How is the Kinesis Advantage on the thumbs?

[Sciurid89]

Hey Folks,

I spent quite a fair amount of time reading here today (most of it at work... oops!) because I seem to be getting RSI symptoms and am trying to head it off with better tools. Based on what I've read, it sounds like the Kinesis Advantage might do it for me, but I'd like to get some direct advice given what I'm currently contending with.

My pinkies now abhor pressing shift/ctrl/backspace/enter, to the point that I am moving my hands to use the ring finger instead (or both hands, in the case of ctrl combos). Also, flat mice seemed to put pressure on the cubital nerve, making my right pinky numb - a vertical mouse seems to have mostly helped that.

But my thumbs aren't great either - the muscley part on the underside along the palm is sore (it's better with the vertical mouse, but not perfect). It seems like I tend to spacebar with my right thumb as well, and I'm sure I can retrain myself to use the other thumb for that easily.

It seems like a thumby keyboard (Kinesis, or Ergo Dox, but the latter would take a while to acquire/craft parts for) mapped appropriately could take most of the work out of the pinkies, which would be awesome. BUT - can anyone with similar experience suggest whether the increased workload on the thumbs could be a problem?

I'm also considering footpedals to do shift/ctrl - does anyone have experience with those?

Thanks for any input!

[Lanx]

i have done just that, i remapped shift to the thumb cluster and have never looked back, it's beyond awesome. The only time i ever use shift with pinkies is if i'm on a non kinesis keyboard (my laptops, htpc)

[TD22057]

I don't have any pinky problems but I do have thumb problems.  I bought a Kinesis earlier this year after my old Microsoft Natural died and after a week of using it I had to quit because it was really hard on my thumbs.  Haven't got around to it yet but it's going up for sale in the classifieds soon. I couldn't find a nice ergo keyboard I liked so I'm going for a full custom split hand of my own design.  Like the ergodox but without the thumb clusters...

[Larken]

No experience with the advantage, but I'm using an ergodox as my daily driver one. Never had much problems with my pinkies, but have had issues with wrists and the right thumb (the thumb was mostly due to the mousing - seems to have improved since I switched to a trackball).

I'd say depending on the severity of your thumb issues, the increased usage on thumb cluster isn't a huge problem - I use space and backspace on my right and left thumbs respectively, and I've been typing upwards of 8 hours a day without any issues. I keep shifts still on my pinkies and ctrl to thumbs (though its rather flexible on the ergodox if I do want to change it). But my thumb problems come more from mousing and tablet use, not typing.

[mikelanding]

I do have pinky issue when using normal keyboard. Then switch to Kinesis and now Ergodox, my pingkies love me now. Less strain and pain after long hours in front of PC.
Remap Shift key to left thumb cluster. Needed few days at first to adapt. Now is perfectly fine.
Since I start using Logitech M570 trackball mouse, my right thumb workload increased. Now start to feel strain/sore. Might change to Kensington Slimblade for 1-2 weeks.

[Input Nirvana]

Sounds like you might be a great candidate to use the Kinesis Contoured line. The thumb issue may not exist once you try it, but there's no way to know until you try it.

I'm stepping out on a limb here, but I'm wondering if you try something for a week...if that's long enough. If something hurts, I wonder if you get over it in about 2 weeks.

[davkol]

Foot switches are fine if you're OK with lower speed. I found it impossible to use a foot switch for AltGr and Shift when typing faster than 40 wpm.

I recommend to try TypeMatrix or program some POS keyboard to similar layout, because of

• frequent keys (Enter, Backspace) in the middle of the keyboard;
• Shift on the home row;
• theoretically, you might be able to press Ctrl or Alt with your palm.

[Sciurid89]

Sounds like you might be a great candidate to use the Kinesis Contoured line. The thumb issue may not exist once you try it, but there's no way to know until you try it.

I'm stepping out on a limb here, but I'm wondering if you try something for a week...if that's long enough. If something hurts, I wonder if you get over it in about 2 weeks.

Well, I got one (red switches).

Pinky status after 1 week: good, due to pinkys now only being responsible for letters (and if I switched key layouts it would be better still)

Thumb status after 1 week: bad. My hands are fairly averaged sized, maybe a tad on the smaller side, and I find even the most proximal thumb keys are still too much of  a stretch. The tendon that pulls the thumb outward is like LOLWAT and if, for example, I try to hover my thumbs in that spot, they twitch like crazy. I wish I could nix the entire bottom row to move the thumb keys out and up.

That said, I'll give it another week. I like the switches (this is my first mechanical board). I don't bottom them out, and rubber domes feel awfully stiff now by comparison. I like the straight columns. T and Y (in QWERTY) are kind of hard to reach, so when I switch layouts (if I keep the keyboard) I'll probably relegate those keys to obscure punctuation.

