Author Topic: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."  (Read 8008 times)

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Offline ander

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"Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:23:28 »
Is it just me, or anyone else?

When I see a keyboard ad where the switches are "rated for" tens of millions of keypresses, I can't help thinking: How could any company ever back that up? Does anyone buy a keyboard and use it so much that they actually end up pressing any of its keys 30 or 50 million times? And even if they did, how on earth would they know? Would they count how many times they pressed them?

I'm guessing that most original purchasers are long gone before they manage to press any particular switches anywhere near that many times. Should we keep notes taped to the bottom of our KBs with our most recent keypress counts, so subsequent users can resume counting to be sure that switch-makers' claims are legitimate?

LOL. Honestly, what could such claims possibly mean in real life?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:34:14 »
Is it just me, or anyone else?

When I see a keyboard ad where the switches are "rated for" tens of millions of keypresses, I can't help thinking: How could any company ever back that up? Does anyone buy a keyboard and use it so much that they actually end up pressing any of its keys 30 or 50 million times? And even if they did, how on earth would they know? Would they count how many times they pressed them?

I'm guessing that most original purchasers are long gone before they manage to press any particular switches anywhere near that many times. Should we keep notes taped to the bottom of our KBs with our most recent keypress counts, so subsequent users can resume counting to be sure that switch-makers' claims are legitimate?

LOL. Honestly, what could such claims possibly mean in real life?


They have a machine that will press down on the switch that many times, or as many times as it takes to break the switch. They then round it up to a nice easy number and make sure that there failure rate is easily beyond that so they can advertise it. It's called marketing and it's part of every products design phase...

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:35:03 »
They actually have a machine that test it tho

Offline Cindori

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:37:51 »


@ 4.05

« Last Edit: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:40:49 by Cindori »

Offline stoic-lemon

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:38:57 »
Is it just me, or anyone else?

When I see a keyboard ad where the switches are "rated for" tens of millions of keypresses, I can't help thinking: How could any company ever back that up? Does anyone buy a keyboard and use it so much that they actually end up pressing any of its keys 30 or 50 million times? And even if they did, how on earth would they know? Would they count how many times they pressed them?

I'm guessing that most original purchasers are long gone before they manage to press any particular switches anywhere near that many times. Should we keep notes taped to the bottom of our KBs with our most recent keypress counts, so subsequent users can resume counting to be sure that switch-makers' claims are legitimate?

LOL. Honestly, what could such claims possibly mean in real life?


They have a machine that will press down on the switch that many times, or as many times as it takes to break the switch. They then round it up to a nice easy number and make sure that there failure rate is easily beyond that so they can advertise it. It's called marketing and it's part of every products design phase...

I think he means how would I as user know that I have reached this limit.

The point is that it is such a massive number it inspires confidence that we will have well and truly got our money's worth by the time we notice the switches starting to wear.

Offline baldgye

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:47:10 »
Is it just me, or anyone else?

When I see a keyboard ad where the switches are "rated for" tens of millions of keypresses, I can't help thinking: How could any company ever back that up? Does anyone buy a keyboard and use it so much that they actually end up pressing any of its keys 30 or 50 million times? And even if they did, how on earth would they know? Would they count how many times they pressed them?

I'm guessing that most original purchasers are long gone before they manage to press any particular switches anywhere near that many times. Should we keep notes taped to the bottom of our KBs with our most recent keypress counts, so subsequent users can resume counting to be sure that switch-makers' claims are legitimate?

LOL. Honestly, what could such claims possibly mean in real life?


They have a machine that will press down on the switch that many times, or as many times as it takes to break the switch. They then round it up to a nice easy number and make sure that there failure rate is easily beyond that so they can advertise it. It's called marketing and it's part of every products design phase...

I think he means how would I as user know that I have reached this limit.

The point is that it is such a massive number it inspires confidence that we will have well and truly got our money's worth by the time we notice the switches starting to wear.

You wouldn't, it's a tolerance. You don't have a 100m water proof watch with a depth counter on it so you know exactly when your watch will fail...

Offline xondat

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 06:59:17 »
Is it just me, or anyone else?

When I see a keyboard ad where the switches are "rated for" tens of millions of keypresses, I can't help thinking: How could any company ever back that up? Does anyone buy a keyboard and use it so much that they actually end up pressing any of its keys 30 or 50 million times? And even if they did, how on earth would they know? Would they count how many times they pressed them?

