geekhack

geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:26:41

Title: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:26:41
Vote on Massdrop (https://www.massdrop.com/vote/GMK-Space-Cadet)

Here's the original, Symbolic's 'Space Cadet' keyboard. - thanks to Chyrosran22 for supplying high resolution photos of the board he had temporarily for his video.
(https://i.imgur.com/KvVTYUo.jpg)

Big update!

The group buy is scheduled to launch on Massdrop in August. The exact day is usually decided a week ahead of the drop, so I will update when I have a specific date. But it should be [the end date of SA Green Screen] + [a few days]. If you haven't already, you can vote for it on Massdrop to be notified when it goes live: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/GMK-Space-Cadet

I've taken in all of the feedback generated so far, and from that created the currently soft-locked revision of kits you can see below. Ever since the last update, which has been quite a while ago now, the following things have changed:

- t0mb3ry assisted me by creating vector work for the unique APL symbols, as well as further fine tuning the hand icons and roman numerals for the Symbols kit. All renders now feature these custom legends.
- I have further optimized the coverage of the base kit, it currently covers WK, WKL, Fullsize, 96key, 1800, CP, 60%, 65%, 75%, HHKB-style, the C70, 60% with arrows, and a few more I can't think of right now.
- I removed Cadet specific alpha keys from the base kit to cut down cost, and I believe not many people would have ended up making good use of them anyways. I now have standard US-ANSI alphas with two extra pipe keys for physical ISO support.
- I removed Gray keys from the Symbols kit. Instead I increased layout support, such as vertical macro/function rows on VE.A/TC-V3/RedScarf II.
- I removed Community keys from the Symbols kit. There seems to be a lack of interest in these nowadays anyways.
- I added blue spacebars to the Black Modifiers, and renamed the kit to True Cadet.
- I added a Cherry Icon kit for those that dislike the text-only modifiers I chose for the base kit. I did not go for Icon+Text (the 'standard' GMK legends used on Carbon/Laser/Nautilus etc) as I felt they didn't change too much about the look. Instead I went for the style of old Cherry keyboards such as the G80-1800 where the center part uses icons only, while top and bottom row remain text only. GMK Muted is a set that used this style for example, and I have demonstrated this in some of the renders.
- I added blue spacebars to the Blue Alphas kit.
- I removed blue spacebars from the Spacebars and -Keys kit, which is now a Spacekeys kit only.
-- The addition of blue spacebars to True Cadet and Blue Alphas now ensures nobody needing them forgets to purchase them, and it cuts the number of kits you need to buy from 3 down to 2, which saves about 15-20$ in a GMK buy in 'kit split taxes'.
- NorDeUK is untouched
- I am introducing the Assembly Kit, which is a kit independent from the Base Kit that fully covers the Ergodox keyboard.
- I am also introducing the 40bit Kit, which is also independent from the Base Kit and covers Planck, Preonic and a variety of 40% keyboards.
-- Both these kits have brand new ASM inspired modifier legends. I mocked up a blank modifier version for both, but with the busy Cadet alphas in the center it looked very imbalanced. These kits will not be cheap, probably more expensive than the base kit as they will hit way lower MOQ's (100 for both would be a big success already) while the base kit will most likely hit 500 units, and hopefully also 1000. So please keep in mind that you are probably going to be paying the price of a kit that is only produced a hundred times, but I think it is very much worth the extra cost for the modifier legends, and I hope many of you agree. I will then also be able to use these legends in GMK Oblivion V2 next year. And again, the base kit is NOT required, all you need is either the Assembly or the 40bit kit for your special layout, and I've seen people shell out 180-200$ in previous GMK runs where Ergodox modifiers had to be purchased in addition to the base set.
- Colevrak kit will not be offered. It would be 99$ due to even more custom legends, more keys than usual Colevrak kits, and have an MOQ of 100.

Lastly, the excellent outragedpudding has created a packaging design for the GMK trays. The Assembly and 40bit kits will probably also be coming in trays, but this is TBD.

Please enjoy the renders, and let me know if you have any questions or feedback! I already received pricing for all the kits apart from the Assembly and 40bit kits (I had those layouts covered in a bigger single kit, but the price was not viable). While I can not reveal pricing for the other kits at this point, I can however assure you that you will be very pleased with the 1000 unit price point of the Base Kit.

40% and Ergodox renders will follow once I have the pricing for those and am certain these will be offered.


Kit renders:

(https://i.imgur.com/ei3SeyQ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/emqZU1M.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/YI53maF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nhnGIqm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ta1lgsR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3AqcbUL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Z8BugsD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bVK1FSM.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wnS9UXI.jpg)


Packaging preview:

(https://i.imgur.com/TY0f1b4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oukfvjs.jpg)


Keyboard renders:

(https://i.imgur.com/mfPH3xy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tN6S3iS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dwrPyAF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/O0Me0Os.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aK6upCn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tyK9Z6p.jpg)

PS: There will be a couple collaborations with other products for the sets, stay tuned.


Old stuff:

More
Renders for a possible GMK version
(https://i.imgur.com/kd06EZn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KRz1ohy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/12eI1zP.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/yAuKuta.jpg)

I recently built my own 'end game' keyboard with 7bit's Round 6 caps, when I decided it was time to bring this classic colorway to the realm of cherry keycaps. I've already drawn up the kits I would like to see in the group buy for this set, but these are of course not final. There are still a few question marks to deal with.

(https://i.imgur.com/LCSK8S9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/b0rAyvJ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UnvWA9w.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/gqfWLug.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PQUpV3D.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/N2Y2bcI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZMHlsQ9.jpg)

It was important to me that the original keyboard can be replicated closely, hence the extra alpha keys, Black Text Modifiers kit and having blue spacebars available separately instead of putting those into the Blue Alphas kit to not make a purchase of them mandatory.

FAQ:

Q: Where?
A: Massdrop. I know this will result in uproar from some of you, but a GB like this is just not be doable otherwise. There are certainly vendors that have grown over the past year to a level where they can easily carry a base kit with a few addons, but this is 7 different kits of which I would call none dead weight. Coupled with the fact that this set requires A LOT of custom molds, a reach like Massdrop's is vital to make this pass all MOQ's.

Q: When?
A: Depends on how fierce you guys vote! https://www.massdrop.com/vote/GMK-Space-Cadet

Q: Doubleshot? 
A: Yes, everything. New molds for alphas etc, no half-assing on my watch.

Q: Colevrak kit?
A: Due to the secondary APL legends, a Colevrak kit would need 20+ new molds made as well. With Colevrak kits having an MOQ of 100 and only ever having reached that number once with Laser, we're talking about a 30euro (40-45$ or so) extra, making the kit cost 80-90$.

Q: 40% support?
A: I'm not quite sure yet how to add 40% support to this set. I don't want to add that many keys to the base kit which already will be costing more than regular. Maybe a separate kit could be realistic.

Q: Blue alphas?
A: This was exactly what Bob Ross meant by his famous saying "We don't make mistakes, just happy little accidents.". I always start my renders with one color for all keys, apply the legends and then split off the alphas/accents etc to change their color. So when I saw the entire keyboard in blue, I knew I have to have it.

Q: Blue NorDeUK?
A: Blue alphas are the icing of this cake, getting the gray kit to pass MOQ will be struggle enough.

Q: Why text-only modifiers?
A: I'm trying to stick to the design of the original where possible, so using Cherry arrows for Tab/Backspace/Return/Shift keys did not seem appropriate to me. Nobody I showed this to even mentioned that those were missing so it appears people like how this looks. I hope you agree!

EDIT: Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well. I have various ideas on how it could be done, I will investigate how it plays out with pricing. But since this is still a very young IC, don't expect an answer in the coming week or so, just note that I have heard you and will pursue options.

Q: Colors?
A: Custom, I'll have GMK color match BFP from Signature Plastics for the blue keys, Gray is closest to GD which I had them mix already for GMK Oblivion alphas so I'll probably be reusing that as well. Legends are TBD, probably N9 (near black) and CP (off-white).

Q: Price?
A: I can't say for sure, but let's do some napkin math. GMK Red Samurai Base Kit has 164 keys, this has 162 keys, so the price of the keys themselves would practically be identical. However we have 36 new molds that need to be made, each costing 150€, a total of 5,400€/6600$. So if we took the prices from GMK Red Samurai that's on Massdrop right now and added this cost we end up with 500:143$/1000:127$/1500:115$. But again, napkin math. 500:149$/1000:129$/1500:119$ is a good guess though IMO.

Special thanks to t0mb3ry for turning the Symbols (roman numerals and hand signals for the Symbols kit) into vector format and Chyrosran22 for supplying high resolution photos to work off of!

Thank you for reading,

/discuss


PS: Support the project by adding a banner to your forum profile!

Code: [Select]
[url=https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94003.0][img width=480 height=120]https://i.imgur.com/K1A1EFr.png[/img][/url]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: T0mb3ry on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:29:00
Really a must have set in my opinion. I really appreciate it!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: packman86 on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:30:21
Looks incredible!

Any chance of adding Frow alternate color?
F1-F4 & F9-F12 = alpha color
F5-F8 = Mod color

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:36:50
Looks incredible!

Any chance of adding Frow alternate color?
F1-F4 & F9-F12 = alpha color
F5-F8 = Mod color

Sandwich mod colors should never have been a thing to begin with  :rolleyes: (I regret making it default on SA Oblivion and the only option on GMK Oblivion) On a set like this, having it full mod color is of high importance, I'm not quite sure how to add 12 gray F keys on a GMK GB, in base it would add 15$, separately it would cost 20$ and probably not make MOQ.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:39:32
Hyper7 kit? ;)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:40:03
Well done, Oblotzky!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: The_judge_168 on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:41:37
Looks great! Always wanted the SA set but much prefer GMK
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:45:54
This is going to be incredible.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Myoth on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:47:59
Wouldn't it feel more "original" if the modifiers were Black on Blue in the base kit ?

Title: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: h3xadat on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:48:46
Incredibly good!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:55:14
Wouldn't it feel more "original" if the modifiers were Black on Blue in the base kit ?

