What does DSA feel like?

[ideus]

Because I always forget acronyms:
https://www.keychatter.com/keycaps/#materials
This link is a compilation of keycap info

Very interesting read, thanks for the info.

Have you ever seen any documentation of key cap weights? Earlier in the thread people were saying something about DSA keys being much lighter, and I mentioned a comparison with ABS and PBT. I do realize that some caps are advertised as thick PBT keycaps, but I'm not sure about how much more those keycaps would weigh compared to their thinner ABS counterparts.

POM is denser than PBT (but only a little) and they're both denser than ABS (by quite a bit). This is why PBT and POM caps sink in water, but ABS float.

A little comparison of Row 3 DCS and SA ABS doubleshots:

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

I suspect the DSA caps are very similar to the DCS Row 3 (DCS are thinner walled, but taller), even in PBT. There just isn't enough material to make them "heavy". SA Row 1 are even heavier. Love my SA caps.

Thick PBT Cherry Row 3 (Row "C") are in between, at just over 1g (about 1.2g for my black on black IIRC). Will measure when I have a moment.

Wow I did not expect anyone to actually measure the weight of the caps. I also didn't think that the DSA cap would be heavier than a DCS cap.

Thanks for doing that though, really appreciate it.

For the record: The compared cap is SA not DSA. It is not DSA.

[dthai17]

In my opinion, DSA caps are horrid to type on when compared to SA for comfort. The angled aspect of SA is a lot better.

[rowdy]

In my opinion, DSA caps are horrid to type on when compared to SA for comfort. The angled aspect of SA is a lot better.

So presumably you do not like uniform profile SA?

[zslane]

In my opinion, DSA caps are horrid to type on when compared to SA for comfort. The angled aspect of SA is a lot better.

So presumably you do not like uniform profile SA?

I know I don't particularly like the idea. To my mind, the only advantage DSA has over SA is that it can come in PBT. As I understand it, it's uniform profile is largely the result of two things: SP's unwillingness to invest in DSA molds for the other rows, and their (business) decision to use (uniform) DSA to acquire commercial/industrial contracts where such keys are often the norm. It's not because SP expected the mech keyboard community to adopt it as an artisinal keycap profile.

The way I see it, sculpted row profiles are optimal for typing, and that's what we use our keyboards for around here. I think even gamers can benefit from sculpted rows despite the fact that they probably aren't touch typing anything, not even their text chats. A uniform R3 profile isn't meant for us and doesn't really benefit us, except to the extent to which it provides layout flexibility for the 1% (of custom keycap buyers) out there with international or oddball layouts. But that's hardly a reason to infect SA with a uniform profile.

[Oobly]

... that's hardly a reason to infect SA with a uniform profile.

"The first keycap family produced by Signature Plastics’ previous company, Comptec Inc., was the SA family. These keys had a Spherical touch area and the same profile for All rows."

All Row 3 SA predates all other SP profiles. "Sculptured SA" was made some time in th '80s after the failures of SS and DSS to become popular. DSS is in fact sculptured DSA, but SP don't make it any more. SS was an angled, sculptured tall spherical profile. I'd love to have been able to try that one

I happen to like both uniform SA and sculptured SA, with sculptured being nicer to type on, but not a massive difference. SA keytops are actually the same size as DSA, but have a better curvature and feel nicer to me, especially in gloss or semi-matte compared to DSA's matte only texture.

Interestingly enough, Cherry and DCS cap tops are narrower horizontally than SA and DSA.

I am very interested in trying out Devlin's "Q" profile as a low, uniform profile (kind of a thicker, better DSA-equivalent). I think I'd prefer the nice wide tops and more subtle matte texture:

[zslane]

SA may have started out uniform, probably for cost reasons, but it is fully sculpted now. It seems to me that making uniform SA sets today makes about as much sense as willingly designing double-shot sets with (the old) R3 Shift molds and the old SHIF T legend. These are manufacturing limitations that simply no longer apply.

