[IC] Irma (Survey Form Added)

[Puddsy]

I like the idea a lot, and it seems like you're passionate about this. The name sucks but the board looks like it'll be pretty good. I'm partial to brass or carbon fiber plate due to plastic warping. Something stiff for the top piece to anchor to might be helpful. 27 and I experimented with it a bit when we were working on a plastic board (that project is long dead) and it seemed to be helpful.

Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.

[Ensaum]

A couple of thoughts. I'm not clear on whether or not a non-wkl version will be offered, but I'd like a regular tkl option. Also, would it be possible to mix and match the top and bottom case colors? I think it would look nice to have a black top with white bottom for rgb diffusion personally.

[dr_unconscionable]

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

[Ensaum]

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.

[Jaxxstatic]

Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress.  A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.

Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore.  We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.

The plan for screw holes is to do like Matt3O showed with his 3D printed board and using threaded inserts into slightly large holes heated up with a soldering iron.
Actually, one of the cool things I heard/saw that UHMW allows over some other plastics is that pieces can be "welded" with strips or chips of UHMW.
My thought is that if I make the holes large enough, I can correctly align then fill in the gaps around the thread inserts with UHMW chips. That's a long shot, though. Hopefully the manufacturer can provide tolerances that won't need that.

[ossetepo]

I <3 threaded inserts!

[Puddsy]

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.

u right

im not that cold a mother****er/poor a reader

glad you changed the thread title, this is much better

v interested in this

[Jaxxstatic]

I like the idea a lot, and it seems like you're passionate about this. The name sucks but the board looks like it'll be pretty good. I'm partial to brass or carbon fiber plate due to plastic warping. Something stiff for the top piece to anchor to might be helpful. 27 and I experimented with it a bit when we were working on a plastic board (that project is long dead) and it seemed to be helpful.

Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.

Agree on the "UHMW WKL TKL" part of the name. Changed the title.
I also like brass and carbon fiber and, price permitting, would love to offer them as options. I understand about carbon fiber in the US.
Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.
I got hit by a car on my carbon fiber bicycle in 2013. Fixing the seat stay and chain stay in Santa Cruz were quoted as costing $300 per piece....
I just did it myself.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
I plan on using the manufacturer 10 minutes away for as much as possible. I can negotiate with him face to face.

The manufacturers I'm looking at for EVERY part of this board are small shops (often one man businesses).
It's been cheaper so far to help a small manufacturer experiment with new materials and limited tooling than to go with an "experienced" manufacturer, get thrown into a queue, and get a flawed product.
I literally get to drive down to my manufacturer if there is a problem. I think that's why China GB's are so smooth...for Chinese.
No negativity towards them at all. I just would like to have that here in the US.
Hopefully, in a year's time, with the prices of CNC machines going down, and from what I learn during this process, I'll be my own manufacturer.

A couple of thoughts. I'm not clear on whether or not a non-wkl version will be offered, but I'd like a regular tkl option. Also, would it be possible to mix and match the top and bottom case colors? I think it would look nice to have a black top with white bottom for rgb diffusion personally.

WKL is not locked in. I just like how it looks. It's not a big deal to offer both actually.
And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).

The name sucks

Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... )

My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.

Yeah, the thread title was a bad mixup of sappy and cryptic. I'll do better.

[oldcat]

Images broken for me

[Puddsy]

i got quoted $130 for the alice plates by once place and didn't hear back from the second, so i see where you're coming from on the local manufacturing side of things

i also saw that you want to do an alice style board, so i'll probably hold out for that (and to see how this GB goes) but i'm very optimistic about this

i have more faith in this IC than i do like 90% of ICs, so consider this puddsy approved

it would be super sick if you could machine all the boards yourself

[Ensaum]

And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).

Oh yeah, totally understand. I want the white bottom for underglow purposes and the black top for seated viewing aesthetics.

This IC came just in time though. I was just about to order parts for a kbd65 build that I originally wanted to do as an underglow tkl but I couldn't find anything that worked with what I envisioned

How flexible is UHMW? My vote would be for this as the plate material if it flexes a fair bit. I've been wanting to do one of those trendy flexy builds, and it would help with the harsh bottom out of my holy gsus switches.

[TeeAreEffedUp]

Hey there from another Air Force vet.

Anyways I just looked through the current board proposal and think it looks great. I love the story behind the name and I'm honestly pretty curious on how UHMW is as a material as I only have manufacturing/milling experience with Lexan and HDPE making mtb bash guards. Regardless, I love how my poly and acrylic boards feel and sound, so assuming this could keep in the ballpark of $300, I'd gladly be in for a board.

