Realforce...

[fuzzybaffy]

So... what I was going to say earlier was... tp4tissue alluded to problems with the loose tops on Topre boards. This is like complaining that a Ferrari doesn't have enough storage space. People don't give a **** if Ferraris don't have storage space. They're known for other things, like, their engines for example. In the same way, Topre is known for other things, such as the quality of their switches, their build, and their keycaps, that make it worth it for a lot of people. A loose top on a Topre board is not a big deal when all things are considered.

In the same way, lack of storage space isn't that much of a big deal for Ferrari's, when you consider their engines are much more powerful than Camry's.

[tp4tissue]

So... what I was going to say earlier was... tp4tissue alluded to problems with the loose tops on Topre boards. This is like complaining that a Ferrari doesn't have enough storage space. People don't give a **** if Ferraris don't have storage space. They're known for other things, like, their engines for example. In the same way, Topre is known for other things, such as the quality of their switches, their build, and their keycaps, that make it worth it for a lot of people. A loose top on a Topre board is not a big deal when all things are considered.

In the same way, lack of storage space isn't that much of a big deal for Ferrari's, when you consider their engines are much more powerful than Camry's.

the "case" is very important for the stable feel of the switches.

I've only recently come to realize this after having finally acquired an aluminum case.. the keyboard pcb reverberations are almost completely gone.

A loose case would contribute heavily to the bouncy wobbly feel which many topre users have reported..

rigidity is tantamount..   For $300 I would've expected that it comes with, however, this is only one of many problems where Topre has not measured up to "expectations"

[fuzzybaffy]

That doesn't make any sense, though, because it's just the top that's loose. How does that affect the PCB of the case? It's bound to the bottom.

And how does a loose top affect the switches, when the switches are mounted on the bottom? The top doesn't do anything for rigidity.

And, I've had no problems with wobble on my keys. They are certainly less wobbly than any Cherry MX based board I've owned.

[daerid]

Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...   

However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.

The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.

[...]this is only one of many problems where Topre has not measured up to "expectations"

your expectations.

My newest 55g RF has a rock solid case, and no wobbly keys

[fuzzybaffy]

Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...   

However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.

The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.

Yea. There is a big difference between just stating one's opinions, and disregarding and invalidating other people's opinions. Tp4tissue does the latter. The problem we have with him is, whenever someone says they have a positive experience with Topre boards, he literally says "no you don't!" Which... is kind of disrespectful, quite frankly.

[tp4tissue]

That doesn't make any sense, though, because it's just the top that's loose. How does that affect the PCB of the case? It's bound to the bottom.

And how does a loose top affect the switches, when the switches are mounted on the bottom? The top doesn't do anything for rigidity.

And, I've had no problems with wobble on my keys. They are certainly less wobbly than any Cherry MX based board I've owned.

The top makes A huge difference.... the reason a Convertible is always poor in the corners compared to their Coupe versions.. Have you at least seen top gear?

A rigid top and a rigid bottom,, TIGHTLY sandwiching the middle plate, is what keeps the board steady.

This is far more important in the plastic shelled keyboards, because plastic has alot of flex.. without enough tension exerted by the Top-cover, the bottom will be wobbly.

do some learning before you post about things you have not begun to comprehend.

[tp4tissue]

Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...   

However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.

The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.

Yea. There is a big difference between just stating one's opinions, and disregarding and invalidating other people's opinions. Tp4tissue does the latter. The problem we have with him is, whenever someone says they have a positive experience with Topre boards, he literally says "no you don't!" Which... is kind of disrespectful, quite frankly.

You're allowed to say you've had a positive experience, and no I don't respect you in the least...

But I respect the common decency in presenting relevant truthful information, rather than Superlative babble which you seem to only say in order to inflate your ego endlessly droning on about the fact that "YOU" bought a topre..

[fuzzybaffy]

Well... you're speaking generalities. You'd have to open up a Topre and see how it's built before you can make such statements, no?

It's possible the plate is so tightly bound to the bottom that the top has no affect whatsoever on the overall build quality. Also, the switches are plate-mounted, so I have no idea how a plastic top would do anything to affect the plate. Also, there is still no wobble (relative compared to Cherry MX boards) in my keys, regardless of what's going on with the top.