The majority will want an all-white text kit, and I feel confident that there are enough OG supporters to get 100 units of the black rows made. Initially I had it black in the base kit, and also blue spacebars there, but IMO this represents the public demand better.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: DJSwayde on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:55:24
Wew. I need to get this.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Jedi on Sat, 10 February 2018, 13:59:22
Sets like this make me want to ditch investing in bitcoin and just invest in ABS plastic. Thank you for bringing this to GMK Cherry profile :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: subcat on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:03:31
yesyesyes
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: braidn on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:13:23
Love that the black text modifiers are going to be an offering. Such great work here.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Khers on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:17:44
.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:20:42
i had no idea i wanted this but i REALLY WANT THIS
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:23:15
Looks awesome even if I wish there would be icon mods. As this set has two possible alpha sets I would like to add a second tab key to the base set. With this you could do two full modifier sets cause you already have a lot of shift keys and two full bottom row sets. Else the second alpha set would be pointless to me
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:23:46
This needs to happen. I love space cadet, cherry profile makes it an instabuy for me!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mech0nly on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:28:24
Hardly tempted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:29:03
Question popped up in my mind: I'm assuming that you'll be paying for a new doubleshot mold for these? Or are you going the pad printed route? (Please say doubleshot)

Edit: upon closer examination of the first post, it seems like your planning on new molds. YESSSSS!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:33:59
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ArdentHandsaw on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:39:51
Yes please.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:41:16
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

His math is correct, please read again. And definetly no to the vim position.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:41:43
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

It would be nice to have those in an add-on kit, but I think it's nicer to stick closely to the source material like Oblotzky has done here.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:44:02
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

Uhm Laser/Red Samurai are japanese legends, this is APL legends. Molds can't be shared.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:45:41
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

just because you make the text big doesn't make it correct

these are completely different legends

and space cadet is cool as ****, get that vim standard out of here
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ricrackem on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:51:13
This is the set I never knew I needed
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Myoth on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:53:43
**** this ****

do you ever think/read before opening your mouth and spewing bull**** ?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:54:48
Looks awesome even if I wish there would be icon mods. As this set has two possible alpha sets I would like to add a second tab key to the base set. With this you could do two full modifier sets cause you already have a lot of shift keys and two full bottom row sets. Else the second alpha set would be pointless to me

Even for a 60% layout you'd need a second Backspace, Return, 2.75u Shift and 6 more 1.25u keys... not quite sure how one more tab key would get you there?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:56:10
Looks awesome even if I wish there would be icon mods. As this set has two possible alpha sets I would like to add a second tab key to the base set. With this you could do two full modifier sets cause you already have a lot of shift keys and two full bottom row sets. Else the second alpha set would be pointless to me

Even for a 60% layout you'd need a second Backspace, Return, 2.75u Shift and 6 more 1.25u keys... not quite sure how one more tab key would get you there?

I think Blue Alphas + Black Mods would be a viable "base" alternative, but it's missing a tab key.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Khers on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:56:30
.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 14:57:14
Looks awesome even if I wish there would be icon mods. As this set has two possible alpha sets I would like to add a second tab key to the base set. With this you could do two full modifier sets cause you already have a lot of shift keys and two full bottom row sets. Else the second alpha set would be pointless to me

Even for a 60% layout you'd need a second Backspace, Return, 2.75u Shift and 6 more 1.25u keys... not quite sure how one more tab key would get you there?

I think Blue Alphas + Black Mods would be a viable "base" alternative, but it's missing a tab key.

And Return and Backspace, and then only works for 60%
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:04:03
The 150€/mold number is wrong. That is the price that has been paid because they were being re-used in the coming sets. Your price will be higher.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:05:23
The 150€/mold number is wrong. That is the price that has been paid because they were being re-used in the coming sets. Your price will be higher.

This is the number Christoph told me in person at the Frankfurt meetup
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:05:39
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

Uhm Laser/Red Samurai are japanese legends, this is APL legends. Molds can't be shared.

what are you talking about
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:08:46
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

Uhm Laser/Red Samurai are japanese legends, this is APL legends. Molds can't be shared.

what are you talking about

I'm saying that a engraving into stainless steel can't magically produce something other than what it is shaped as.

(https://i.imgur.com/nAknenh.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/qxkItob.jpg)

Do you not see the difference between the two/three?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:09:30
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

Uhm Laser/Red Samurai are japanese legends, this is APL legends. Molds can't be shared.

what are you talking about

the person that pays for the molds owns them

so if i make a novelty and pay for it to be used in my set, oblotzky can't use it (unless i give him permission)

IP rights, my friend
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:12:25
In previous cases, the molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader. If you want ip, like I said, you'll pay more than that.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:13:50
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

Uhm Laser/Red Samurai are japanese legends, this is APL legends. Molds can't be shared.

what are you talking about

I'm saying that a engraving into stainless steel can't magically produce something other than what it is shaped as.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/nAknenh.png)


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/qxkItob.jpg)


Do you not see the difference between the two/three?

when did I tell you that you could use theg gmk laser/samurai molds for the space cadet? It would look better by the way :-)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:14:13
The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:16:33
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)

Uhm Laser/Red Samurai are japanese legends, this is APL legends. Molds can't be shared.

what are you talking about

I'm saying that a engraving into stainless steel can't magically produce something other than what it is shaped as.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/nAknenh.png)


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/qxkItob.jpg)


Do you not see the difference between the two/three?

when did I tell you that you could use theg gmk laser/samurai molds for the space cadet? It would look better by the way :-)

I think I'm starting to get what you are on about. I'm taking Red Samurai's pricing as a basis to calculate the price for this set. But you're forgetting the fact that weeb legends in both Laser and Red Samurai are addon kits, while the base kits are regular Cherry font. I am basing my math on regular base kit + tooling cost for new legends. Red Samurai using Laser's molds only affect pricing of the child kits (Nishi and Pure Hiragana) that set offers, the price of the base set is unaffected.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BlackInk on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:18:35
yesssss very interested
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dr_derivative on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:21:56
This is one of the sexiest sets I've seen in a long time :o

Definitely in :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:26:21
Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well. I have various ideas on how it could be done, I will investigate how it plays out with pricing. But since this is still a very young IC, don't expect an answer in the coming week or so, just note that I have heard you and will pursue options.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:27:16
The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.

In the Massdrop forum about Redsuns GMK you'll find that the molds are shared between Laser and Redsuns set, and there are threads about gmk investing in them in the Laser forum too.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:33:24
The price asked by gmk for the alphas (50 keys) is this: 38 USD/set MOQ 150 sets

This is the price as a standalone set. When made as an addon, the price will be considerably lower (at least 20% lower).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mago on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:33:54
Definitely in, such a nice set.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:44:03

I would definitely prefer text only mods, it stays true to space cadet and we've seen how great it can look on sets like Oblivion. I'm pretty tired of everyone spamming, "icon mods or I won't buy!" in every GMK thread...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:44:19
Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well.

Yes, well, that demand is coming from folks who lack a singular affinity for the original Space Cadet keyboard, and place Cherry legend conformity above the spirit of the tribute you're paying. However, you've already compromised the OG aesthetic by using corner legends, so I suppose offering Cherry-style mod legends is only one more step up that slippery slope. If you do decide to do this, I would request you put them into their own kit so the cost burden is shouldered only by those who insist on having them.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:46:18
Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well.

Yes, well, that demand is coming from folks who lack a singular affinity for the original Space Cadet keyboard, and place Cherry legend conformity above the spirit of the tribute you're paying. However, you've already compromised the OG aesthetic by using corner legends, so I suppose offering Cherry-style mod legends is only one more step up that slippery slope. If you do decide to do this, I would request you put them into their own kit so the cost burden is shouldered only by those who insist on having them.

Cherry-style modifiers will come second in priority, so for example as a 10-key addon kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: unmuscular_michael on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:47:28
YES, PLEASE MAKE THIS HAPPEN
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:49:17
Icon + text is ugly.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:50:48
Icon + text is ugly.

People want what they want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but no worries, like I said it will be optional.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:50:57
I don't use cylindrical keycaps, but I will absolutely have to have this set. It is Space Cadet after all...  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 15:53:09
The price asked by gmk for the alphas (50 keys) is this: 38 USD/set MOQ 150 sets

This is the price as a standalone set. When made as an addon, the price will be considerably lower (at least 20% lower).

i got a quote from GMK last month and it was more than this

The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.

In the Massdrop forum about Redsuns GMK you'll find that the molds are shared between Laser and Redsuns set, and there are threads about gmk investing in them in the Laser forum too.


those are not novelties


Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Myoth on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:03:29
Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well. I have various ideas on how it could be done, I will investigate how it plays out with pricing. But since this is still a very young IC, don't expect an answer in the coming week or so, just note that I have heard you and will pursue options.

Will you make the ISO enter with a black legend too ? this would be really nice
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:05:25
The price asked by gmk for the alphas (50 keys) is this: 38 USD/set MOQ 150 sets

This is the price as a standalone set. When made as an addon, the price will be considerably lower (at least 20% lower).

i got a quote from GMK last month and it was more than this

The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.

In the Massdrop forum about Redsuns GMK you'll find that the molds are shared between Laser and Redsuns set, and there are threads about gmk investing in them in the Laser forum too.


those are not novelties

Your quote was higher because you don't live in europe? How many caps did your set include?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:09:26
Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well. I have various ideas on how it could be done, I will investigate how it plays out with pricing. But since this is still a very young IC, don't expect an answer in the coming week or so, just note that I have heard you and will pursue options.

Will you make the ISO enter with a black legend too ? this would be really nice

Only the bottom rows are black in the original, Return (both ANSI and ISO) are above those rows.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Myoth on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:11:38
Due to popular demand, I will look into how I can offer Cherry-style Icon+Text mods as well. I have various ideas on how it could be done, I will investigate how it plays out with pricing. But since this is still a very young IC, don't expect an answer in the coming week or so, just note that I have heard you and will pursue options.

Will you make the ISO enter with a black legend too ? this would be really nice

Only the bottom rows are black in the original, Return (both ANSI and ISO) are above those rows.

Oh yeah right, my bad  :-[
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: LightningXI on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:11:54
Been waiting for this anxiously. Very very very interested.

Sent from my mobile using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Petch on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:17:21
Love the colours but don't really care for the alpha legends. I'd rather it was like Laser with a standard alpha set and an extra alpha set with the legends, rather than another set of the same but in blue
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:18:21
Looks great with text only modifiers.  Definitely in for base + blue alphas as is.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:38:28
Love the colours but don't really care for the alpha legends. I'd rather it was like Laser with a standard alpha set and an extra alpha set with the legends, rather than another set of the same but in blue

Again, Oblotzky is simply trying to stay faithful to the original design, but in cherry profile. If you want normal Latin alphas, this is not the set you're looking for. Not trying to put your idea down, but it wouldn't be space cadet without these alphas.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:52:19
This really is going to be the keyset of the year. Great to finally see this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 16:56:39
The price asked by gmk for the alphas (50 keys) is this: 38 USD/set MOQ 150 sets

This is the price as a standalone set. When made as an addon, the price will be considerably lower (at least 20% lower).

i got a quote from GMK last month and it was more than this

The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.

In the Massdrop forum about Redsuns GMK you'll find that the molds are shared between Laser and Redsuns set, and there are threads about gmk investing in them in the Laser forum too.


those are not novelties

Your quote was higher because you don't live in europe? How many caps did your set include?

what?

GMK's prices are the same globally (I've verified this with others), and that's the pricing I got for a 50 key alpha set, like you mentioned.

You confuse me sometimes, giorgio.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 10 February 2018, 17:25:30
Perhaps a dumb question, but if you're doing all new molds for the alphas, why not orient them as on the original space cadet with alternate symbol directly above letter, instead of diagonal with letter upper left and symbol lower right?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 17:26:52
Perhaps a dumb question, but if you're doing all new molds for the alphas, why not orient them as on the original space cadet with alternate symbol directly above letter, instead of diagonal with letter upper left and symbol lower right?

Putting the primary legend in the top left and secondary in the bottom right is a design pattern established by Cherry for their profile I do not intend to break.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: oatmicro on Sat, 10 February 2018, 17:28:00
Voted for Base set on Massdrop, Anyway no vote option for Novelties?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 10 February 2018, 17:31:17
Voted for Base set on Massdrop, Anyway no vote option for Novelties?