I'll be following this board fairly closely.

[japanesehorrorwriter]

If sound and feels are high on your list, I am certain this Irma will be incredible. In for 2. For sure.

[Jaxxstatic]

Not sure why the first one showed no blocker between F4 and F5. All standard blockers will be there.

[tentboy]

consider me interested!

[jollyeskimo]

Interested in a white standard TKL - especially if the price is around 300 including PCB.

[coffeeshopcoder]

interested ! (WK - Mix n Match ) would be nice.
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?

[Puddsy]

Out of curiosity, what colors/opacities does UHMW come in? White is already an uncommon color for keyboards, but it might be cool to have a translucent version or something.

[Jaxxstatic]

Out of curiosity, what colors/opacities does UHMW come in? White is already an uncommon color for keyboards, but it might be cool to have a translucent version or something.

UHMW in raw form is translucent white but not quite clear like or frosted like polycarb (see render of bottom view).
Black is the other most common color for industrial use, but it can be any color as far as I know. However, any other color than white or black that I've seen looked horrible. But that may be just because no one tried to color match it to anything.
This first round will just be black and white. Those are also the cheapest color options. After this round, I will definitely look into color matching popular sets. I personally would love a Solarized Dark version.

interested ! (WK - Mix n Match ) would be nice.
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?

I will definitely be posting a video review of the prototypes.
I've bought handmade high-end custom knives before, and one of the great things that many knife makers do is include a build log with either photos or links to videos.
I would love to do the something similar.
For mixing and matching colors and tops (WKL/WK): yes.

[PopSandwich]

Wow this looks amazing! I love the idea of a rugged keyboard that can take a beating.

Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?

[omitrix212]

Really digging the board's design! Sorry if this is a stupid question but looking at the renders, where would the usb port be?

[Jaxxstatic]

Wow this looks amazing! I love the idea of a rugged keyboard that can take a beating.
Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?

I will post weights when I get the prototypes in, for sure.

Really digging the board's design! Sorry if this is a stupid question but looking at the renders, where would the usb port be?

New renders will be up when I get some more "cloud credits" from AutoDesk, but the USB port will be on the back towards the right side if you're looking at the board as if you were typing.
The case will fit the H87a PCB.

[Jaxxstatic]

Friday update:

-Speaking with two prototype manufacturers here in Northern California and dialing in tolerances based off the designs and their experience with UHMW.
-Irma mentioned on Top Clack and MOI channels! Stoked!
    *Clarification for Jae: stiff feel is not what I'm going for, so sandwich mount and integrated plate are out. The concern was that thermal warping might be lessened with a thicker plate material. Also, the renders are done in Fusion 360. The material applied is UHMW. I'm just not great at renders.
-For sure not going with integrated plate based off manufacturing costs. Also makes sense for feel. I tested my hand cut plates, and the 1.5mm plate feels great.
-Negotiating with a certain US supplier for carbon fiber plate materials. Will have them cut elsewhere, though.
-Trying to work on renders outside of Fusion 360. I downloaded 3ds Max, but UHMW doesn't work in the materials database for lighting effects, even with Arnold or VRay. Any help is appreciated, but I'm about to give up on 3ds Max and try something else.
-Updated the main post with picture material reference and old ghetto video of diffusion. Please click here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99637.msg2729983#msg2729983

[TuCZnak]

I've just realized that A87 is miniUSB. Do you know of any compatible PCB that has USB-C? It'd be a shame to have such nice board end up with an old connector. Would KBD8X PCB fit?

[tex_live_utility]

Would be nice to have metal plates to go with this as well (alu/sts/brass). Maybe not as part of main GB, but if the plate files were released someone else could run it.

[Jaxxstatic]

I've just realized that A87 is miniUSB. Do you know of any compatible PCB that has USB-C? It'd be a shame to have such nice board end up with an old connector. Would KBD8X PCB fit?

I know nothing about the KBD8X PCB, but I'll look into it. Honestly, I still like mini-USB. I've had overcurrent issues with a couple USB-C PCBs. Never had an issue like that with mini-USB. But I understand many people wanting to move to one cable for everything and not having to look at orientation when plugging in.