Stop making things up.

[fuzzybaffy]

Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...   

However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.

The issue is that you're stating your opinion as fact. That's really why people get riled up about what you say. TotalChaos does the same ****. You may not think that the production quality and experience is worth it, but many do.

Yea. There is a big difference between just stating one's opinions, and disregarding and invalidating other people's opinions. Tp4tissue does the latter. The problem we have with him is, whenever someone says they have a positive experience with Topre boards, he literally says "no you don't!" Which... is kind of disrespectful, quite frankly.

You're allowed to say you've had a positive experience, and no I don't respect you in the least...

But I respect the common decency in presenting relevant truthful information, rather than Superlative babble which you seem to only say in order to inflate your ego endlessly droning on about the fact that "YOU" bought a topre..

Oh. So that's what it comes down to, isn't it? The idea that I own a Topre offends you. That's your problem, not mine. I'll say I love my Topre boards however the **** I want.

[fuzzybaffy]

I ****ing love my Topre board.

[khaangaaroo]

agreed that tops make a huge difference in cars and some cherry boards as well. but the case makes absolutely no difference  in how topres feel. I know this for a fact having taken many realforces apart, and using one without a case at home, and one with a case at work.

[tp4tissue]

I ****ing love my Topre board.

Nope, I'll allow you to say that..

What I don't like is you saying that it is better quality/ performance than a Filco while being absolutely baseless.

[fuzzybaffy]

But, it is, though. I've owned both. You saying Topres aren't is baseless. In fact, everything you say is baseless.

[tp4tissue]

agreed that tops make a huge difference in cars and some cherry boards as well. but the case makes absolutely no difference  in how topres feel. I know this for a fact having taken many reinforces apart, and using one without a case at home, and one with a case at work.

It absolutely makes a huge difference... Hence the Dramatic difference between HHKB and Topre standard.... The plate

agreed that tops make a huge difference in cars and some cherry boards as well. but the case makes absolutely no difference  in how topres feel. I know this for a fact having taken many reinforces apart, and using one without a case at home, and one with a case at work.

tension between the top and bottom is what helps keep the wobbling at bay....  Demo an aluminum case and then come back and say the Case doesn't matter to topre...

[fuzzybaffy]

There he goes again, absolutely ignoring the fact that khaangaaroo has actually opened a Topre case before.

[khaangaaroo]

Yes, there is a difference between HHKB and a Realforce, they're completely different builds. But I was comparing Realforces with and without a case. (which is where the wobbly case argument comes from).

There is no wobble in the PCB because there are a dozen screws holding it into the metal plate. You can think of the switches, plate, and PCB all as one solid piece since the switches are plate mounted and also sandwiched in between the plate and PCB. The case has no effect on how much tension there is between those pieces.

I understand where you're coming from with the aluminum case argument, cause that indeed does apply to Filco, QFR, etc. But it doesn't to Realforces.

[daerid]

He's just mad there are people who disagree with him. *shrug* I'm over it. I love my Topre boards, and I'll say they're better than a Filco any day of the week, and tp can disagree all he wants. I'm just not going to feed him any more.

[fuzzybaffy]

In other words, how loose the top is has no affect on how the switches work on a Topre. Or, the loose top is not that big of a deal.

So, it's not a big deal, in the same way a lack of storage space on a Ferrari isn't a big deal.

[fuzzybaffy]

I'm not feeding him. I'm just stating my opinions.

[tp4tissue]

Yes, there is a difference between HHKB and a Realforce, they're completely different builds. But I was comparing a Realforces with and without a case. (which is where the wobbly case argument comes from).

There is no wobble in the PCB because there are a dozen screws holding it into the metal plate. You can think of the switches, plate, and PCB all as one solid piece since the switches are plate mounted and also sandwiched in between the plate and PCB. The case has no effect on how much tension there is between those pieces.

I was sure that the plate was as sturdy as can be "BEFORE" I got an aluminum case...    prior to this, I, like you also thought the case was just "extraneous", and an aesthetic component..

However, it greatly contributes to the stability of the keyboard...

[tp4tissue]

I'm not feeding him. I'm just stating my opinions.

And I'm not trolling, I'm just stating the fact that most of your opinions are "wrong" impressions based on egotistical mental fabrications.