Addon kits are of little importance for MD polls, seeing the number of potential buyers of the main kits (base and ergopreonic) is the part that matters the most.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Sat, 10 February 2018, 17:37:41
Voted for Base set on Massdrop, Anyway no vote option for Novelties?

I can't imagine they'd run this set without offering them. Most GMK sets run with some kind of novelties set so I wouldn't worry.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: LiL_BrOwNiE247 on Sat, 10 February 2018, 17:55:22
I guess I know what my tax refund will be used for. Very excited to see this come to fruition.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sat, 10 February 2018, 18:02:49
Perhaps a dumb question, but if you're doing all new molds for the alphas, why not orient them as on the original space cadet with alternate symbol directly above letter, instead of diagonal with letter upper left and symbol lower right?

My guess is that GMK Space Cadet is what we imagine Tom Knight would have created had he put his legends on a modern Cherry-profile keycap family.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: MajorKoos on Sat, 10 February 2018, 18:08:30
Looks great.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Sat, 10 February 2018, 18:11:32
The price asked by gmk for the alphas (50 keys) is this: 38 USD/set MOQ 150 sets

This is the price as a standalone set. When made as an addon, the price will be considerably lower (at least 20% lower).

i got a quote from GMK last month and it was more than this

The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.

In the Massdrop forum about Redsuns GMK you'll find that the molds are shared between Laser and Redsuns set, and there are threads about gmk investing in them in the Laser forum too.


those are not novelties

Your quote was higher because you don't live in europe? How many caps did your set include?

what?

GMK's prices are the same globally (I've verified this with others), and that's the pricing I got for a 50 key alpha set, like you mentioned.

You confuse me sometimes, giorgio.

It can't be a difference of more than 10%.
They aren't the same. Don't make me talk about VAT for example.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: idlemao on Sat, 10 February 2018, 18:28:00
Voted. I was just looking for Space Cadet caps, and the timing is perfect. Definitely excited for this!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 18:37:51
More
The price asked by gmk for the alphas (50 keys) is this: 38 USD/set MOQ 150 sets

This is the price as a standalone set. When made as an addon, the price will be considerably lower (at least 20% lower).

i got a quote from GMK last month and it was more than this

The molds have been shared between sets because gmk decided to invest in them. There is no IP because they haven't been paid in full by the group buy leader.

Source? Please link something to prove the validity.

In the Massdrop forum about Redsuns GMK you'll find that the molds are shared between Laser and Redsuns set, and there are threads about gmk investing in them in the Laser forum too.


those are not novelties

Your quote was higher because you don't live in europe? How many caps did your set include?

what?

GMK's prices are the same globally (I've verified this with others), and that's the pricing I got for a 50 key alpha set, like you mentioned.

You confuse me sometimes, giorgio.

It can't be a difference of more than 10%.
They aren't the same. Don't make me talk about VAT for example.

all GMK quotes are without VAT

i was quoted $44 (after converting from euros, since all GMK quotes are in euros) for 50 keys, which is a difference of more than 10%
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sat, 10 February 2018, 18:38:35
Your quote was higher because you don't live in europe? How many caps did your set include?

what?

GMK's prices are the same globally (I've verified this with others), and that's the pricing I got for a 50 key alpha set, like you mentioned.

You confuse me sometimes, giorgio.

It can't be a difference of more than 10%.
They aren't the same. Don't make me talk about VAT for example.

Please explain.

Prices are the same no matter where you are. VAT is added after if you have to pay VAT.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: finalarcadia on Sat, 10 February 2018, 19:05:58
I'll join for sure. Prefer the text only mods  :thumb: Will also get blue alphas
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Pwner on Sat, 10 February 2018, 19:51:22
Yessss!  I normally prefer icon + text but damn you Oblotzky, just like with Oblivion, I don't mind text only on this.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 10 February 2018, 20:49:36
Perhaps a dumb question, but if you're doing all new molds for the alphas, why not orient them as on the original space cadet with alternate symbol directly above letter, instead of diagonal with letter upper left and symbol lower right?

My guess is that GMK Space Cadet is what we imagine Tom Knight would have created had he put his legends on a modern Cherry-profile keycap family.
I doubt it, because the symbols on the space cadet keyboard were placed where they were to indicate the proper chorded use (e.g. super-a = symbol above a, just like shift-1 = ! on a PC keyboard). The Cherry "corners" method was for alternately  interpreted symbols by the attached computer; something like Cyrillic sublegends for a computer that's set to Russian language. But I understand why esthetically it's being presented this way for this set. Ultimately it doesn't really matter since the symbols are just decorative anyway.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 10 February 2018, 20:51:31
Q: Colevrak kit?
A: Due to the secondary APL legends, a Colevrak kit would need 20+ new molds made as well. With Colevrak kits having an MOQ of 100 and only ever having reached that number once with Laser, we're talking about a 30euro (40-45$ or so) extra, making the kit cost 80-90$.

Are we talking that if we add a Colerak kit, it would cost 40-45$ alone? Or the Colerak kit costs 80-90$ alone? If it's 40-45$, IMO that is not a very high price, considering the previous Colerak kit costs some price at the same level.

This keyset is the set of this year to me personally. Almost perfect except there is no Colevrak kit.

As a Dvorak user, I don't mind to pay more to get this kit up and running. The Space-Cadet theme is rare, the Colerak kit in such a theme is rarer, due to the APL legends. If there is a small chance to get it there, please think twice before putting it away.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: menuhin on Sat, 10 February 2018, 21:14:09
For real - GMK can do that?
I'm in  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 10 February 2018, 21:21:14
Q: Colevrak kit?
A: Due to the secondary APL legends, a Colevrak kit would need 20+ new molds made as well. With Colevrak kits having an MOQ of 100 and only ever having reached that number once with Laser, we're talking about a 30euro (40-45$ or so) extra, making the kit cost 80-90$.

Are we talking that if we add a Colerak kit, it would cost 40-45$ alone? Or the Colerak kit costs 80-90$ alone? If it's 40-45$, IMO that is not a very high price, considering the previous Colerak kit costs some price at the same level.

This keyset is the set of this year to me personally. Almost perfect except there is no Colevrak kit.

As a Dvorak user, I don't mind to pay more to get this kit up and running. The Space-Cadet theme is rare, the Colerak kit in such a theme is rarer, due to the APL legends. If there is a small chance to get it there, please think twice before putting it away.

Probably a lot more than $50 on its own. My guess is above $75.
Title: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sat, 10 February 2018, 21:44:51
How many GMK sets would be ahead of this on Massdrop line?

Plan on buying as many base kits and add-ons as I can afford (admittedly, that’s likely only 2 full kits..)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: OracleKev on Sat, 10 February 2018, 21:55:42
Wow, just wow.
Any chance to do the side prints as well?  Small greek letters?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: soba on Sat, 10 February 2018, 23:59:22
in!
(https://i.imgur.com/BlPdK00.png)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: alphabirth on Sun, 11 February 2018, 02:12:11
Really rad set!  I'd be interested to see a symbols-only option too.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 04:42:22
Q: Colevrak kit?
A: Due to the secondary APL legends, a Colevrak kit would need 20+ new molds made as well. With Colevrak kits having an MOQ of 100 and only ever having reached that number once with Laser, we're talking about a 30euro (40-45$ or so) extra, making the kit cost 80-90$.

Are we talking that if we add a Colerak kit, it would cost 40-45$ alone? Or the Colerak kit costs 80-90$ alone? If it's 40-45$, IMO that is not a very high price, considering the previous Colerak kit costs some price at the same level.

This keyset is the set of this year to me personally. Almost perfect except there is no Colevrak kit.

As a Dvorak user, I don't mind to pay more to get this kit up and running. The Space-Cadet theme is rare, the Colerak kit in such a theme is rarer, due to the APL legends. If there is a small chance to get it there, please think twice before putting it away.

The 40-45$ would be EXTRA to have the new molds made, added on top of the current cost of 43$ per DC kit as seen in Red Samurai, we're looking at a 80-90$ TOTAL. Sure there are some nuts that will have no issue with paying that, but faaaar from 100.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 11 February 2018, 05:31:39
Q: Colevrak kit?
A: Due to the secondary APL legends, a Colevrak kit would need 20+ new molds made as well. With Colevrak kits having an MOQ of 100 and only ever having reached that number once with Laser, we're talking about a 30euro (40-45$ or so) extra, making the kit cost 80-90$.

Are we talking that if we add a Colerak kit, it would cost 40-45$ alone? Or the Colerak kit costs 80-90$ alone? If it's 40-45$, IMO that is not a very high price, considering the previous Colerak kit costs some price at the same level.

This keyset is the set of this year to me personally. Almost perfect except there is no Colevrak kit.

As a Dvorak user, I don't mind to pay more to get this kit up and running. The Space-Cadet theme is rare, the Colerak kit in such a theme is rarer, due to the APL legends. If there is a small chance to get it there, please think twice before putting it away.

The 40-45$ would be EXTRA to have the new molds made, added on top of the current cost of 43$ per DC kit as seen in Red Samurai, we're looking at a 80-90$ TOTAL. Sure there are some nuts that will have no issue with paying that, but faaaar from 100.

Got it. I'm cool with this absence of DC kit in this GB. Since the APL legends are exclusive to this theme, even if the DC kit happens in this GB, it doesn't share the molds for any other later GMK GBs like the previous plain DC kit. It doesn't help any other later GMK GBs for the DC users even though it's not much money for 100 DC kit in total, which is around 8000$ and I could pay that actually. Let's see how it will be going without the DC kit for now. If there is enough interest, maybe we could have some extra GB for the DC users in the future, like the Colevrak extension for SA Oblivion maybe? Or an extra plain alpha and DC kit GB in blue-grey theme without the APL legends, which is a compromise to avoid to the molds cost.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 05:38:23
even though it's not much money for 100 DC kit in total, which is around 8000$ and I could pay that actually.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/tLql6mMHC6wvK/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schmoktopus on Sun, 11 February 2018, 05:53:11
God, that makes me want a Signature Plastics SA R2 sooo bad.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Owl- on Sun, 11 February 2018, 06:55:06
Oblotzky, have you thought about adding the side/front symbols too?

This:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Space-cadet-closeup.jpg)

I seriously would love to see this happen. I'm aware this will increase the cost to get the extra symbols front printed but this is the extra detail I'd love to see happen. Since it's done on Massdrop, I think its fair details to add.

Also, it'll be great to see super/win novelty keys to be included in the Symbols kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 07:36:04
Oblotzky, have you thought about adding the side/front symbols too?

This:
Show Image
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Space-cadet-closeup.jpg)


I seriously would love to see this happen. I'm aware this will increase the cost to get the extra symbols front printed but this is the extra detail I'd love to see happen. Since it's done on Massdrop, I think its fair details to add.

Also, it'll be great to see super/win novelty keys to be included in the Symbols kit.

I'll have to see how pricing is as it is. Also what do you mean by Super/Win keys for Symbols kit? Super Meta Hyper are already in the base kit, considering adding 1x Meta and 1x Hyper in 1.5u if pricing allows it.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Petch on Sun, 11 February 2018, 07:43:57
Love the colours but don't really care for the alpha legends. I'd rather it was like Laser with a standard alpha set and an extra alpha set with the legends, rather than another set of the same but in blue

Again, Oblotzky is simply trying to stay faithful to the original design, but in cherry profile. If you want normal Latin alphas, this is not the set you're looking for. Not trying to put your idea down, but it wouldn't be space cadet without these alphas.

