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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: Krogenar on Mon, 29 April 2013, 09:30:59
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I'm curious about what people would be willing to pay for a modern keyboard with Hall Effect switches? I found a company offering them (MOQ of 5) at a price of about $600 each, which is way more than I would be willing to pay. So I'm going to the manufacturer to see if they would be willing to sell in quantity or individually. I'm talking about RAFI Hall Effect keyboard.
[attach=1]
According to their PDF, this keyboard is available n-key rollover, doubleshot keys (did not say keycap material). Their PDF claims that it's available in USB and PS/2 (is n-key rollover even possible with USB, I thought it was not? Correct me if I'm wrong.) and available in US, German and French layouts.
I'm thinking I would be in on this if the price were in the ballpark of $200, but not $600. So my questions are:
- Who would be interested in such a keyboarD?
- What would your price point be like, to buy it?
- Has anyone ever tried to do this?
- Does anyone have experience with this keyboard, or any other Hall Effect keyboards? Share those experiences?
I've contacted the company, and I'm now waiting to hear back from them.
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Dat' price....
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I'd be in for one. It really just depends on the price. Like $150 maybe. It would really just be a curiosity for me, never tried one of these before.
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Yeah, I found a distributor of these 'boards asking for roughly $600 each, minimum order quantity of 5. So then I found the manufacturer, used my company's name, and asked what it would cost to purchase six directly from them. One of these guys sold for $100 over on DT:
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/kmac-ssk-ltracx-hall-effect-dolch-t5658.html?hilit=hall%20effect
Image provided by seller is this:
(http://i.imgur.com/pMz83Ip.jpg)
Nice-looking keyboard, and RAFI lists it as a stock keyboard, and their site also translates to English (though they are a German company) so it looks like they might be open to an international sale. I'm hoping they don't give me the 'talk to one of our distributors brush-off'. If they try, I'll ask them what our MOQ would have to be to get a wholesale price. Who knows what they'll say. Let's imagine they say: "Buy 20 keyboards and the cost is $125 each." Ok, well... then that would be pretty awesome. There's got to be 20 people willing to risk that much on a Hall Effect keyboard, right?
Or wrong? I dunno. Worth wondering about it at least.
[attachimg=1]
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If postage could be worked out reasonably to the UK I'd be interested price depending. Does anybody know what the thing top right is? First image looks like it has a key in it?
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(Attachment Link)
Dude! What was that thing made out of? Looks like it could break a cheekbone. Her beautiful face...
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If postage could be worked out reasonably to the UK I'd be interested price depending. Does anybody know what the thing top right is? First image looks like it has a key in it?
DT sell thread: "missing faux-lock-key" -- so, fake locking mechanism? It's not even listed as a feature in their PDF.
Here's the link to their 'standard' keyboards, PDF at the bottom of the page: http://www.rafi.de/Standard-Keyboards-RAFI.199.0.html?&L=1
(http://www.rafi.de/Standard-Keyboards-RAFI.199.0.html?&L=1)
Aaand, here's the PDF link itself: http://www.rafi.de/index.php?id=199&no_cache=1&file=158&uid=1436&L=1 (http://www.rafi.de/index.php?id=199&no_cache=1&file=158&uid=1436&L=1)
Page 15 of the PDF brochure. I think we're looking at the B6. They have a mechanical version, but this is the Hall Effect switch version.
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(Attachment Link)
Dude! What was that thing made out of? Looks like it could break a cheekbone. Her beautiful face...
Hopefully it was made of spray-painted foam. She's hot, but man are the Resident Evil movies about the worst films ever made, LOL!
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Oh god, I know. I liked the first one, but after that, way downhill.
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I'd be more interested in this if I had tried it or someone did a tour. I think it'd be awesome to have new and different switches but $600 is a very steep price point for me to have the privilege of owning one of these boards.
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Oh god, I know. I liked the first one, but after that, way downhill.
http://buriedplanet.com/drupal/content/resident-evil-afterlife (http://buriedplanet.com/drupal/content/resident-evil-afterlife)
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I'd be more interested in this if I had tried it or someone did a tour. I think it'd be awesome to have new and different switches but $600 is a very steep price point for me to have the privilege of owning one of these boards.
