diagram when referring to through hole diodes specify that the line represents the Negative (-) side.

Show Image

Is everything I have said correct?

[CPTBadAss]

Yeah it should matter, the direction determines the polarity. One end should have a line, the other end doesn't. The side with the line is positive or the anode on SMD. Check out the picture (Borrowed from Head-Fi) below for some examples Dai Lo.

Show Image

On PCBs, they often have little diagrams showing you which end is positive. For example, my KMAC has this:

Show Image

So you just match the lines up.

And if you have just regular diodes, they'll line up like this (Props to Sifo for the pic):

Show Image

And I'm linking this picture just for more info on plain/non-SMD diodes. Picture found here.

Show Image

Reading this, I am slightly confused...  Do regular diodes and SMD diodes have different meanings for the stripe on one side. 

This specifies that on SMD diodes, the line specifies Positive (+)...

Yeah it should matter, the direction determines the polarity. One end should have a line, the other end doesn't. The side with the line is positive or the anode on SMD. Check out the picture (Borrowed from Head-Fi) below for some examples Dai Lo.

Show Image

However, this diagram when referring to through hole diodes specify that the line represents the Negative (-) side.

Show Image

Is everything I have said correct?

swill, I just double checked with mistakemistake, the second diagram I linked is misleading. The line indicates the cathode. I'll edit the post now.

I'm actually a little confused. Let me check with someone else.

Ok, so it should be thought of in terms of electrical current flow and not positive/negative. The cathode is where the current flow out of the diode and the anode is where the current flows in. The line indicates where the cathode is. I'm going to edit the post now. Does that make more sense?

Further reading on Wikpedia shows that the cathode is negative on a diode but the cathode is not always negative.

[limmy]

I am looking for a particular illustration that describes differences of Cherry MX switches.

1. It is created by a Chinese.
2. It involves pictures of penetration (different shapes of slides and etc)

I thought it was hilarious and want to see it again, but I cannot seem to find it.

Thanks!

[stancato9]

I am looking for a particular illustration that describes differences of Cherry MX switches.

1. It is created by a Chinese.
2. It involves pictures of penetration (different shapes of slides and etc)

I thought it was hilarious and want to see it again, but I cannot seem to find it.

Thanks!

u wot m8

[CPTBadAss]

I am looking for a particular illustration that describes differences of Cherry MX switches.

1. It is created by a Chinese.
2. It involves pictures of penetration (different shapes of slides and etc)

I thought it was hilarious and want to see it again, but I cannot seem to find it.

Thanks!

This isn't Google image search. Please don't ask for "funny pictures" here.

[kmiller8]

I am looking for a particular illustration that describes differences of Cherry MX switches.

1. It is created by a Chinese.
2. It involves pictures of penetration (different shapes of slides and etc)

I thought it was hilarious and want to see it again, but I cannot seem to find it.

Thanks!

This isn't Google image search. Please don't ask for "funny pictures" here.

wow. such buzzkill

edit: such inability to quote properly, wow.

[limmy]

It was informative funny picture... though.

Thanks for the response!

[swill]

Yeah it should matter, the direction determines the polarity. One end should have a line, the other end doesn't. The side with the line is positive or the anode on SMD. Check out the picture (Borrowed from Head-Fi) below for some examples Dai Lo.

Show Image

On PCBs, they often have little diagrams showing you which end is positive. For example, my KMAC has this:

Show Image

So you just match the lines up.

And if you have just regular diodes, they'll line up like this (Props to Sifo for the pic):

Show Image

And I'm linking this picture just for more info on plain/non-SMD diodes. Picture found here.

Show Image

Reading this, I am slightly confused...  Do regular diodes and SMD diodes have different meanings for the stripe on one side. 

This specifies that on SMD diodes, the line specifies Positive (+)...

Yeah it should matter, the direction determines the polarity. One end should have a line, the other end doesn't. The side with the line is positive or the anode on SMD. Check out the picture (Borrowed from Head-Fi) below for some examples Dai Lo.

Show Image

However, this diagram when referring to through hole diodes specify that the line represents the Negative (-) side.

Show Image

Is everything I have said correct?

swill, I just double checked with mistakemistake, the second diagram I linked is misleading. The line indicates the cathode. I'll edit the post now.

I'm actually a little confused. Let me check with someone else.

Ok, so it should be thought of in terms of electrical current flow and not positive/negative. The cathode is where the current flow out of the diode and the anode is where the current flows in. The line indicates where the cathode is. I'm going to edit the post now. Does that make more sense?

Further reading on Wikpedia shows that the cathode is negative on a diode but the cathode is not always negative.

Ahh, ya that is a bit confusing at face value.  I understand why you have to look at it from the 'current' perspective though.  This line is what really drove home why it is confusing.

In a device which consumes power, the cathode is negative, and in a device which provides power, the cathode is positive

Thank you for helping clear up my misunderstanding of this.

[kolonelkadat]

My spacebar is approximately 125-130mm long at the base. ~115-120mm at the top. (id be precise but my calipers have no battery atm).
What is this in terms of X? is it 6.2X?

How many mm in an X? and do I measure from the top or the bottom of the key?

[Melvang]

My spacebar is approximately 125-130mm long at the base. ~115-120mm at the top. (id be precise but my calipers have no battery atm).
What is this in terms of X? is it 6.2X?

How many mm in an X? and do I measure from the top or the bottom of the key?

Always measure from the bottom.  I think different profiles are a touch different in width but close enough that calipers are about the only way you will see it.  I do know that 1x keys in SP DCS profile are .715 inches.  So that would be around 18.161mm.  Hope this helps

[kolonelkadat]

Indeed it does. Thanks melvang.