I could say it's not space cadet without centered legends on spherical caps with the additional front printed legends.

It already isn't space cadet, and never will be.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Sun, 11 February 2018, 08:11:33
Love the colours but don't really care for the alpha legends. I'd rather it was like Laser with a standard alpha set and an extra alpha set with the legends, rather than another set of the same but in blue

Again, Oblotzky is simply trying to stay faithful to the original design, but in cherry profile. If you want normal Latin alphas, this is not the set you're looking for. Not trying to put your idea down, but it wouldn't be space cadet without these alphas.

I could say it's not space cadet without centered legends on spherical caps with the additional front printed legends.

It already isn't space cadet, and never will be.

The point is to pay tribute to Space Cadet, whether or not it "isn't and never will be" is irrelevant. Oblotzky is one of like 3 people I expect to stay true to the concept so I can safely say it won't ever happen.

Plus if it theoretically did happen it'd impair sales terribly, there's abslolutely no way regular alphas in the base kit would sell anywhere near the number this will (unless there's a huge number of Massdrop normies). Maybe an argument made for having it as a secondary alpha kit but I think the blue version is much more interesting than that so I'm glad this is the way it is.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Sun, 11 February 2018, 08:15:56

Greek front legends would look so cool! Could they be pad printed to save costs? Since we won't ever be touching the fronts anyway.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: JDT79 on Sun, 11 February 2018, 09:11:39
Can't wait! Probably buy both sets.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Sun, 11 February 2018, 09:42:48
Pad printing if ugly tho.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 09:56:55
Pad printing if ugly tho.

Who said anything about pad printing tho.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Sun, 11 February 2018, 09:57:50
interested
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: atectatifern on Sun, 11 February 2018, 10:01:39
About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?
Yes, please. I know it isn't precisely faithful to the original but am interested if that could at least be offered in an extras kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Owl- on Sun, 11 February 2018, 10:02:11
I'll have to see how pricing is as it is. Also what do you mean by Super/Win keys for Symbols kit? Super Meta Hyper are already in the base kit, considering adding 1x Meta and 1x Hyper in 1.5u if pricing allows it.

As in a novelty alternative of the Super key for the Symbols Kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Sun, 11 February 2018, 10:46:51
Pad printing if ugly tho.

Who said anything about pad printing tho.

People asking for front legends, even if they're pad printed.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: EightDiagram on Sun, 11 February 2018, 11:12:09
@Oblotzky...thanks for bringing this set to life!

How does MD measure how much interest in a set design is enough to green-light it for drop?  Factoring in new molds and such, would it be reasonable to see this ship before the end of the year?  Just curious how it all works.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sun, 11 February 2018, 11:47:02
I could say it's not space cadet without centered legends on spherical caps with the additional front printed legends.

And I would largely agree with you. The most disappointing thing about 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet keycaps is the lack of pad-printed front legends. But I have to believe their absence was a concession to cost. Nevertheless, they are the best "Space Cadet" keycaps anyone has tried to make, superior even to Symbiosis which wasn't sculptured.

What I find puzzling is the apparent love for this design from people who don't like spherical (SA) keycaps (which are the closest to the original Space Cadet keycaps you'll find in production today). This says to me that you have two types of interested buyers here: those who love the original Space Cadet keyboard in its entirety and want something as close as possible to it using contemporary components, and those who just like keycaps with unusual legends. The Space Cadet is very special to me, and I feel a little saddened that its legacy is being plundered just to pander to the second crowd, but that's my neurotic cross to bear and nobody else's. I still support this GB because Oblotzky's heart is in the right place, even if it does aim to please buyers who don't really have an appreciation for the OG keyboard that inspires it.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Sun, 11 February 2018, 12:16:50
What I find puzzling is the apparent love for this design from people who don't like spherical (SA) keycaps (which are the closest to the original Space Cadet keycaps you'll find in production today). This says to me that you have two types of interested buyers here: those who love the original Space Cadet keyboard in its entirety and want something as close as possible to it using contemporary components, and those who just like keycaps with unusual legends. The Space Cadet is very special to me, and I feel a little saddened that its legacy is being plundered just to pander to the second crowd, but that's my neurotic cross to bear and nobody else's. I still support this GB because Oblotzky's heart is in the right place, even if it does aim to please buyers who don't really have an appreciation for the OG keyboard that inspires it.

I can only speak for myself (and I know I'm in the minority for sure) but I dislike typing on SA despite being a fan of the aesthetic as you know, the main reason I'm behind this project is because I know how significant the original keyboard is/was and I would like an opportunity to own a tribute to it that I can actually type on comfortably (which I cannot do with SA). Additionally, it helps that it is going to be available for purchase in a much more reasonable manner than Round X caps.

I'll be the first to admit I'm a sucker for all sets with quirky caps so even if I didn't care for Space Cadet I'd still get this but I know what you mean by it kind of doing a disservice to the legacy it entails - it doesn't particularly bother me that people who have no idea as for the why of the set's inception will own it but I hope the Massdrop description helps educate the ones that want to learn at least. I think that might help a little.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: yokken on Sun, 11 February 2018, 12:53:06
[attach=1]

Different typeface plus different key profile means this has none of the character of the original and all of the obscurity. I think this is objectively a poorly designed set but that is my subjective opinion. I understand nostalgia but nostalgia just doesn't mean something was good, it just means someone remembers it fondly - sometimes because new stuff makes the old stuff seem so bad that it's cute/adorable. This is one of those times. Sorry Oblotzky, I like a lot of your other stuff, but this is not indicative of your usually good eye.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 12:54:36
(Attachment Link)

Different typeface plus different key profile means this has none of the character of the original and all of the obscurity. I think this is objectively a poorly designed set but that is my subjective opinion. I understand nostalgia but nostalgia just doesn't mean something was good, it just means someone remembers it fondly - sometimes because new stuff makes the old stuff seem so bad that it's cute/adorable. This is one of those times. Sorry Oblotzky, I like a lot of your other stuff, but this is not indicative of your usually good eye.

That's okay, we can't always agree on everything :) Thanks for your honest opinion!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Jae-3soteric on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:06:53
I'm def in for this.

Oblotzky - any chance of a Hyper 7 kit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7wubx0/i_hear_space_cadet_is_popular/
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Pluto19 on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:17:52
I don't know a shred about the OG Space Cadet, but I love this homage to it. It's a shame to see people nitpicking about the profile, the typeface and font, and legend orientation. Looking forward to buying a few kits. Great work as usual Oblotzky.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ihalatch on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:18:10
Very interested. Please, make it happen.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:29:05
I'm def in for this.

Oblotzky - any chance of a Hyper 7 kit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7wubx0/i_hear_space_cadet_is_popular/

None, that's just not gonna break MOQ. Plus I'm pretty sure GMK lacks a handfull of keysizes in the right rows.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Jae-3soteric on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:30:53
I'm def in for this.

Oblotzky - any chance of a Hyper 7 kit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7wubx0/i_hear_space_cadet_is_popular/

None, that's just not gonna break MOQ. Plus I'm pretty sure GMK lacks a handfull of keysizes in the right rows.

It was sarcasm tbf!!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:31:36
I'm def in for this.

Oblotzky - any chance of a Hyper 7 kit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7wubx0/i_hear_space_cadet_is_popular/

None, that's just not gonna break MOQ. Plus I'm pretty sure GMK lacks a handfull of keysizes in the right rows.

It was sarcasm tbf!!

How would I know, people request the weirdest **** every time  :-*
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Sun, 11 February 2018, 13:52:25
Yeah... I'll definitely be in on this even though I shouldn't.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 15:40:27
Updated Ergopreonic and Blue Alphas to remove duplicate keys, added R2 hand pointing right in blue to Symbols kit so the TKL cluster can now be populated with hand symbols properly (Page Up and Down, Home and End)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sun, 11 February 2018, 16:20:37
Oblotsky, could you possibly add some of the other unique keys like "status", "Terminal", and "network"?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sun, 11 February 2018, 16:21:06
Woops double post
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schmoktopus on Sun, 11 February 2018, 16:40:50
Love the colours but don't really care for the alpha legends. I'd rather it was like Laser with a standard alpha set and an extra alpha set with the legends, rather than another set of the same but in blue

Again, Oblotzky is simply trying to stay faithful to the original design, but in cherry profile. If you want normal Latin alphas, this is not the set you're looking for. Not trying to put your idea down, but it wouldn't be space cadet without these alphas.

This!!!  No offense, but I honestly do not understand why we do not make this a SA set. I might be a gorgeous colourway, but GMK just isnt the fitting profile.

I could say it's not space cadet without centered legends on spherical caps with the additional front printed legends.

It already isn't space cadet, and never will be.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Petch on Sun, 11 February 2018, 16:40:53
Legends, profile, pad printing etc. aside...

Will you get colour samples before the full production and be able to borrow an original spade cadet to compare them against? Or will you just be going off Chyrosran's picture?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 16:53:26
Legends, profile, pad printing etc. aside...

Will you get colour samples before the full production and be able to borrow an original spade cadet to compare them against? Or will you just be going off Chyrosran's picture?

Color samples will be checked before production kicks off of course, since I live in Germany the turnover rate is very fast on this too, no week long waiting for stuff to arrive on the other side of the world.

I will look into how I might be able to obtain real keys from a SpaceCadet, though due to their rarity this might not be possible. 7bit chose BFP and GD for blue and gray, I will dig through the archives and see how he decided on these chips from SP. I own both chips already and would provide these to GMK for color matching, which worked wonderfully in the past for Oblivion, their first try was 100% spot on, see here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89241.msg2478443#msg2478443
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ArchDill on Sun, 11 February 2018, 17:05:40
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 11 February 2018, 17:12:20
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

How does blue alphas being offered optionally affect your buying experience?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nsmechkb on Sun, 11 February 2018, 17:19:07
Glad you didn't go the pad printed route.  The set is going to be super nice, and that blue alphas option is a great idea.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: MajorKoos on Sun, 11 February 2018, 17:44:14
Those blue alphas are awesome.
I'm definitely going to be getting those.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ba7777 on Sun, 11 February 2018, 17:46:53
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

How does blue alphas being offered optionally affect your buying experience?
Maybe he want it as a stand-alone grey alpha kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sun, 11 February 2018, 18:30:18
Those blue alphas are awesome.
I'm definitely going to be getting those.


Same here. I was "almost" getting out of the keyboard madness, when this so easily gets me inside it again. Let's be it, those blue alphas will get money out of my pocket, one more time.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: switchnollie on Sun, 11 February 2018, 19:46:58
Full doubleshot :cool:

Dem, I'm interested.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: rippor on Sun, 11 February 2018, 19:52:36
Im in for SA, no dice on the GMK tho
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sun, 11 February 2018, 19:59:50
Im in for SA, no dice on the GMK tho


The group buy for SA ran several eons ago, you lost your opportunity.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sun, 11 February 2018, 20:03:20
Glad you didn't go the pad printed route.