Oh, I completely agree. I wouldn't buy any keyboard for $600. I'm trying to get the price down by dealing directly with the manufacturer. I'm going to PM the buyer and seller from DT and see if they can shed any light on this keyboard. If anyone is aware of any other Hall Effect keyboard out there, please chime in.
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can I ask whats so special about this board and its switches?
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can I ask whats so special about this board and its switches?
Hall effect switches are super linear
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I'd be in for one at 200 or so.
I didn't realize there was still a hall effect board in production...
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can I ask whats so special about this board and its switches?
They last pretty much for evar.
Now, I'd check to see exactly what kind of hall effect switches they are using. Certain RAFI hall effects use an inverted dome instead of a linear spring. Sorta meh to type on.
I'm not really that interested as I have lots of hall effect keyboards myself. But it would may interesting to see if you could source switches depending on the type.
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can I ask whats so special about this board and its switches?
They last pretty much for evar.
Now, I'd check to see exactly what kind of hall effect switches they are using. Certain RAFI hall effects use an inverted dome instead of a linear spring. Sorta meh to type on.
I'm not really that interested as I have lots of hall effect keyboards myself. But it would may interesting to see if you could source switches depending on the type.
Thanks for the input HaaTa; I know that you sold some Hall Effect numpads a while back, so you've got some experience with these kinds of switches. Here's the research I've got on these specific keyboards. Here's what I've found:
This page: http://www.rafi.de/RS-76-full-travel-keyswitches.165.0.html?&L=1 (http://www.rafi.de/RS-76-full-travel-keyswitches.165.0.html?&L=1) states:
RAFI PCB keyswitches, full-travel system RS 76 and keylock switch for PCB
The RS76 series offers a complete modular system for mounting high-quality full-travel systems (key stroke 4 mm) in a ¾ inch grid with an overall height of 15.5 or 15.9 mm.
Two different contact systems are available:
A high-quality gold alloy is used in the RS76M. It offers high contact reliability combined with low contact resistances and short bounce times.
A contactless Hall-based contact system is used in the RS76C. This allows bounce-free and wear-free switching with an unrivalled service life, also in difficult environmental conditions.
Still not sure if these are the subpar Hall Effect keyswitches you are referring to, so following to their online catalog here:
http://shop.rafi.de/productgroup.php?pgsn=312&pgid=450&chaptersn=4688&chapterid=450&dbtype=Chapter&chash=b16fa9
(http://shop.rafi.de/productgroup.php?pgsn=312&pgid=450&chaptersn=4688&chapterid=450&dbtype=Chapter&chash=b16fa9) it states:
Solid-state contact system RS 76 C
The solid-state switch in Hall-IC technology ensures bounce-free and wear-free switching and a long operating life. Function: When pressing the keys, a permanent magnet changes its position relative to the Hall-IC and thereby generates an output signal. Their use is especially recommended in hostile environments and for heavy duty applications.
There's a RS 76 M which is referred to as a mechanical gold-contact switch, maybe that's the one you encountered? Going a bit deeper, I find a PDF describing the switch itself, here: http://shop.rafi.de/img/pdf/en/4-126--4-130-2012.pdf (http://shop.rafi.de/img/pdf/en/4-126--4-130-2012.pdf)
From that PDF, this diagram, found on page 2:
[attach=1] That's the RS 76 C (Hall Effect)
[attach=2] That's the RS 76 M (Mechanical)
HaaTa, or anyone else who is more of an expert, can you shed some light on this? Are these the good Hall Effect switches, or the bad ones? Webwit over at DT purchased the keyboard above, but he has not received it yet. I PM'd the seller for some more information on the 'board, and asked Webwit about it in the sale thread. So hopefully we'll find out more about this 'board. It was described as being like a Vintage MX Black, super-smooth keyfeel and very, very longlasting. It's tantalizing to me, to think that there could be a bunch of these just sitting on a shelf somewhere at RAFI's warehouse.
The last PDF also indicates that the keycaps are ABS, possibly doubleshots. They look somewhat similar to SP's DSA profile.
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Update: I heard back from the seller of the keyboard, Okeg, and he described the keyboard:
"they're perfect. When you type; they're really smooth, almost like if they're hovering(which they kinda are), when they bottom out(if you do) they feel tactile."
He says he's going to organize a GB.
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Yeah, these look like the nicer linear version.