The only reason left I can think of to go uniform R3 is to provide maximum layout flexibility. And while (a relatively small number of) international and fringe users certainly appreciate that, it is nevertheless a misuse of the SA family, in my opinion. Keyboards built for typing have had sculpted rows for eons, whether achieved by way of curved backplates, angled switch stems, or sculpted keycaps. I'm pretty sure this has been the case since long before I got into computers (in 1981).

[ideus]

... that's hardly a reason to infect SA with a uniform profile.

"The first keycap family produced by Signature Plastics’ previous company, Comptec Inc., was the SA family. These keys had a Spherical touch area and the same profile for All rows."

All Row 3 SA predates all other SP profiles. "Sculptured SA" was made some time in th '80s after the failures of SS and DSS to become popular. DSS is in fact sculptured DSA, but SP don't make it any more. SS was an angled, sculptured tall spherical profile. I'd love to have been able to try that one

I happen to like both uniform SA and sculptured SA, with sculptured being nicer to type on, but not a massive difference. SA keytops are actually the same size as DSA, but have a better curvature and feel nicer to me, especially in gloss or semi-matte compared to DSA's matte only texture.

Interestingly enough, Cherry and DCS cap tops are narrower horizontally than SA and DSA.

I am very interested in trying out Devlin's "Q" profile as a low, uniform profile (kind of a thicker, better DSA-equivalent). I think I'd prefer the nice wide tops and more subtle matte texture:

Show Image

This is a very interesting explanation of SP profiles; after, reading it I would like to try Devlin's Q, with a softer texture, that would be more better to type on. Where they can be found?

[Oobly]

SA may have started out uniform, probably for cost reasons, but it is fully sculpted now. It seems to me that making uniform SA sets today makes about as much sense as willingly designing double-shot sets with (the old) R3 Shift molds and the old SHIF T legend. These are manufacturing limitations that simply no longer apply.

The only reason left I can think of to go uniform R3 is to provide maximum layout flexibility. And while (a relatively small number of) international and fringe users certainly appreciate that, it is nevertheless a misuse of the SA family, in my opinion. Keyboards built for typing have had sculpted rows for eons, whether achieved by way of curved backplates, angled switch stems, or sculpted keycaps. I'm pretty sure this has been the case since long before I got into computers (in 1981).

Apple does not make a single contoured keyboard any more. Not one. I guess you could argue they're not meant for typing, though. 

Logitech make many uniform boards, as do a more and more manufacturers nowadays. As more people use boards at flatter angles, the angled back contoured caps of old become less needed, although a contoured set is better to type on for sure. SA was developed as a flat set. It's only "become" a ture fully sculptured set now with the completion of the Row 4 Shift molds.

We're going with all Row3 SA for our Classic Space set because it matches the theme and core concept the best of all available profiles and that's a reason you've missed. It also allows us to use relegendables as novelties (this is not mentioned yet in the thread).

Unfortunately Devlin doesn't sell direct to the public, but UKKeycaps is in discussions with them to start running GB's and hopefully we'll be able to design sets with them soon

[dummytim]

Wow I didn't know that there were "sculpted" SA caps and "non-sculpted" ones. This is actually really interesting, I guess I'll need to do more research on keycap profiles. I also see talk about a "Delvin Q" cap, just did a quick search on it. The Delvin Q looks a lot like just standard laptop keys to me.

[zslane]

Technically, "sculpted" is a reference to the rows, not the keycaps shapes per se. A keyset can be composed of SAs without having sculpted rows, and that's what you get when they are all R3 for example.

[zslane]

SA may have started out uniform, probably for cost reasons, but it is fully sculpted now. It seems to me that making uniform SA sets today makes about as much sense as willingly designing double-shot sets with (the old) R3 Shift molds and the old SHIF T legend. These are manufacturing limitations that simply no longer apply.