Pad printing was never a consideration for the top legends. The only proposal for pad printing was for the front legends, which is a pretty cool idea.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sevenseacat on Sun, 11 February 2018, 20:32:23
I might buy just the novelties (symbols), I think they look cool 😎
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Valaris on Sun, 11 February 2018, 20:38:10
What are the extra legends on the alphas? Like the rotated U's and T's?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sun, 11 February 2018, 20:41:53
What are the extra legends on the alphas? Like the rotated U's and T's?


The Space Cadet is a keyboard designed for use with Symbolics' Lisp Machines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine), and many of the extra keys are specific to that use. This comment was taken from here (https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/495/what-do-the-keys-on-this-symbolics-space-cadet-keyboard-do).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ArchDill on Sun, 11 February 2018, 21:14:24
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

How does blue alphas being offered optionally affect your buying experience?

I think that it is a great option. I am just not big on blue. My personal preference would be the ability to buy the grey alphas only. Ultimately, we all have opinions and preferences and you, as a vendor, are not responsible for meeting them all. I think the set will do great! One of the neatest sets I have seen in a while! Again, I may go in for a full kit for those alphas!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 11 February 2018, 21:27:20
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

splitting kits is bad, GMK charges more when you do that

i like it better this way
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Sun, 11 February 2018, 21:29:56
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

splitting kits is bad, GMK charges more when you do that

i like it better this way

Getting ‘just the alphas’ from the base set is never an option anyway.. otherwise I would have bought ‘just the alphas’ from Nautilus. :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 11 February 2018, 21:38:07
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

splitting kits is bad, GMK charges more when you do that

i like it better this way

Getting ‘just the alphas’ from the base set is never an option anyway.. otherwise I would have bought ‘just the alphas’ from Nautilus. :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

it was doable in 2013 with SP since there were like 50 of us and we could never agree and we knew we'd be paying a ****load anyway

now people are more agreeable since there are more of us
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sun, 11 February 2018, 22:32:01
What are the extra legends on the alphas? Like the rotated U's and T's?

If you have to ask, this GB is not for you.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sun, 11 February 2018, 22:34:30
What are the extra legends on the alphas? Like the rotated U's and T's?

If you have to ask, this GB is not for you.

No need to be a **** about it?

It's a genuine question you know the answer to. Be helpful and not upset that it isn't SA.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ArchDill on Sun, 11 February 2018, 23:24:02
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

splitting kits is bad, GMK charges more when you do that

i like it better this way

Getting ‘just the alphas’ from the base set is never an option anyway.. otherwise I would have bought ‘just the alphas’ from Nautilus. :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:thinkingface: but the blue is available in just the alphas... I am basically saying I wish the grey was an option, rather than the blue.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Mon, 12 February 2018, 06:32:59
Buy the base and sell the mods. Someone will buy so they can make two full sets without having to buy two base kits.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ihalatch on Mon, 12 February 2018, 06:38:24
I really wish that just the grey alphas were available. I am not a big blue fan. Might buy the kit just for grey. Either way, I love this set. Great job!

splitting kits is bad, GMK charges more when you do that

i like it better this way

Getting ‘just the alphas’ from the base set is never an option anyway.. otherwise I would have bought ‘just the alphas’ from Nautilus. :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:thinkingface: but the blue is available in just the alphas... I am basically saying I wish the grey was an option, rather than the blue.

If it's a true homage to Space Cadet grey can't be an option. It's the right colour for the alphas. This is 7bit Round 6
(http://i.imgur.com/3cZnjAN.jpg) (https://imgur.com/3cZnjAN)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: rioc on Mon, 12 February 2018, 07:20:41
Why isn't the mixed white text and black text mods the base kit?

Sent from my DREA100 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 12 February 2018, 08:00:05
Why isn't the mixed white text and black text mods the base kit?

Sent from my DREA100 using Tapatalk

I expect 95% of buyers wanting to have all white-mods, so switching this setup around would increase cost for the vast majority by ~35$, while true cadetters can still achieve their dream with the optional kit and would be okay with the price I hope.

it's not ideal, but I believe this is the best approach for the GB
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Mon, 12 February 2018, 08:08:01
I agree that all white is the way to go in the base. A majority of purchasers aren't going to buy this because it's space cadet.  They're going to buy it because it looks cool and has funky sublegends, and white looks a bit more cohesive.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: vewy_nice on Mon, 12 February 2018, 08:29:35
I had all but given up almost immediately when I knew that I wanted the SA set... (either of them... Yeah good luck to me!)

Something attainable, and in a more comfortable profile?

An instant classic.

Looking at the response over just a few days, this is going to sell a LOT of sets.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: reijikyosuke on Mon, 12 February 2018, 08:43:32
nice colorway, I hope it will run smoothly  :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: pvd on Mon, 12 February 2018, 09:56:21
I own a Hyper7 set that I got from the R6 leftovers and I like it, but I don't think anyone should have to spend $400 to obtain a keyset, however nice. This looks like a nice and affordable alternative to selling your soul for some plastic.

I think arguing over the "authenticity" of a space cadet set in a different profile is absurd. There is what, one person who has actually assembled a proper space cadet board in a proper replication of the original. Literally everyone else bought the set and paired it with standard modifiers because math runes look cool. And math runes still look cool in a different profile.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Mon, 12 February 2018, 11:02:11
I own a Hyper7 set that I got from the R6 leftovers and I like it, but I don't think anyone should have to spend $400 to obtain a keyset, however nice. This looks like a nice and affordable alternative to selling your soul for some plastic.

I think arguing over the "authenticity" of a space cadet set in a different profile is absurd. There is what, one person who has actually assembled a proper space cadet board in a proper replication of the original. Literally everyone else bought the set and paired it with standard modifiers because math runes look cool. And math runes still look cool in a different profile.

Agreed with this. It's always good to learn from the past. Bonus points to maybe getting the Massdrop only shoppers exited about a rerun of the SA set  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: blighty on Mon, 12 February 2018, 11:22:13
Any chance for side printing on the numpad for the nav keys (home/end/pg up/pg dn/delete)?  I know it takes a bit away from the aesthetic, but can't hurt to ask.  As it stands, I think I'm in for all kits but the ergopreonic, so it would be just a bonus.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mbsurfer on Mon, 12 February 2018, 11:35:24
I'm in as long we can get the "Rub Out" legend on every alpha key
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Mon, 12 February 2018, 12:18:27
A majority of purchasers aren't going to buy this because it's space cadet.  They're going to buy it because it looks cool and has funky sublegends...

Yes, and therein lies the great tragedy of a set offering like this.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nsmechkb on Mon, 12 February 2018, 13:29:25
.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Mon, 12 February 2018, 14:07:56
A majority of purchasers aren't going to buy this because it's space cadet.  They're going to buy it because it looks cool and has funky sublegends...

Yes, and therein lies the great tragedy of a set offering like this.

Or now people who otherwise wouldn't have had any idea what Space Cadet is will now become woke...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Mon, 12 February 2018, 14:32:06
A majority of purchasers aren't going to buy this because it's space cadet.  They're going to buy it because it looks cool and has funky sublegends...

Yes, and therein lies the great tragedy of a set offering like this.

Or now people who otherwise wouldn't have had any idea what Space Cadet is will now become woke...

Elitists will be elitists I suppose, can't possibly have something that would draw attention to a piece of history if it isn't exactly the same as what its imitating.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Mon, 12 February 2018, 15:53:53
Definitely interested.

Can't help but be sad that the text is left aligned instead of centered but still excited. Anyone know why that has to be the case?

I am also putting out there that i'd be interested in printing the front legends if that's on the table. Doesn't really matter if front legends are doubleshot since they don't wear anyway.

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Mon, 12 February 2018, 15:56:26
Definitely interested.

Can't help but be sad that the text is left aligned instead of centered but still excited. Anyone know why that has to be the case?

I am also putting out there that i'd be interested in printing the front legends if that's on the table. Doesn't really matter if front legends are doubleshot since they don't wear anyway.

Probably because that's the standard space for GMK, maybe it just hasn't been thought about yet?

I'd also prefer centered legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 12 February 2018, 16:02:30
left aligned pls

i don't like centered legends unless they're large like on SA
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Mon, 12 February 2018, 16:46:37
left aligned pls

i don't like centered legends unless they're large like on SA

I'm with Puddsy. This set is for those of us who appreciate space cadet and it's design, but prefer cherry profile. I think it does a good job of that. It's unreasonable to expect this to look like an SA set when it's not one.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Mon, 12 February 2018, 17:17:47
left aligned pls

i don't like centered legends unless they're large like on SA

I'm with Pudsey. This set is for those of us who appreciate space cadet and it's design, but prefer cherry profile. I think it does a good job of that. It's unreasonable to expect this to look like an SA set when it's not one.

I see where you're coming from there. I don't want centered legends so that it looks like SA. I prefer centered legends because with two rows left aligned legends look weird with one row being left aligned and one being right. I vastly prefer cherry profile and on cherry profile left centered legends look best when you only have 1 row, but with two rows for me it changes.

I'm going to enter this GB either way though.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Mon, 12 February 2018, 18:00:39
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Mon, 12 February 2018, 18:13:03
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 12 February 2018, 18:36:22
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?

Yes but only for the alphas that are new, people are talking about centered modifiers as well, which would add another 40 molds or so to cover everything. Some suggested to center the cadet alphas, but seem to forget that this would also require the numbers row to be recreated centered as well, and the other 8 or so keys right of the alphas.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Mon, 12 February 2018, 18:43:40
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?

Yes but only for the alphas that are new, people are talking about centered modifiers as well, which would add another 40 molds or so to cover everything. Some suggested to center the cadet alphas, but seem to forget that this would also require the numbers row to be recreated centered as well, and the other 8 or so keys right of the alphas.

Ah that's a good point I hadn't thought that centering the alphas would require centering all the other keys. Thanks for the clarification. Good luck with the GB.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 12 February 2018, 19:58:06
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?

Yes but only for the alphas that are new, people are talking about centered modifiers as well, which would add another 40 molds or so to cover everything. Some suggested to center the cadet alphas, but seem to forget that this would also require the numbers row to be recreated centered as well, and the other 8 or so keys right of the alphas.

can you make a render with centered mods pls
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Mon, 12 February 2018, 20:56:38
Enough with this centred nonsense. This is GMK. Let’s get this set into GB


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: _rubik on Mon, 12 February 2018, 21:00:05
I can't believe this thread is only 2 days old and has grown this much. Same characters waging the same wars too... I love this forum :)

As for the set, I'm definitely interested. I prefer this colorway/set in an SA profile, but I'm truly excited to see how it shapes up with GMK. Either way, gotta love a well done throwback to a classic board.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 12 February 2018, 22:22:12
I can't believe this thread is only 2 days old and has grown this much. Same characters waging the same wars too... I love this forum :)

As for the set, I'm definitely interested. I prefer this colorway/set in an SA profile, but I'm truly excited to see how it shapes up with GMK. Either way, gotta love a well done throwback to a classic board.

it's not GH if every IC isn't the same
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BlackInk on Mon, 12 February 2018, 23:08:15
Sorry that I didnt have time to go thru all the comments, wondering if is it possible to make the blue alpha as the main alpha is the base kit?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 13 February 2018, 01:10:06
Sorry that I didnt have time to go thru all the comments, wondering if is it possible to make the blue alpha as the main alpha is the base kit?

oblotzky said that that is not faithful to the original, and i don't think it'll be offered classic style because of the 10 euro "tax" gmk puts on split kits like that
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: bthezebra on Tue, 13 February 2018, 10:25:05
So much hype, I am definitely in.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Tue, 13 February 2018, 11:25:59
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)


+1 for this, or either the IJKL inverted T arrow cluster.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Tue, 13 February 2018, 11:44:47
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)


+1 for this, or either the IJKL inverted T arrow cluster.