The case has significant influence on the stability of the key feel, whether it'd be Cherry MX or Topre..

[fuzzybaffy]

I'm not feeding him. I'm just stating my opinions.

And I'm not trolling, I'm just stating the fact that most of your opinions are "wrong" impressions based on egotistical mental fabrications.

No they're not.

[Rafen]

Well on a better note, I ordered a Realforce 45g keyboard this morning from elitekeyboards.com!

[ValerieV]

I'm jealous! I had one and i sold it because every time i used my computer, after sleep mode or turning it back on completely, i would have to re-plug in the keyboard for it to work. It just became a pain. Anyone here use a Real Force with a MAC and had problems with it? Thanks. 

[khaangaaroo]

I'm jealous! I had one and i sold it because every time i used my computer, after sleep mode or turning it back on completely, i would have to re-plug in the keyboard for it to work. It just became a pain. Anyone here use a Real Force with a MAC and had problems with it? Thanks. 

I use it on a Mac at work with no problems. I've heard someone mention that issue before though. not sure what causes it.

[blackrim]

Well on a better note, I ordered a Realforce 45g keyboard this morning from elitekeyboards.com!

Wow I missed a lot this morning! Anyway, congrats on the board. Would love to hear what you think. I have both HHKBs and the RF 45g and love them both, but my RF 45g is my main driver at the office. I really like it. Daerid's love for the 55g has really tempted me but I like the 45g so much I don't think I am going to try another for a while.

[Rafen]

I was going to get the 55g because yesterday because the website said that it couldn't find the 45g in the inventory. Then today I got on and tried it again and it let me order it. I should get it sometime next week. Once I spend some time on it doing some research papers and homework I will let you know what I think of it.

[ekw808]

I may have a modded 45/55G for sale soon =)

[blackrim]

Modded how?

[ekw808]

I'm gonna swap the domes from the 55g 87U and make a HHKB-S with 55gs, and all of the 45g domes from the HHKB-S will be put onto the 87U, the HHKB has 60 keys, so the 87U will have 60 45gs and 27 55s.

[blackrim]

Funky. BTW, how do you like (or see the differences) of the HHKB pro 2 and the type s?

[ekw808]

I've never had a HHKB pro 2, but in my opinion the silent topre keys are slightly more silent, and have an almost if not identical feel. I'll post something when the HHKB-S arrives.

[ValerieV]

I'm jealous! I had one and i sold it because every time i used my computer, after sleep mode or turning it back on completely, i would have to re-plug in the keyboard for it to work. It just became a pain. Anyone here use a Real Force with a MAC and had problems with it? Thanks. 

I use it on a Mac at work with no problems. I've heard someone mention that issue before though. not sure what causes it.

That may have been me.  I did post that before. Sorry.

[Macsmasher]

Hello everybody. I've browsed this forum for about six months, but this is my first post.

To lead with a little background on me, I've been a self-employed software developer for about 17 years. I only have one employee...me. I'm on my computer for 12 hours per day...more if I were honest about it. Add my gaming on top of that, and I live at my desk. Yes, I'm married and have four kids, but they're older and only two now live at home. But I have a home office, so I can fit the fam in whenever.

Now keyboards...

My first was a Dos Ultimate with browns bought about 2.5 years ago. About six months ago, I bought a variable weighted Realforce 87U Silent for $310. I've also worked on Cherry reds, blues and browns with landing pads.

So, my take on the Topre switches...

The cost:
It's something I spend more time on than my bed. I would've paid $500 to get it. In fact, I kind of did since I also bought the Realforce numberpad for $130 lol. And if you think that's bad, I bought a BodyBilt chair 18 years ago for $1,900. I still use it to this day, and it's one of the best office equipment purchases I've ever made. My point being, price is relative.

The motivation for trying Topre "silent" switches was twofold...

First, I'm tired of the clack-clack of the "silent" Cherry browns. It was novel at first. But I'm constantly on the phone, and clients regularly pointed out my loud typing as I'm taking notes during meetings. And I didn't like the landing pads. They changed the keystroke and it just didn't feel right.