This the less nice version. I mean they are decent domes...but still domes.
https://plus.google.com/photos/113845661925823397356/albums/5671218942202764833?banner=pwa (https://plus.google.com/photos/113845661925823397356/albums/5671218942202764833?banner=pwa)
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I know Rouger has one of the Hall Effect Numpads as well. Maybe he'll see this and comment
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Interested, if the eventual price is under $200.
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So for $600 a piece, they would make it to have modern looks, like a black case, metal case? USB?
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So for $600 a piece, they would make it to have modern looks, like a black case, metal case? USB?
No, I found someone with a few in stock in Europe but they wanted roughly $600 per, not including shipping. That's for the stock item, as you see above.
It's been nearly two days with no response from RAFI, so I'm considering contacting one of their distributors. I just don't want to pay retail if it's at all possible.
Do we know anyone in Germany who could act as a proxy? And I ask this the very same day I created the 'Europe, F*ck No!' thread. Heh.
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Webwit hasn't told me how he likes the 'board yet (he hasn't received it) but he gave me the link to a mini-review of someone who owned this model board. It can be found here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13684.0
I had read about magnet switches on Wikipedia before, and they claimed they were very uncommon due to the high cost and therefore only used in equipment that absolutely needs to be fail-safe (such as airplane controls).
But yesterday I had the pleasure of trying my first keyboard with a switch type yet unknown to me: Magnetic sensors based on the Hall-IC effect! The board I tried uses RAFI RS 76C switches. Here is bit of info from their catalog on this switch:
Quote
The solid state Hall-IC integrated circuit technology guarantees bounce-free and wear-free switching and an extremely long service life of > 100 million operations. When the key is pressed, a permanent magnet changes its position relative to the Hall-IC and thereby produces an output signal. Advantages: Withstands hostile environment (dust, etc.) and provides smooth typing for continuous-duty professional applications.
I am absolutely stunned by how good this keyboard feels. Keep in mind that I am a linear switch lover, though. The switch feel on this what could best be described as a linear, smooth stroke similar to a very light Cherry MX black. Absolutely smooth, yet crisp and without any rattle. Even the keycaps are as tightly mounted as the Olsen twins. You guys know how retarded it can sound to describe what a keyboard feels like, so I'll stop here.
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This site also seems to have a few in stock http://www.texim-europe.com/product/3931056360500-RAFI.
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This site also seems to have a few in stock http://www.texim-europe.com/product/3931056360500-RAFI.
Yeah, this is the group that said it would require a minimum order quantity of five keyboards, at $625 for each keyboard. I know they've got to be getting them from RAFI for, I dunno, $200? Maybe less? I've reached out to their UK distributor, still no response. Maybe I should just ask: "How many of these do I have to buy in order to drop the price down to $200/keyboard?" and see what they say? I'm still waiting on webwit to see if he thinks this board is as great as people claim.
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sub $200 is preferable. I would probably bite.
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Ooh.
I don't even have space in my desk setup for one of these, but the switches sound so exactly like what I like in terms of characteristics that I can't help but be interested. If the price comes in around or under $200, at least.
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I'm definitively interested in one of these at $200-$300.
Btw it would be really cool to do a GH60 using these switches, if they are as good as they sound.
Guess key caps would be a problem though.
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Sub $200 and only if EU orders will ship directly from EU.
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didnt he say that they cost $600 and not $200? :D
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didnt he say that they cost $600 and not $200? :D
Yeah, I'm still trying to get in touch with the manufacturer. I can buy a minimum of 5 from one of their distributors, at $600+ each, not including shipping, taxes, etc. -- there has got to be a better way to get these at a more reasonable price.
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Any news? They sound like neat boards.
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Yes, some interesting news. Webwit from DT purchased one of these keyboards from another DT member and I was able to get his impression of the 'board.
He doesn't like it much. He said they felt like vintage MX Blacks, but a bit softer. He said that the travel distance of the keys wasn't great. He was ... underwhelmed.
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Ok, I've been reading this as I'm looking for hall effect keyboards. This may be a hall effect keyboard with high reliability but it is a real B**** to use continuously. It is hard bottomed and soft springed. You press down on the key to activate the switch but there is no tactile indication as to when the character is registered. This is good for reliability but absolutely useless for production. You need that physical indication as to when the key is registered. The action is that you press down on the key, encounter a point of resistance -- the key is registered -- and now you can withdraw your finger or allow it to be pushed back. Neither condition exists on this keyboard or they would announce it loudly to the world. I have Cherry MX-Blue and it is really painful to use after 12 hours. I expect that this one will be worse.