I don't understand why we should prioritize VIM theme over Space Cadet? This has nothing to do with VIM, just because there are arrows similar to the ones VIM has?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Tue, 13 February 2018, 11:56:35
GMK Red Samurai re-used the already paid for GMK Laser molds, so your math is wrong!

About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)


The reasoning is that space cadet symbols are novelties while the VIM or inverted T arrows are actually used by some fellows, me included. I use space-Fn plus IJKL as arrows; while, I really do not need any visual reference to access my arrow cluster, it would be nice to have them as reference, even if I touch type.


+1 for this, or either the IJKL inverted T arrow cluster.

I don't understand why we should prioritize VIM theme over Space Cadet? This has nothing to do with VIM, just because there are arrows similar to the ones VIM has?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: OracleKev on Wed, 14 February 2018, 01:02:08
About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)


+1 for this, or either the IJKL inverted T arrow cluster.

I don't understand why we should prioritize VIM theme over Space Cadet? This has nothing to do with VIM, just because there are arrows similar to the ones VIM has?

Pls keep the top legends as is.  My understanding is those were meant to enter APL characters and conceptually different from VIM navigation keys.
I do appreciate VIM modality and all the goodness there (emacs with evil user), but those VIM nav keys would be out of place and alien here.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Wed, 14 February 2018, 02:44:21
People who use VIM will know there arrow position and don't look onto the board, so there is really no need to edit this legendary keyboard layout for a few vim users.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dr_derivative on Wed, 14 February 2018, 06:27:40
Space Cadet keyboards belonged to Lisp machines, which used a variant of emacs. So adding vim arrows not only goes against the original keyboard, but goes against the history of the machine too. IMO it should be left as is.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Wed, 14 February 2018, 11:49:59
I agree with the general view of space cadet sub legends as part of its authenticity, therefore, changing them goes against of the nature of a set like this.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 14 February 2018, 12:08:53
Space Cadet keyboards belonged to Lisp machines, which used a variant of emacs. So adding vim arrows not only goes against the original keyboard, but goes against the history of the machine too. IMO it should be left as is.

This.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Wed, 14 February 2018, 15:01:23
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?

Yes but only for the alphas that are new, people are talking about centered modifiers as well, which would add another 40 molds or so to cover everything. Some suggested to center the cadet alphas, but seem to forget that this would also require the numbers row to be recreated centered as well, and the other 8 or so keys right of the alphas.
I'm neither for nor against the centered mods but I'd suggest that doing so would create value for the community. The centered mods and numbers could then be used by other sets. Perhaps another group buy could do centered alphas and then the community would have both centered and standard GMK molds to work with.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Wed, 14 February 2018, 16:20:44
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?

Yes but only for the alphas that are new, people are talking about centered modifiers as well, which would add another 40 molds or so to cover everything. Some suggested to center the cadet alphas, but seem to forget that this would also require the numbers row to be recreated centered as well, and the other 8 or so keys right of the alphas.
I'm neither for nor against the centered mods but I'd suggest that doing so would create value for the community. The centered mods and numbers could then be used by other sets. Perhaps another group buy could do centered alphas and then the community would have both centered and standard GMK molds to work with.


Unless GMK want to support some of the cost for such new molds the premium on this group buy would be unbearable.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: theillumedpanda on Wed, 14 February 2018, 17:09:24
Really like that set a lot!

@Oblotzky: do you know if GMK has molds for ISO-CH? Just curious, not that I really think this is ever going to happen.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 14 February 2018, 17:33:15
Really like that set a lot!

@Oblotzky: do you know if GMK has molds for ISO-CH? Just curious, not that I really think this is ever going to happen.

No idea
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Wed, 14 February 2018, 18:03:03
Personally I've always been from the school of thought that I want something that looks cool number one, I've never really cared that much for the theme or history etc that inspires a set. I realise that other people are fiercely protective over replicating the OG as precisely as possible, and I think you've got a pretty good compromise between the two here.

This looks great in my opinion, personally would prefer icon only or text + icon mods. I think icon could go well seeing as there are already a lot of 'icons' as sub legends. I realise this is an extremely contentious topic though and a lot of people will disagree/get triggered =S. Just giving my opinion anyway =].

The most important question I had was could you change the R3 backslash/pipe key to something else? I realise different European countries use a variety of different keys/layouts left of return but the only layout I'm familiar with that uses that R3 key is the mac? Maybe 'US ISO'? I'm not asking to have exactly the correct key for the UK layout but just something else, so that EU people that are ok with not buying the NordeUK kit and having exactly the correct legends on those keys could at least have different legends on the keys to the left of return and to the right of left ISO shift if that makes sense? Sorry I've probably done a really terrible job of explaining that! Thanks =]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Wed, 14 February 2018, 18:08:22
^
To add a suggestion as what to use for my request above, maybe back quote/tilde? I'm somewhat biased though as I'm mainly a 60% guy =P
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Rob27shred on Wed, 14 February 2018, 18:33:03
You da man Oblotzky, this set looks great & has awesome compatibility with just the base! :thumb: I am 100% behind this set & will even break my no Massdrop rule for it TBH (and that's a huge stretch for me as I have pretty much completely sworn off using MD). I love the Space Cadet colorway & legends, but sadly missed out on 7bit's Rd.6. :'( Although while I do love me some proper SA keys I definitely prefer GMK's Cherry profile to them. So missing out on Rd.6 may be a blessing in disguise for me as I very rarely will buy the same colorway in different profiles. I'm gonna go vote for the set on MD right now in fact, hopefully enough people vote to get this set fast tracked! :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Wed, 14 February 2018, 20:23:56

Any follow up on the greek front legends?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: _rubik on Thu, 15 February 2018, 09:04:55
About the arrows, could we forget about the space cadet layout and use the vim standard instead?

(Attachment Link)


+1 for this, or either the IJKL inverted T arrow cluster.

I don't understand why we should prioritize VIM theme over Space Cadet? This has nothing to do with VIM, just because there are arrows similar to the ones VIM has?

Pls keep the top legends as is.  My understanding is those were meant to enter APL characters and conceptually different from VIM navigation keys.
I do appreciate VIM modality and all the goodness there (emacs with evil user), but those VIM nav keys would be out of place and alien here.

I feel this may be worth my two cents. I completely agree that vim keys have no place in this set. The set is already taking the bold jump from a sculpted cap to GMK, so changing much more would be straying too far away from the original. I think people are just trying to throw their personal desire into the set, regardless of set consistency or relevance.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 15 February 2018, 09:19:31
Really like that set a lot!

@Oblotzky: do you know if GMK has molds for ISO-CH? Just curious, not that I really think this is ever going to happen.

ISO-CH doubleshots exist, therefore GMK should own the molds.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Thu, 15 February 2018, 09:59:21
Any legend that differs from current available ones at GMK may imply new molds, that may imply a huge premium. Besides, off centered legends look good on Cherry profile.

You're definitely more experienced than me with working with GMK but wouldn't the addition of the extra legends already require a new mold?

Yes but only for the alphas that are new, people are talking about centered modifiers as well, which would add another 40 molds or so to cover everything. Some suggested to center the cadet alphas, but seem to forget that this would also require the numbers row to be recreated centered as well, and the other 8 or so keys right of the alphas.
I'm neither for nor against the centered mods but I'd suggest that doing so would create value for the community. The centered mods and numbers could then be used by other sets. Perhaps another group buy could do centered alphas and then the community would have both centered and standard GMK molds to work with.


Unless GMK want to support some of the cost for such new molds the premium on this group buy would be unbearable.

Probably quite true.

Oblotzky, maybe worth asking GMK about? "The first GMK set with centered legends" would be quite tag line.  :D
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Thu, 15 February 2018, 11:12:42
The only change I'd really be interested in seeing for this set is the addition of front pad printed Greek characters. It'd just be the icing on the cake.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:12:18
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:22:40
I think the centered legends would look great, but only if they were properly arranged. The alpha symbols would need to be swapped (i.e., Latin on the bottom, APL symbols on top). The fact that centered legends sort of obscure the fact that these are GMK cylindricals is simply more win, IMO. Oh, and the spacebar should be blue in your renders...  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:26:08
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


Idk.... Centered legends don't look quite right on cylindrical caps imo. I much prefer the  left aligned top character and right aligned bottom character. If this was an SA set, which it isn't,  centered would be best.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:26:43
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


I've just noticed the modifier legends :-\

I think icon would look so much nicer with complex legends, but I know that isn't where the set is going :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:31:51
Doesn't look right with centred legends. Keep it as was, good on you for taking the time and effort to try it out and render it though.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: need on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:37:40
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


I've just noticed the modifier legends :-\

I think icon would look so much nicer with complex legends, but I know that isn't where the set is going :)

If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: WCO1 on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:46:35
good looking set  :thumb: i think of centered legends and text modifiers look quite good on this set. but i would love to see a icon only render.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: h3xadat on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:49:48
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


Oblotzky, can you please make a render with non-centered modifiers and swapped alphas as suggested by zslane? I imagine that would look really good.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: AMongoose on Thu, 15 February 2018, 12:50:54
The centered legends look pretty good and make it more interesting IMO, but as (zslane said) they should be switched upside down.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schmoktopus on Thu, 15 February 2018, 13:10:28
I like the centered legends more.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Thu, 15 February 2018, 13:19:23
Much prefer non-centered legends. If you want centered legends get the SA version.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 15 February 2018, 13:21:58
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


I've just noticed the modifier legends :-\

I think icon would look so much nicer with complex legends, but I know that isn't where the set is going :)

If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.

lol yeah, I'm familiar with the original set and will be buying it anyway.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Thu, 15 February 2018, 13:28:07
Undecided on centered vs justified alpha legends, but centered modifiers gotta go.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Lepidus on Thu, 15 February 2018, 13:53:45
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


Oblotzky, can you please make a render with non-centered modifiers and swapped alphas as suggested by zslane? I imagine that would look really good.

Yeah, I would like to see that also. I think it makes more sense, since OG had symbols on top.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 15 February 2018, 13:56:00
Sheeple and their corner legends...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 15 February 2018, 15:19:26
I'd keep it aligned to the left. Especially the shift keys look horrible and the normal alphas look better in the first renders too.


I've just noticed the modifier legends :-\

I think icon would look so much nicer with complex legends, but I know that isn't where the set is going :)

I have to agree, icon mods would be better.

If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.

In that case we should go with dark gray bottom rows, right?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 15 February 2018, 16:33:56
If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.

In that case we should go with dark gray bottom rows, right?