I'm guessing that most original purchasers are long gone before they manage to press any particular switches anywhere near that many times. Should we keep notes taped to the bottom of our KBs with our most recent keypress counts, so subsequent users can resume counting to be sure that switch-makers' claims are legitimate?

LOL. Honestly, what could such claims possibly mean in real life?


In my opinion it's to pull new customers, not a crowd like us. But as mentioned before they have a machine and it presses down and counts one and then they round it to a nice figure instead of 30,583,123 etc.

Offline davkol

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 09:50:59 »
Machine testing + statistics.

BTW don't forget, that manufacturers have other kinds of customers too. For example, I've seen Elcom keypads with Cherry MX Black switches at counters in a local supermarket… That's 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 10:11:24 »
Is it just me, or anyone else?

When I see a keyboard ad where the switches are "rated for" tens of millions of keypresses, I can't help thinking: How could any company ever back that up? Does anyone buy a keyboard and use it so much that they actually end up pressing any of its keys 30 or 50 million times? And even if they did, how on earth would they know? Would they count how many times they pressed them?

I'm guessing that most original purchasers are long gone before they manage to press any particular switches anywhere near that many times. Should we keep notes taped to the bottom of our KBs with our most recent keypress counts, so subsequent users can resume counting to be sure that switch-makers' claims are legitimate?

LOL. Honestly, what could such claims possibly mean in real life?

Marketing.

Like when the little boy asks the owl, "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?"
The owl just licks it twice and bites into it 1-2-3!

Marketing does wonders. 

The real question is: "How long is the warranty?"

Some things last 2 days, others 30 years.

Offline Jixr

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 11:54:22 »
just a spec number.

I've been running whatpulse on my work computer for about a year and half, and i'm only at about 6million keypresses, and thats total, most key is at 600,000 presses

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 12:19:11 »
These ratings are bull, pure and simple.

Yes, some companies have a machine that tests the switches (others don't, and just copy the number from another company that makes similar switches, or even just make something up out of nowhere), but the test conducted by this machine does not reflect real-world usage, where switches are a) subjected to a wide variety of different levels of force, b) subjected to force coming from a variety of different angles, c) sometimes held down for prolonged periods, and not always with the minimum amount of force or a force that is perfectly centered, d) subject to incursion by a wide variety of kinds of debris, vapor, liquids, etc. over a long period of time, and then used, and e) have endured the strains of being installed into a keyboard, soldered in place, re-soldered in case of defects or repairs, having keycaps changed, etc. Also, if the test is done on a lone switch, it does not capture points of failure that occur between the switch and the rest of the keyboard-- for instance, if the switch's design places undue stress on the point where the switch is soldered to the PCB.

Next, the actuation number does not capture changes in the quality of the switch over time due to improvements or degradations of the manufacturing process, unless the switch is re-tested. If a manufacturer's quality declines, they won't re-test the switch to reflect this change. How old do you think Cherry's numbers are at this point?

Finally, the number seems to be subject to a lot of manipulation. For example, there was a time when MX switches other than MX Black were rated at only 20 million keypresses; only MX Black was rated for the full 50 million. You can still see these numbers occasionally from companies that have been copy-pasting their marketing materials for a long time. As far as I have been able to identify, no change to the design or manufacturing of the other switches was made when Cherry decided to rate them at 50 million. It's as if they simply decided that their test of MX Black switches was actually a test of "the MX switch" and so all MX switches would thereafter carry that rating.

The real question is: "How long is the warranty?"

Unfortunately, this doesn't help either, since warranties vary not only by length but also in terms of how easy they are to take advantage of, and how much of the purchase price will go towards covering it. Any company can offer a super-long warranty so long as they make it so hard to use, or so expensive to use due to non-covered shipping costs, that people with problems are generally rejected or just made to give up. Alternatively, they can just mark up the product enough to cover a longer warranty.

Case in point: tT eSports Poseidon Z models carry a longer warranty than their Cherry switch models. But do you really think that they last longer?
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Offline Oobly

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 08 December 2015, 14:49:31 »
Cherry's numbers are trustworthy. They use a machine to test switches to many millions of presses and average out a value where there is a difference in feel and / or operation (where the actuation point has shifted for instance), not failure. Then they round it DOWN. MX switches are rated to 50 million presses before any noticable difference in feel or operation. They'll most likely last another bunch of millions of presses before actual failure. ML are rated to 20 million through the same process. They rated the other switch types to 20 million as a conservative figure until they had enough testing data to get confirmation that they'd last the same as the Blacks. When they did, they updated the figures.