Second, my knuckles were sore at the end of a long day. I don't hammer my keys, but still, the hard landing with the plastic keycap against the plastic deck took its toll. Since I've had my Realforce, no more sore knuckles.

I still use my Dos board for gaming and occasional work. The impressive thing about Cherry switches is longevity. They are workhorses. My Dos keycaps are worn completely smooth and yet the switches actuate like they did the day I bought the keyboard.

Topre or Cherry?...

I like them both, but I'm definitely a Topre convert. The Topre just feels better. It's like butter to type on. Some might not like the light, variable weighted keys. But once you adjust, you lightly tickle the keys and fly. And I don't care if it only lasts three years, I'll probably buy another.

I highly recommend Topre and Realforce...if you can justify / afford it. I also run a 30" IPS primary display at 2560 x 1600, and 24" IPS displays at 1920 x 1200 on each side of that, all three on separate monitor arms. It all helps me get my work done. Like I said...it's all relative.

[khaangaaroo]

Welcome, Macsmasher!

I recently adopted the same philosophy about stuff that I use a lot. I made a rule that if I'm going to be looking at or touching something for more than 30 minutes a day, I'm going to try very hard not think about how much it cost, and just spring for what I'd be most happy with.

Of course not everyone is going to be able to or even want to do that, but at least for me, it's led to fewer regretful purchases.

[rowdy]

Welcome to Geekhack!

Fantastic first post!

Yes, often it is better to get one expensive item (keyboard, chair, whatever) that will last you for years, or at least during its lifetime will not cause you additional expenses).

But if you can't afford that, then get a cheaper alternative every now and again, as they wear out, or to try the alternatives.

Not an approach for everyone - I would love an $1800 chair, but I get by on my $200 chair instead, and I have MX blues and MX blacks for a bit of variety.

I would be curious to try a Topre one day, which would entail actually purchasing one as I don't know anyone who has one, but for now MX suffices.

[iri]

i read this thread and bought a uniform 45g realforce board. may tp4 cry in despair!

[ValerieV]

Which Real Force makes the most noise when you press the keys? Is it the 45g , or 55 g? I have the HHKB and i think that is universally 45g and i love the sound of it. Also, i read that some people have the 30g force keyboard. Who sells that? Thanks.

[ekw808]

Welcome Mac,

Nice little review of the RF.

Which Real Force makes the most noise when you press the keys? Is it the 45g , or 55 g? I have the HHKB and i think that is universally 45g and i love the sound of it. Also, i read that some people have the 30g force keyboard. Who sells that? Thanks.

That all depends on how you type, if you have relatively stronger fingers, the 55g might help you better since it might prevent your from bottoming out as hard. When I had a variable keyboard, I thought the 30g was way too soft, as I would be accidentally pressing the keys without even noticing it, the type S keyboards definitely help with the noise, but still does not completely mute the keyboard.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Realforce

That has a nice catalog of most if not all of the RF's available.

[khaangaaroo]

Which Real Force makes the most noise when you press the keys? Is it the 45g , or 55 g? I have the HHKB and i think that is universally 45g and i love the sound of it. Also, i read that some people have the 30g force keyboard. Who sells that? Thanks.

I think 45g and 55g make about the same amount of noise.
Japan sells the 30g boards. All in JIS layout.

[daerid]

Also the HHKB makes more noise than the RF. They actually sound completely different, due to the plate in the RF.

[ValerieV]

I thought the HHKB sounded louder than the RealForce. I had the RealForce for a short time and i thought it sounded quieter. I am happy with the HHKB. If only it had its own arrow keys it would be perfect. I do like the 45g feel.

[Macsmasher]

I definitely like the small form factor of the HHKB. I even considered getting it in addition to my RF. The Fn + F-Key thing had me on the fence, and I was working really hard at convincing myself I could deal with it lol.

However, the deal breaker for me is the lack of dedicated arrow keys. With three displays, I rely on them heavily to move windows from one display to another. Keyboard shortcuts always trump the mouse, especially in this case. Even with a maximized window, you can pop it to another display without downsizing it...something that's not even possible with a mouse.

Other minor issues are the Home / End keys. I'm constantly highlighting code to copy and paste. Also Page Up / Page Down for vertical navigation. They're simply too handy to relegate to secondary functions, for my work stuff anyway.