[TD22057]

Well, I got one (red switches).

Pinky status after 1 week: good, due to pinkys now only being responsible for letters (and if I switched key layouts it would be better still)

Thumb status after 1 week: bad. My hands are fairly averaged sized, maybe a tad on the smaller side, and I find even the most proximal thumb keys are still too much of  a stretch. The tendon that pulls the thumb outward is like LOLWAT and if, for example, I try to hover my thumbs in that spot, they twitch like crazy. I wish I could nix the entire bottom row to move the thumb keys out and up.

That said, I'll give it another week. I like the switches (this is my first mechanical board). I don't bottom them out, and rubber domes feel awfully stiff now by comparison. I like the straight columns. T and Y (in QWERTY) are kind of hard to reach, so when I switch layouts (if I keep the keyboard) I'll probably relegate those keys to obscure punctuation.

Don't forget about the build your own option.  It is a bit of work but you can get exactly what you want.  I'm in a similar position - my thumbs were killing me after trying the advantage.  I didn't know anything about mechanical keyboards a few months ago and now I'm in the process of building the board shown below - I think it's going to work out perfectly for me. 

[Sciurid89]

Well, I got one (red switches).

Pinky status after 1 week: good, due to pinkys now only being responsible for letters (and if I switched key layouts it would be better still)

Thumb status after 1 week: bad. My hands are fairly averaged sized, maybe a tad on the smaller side, and I find even the most proximal thumb keys are still too much of  a stretch. The tendon that pulls the thumb outward is like LOLWAT and if, for example, I try to hover my thumbs in that spot, they twitch like crazy. I wish I could nix the entire bottom row to move the thumb keys out and up.

That said, I'll give it another week. I like the switches (this is my first mechanical board). I don't bottom them out, and rubber domes feel awfully stiff now by comparison. I like the straight columns. T and Y (in QWERTY) are kind of hard to reach, so when I switch layouts (if I keep the keyboard) I'll probably relegate those keys to obscure punctuation.

Don't forget about the build your own option.  It is a bit of work but you can get exactly what you want.  I'm in a similar position - my thumbs were killing me after trying the advantage.  I didn't know anything about mechanical keyboards a few months ago and now I'm in the process of building the board shown below - I think it's going to work out perfectly for me.

That looks awesome! I might have to research building one. I have no experience soldering or any of that, but it sounds like a person can learn it without too much trouble...

[Sciurid89]

I have dropped the height of the thumb clusters using no more than longer screws:



This makes them vastly more comfortable, though I will need to shave off some of the surrounding shell so that there isn't a rough edge right there next to the thumb.

[zzzzzzz]

I would like to do this, but I'm confused how did you do this? Which screws are you talking about?

Thanks

I have dropped the height of the thumb clusters using no more than longer screws:

(Attachment Link)

[vvp]

The screws selected with red color.

[rsantos97]

Well, I got one (red switches).

Pinky status after 1 week: good, due to pinkys now only being responsible for letters (and if I switched key layouts it would be better still)

Thumb status after 1 week: bad. My hands are fairly averaged sized, maybe a tad on the smaller side, and I find even the most proximal thumb keys are still too much of  a stretch. The tendon that pulls the thumb outward is like LOLWAT and if, for example, I try to hover my thumbs in that spot, they twitch like crazy. I wish I could nix the entire bottom row to move the thumb keys out and up.

That said, I'll give it another week. I like the switches (this is my first mechanical board). I don't bottom them out, and rubber domes feel awfully stiff now by comparison. I like the straight columns. T and Y (in QWERTY) are kind of hard to reach, so when I switch layouts (if I keep the keyboard) I'll probably relegate those keys to obscure punctuation.

Don't forget about the build your own option.  It is a bit of work but you can get exactly what you want.  I'm in a similar position - my thumbs were killing me after trying the advantage.  I didn't know anything about mechanical keyboards a few months ago and now I'm in the process of building the board shown below - I think it's going to work out perfectly for me. 

Odd.  I have small hands myself and found the thumb clusters on the Kinesis to be great.  The issue I had with the keyboard was that typing on it for me was fatiguing due to the key travel distance and angle of the higher row keys.  Also the keyboard was a bit too tall to work on certain desk layouts.

The ergodox on the other hand had a horrible thumb cluster.  It was too far from the rest of the keys.

[vvp]

I do not have problem with Kinesis Advantage thumb cluster too.
But my hands are average or probably even on the big side.
Despite that I decided to built my own: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61323.0
Mostly to get more thumb buttons and more program-ability (open source firmware). And I wanted it to be contoured.