Can't speak for the other brands that quote these kinds of figures, but I suspect they're not as rigorous with testing and their figures may well just be hot air.
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Offline ander

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 11 December 2015, 07:28:00 »
I'm glad I started a thread so many people found interesting.

Cherry's numbers are trustworthy. They use a machine to test switches to many millions of presses...

Sure, but so what? Do you know how long it'd take to type 50 million characters?

Let's say you type a steady 65 words per minute. (I know some of you type much faster—but considering the average person types around 40 wpm, that's not so bad.) Words per minute is determined by characters per minute divided by 5, so you'd be typing about 325 characters per minute (5 * 65), or 19,500 characters per hour (325 * 60).

If you typed a total of 4 hours per day, you'd be typing 78,000 characters per day. So to type 50,000,000 characters, you'd have to type for... Let's see... 641 days, which equals 1.7561 years.

Aha, so it's not that long after all. Okay, then, guys—start counting those keypresses!  :?)
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 11 December 2015, 08:10:22 »
The number of presses is per switch, right? As opposed to per keyboard (~100x the per switch rate, although distributed very unevenly).

It seems to me that there would be an order of magnitude difference in wear and tear between a light typist who presses straight down and the heavy hitter who consistently strikes off-center and at an angle.
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Offline Vittra

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 11 December 2015, 08:32:23 »
Machine testing + statistics.

BTW don't forget, that manufacturers have other kinds of customers too. For example, I've seen Elcom keypads with Cherry MX Black switches at counters in a local supermarket… That's 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Just to expand upon this - by statistics what's being referred to is MTBF, which you have likely seen mentioned on a mechanical or electronic component at some time or another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures
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Offline Oobly

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 11 December 2015, 08:48:04 »
Well, technically, the spacebar switch should wear out first since it's the most used one (17.46% statistically).

So using your numbers, you'd press it roughly 13,600 times a day. That's around 3671 days to hit 50 million, so about ten years of 4 hours per day typing, every single day. It'd probably feel a little different by then, but still not have failed. So yes, genuine MX switches should last a "lifetime".

Some better rubber domes are rated to 15 million presses and rubber domes DO fail with a number of years on them due to both rubber degradation and wear (and membrane failure, etc). So it is significant in the sense that it provides peace of mind that your board shouldn't fail through wear for many, many years. So it's not just "marketing BS". It also happens to be true. Nothing wrong with using actual figures to show the durability of your products, but they should really include links to the test data to add more credibility.

Machine testing + statistics.

BTW don't forget, that manufacturers have other kinds of customers too. For example, I've seen Elcom keypads with Cherry MX Black switches at counters in a local supermarket… That's 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Just to expand upon this - by statistics what's being referred to is MTBF, which you have likely seen mentioned on a mechanical or electronic component at some time or another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_time_between_failures


Technically, Cherry don't use MTBF since they don't test all the way to failure, just to the point it goes out of tolerance for specified actuation force or position. And they estimate downwards to give some margin, so they can guarantee 50 million presses before going out of spec. I don't know how many times you'd have to press an MX switch before it fails, but it will be a lot more than 50 million.
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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 13 December 2015, 11:16:40 »
Every manufacturer of a product has some sort of MTBF for their part, regardless if this information is made public or not.  Even auto manufacturers do it, but the information is just internal to the engineering department.  Now, an MTBF number can be either a best case scenario, a real-life scenario or somewhere in between, which can skew the numbers.

But even with a high MTBF number, like the 1 million hours 100% duty cycle MTBF quoted for Western Digital's RE4 series of enterprise hard drives, you can still have failures.  We had an RE4 drive fail just a few months after installation.  The same can be applied to keyboard switches.

Offline davkol

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 13 December 2015, 14:54:44 »
Oobly, I believe there were two numbers—for mechanical *and* electrical cycles—last time I checked.

Offline SamirD

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 13 December 2015, 21:19:36 »
And that would make sense since the MTBF may be different for each.

Offline jaffers

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 14 December 2015, 03:35:40 »
These ratings are bull, pure and simple.