The only reason left I can think of to go uniform R3 is to provide maximum layout flexibility. And while (a relatively small number of) international and fringe users certainly appreciate that, it is nevertheless a misuse of the SA family, in my opinion. Keyboards built for typing have had sculpted rows for eons, whether achieved by way of curved backplates, angled switch stems, or sculpted keycaps. I'm pretty sure this has been the case since long before I got into computers (in 1981).

Apple does not make a single contoured keyboard any more. Not one. I guess you could argue they're not meant for typing, though. 

Logitech make many uniform boards, as do a more and more manufacturers nowadays. As more people use boards at flatter angles, the angled back contoured caps of old become less needed, although a contoured set is better to type on for sure. SA was developed as a flat set. It's only "become" a ture fully sculptured set now with the completion of the Row 4 Shift molds.

Well, I would argue that the loss of sculpted rows in cheap, modern keyboards is a by-product of cost-cutting measures (and a customer base that just doesn't care). The increase in laptops and tablets further erodes the public's appreciation for sculpted keyboards. I still consider sculpted rows the "optimal norm" for keyboards built for typing, even if they are not popular with the masses.

[Oobly]

SA may have started out uniform, probably for cost reasons, but it is fully sculpted now. It seems to me that making uniform SA sets today makes about as much sense as willingly designing double-shot sets with (the old) R3 Shift molds and the old SHIF T legend. These are manufacturing limitations that simply no longer apply.

The only reason left I can think of to go uniform R3 is to provide maximum layout flexibility. And while (a relatively small number of) international and fringe users certainly appreciate that, it is nevertheless a misuse of the SA family, in my opinion. Keyboards built for typing have had sculpted rows for eons, whether achieved by way of curved backplates, angled switch stems, or sculpted keycaps. I'm pretty sure this has been the case since long before I got into computers (in 1981).

Apple does not make a single contoured keyboard any more. Not one. I guess you could argue they're not meant for typing, though. 

Logitech make many uniform boards, as do a more and more manufacturers nowadays. As more people use boards at flatter angles, the angled back contoured caps of old become less needed, although a contoured set is better to type on for sure. SA was developed as a flat set. It's only "become" a ture fully sculptured set now with the completion of the Row 4 Shift molds.

Well, I would argue that the loss of sculpted rows in cheap, modern keyboards is a by-product of cost-cutting measures (and a customer base that just doesn't care). The increase in laptops and tablets further erodes the public's appreciation for sculpted keyboards. I still consider sculpted rows the "optimal norm" for keyboards built for typing, even if they are not popular with the masses.

I agree with you on that point, but "flat" profile caps are perfectly acceptable nowadays, perhaps more than ever before, due to how used to them most people are now. I prefer sculptured, but find flat to be usable. In fact, I find all Row 3 SA preferable to DCS and Cherry, due to the lack of "steps" that force you to raise your fingers when switching rows. Sculptured SA is definitely my favourite, though.

[bcredbottle]

What it feels like to type on DSA

More

[zslane]

I agree with you on that point, but "flat" profile caps are perfectly acceptable nowadays, perhaps more than ever before, due to how used to them most people are now. I prefer sculptured, but find flat to be usable. In fact, I find all Row 3 SA preferable to DCS and Cherry, due to the lack of "steps" that force you to raise your fingers when switching rows. Sculptured SA is definitely my favourite, though.

I need to start using the world sculptured. I've been using sculpted all this time. Doh!

I should point out that I have DSA sets on my two Pok3rs and find them to be acceptible. I enjoy the pumice-like feel of Granite's PBT caps, as a nice contrast with the semi-gloss feel of my SA sets. And the medium height feels somehow appropriate for such a small (almost toylike) keyboard. But I can't help but wish the rows were sculptured.

[ideus]

It does not have much sense to dress a mechanical keyboard with flat keys, similar to most lap top keyboards available, while you can use a nice profiled set instead. It is kind of an oxymoron, an intrinsic contradiction.