Blue mods with black legends are offered in a separate kit. Their absence in the base kit is purely a concession to the folks who like the colorway and the "funky legends" but can't abide the black legends of the real SC keyboard's bottom two mod rows. Personally, I think it should be the other way around, where the base kit has the OG mods and the blue/white mods are offered in a separate kit, but Oblotzky has fears of this set not hitting MOQ if he's too faithful to the OG tribute theme in the base kit.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Thu, 15 February 2018, 16:40:53
Sheeple and their corner legends...  :rolleyes:

Or maybe people have different tastes and preferences?

If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.

In that case we should go with dark gray bottom rows, right?

Blue mods with black legends are offered in a separate kit. Their absence in the base kit is purely a concession to the folks who like the colorway and the "funky legends" but can't abide the black legends of the real SC keyboard's bottom two mod rows. Personally, I think it should be the other way around, where the base kit has the OG mods and the blue/white mods are offered in a separate kit, but Oblotzky has fears of this set not hitting MOQ if he's too faithful to the OG tribute theme in the base kit.  :rolleyes:

Totally fair giving your opinion and thoughts, but is all the gatekeeping in this thread really necessary?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Thu, 15 February 2018, 16:42:22
Before shutting down the idea of centered legends, it was only fair to at least render it. I for one am not really excited, and do intend to keep it as it is.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


Oblotzky, can you please make a render with non-centered modifiers and swapped alphas as suggested by zslane? I imagine that would look really good.

Yeah, I would like to see that also. I think it makes more sense, since OG had symbols on top.

+1 for Centered alphas and non-centered modifiers. Centered alphas look significantly better in my opinion.

I also agree all the gatekeeping in here is annoying. 

The set obviously can't be a perfect recreation, where the line between being true to the original set and more modern cherry style should be is personal preference.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Thu, 15 February 2018, 18:57:27
Sheeple and their corner legends...  :rolleyes:

Or maybe people have different tastes and preferences?

If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.

In that case we should go with dark gray bottom rows, right?

Blue mods with black legends are offered in a separate kit. Their absence in the base kit is purely a concession to the folks who like the colorway and the "funky legends" but can't abide the black legends of the real SC keyboard's bottom two mod rows. Personally, I think it should be the other way around, where the base kit has the OG mods and the blue/white mods are offered in a separate kit, but Oblotzky has fears of this set not hitting MOQ if he's too faithful to the OG tribute theme in the base kit.  :rolleyes:

Totally fair giving your opinion and thoughts, but is all the gatekeeping in this thread really necessary?

+1  It's not making this easier ughh

As for centred legends... when did this become a thing with GMK?

Edit: more sensible comment
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Thu, 15 February 2018, 19:10:03
Sheeple and their corner legends...  :rolleyes:

Or maybe people have different tastes and preferences?

If you don't like the choice of modifier legends, well then this is not a set for you. The set is about paying homage to an old classic, and this is how they are supposed to be.

In that case we should go with dark gray bottom rows, right?

Blue mods with black legends are offered in a separate kit. Their absence in the base kit is purely a concession to the folks who like the colorway and the "funky legends" but can't abide the black legends of the real SC keyboard's bottom two mod rows. Personally, I think it should be the other way around, where the base kit has the OG mods and the blue/white mods are offered in a separate kit, but Oblotzky has fears of this set not hitting MOQ if he's too faithful to the OG tribute theme in the base kit.  :rolleyes:

Totally fair giving your opinion and thoughts, but is all the gatekeeping in this thread really necessary?

+1  Clearly not a fan and not going to buy it. So get the hell out.. :raughs:

As for centred legends... when did this become a thing with GMK?

It didn't, people are butthurt that cherry profile caps look like they're cherry profile and are demanding that Oblotzky change everything to appease them.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: a_ak57 on Thu, 15 February 2018, 19:31:00
I feel like if you're not gonna go with the Cherry-style legends of the OP, you might as well commit to making it as Cadet-ey as possible and put the alphas on bottom/symbols on top, and change the mod legends to all caps (and maybe make them slightly bigger).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 15 February 2018, 19:45:05
I agree. But I think the cost for new legend molds might be the big obstacle there.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 15 February 2018, 19:47:59
I agree. But I think the cost for new legend molds might be the big obstacle there.

They are already going to be new molds, so wouldn't matter?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: finalarcadia on Thu, 15 February 2018, 20:04:13
Original plans were best, non-centered and all white mods. Good balance of throwback with a modern sensibility that comes with GMK.


Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Thu, 15 February 2018, 20:20:04
Sounds like a poll is in order perhaps? Seems like there are a lot of conflicting opinions haha
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Thu, 15 February 2018, 20:50:05
Original plans were best, non-centered and all white mods. Good balance of throwback with a modern sensibility that comes with GMK.

Agreed. I think the original iteration by Oblotzky is the best compromise that's gonna be happening, going too overboard for no real reason is going to do more harm than good (depending on how you look at it, I suppose).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nsmechkb on Thu, 15 February 2018, 20:58:20
Original plans were best, non-centered and all white mods. Good balance of throwback with a modern sensibility that comes with GMK.

+1
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Thu, 15 February 2018, 22:41:01
I like originals best as well.  I see this as a merging of space cadet and cherry/gmk styling.  It's fine in my book to stray from the original caps somewhat and let the SA set be a closer reproduction seeing as they're spherical and inherently more accurate.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Thu, 15 February 2018, 22:45:13
I like originals best as well.  I see this as a merging of space cadet and cherry/gmk styling.  It's fine in my book to stray from the original caps somewhat and let the SA set be a closer reproduction seeing as they're spherical and inherently more accurate.
This
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Thu, 15 February 2018, 22:51:18
I like originals best as well.  I see this as a merging of space cadet and cherry/gmk styling.  It's fine in my book to stray from the original caps somewhat and let the SA set be a closer reproduction seeing as they're spherical and inherently more accurate.

Correct. Let the wannabe elitists pretend to know what they're talking about.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Thu, 15 February 2018, 23:19:03
I like originals best as well.  I see this as a merging of space cadet and cherry/gmk styling.  It's fine in my book to stray from the original caps somewhat and let the SA set be a closer reproduction seeing as they're spherical and inherently more accurate.

Correct. Let the wannabe elitists pretend to know what they're talking about.

I like originals best as well.  I see this as a merging of space cadet and cherry/gmk styling.  It's fine in my book to stray from the original caps somewhat and let the SA set be a closer reproduction seeing as they're spherical and inherently more accurate.

Correct. Let the wannabe elitists pretend to know what they're talking about.

Its not that they don't know what they're talking about. It's just that there are some that don't like any deviation from the classic aesthetic. Just different preferences.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: OracleKev on Fri, 16 February 2018, 02:18:14
I like originals best as well.  I see this as a merging of space cadet and cherry/gmk styling.  It's fine in my book to stray from the original caps somewhat and let the SA set be a closer reproduction seeing as they're spherical and inherently more accurate.

Agreed, despite many interesting suggestions, the original reinterpretation is not surpassed.  Time to trust designer's spider sense.
Greek side prints would be cherry on top of the cake.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: TonyD on Fri, 16 February 2018, 07:42:51
Original plans were best, non-centered and all white mods. Good balance of throwback with a modern sensibility that comes with GMK.

+1

+1 from me as well
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: King4477 on Fri, 16 February 2018, 08:09:41
Original plans were best, non-centered and all white mods. Good balance of throwback with a modern sensibility that comes with GMK.

+1

+1 from me as well

+1, too
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 16 February 2018, 08:19:43
The original renders look the best so far, IMO.

If you want an exact replica, go pay out the anus for an SA set... 
I'm buying Symbiosis off of someone locally next week. 
And I'll still be getting this when it runs.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Helldrop on Fri, 16 February 2018, 11:25:05
Original non-centered renders were much better.
This is GMK, not SA.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Fri, 16 February 2018, 11:47:09
I think the centered legends would look great, but only if they were properly arranged. The alpha symbols would need to be swapped (i.e., Latin on the bottom, APL symbols on top). The fact that centered legends sort of obscure the fact that these are GMK cylindricals is simply more win, IMO. Oh, and the spacebar should be blue in your renders...  :thumb:
I think this would be interesting at least to see how close to the original you could get.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 February 2018, 12:00:29
Original non-centered renders were much better.
This is GMK, not SA.

GMK doesn't automatically have to mean corner legends, and SA doesn't automatically have to mean centered legends (for instance, the Filco SA set has corner legends). Stretch your imagination a bit!

Having said that, I'm fine with the original set as presented, corner legends and all. But that's because I already have the full Round 6 SA Space Cadet keycap set, so my purist heart is satisfied already (though they would have been even better with greek front legends). Even though I don't really use cylindrical keycaps, I still plan to buy this set because I want to support Oblotzky and his laudable efforts here.

I really would like to know how much the cost would go up if greek front legends were added though.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 16 February 2018, 12:10:45
I am not convinced by the centered legends stuff, regardless of partially or for all keys. At this time I will continue it in the form as presented in the first post.

Regarding Greek legends, I won't be making a decision on that soon, first I will want to know how the current kits would be priced on Massdrop. Meaning I'd reach out to Yanbo and see where we stand with this being possible to run, him then getting pricing from GMK and converting that into drop pricing. I'll try to find out at that stage how much sideprintes would add and see if it's even worth considering.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Fri, 16 February 2018, 12:49:00
Pad printing on the face is going to stand out like a sore thumb. I think the benefit of having the legends is outweighed by the ugly factor introduced by the visible edges of the pad.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mbsurfer on Fri, 16 February 2018, 13:12:01
I am not convinced by the centered legends stuff, regardless of partially or for all keys. At this time I will continue it in the form as presented in the first post.

Good to hear. Non-centered GMK legends look way better
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 February 2018, 13:51:55
Non-centered GMK legends look way better

Why?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mbsurfer on Fri, 16 February 2018, 15:59:09
Non-centered GMK legends look way better

Why?

I personally think it's the text capitalization. Center works for when the text is ALL CAPS, but when it's just Capitalized, centering the text makes it appear lop-sided to me.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Fri, 16 February 2018, 16:09:01
Non-centered GMK legends look way better

Why?

I personally think it's the text capitalization. Center works for when the text is ALL CAPS, but when it's just Capitalized, centering the text makes it appear lop-sided to me.
So you're talking about the mod keys then, correct?
I'd think that if they we going to create new molds, they would uppercase them since that's how the original is.

It's hard to say you like one thing over another when one of those things doesn't exist yet and has never been seen.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 16 February 2018, 17:46:52
Non-centered GMK legends look way better

Why?

I personally think it's the text capitalization. Center works for when the text is ALL CAPS, but when it's just Capitalized, centering the text makes it appear lop-sided to me.

Ah, yeah, I see what you mean, and I tend to agree with you there. But as elfick said, if the legends were going to be centered on all keys (and I feel that you either center them all or you don't center any of them), then they'd also be all turned uppercase like with the original Space Cadet.

But I think it's a moot point since Oblotzky has no intention of going with all centered-uppercase legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Parva Ovis on Fri, 16 February 2018, 18:52:42
Hypothetically, centered alphas on GMK would make this an instant-buy for me, but in reality the large uptick in price would turn me off completely, and I think that would be true for a lot of people who might buy this but aren't hardcore Space Cadet fans. I also think the centered text modifiers are ugly. Normal GMK alignment is fine. That said, I'm in favor of text only or icon only modifiers, but not icon-text, and text only is truer to the original.