Yes, some companies have a machine that tests the switches (others don't, and just copy the number from another company that makes similar switches, or even just make something up out of nowhere), but the test conducted by this machine does not reflect real-world usage, where switches are a) subjected to a wide variety of different levels of force, b) subjected to force coming from a variety of different angles, c) sometimes held down for prolonged periods, and not always with the minimum amount of force or a force that is perfectly centered, d) subject to incursion by a wide variety of kinds of debris, vapor, liquids, etc. over a long period of time, and then used, and e) have endured the strains of being installed into a keyboard, soldered in place, re-soldered in case of defects or repairs, having keycaps changed, etc. Also, if the test is done on a lone switch, it does not capture points of failure that occur between the switch and the rest of the keyboard-- for instance, if the switch's design places undue stress on the point where the switch is soldered to the PCB.

Cherry have this big ass machine that really hammers the **** out of the switch and they put it in an oven and in a freezer thing and all sorts of stuff. I'm pretty sure they are fine, they are also a very simple mechanism so you can run maths on it to get predictions on how they will fair. For example, other companies like GE have a super super high powered sand blasting machine that can effectively simulate the effects of a desert's sand and wind over a 20 year period in seconds. And they can use this to test paints, materials and all sorts of other stuff.

On top of that consumer watch dog will eat you for breakfast if you make a claim like this and don't submit a ton of data

Offline ideus

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 16 December 2015, 09:15:24 »
Regarding the original question on how a company could back that up, the answer is with an accelerated reliability test, whose results will be extrapolated to "real life" equivalent in terms on time, based on an average user time per day, month or year. The main goal is to estimate the safe time to offer the buyer a warranty period without incurring in high maintenance costs.


Such reliability results are used for marketing some times. If that makes sense or not, is a totally different issue.

Offline ander

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 28 December 2015, 04:05:58 »
The number of presses is per switch, right? As opposed to per keyboard (~100x the per switch rate, although distributed very unevenly).

Ah. Right. Okay, then, guys, stop counting the keypresses.
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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 28 December 2015, 04:14:33 »
The number of presses is per switch, right? As opposed to per keyboard (~100x the per switch rate, although distributed very unevenly).

Ah. Right. Okay, then, guys, stop counting the keypresses.


Some people will still count them.
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Offline Altis

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 29 December 2015, 00:48:53 »
I'd say that more than anything, they're just advertising what has been successfully tested to give you an idea of the kind of life they expect from the switches.
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Offline crj3012

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 30 December 2015, 13:38:07 »


@ 4.05

That's one cool ass video. Thanks for posting.

Offline jcoffin1981

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 30 December 2015, 22:30:49 »
I think that the majority of this is marketing.  I don't doubt that they have machines that press the keys millions of times, but the one thing they cannot simulate is time.  It may take 5-10 years before that amount of key presses is reached and the elements such as temperature, air, humidity, and many other factors are going to play a role in this as well.

A manufacturer can make any claim they like and there is really no way to verify the validity.  So to choose one because one is rated for 30 million key presses and the other is 50 million key presses is silly imho.
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Offline ideus

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 07:01:15 »
I think that the majority of this is marketing.  I don't doubt that they have machines that press the keys millions of times, but the one thing they cannot simulate is time.  It may take 5-10 years before that amount of key presses is reached and the elements such as temperature, air, humidity, and many other factors are going to play a role in this as well.

A manufacturer can make any claim they like and there is really no way to verify the validity.  So to choose one because one is rated for 30 million key presses and the other is 50 million key presses is silly imho.


No keyboard aficionado is choosing a particular MX switch on the claim of its longevity, even general public is, this is just something they have decided to use in some advertising, that I doubt may have any effect on sales.

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Re: "Rated for [x] million keypresses..."
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 31 December 2015, 08:56:16 »
I think that the majority of this is marketing.  I don't doubt that they have machines that press the keys millions of times, but the one thing they cannot simulate is time.  It may take 5-10 years before that amount of key presses is reached and the elements such as temperature, air, humidity, and many other factors are going to play a role in this as well.

A manufacturer can make any claim they like and there is really no way to verify the validity.  So to choose one because one is rated for 30 million key presses and the other is 50 million key presses is silly imho.


No keyboard aficionado is choosing a particular MX switch on the claim of its longevity, even general public is, this is just something they have decided to use in some advertising, that I doubt may have any effect on sales.
I agree that no keyboard aficionado is buying based on this, but a lot of their industrial/commercial customers most definitely are looking at the mtbf of the switches as an indication of how often they would need to be replace.  We would go through rubber domes every few years on our hotel property management systems, but we never switched to mechs as the rubber domes were a plenty.