[bcredbottle]

It does not have much sense to dress a mechanical keyboard with flat keys, similar to most lap top keyboards available, while you can use a nice profiled set instead. It is kind of an oxymoron, an intrinsic contradiction.

Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.

[Oobly]

It does not have much sense to dress a mechanical keyboard with flat keys, similar to most lap top keyboards available, while you can use a nice profiled set instead. It is kind of an oxymoron, an intrinsic contradiction.

Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.

Half a bee, philisophically,
Must ipso facto half not be.
But half a bee has got to be
Vis a vis it's entity.
-d'you see?

[ideus]

It does not have much sense to dress a mechanical keyboard with flat keys, similar to most lap top keyboards available, while you can use a nice profiled set instead. It is kind of an oxymoron, an intrinsic contradiction.

Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.

This is cool, even when I was not able to understand it.


 

[building_an_ergo]

I had a hell of a time when I first started to use DSA, but it was the same time I switched from a normal fullsize keyboard to an ergodox, so that had lots to do with it.

I am used to it now and absolutely love it.  I prefer it to normal profiles now that I am used to it.

[dummytim]

It does not have much sense to dress a mechanical keyboard with flat keys, similar to most lap top keyboards available, while you can use a nice profiled set instead. It is kind of an oxymoron, an intrinsic contradiction.

Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.

Agreed. I had no idea what they were saying, but I don't know if I would fully agree with you saying that if someone has a mechanical keyboard that there's no use to use flat profiled caps. I think that preference plays a large role in deciding the right keys. I think going with a mechanical keyboard, it's mainly for the travel of the keys compared to a standard rubber dome board.

I do have a potential seller of DSA styled caps from someone's grab bag, so I'll just wait till those arrive before finally deciding if it's for me or not.
This is cool, even when I was not able to understand it.


 

[ideus]

I had a hell of a time when I first started to use DSA, but it was the same time I switched from a normal fullsize keyboard to an ergodox, so that had lots to do with it.

I am used to it now and absolutely love it.  I prefer it to normal profiles now that I am used to it.

An Ergodox is one the exceptions for flat profiles, where regular sculpted may not be the best option for all users.

[zslane]

Yeah, it's kind of like two ergonomics solutions getting in each other's way. I'd be curious to hear from Ergo users who have sculptured SA sets on their boards.

[Frizer]

I use a 75% board with DSA for gaming. I find it is nice for creative writing where I'm pausing a lot, but in general any heavy lifting requires a cherry profile.

[dummytim]

I use a 75% board with DSA for gaming. I find it is nice for creative writing where I'm pausing a lot, but in general any heavy lifting requires a cherry profile.

Could you explain what the difference is for you? How the two compare to each other while doing lots of typing.

You said that you game with it, which means that you're using it for probably a couple of hours at a time. Then you also said that "heavy lifting" requires cherry profile, which I'm assuming a lot of typing?

[Oobly]

Yeah, it's kind of like two ergonomics solutions getting in each other's way. I'd be curious to hear from Ergo users who have sculptured SA sets on their boards.

I really like them on my Ergo:



I'm using Row 1, 3, 4 on the main character areas. Row 1,3 inverted 1 is even better The Carbon set has a fully sculptured ErogoDox layout.

I don't see why someone wouldn't like them on a 'Dox. AFAIK, most ErgoDox kits have been "flat" simply because it allows you to arrange the caps any way you like, not for any comfort or ergonomic reasons.

[davkol]

Yeah, at least the early ErgoDox drops didn't even include distinct home keys (e.g., dished DSA). It was awful.

[Giorgio]

DSA is too small. Being spherical, there is only one good point to put your finger into. With a cylindrical prophile instead, you have more freedom along one axis.

[InflamedToaster]

One thing that makes me think I would like the DSA profile over the SA profile is portability. The SA keys look much taller than other profiles. Does it make transporting your keyboards more difficult?