*The USB port is something I'm really working on actually.
I was so stoked to finally get a good Yarbo cable, then tried to plug it into a couple Kustoms, only to find out the port hole was too small.
Or on other boards, the PCB was mounted too far away, and I had to shave off the end of a Lindy cable.
Or the port hole was too big, so you have to look and line up the cable anyway or risk jamming the USB-C male end under or above where you're trying to plug in.
Trabbit's THE50 is my favorite because no matter which cable I use, I don't have to tip the back of the board up or look and make sure I'm perfectly aligned. Many different cables easily fall right into place, and there's always a satisfying click when I plug in. I can leave my computer muted and still know my keyboard is ready to go.

Would be nice to have metal plates to go with this as well (alu/sts/brass). Maybe not as part of main GB, but if the plate files were released someone else could run it.

Plate files will definitely be released. I'll be testing out different plate materials on it. The ones that I like the best will come standard. I love it when "base kit" for a board has two different plates, so I want to do that with the Irma.

[Jaxxstatic]

"Friday" update:
The black case now has a brass weight optional insert. Black case and white case are substantially different on purpose. Sound is the main factor. But they are interchangeable. I do want to offer WKL & WK tops because WKL is oh so sexy, but I do use the Windows key a lot on Windows machines.
Goal is to have a prototype in hand before the 25th. The main guy I'm talking to thinks it's definitely possible. He runs his machines at 2am to 10am, then does checks so I can have updates by noon. His shop is a 15-20 minute drive away.
Nathan said on Twitch if someone splits right shift on a TKL, we can't be friends, so that has been updated
Saw Huey make good use of switch top opening on a stream, so I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.
Brian made the moneymoney hand gesture when mentioning the likely price due to US manufacturing. He's right, but I've found a couple ways to cut down cost without compromising quality. First has to do with timing. Second has to do with timing. I will not elaborate.

[Sintpinty]

I like the overall look of the case. Looks very nice btw.

[pixelpusher]

Bah.  Switch top opening is so darn helpful.  Oh well, can’t win them all

[Ensaum]

I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.

But switch top opening is super useful for lubing switches on an assembled board. Otherwise you'd have to desolder.

[godisafk]

Definitely into this! Do you have a way to describe the sound of this plastic with a video or anything? Glad to hear your wife is doing better and thanks for taking the time to be thoughtful with this project.

[TuCZnak]

Thanks for the update, appreciate you're sticking to your word about communication ;-)
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.

As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?

[Jaxxstatic]

Thanks for the update, appreciate you're sticking to your word about communication ;-)
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.

As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?

Sound dampening is one of the advertised characteristics of UHMW.
The thing that grabbed me about it is how deep it sounds when struck. Lower pitched sounds aren't as audible as higher pitched. (For example, in SERE school, they teach you never to whisper when evading. Instead talk in a lower pitched voice softly).

[menuhin]

Interesting material! Would love to see how light diffuses in a prototype compared to sandblasted Polycarb or acrylic

Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker

[Jaxxstatic]

**Added pics of the black case in a WK version with brass weight to the first post**
Sound and heft (compared to other plastic boards) are the emphases, so the bottom is much different. Brass weight is designed in for prototype just in case all UHMW doesn't have enough heft.
Been messing with SKCM alps and discovered how amazing they sound in plastic cases. Working on Alps plate design (please give input on stabs & mod size suggestions).

[Jaxxstatic]

Interesting material! Would love to see how light diffuses in a prototype compared to sandblasted Polycarb or acrylic

Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker

1. Split backspace is provided. Hineybush's H87a PCB has it and the plate accommodates it.
2. Interesting. It might look hideous, but I honestly never use right Winkey when it's available.
I'll sketch it up when I get the chance. It just looks like this in my head though:

[Jkshowman]

I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!

[Jaxxstatic]

I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!

Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype

[Puddsy]

The brass weight design is slick

[TuCZnak]

Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?

[kinglukas38]

not much of a tkl fan but very interested in how the alice-like proto turns out. A keyboard from this material sounds very appealing to me

[6FeaT]

Been fascinating to read the discussions in here about plastics. Interested in this, for sure!

[Jkshowman]

I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!

Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype

Eh, still count me in going to start saving up!

[Ensaum]

Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?

+1 That's a damn good looking case design.

[Damage]

Cool concept. I’m definitely interested!

[spctr13]

The black one looks great. I think I'd join a group buy for this.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[odd]

Im down to pick one up both for the uniqueness of the keyboard as well as the history behind the naming of it

[Jaxxstatic]

Late Update (sorry):
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
   -TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
   -BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
   -So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.

[tentboy]

Late Update (sorry):
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
   -TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
   -BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
   -So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.

If like you said it is an easy modification, i think gasket would be really cool on this board!

[Jaxxstatic]

Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?

A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.
Edit...uh, not sure how to add the poll. Any help?