The company is addressing what they mistake as a need for a Hall Effect keyboard but they completely missed the "production" requirement. Who ever came up with this idea missed the boat.
Allthunbs
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I know Rouger has one of the Hall Effect Numpads as well. Maybe he'll see this and comment
I have one as well. They use Microswitch hall effect switches and are almost nothing like these RAFI ones. These RAFI ones have less travel, for one.
Ok, I've been reading this as I'm looking for hall effect keyboards. This may be a hall effect keyboard with high reliability but it is a real B**** to use continuously. It is hard bottomed and soft springed. You press down on the key to activate the switch but there is no tactile indication as to when the character is registered. This is good for reliability but absolutely useless for production. You need that physical indication as to when the key is registered. The action is that you press down on the key, encounter a point of resistance -- the key is registered -- and now you can withdraw your finger or allow it to be pushed back. Neither condition exists on this keyboard or they would announce it loudly to the world. I have Cherry MX-Blue and it is really painful to use after 12 hours. I expect that this one will be worse.
The company is addressing what they mistake as a need for a Hall Effect keyboard but they completely missed the "production" requirement. Who ever came up with this idea missed the boat.
Allthunbs
Some people quite like linear switches. I also know some who have a clicker in the KB to let them know when a key is pressed.
If you don't like linear switches, then most hall effect switches aren't for you. I have a small stock of tactile / clicky ones, but they are quite rare.
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So, is this actually going anywhere, are the hall-switched keyboard group buy happening or not?
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didnt he say that they cost $600 and not $200? :D
Yeah, I'm still trying to get in touch with the manufacturer. I can buy a minimum of 5 from one of their distributors, at $600+ each, not including shipping, taxes, etc. -- there has got to be a better way to get these at a more reasonable price.
Yes, some interesting news. Webwit from DT purchased one of these keyboards from another DT member and I was able to get his impression of the 'board.
He doesn't like it much. He said they felt like vintage MX Blacks, but a bit softer. He said that the travel distance of the keys wasn't great. He was ... underwhelmed.
So, is this actually going anywhere, are the hall-switched keyboard group buy happening or not?
Considering that the manufacturer never responded to any of my emails, and the only way I found of getting these keyboards was at a price of roughly $600 each and a minimum of 5 purchased at once, very little interest in these keyboards, and a bad review of the keyboard in question (takes breath) I'm going to say, "No."
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Considering that the manufacturer never responded to any of my emails, and the only way I found of getting these keyboards was at a price of roughly $600 each and a minimum of 5 purchased at once, very little interest in these keyboards, and a bad review of the keyboard in question (takes breath) I'm going to say, "No."
A shame, was looking to get the famous 'Hall-Effect" keyboard but built up as a new product ready for use. Thank you for at least trying to get it off the ground :thumb: .
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Considering that the manufacturer never responded to any of my emails, and the only way I found of getting these keyboards was at a price of roughly $600 each and a minimum of 5 purchased at once, very little interest in these keyboards, and a bad review of the keyboard in question (takes breath) I'm going to say, "No."
A shame, was looking to get the famous 'Hall-Effect" keyboard but built up as a new product ready for use. Thank you for at least trying to get it off the ground :thumb: .
The only real HE keyboard stuff out there was the HaaTa numpad sale.
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Considering that the manufacturer never responded to any of my emails, and the only way I found of getting these keyboards was at a price of roughly $600 each and a minimum of 5 purchased at once, very little interest in these keyboards, and a bad review of the keyboard in question (takes breath) I'm going to say, "No."
A shame, was looking to get the famous 'Hall-Effect" keyboard but built up as a new product ready for use. Thank you for at least trying to get it off the ground :thumb: .
The only real HE keyboard stuff out there was the HaaTa numpad sale.
he didn't have that many.
There's tons of it on eBay all the time. I've got like 10
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There's tons of it on eBay all the time. I've got like 10
But they're all vintage, right?
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There's tons of it on eBay all the time. I've got like 10
But they're all vintage, right?
One appears to be new.