[ideus]

That ergo looks interesting, it seems it is your very personal version of an ergo.

[dummytim]

Yeah, it's kind of like two ergonomics solutions getting in each other's way. I'd be curious to hear from Ergo users who have sculptured SA sets on their boards.

I really like them on my Ergo:

Show Image

I'm using Row 1, 3, 4 on the main character areas. Row 1,3 inverted 1 is even better :) The Carbon set has a fully sculptured ErogoDox layout.

I don't see why someone wouldn't like them on a 'Dox. AFAIK, most ErgoDox kits have been "flat" simply because it allows you to arrange the caps any way you like, not for any comfort or ergonomic reasons.

How long did it take you to make this board, oh and how much did it cost? :P

Right one more question is how long did it take you to get used to that layout?

[Oobly]

That ergo looks interesting, it seems it is your very personal version of an ergo.

Yeah, it's kind of like two ergonomics solutions getting in each other's way. I'd be curious to hear from Ergo users who have sculptured SA sets on their boards.

I really like them on my Ergo:

Show Image

I'm using Row 1, 3, 4 on the main character areas. Row 1,3 inverted 1 is even better :) The Carbon set has a fully sculptured ErogoDox layout.

I don't see why someone wouldn't like them on a 'Dox. AFAIK, most ErgoDox kits have been "flat" simply because it allows you to arrange the caps any way you like, not for any comfort or ergonomic reasons.

How long did it take you to make this board, oh and how much did it cost? :P

Right one more question is how long did it take you to get used to that layout?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721.0

It took a couple of months, designing as I went. I didn't really keep track of the cost, but I got the plate and switches from a Ducky and then used some aluminium plate, a Teensy 2.0, some metal epoxy and hot glue to build it. Also some USB cable and some connectors from an old circuit board I had lying around. Overall I'd say it cost around 140€ or so for all the parts minus keycaps.

The actual character layout is listed in that thread. I got used to the thumb clusters really quickly, but the character layout has taken a bit of time. I'm still a bit faster on a QWERTY board, but the ergo feels nicer to use. I'm sure I'll overtake my QWERTY speed soon, though :D

It's really great for gaming, too.  :thumb:

I'm working on a new design, which should be possible to manufacture in small quantities and if I get that far I'll sell some to interested GH members. I really think the thumb clusters are the best way to manage all modifiers and and layers for a small board.

[Frizer]

I use a 75% board with DSA for gaming. I find it is nice for creative writing where I'm pausing a lot, but in general any heavy lifting requires a cherry profile.

Could you explain what the difference is for you? How the two compare to each other while doing lots of typing.

You said that you game with it, which means that you're using it for probably a couple of hours at a time. Then you also said that "heavy lifting" requires cherry profile, which I'm assuming a lot of typing?

Gaming: So when you move from "Q" to "1" to "F1" it's a nice smooth movement. This is, however, a very personal feeling.
Creative writing: I don't write prose so I tend to pause a lot, I wouldn't bother to swap out to a Cherry profile just to write a few pages and in fact I do like the DSA feel for this because it's quite "plonk-plonk-plonk"  It can be terrible for typos though.
Writing: If I have to type for work the I plug in a topre or tactile switch with cherry profile.

[ideus]

Any key cap is good for typing and, by extension, for any use involving it, name it gaming. However the efficiency for the task may vary, but it is more related with the practice the typist have with a particular key board, including all its elements, key caps, switches, material and its texture and layout. Focus on the key cap type only and making an argument just based on it regarding a typing experience is not a good scientific approach. Some people find rubber domes very good for their use and you can see them typing very efficiently on them, that alone demonstrates that there is no a particular key cap, or even a key board, mechanical or not, that may be the best for certain computing activity involving typing. In the other hand, preferences will be very different for each individual and testimonies shared here cannot be generalized. Some others, find lap top key boards to be very nice to type on, again, it may be a matter of continuous use of them that make their use very friendly.


For the OP, if you want to know how does DSA feel, then do you homework and give it a try and make your mind about it, but you should be aware that the final feeling is a result of more than one factor and that it may be different from some others experiences.

[dummytim]

Any key cap is good for typing and, by extension, for any use involving it, name it gaming. However the efficiency for the task may vary, but it is more related with the practice the typist have with a particular key board, including all its elements, key caps, switches, material and its texture and layout. Focus on the key cap type only and making an argument just based on it regarding a typing experience is not a good scientific approach. Some people find rubber domes very good for their use and you can see them typing very efficiently on them, that alone demonstrates that there is no a particular key cap, or even a key board, mechanical or not, that may be the best for certain computing activity involving typing. In the other hand, preferences will be very different for each individual and testimonies shared here cannot be generalized. Some others, find lap top key boards to be very nice to type on, again, it may be a matter of continuous use of them that make their use very friendly.


For the OP, if you want to know how does DSA feel, then do you homework and give it a try and make your mind about it, but you should be aware that the final feeling is a result of more than one factor and that it may be different from some others experiences.

Oh I already have a seller lined up for some DSA caps. Can't wait to get them to try

It seems like there are many other types of caps to try out so the thread has just kind of moved on towards asking about other keycap opinions.

[ideus]

Any key cap is good for typing and, by extension, for any use involving it, name it gaming. However the efficiency for the task may vary, but it is more related with the practice the typist have with a particular key board, including all its elements, key caps, switches, material and its texture and layout. Focus on the key cap type only and making an argument just based on it regarding a typing experience is not a good scientific approach. Some people find rubber domes very good for their use and you can see them typing very efficiently on them, that alone demonstrates that there is no a particular key cap, or even a key board, mechanical or not, that may be the best for certain computing activity involving typing. In the other hand, preferences will be very different for each individual and testimonies shared here cannot be generalized. Some others, find lap top key boards to be very nice to type on, again, it may be a matter of continuous use of them that make their use very friendly.


For the OP, if you want to know how does DSA feel, then do you homework and give it a try and make your mind about it, but you should be aware that the final feeling is a result of more than one factor and that it may be different from some others experiences.

Oh I already have a seller lined up for some DSA caps. Can't wait to get them to try

It seems like there are many other types of caps to try out so the thread has just kind of moved on towards asking about other keycap opinions.

That's great, you may know first hand if the profile is for you. Good luck.

[dan002]

Referring to DSA, I always thought it was the shape of the key. Only after I swapped out my cherry profile with DSA did I release they have the exact same height on every row.
However, I honestly didn't notice this until I swapped back on my cherry profile after a couple of weeks. Crazy right?

[zslane]

You'd have to either visit the Signature Plastics webpage devoted to describing their keycap families, or read any one of about a thousand threads on numerous forums where the string "DSA profile" appears, in order to learn that DSA is a single profile, medium-high spherical keycap. Or, failing that, look carefully at any photograph ever taken of a keyboard fitted with DSA keycaps.

[hknmng]

I hate DSA caps. The smaller tops were not pleasant to type on. I made more errors when I typed with them, and my typing speed was slower. Bought a set of Granite and couldn't get used to them. If you're using ABS OEM profile caps, then the PBT DSA caps will feel more textured.

I agree with this. I've been using OEM profile keyboards and when I tried DSA profile keyboard for the first time yesterday, I straight away felt so uncomfortable typing on it. My fingers just don't rest on the keyboard comfortably and I make more typos using DSA. OEM is more ergonomic and feels more natural for my fingers.

[obtuse]

How does it differ from XDA?

I'll be putting some DSA keys on my next board, since I've recently switched to dvorak for RSI problems. I want legends to be correct and I can't deal with all the various angles all over the board you get from using dvorak keycap layout with sculpted keys. Reading this thread got me a bit worried, but I hope I'll enjoy them enough.