Showing my support for 40%, in the base kit or a separate kit.  :thumb:

EDIT: Also, I'm definitely pleased that there are no secondary legends on the numpad numbers. Please keep it that way!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: switchnollie on Fri, 16 February 2018, 23:09:21
Are you gonna have "Greek" keycap?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 17 February 2018, 06:40:04
Are you gonna have "Greek" keycap?

Only when Greek sideprints are introduced, which remains to be determined.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 18 February 2018, 09:56:09
- Removed R4 1u 'Fn' key from Base and Black Text Modifiers kits. The R4 1u 'Meta' and 'Hyper' keys should suffice in covering the spot(s) where a 1u Fn key would be used. Thematically these legends should be more favorable than Fn, and no other key size offers Fn either. Example given in the Tokyo60 render.
- Added R4 1.5u Meta and R4 1.5u Hyper to Base and Black Text Modifier kits. These are now also demonstrated in the M65 render.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Sun, 18 February 2018, 12:07:10
The most important question I had was could you change the R3 backslash/pipe key to something else? I realise different European countries use a variety of different keys/layouts left of return but the only layout I'm familiar with that uses that R3 key is the mac? Maybe 'US ISO'? I'm not asking to have exactly the correct key for the UK layout but just something else, so that EU people that are ok with not buying the NordeUK kit and having exactly the correct legends on those keys could at least have different legends on the keys to the left of return and to the right of left ISO shift if that makes sense? Sorry I've probably done a really terrible job of explaining that! Thanks =]

^
To add a suggestion as what to use for my request above, maybe back quote/tilde? I'm somewhat biased though as I'm mainly a 60% guy =P

Sorry, just wanted to reiterate this as I think it might have been missed, cheers
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 18 February 2018, 12:33:12
The most important question I had was could you change the R3 backslash/pipe key to something else? I realise different European countries use a variety of different keys/layouts left of return but the only layout I'm familiar with that uses that R3 key is the mac? Maybe 'US ISO'? I'm not asking to have exactly the correct key for the UK layout but just something else, so that EU people that are ok with not buying the NordeUK kit and having exactly the correct legends on those keys could at least have different legends on the keys to the left of return and to the right of left ISO shift if that makes sense? Sorry I've probably done a really terrible job of explaining that! Thanks =]

^
To add a suggestion as what to use for my request above, maybe back quote/tilde? I'm somewhat biased though as I'm mainly a 60% guy =P

Sorry, just wanted to reiterate this as I think it might have been missed, cheers

R3 1u \| is for ISO-US layout, the NorDeUK kit is for actual ISO-EU layouts.

(https://oblotzky.github.io/sa-oblivion/images/keyboards/sa_oblivion_keyboard_m65_usiso_monochrome_oblivion_top_ortho_wqhd.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: chuckdee on Sun, 18 February 2018, 12:49:27
I'm in! :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Sun, 18 February 2018, 12:53:36
The most important question I had was could you change the R3 backslash/pipe key to something else? I realise different European countries use a variety of different keys/layouts left of return but the only layout I'm familiar with that uses that R3 key is the mac? Maybe 'US ISO'? I'm not asking to have exactly the correct key for the UK layout but just something else, so that EU people that are ok with not buying the NordeUK kit and having exactly the correct legends on those keys could at least have different legends on the keys to the left of return and to the right of left ISO shift if that makes sense? Sorry I've probably done a really terrible job of explaining that! Thanks =]

^
To add a suggestion as what to use for my request above, maybe back quote/tilde? I'm somewhat biased though as I'm mainly a 60% guy =P

Sorry, just wanted to reiterate this as I think it might have been missed, cheers

R3 1u \| is for ISO-US layout, the NorDeUK kit is for actual ISO-EU layouts.

Show Image
(https://oblotzky.github.io/sa-oblivion/images/keyboards/sa_oblivion_keyboard_m65_usiso_monochrome_oblivion_top_ortho_wqhd.jpg)


Ok, isn't that just a waste though, I mean does anybody actually use ISO-US? I just think it makes so much more sense to have a layout that EU people can use whereby all of the keys have differing legends even if they are not exactly the correct ones? Split left shift and everything is already there, all that needs to be changed is that R3 key, or one added if you want to keep the ISO-US support? I don't even mind what the legend is, just something different? I understand you are trying to promote NorDeUK as it always does terribly but I think myself and a lot of others are unlikely to pay a large amount of money for a shed load of keys that we are never going to use. The way I'm suggesting still allows people to buy the NorDeUK kit if they really want all the perfect legends for their country and I honestly don't think it takes away a huge amount of people that would have otherwise bought the kit? I know EU people come and moan about lack of support etc all the time but I just think, whilst not perfect, it is the best compromise =S.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 18 February 2018, 13:03:19
The most important question I had was could you change the R3 backslash/pipe key to something else? I realise different European countries use a variety of different keys/layouts left of return but the only layout I'm familiar with that uses that R3 key is the mac? Maybe 'US ISO'? I'm not asking to have exactly the correct key for the UK layout but just something else, so that EU people that are ok with not buying the NordeUK kit and having exactly the correct legends on those keys could at least have different legends on the keys to the left of return and to the right of left ISO shift if that makes sense? Sorry I've probably done a really terrible job of explaining that! Thanks =]

^
To add a suggestion as what to use for my request above, maybe back quote/tilde? I'm somewhat biased though as I'm mainly a 60% guy =P

Sorry, just wanted to reiterate this as I think it might have been missed, cheers

R3 1u \| is for ISO-US layout, the NorDeUK kit is for actual ISO-EU layouts.

Show Image
(https://oblotzky.github.io/sa-oblivion/images/keyboards/sa_oblivion_keyboard_m65_usiso_monochrome_oblivion_top_ortho_wqhd.jpg)


Ok, isn't that just a waste though, I mean does anybody actually use ISO-US? I just think it makes so much more sense to have a layout that EU people can use whereby all of the keys have differing legends even if they are not exactly the correct ones? Split left shift and everything is already there, all that needs to be changed is that R3 key, or one added if you want to keep the ISO-US support? I don't even mind what the legend is, just something different? I understand you are trying to promote NorDeUK as it always does terribly but I think myself and a lot of others are unlikely to pay a large amount of money for a shed load of keys that we are never going to use. The way I'm suggesting still allows people to buy the NorDeUK kit if they really want all the perfect legends for their country and I honestly don't think it takes away a huge amount of people that would have otherwise bought the kit? I know EU people come and moan about lack of support etc all the time but I just think, whilst not perfect, it is the best compromise =S.

But if I add a 'correct' key for that one location, all the other locations are still wrong legends. If you are fine with having wrong legends in all the other locations, why not this one too? The intention is to have at least physical coverage for those that want to cheap out, and the NorDeUK kit for those that want it perfect.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Sun, 18 February 2018, 13:06:57
The most important question I had was could you change the R3 backslash/pipe key to something else? I realise different European countries use a variety of different keys/layouts left of return but the only layout I'm familiar with that uses that R3 key is the mac? Maybe 'US ISO'? I'm not asking to have exactly the correct key for the UK layout but just something else, so that EU people that are ok with not buying the NordeUK kit and having exactly the correct legends on those keys could at least have different legends on the keys to the left of return and to the right of left ISO shift if that makes sense? Sorry I've probably done a really terrible job of explaining that! Thanks =]

^
To add a suggestion as what to use for my request above, maybe back quote/tilde? I'm somewhat biased though as I'm mainly a 60% guy =P

Sorry, just wanted to reiterate this as I think it might have been missed, cheers

R3 1u \| is for ISO-US layout, the NorDeUK kit is for actual ISO-EU layouts.

Show Image
(https://oblotzky.github.io/sa-oblivion/images/keyboards/sa_oblivion_keyboard_m65_usiso_monochrome_oblivion_top_ortho_wqhd.jpg)


Ok, isn't that just a waste though, I mean does anybody actually use ISO-US? I just think it makes so much more sense to have a layout that EU people can use whereby all of the keys have differing legends even if they are not exactly the correct ones? Split left shift and everything is already there, all that needs to be changed is that R3 key, or one added if you want to keep the ISO-US support? I don't even mind what the legend is, just something different? I understand you are trying to promote NorDeUK as it always does terribly but I think myself and a lot of others are unlikely to pay a large amount of money for a shed load of keys that we are never going to use. The way I'm suggesting still allows people to buy the NorDeUK kit if they really want all the perfect legends for their country and I honestly don't think it takes away a huge amount of people that would have otherwise bought the kit? I know EU people come and moan about lack of support etc all the time but I just think, whilst not perfect, it is the best compromise =S.

But if I add a 'correct' key for that one location, all the other locations are still wrong legends. If you are fine with having wrong legends in all the other locations, why not this one too? The intention is to have at least physical coverage for those that want to cheap out, and the NorDeUK kit for those that want it perfect.

Sorry I thought I was quite clear, I don't mind whether it is 'correct' I would just like it to be something different to backslash/pipe that would be on R4? I'm fine with not exactly the correct legends for my country, I would just like to not have duplicates?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sun, 18 February 2018, 13:49:11
If you really want to have an US-International ISO, this is it: The XT Layout:

(https://i.imgur.com/hGBJSr3.jpg)

Most of the GBs do not feature the proper keys for it, though; thus, it is not come as a surprise this one does not cover it, either.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: darkslay3r on Mon, 19 February 2018, 22:34:47
definitely will auto buy
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 21 February 2018, 21:44:03
Perhaps a dumb question, but if you're doing all new molds for the alphas, why not orient them as on the original space cadet with alternate symbol directly above letter, instead of diagonal with letter upper left and symbol lower right?

My guess is that GMK Space Cadet is what we imagine Tom Knight would have created had he put his legends on a modern Cherry-profile keycap family.
I doubt it, because the symbols on the space cadet keyboard were placed where they were to indicate the proper chorded use (e.g. super-a = symbol above a, just like shift-1 = ! on a PC keyboard). The Cherry "corners" method was for alternately  interpreted symbols by the attached computer; something like Cyrillic sublegends for a computer that's set to Russian language. But I understand why esthetically it's being presented this way for this set. Ultimately it doesn't really matter since the symbols are just decorative anyway.

Oblotzky, I agree with this. The balance between the original and cherry with this set is interesting. I think both the corner and centered legends look very impressive (with slight preference with centered - you say in the OP you want to replicate closely:P but perhaps centered is just much better on sphericalkinda like text only modifers).

(https://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)

or what about this?

(http://i.imgur.com/mWKK6Q8.jpg)

If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Random question.. but for those against icon mods, would the hand symbols look strange in their place? Left-facing thumbs for shift and left points for enter and backspace? I think it would look good as icon only for short shift and backspace. The APL legends provide some good alternatives for the current arrow cluster. Do you know what the hand icons function were originally?

edit: Oh and +1 for side print, those would be centered, right?  :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: finalarcadia on Wed, 21 February 2018, 22:19:34
I dont trust side pad printing lasting forever. My vote is no on greek :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 21 February 2018, 22:29:46
I dont trust side pad printing lasting forever. My vote is no on greek :p

Oh, is this the only option?

If only pad printing, would keycap cleaning solutions like denture tablets have an effect on it? They wouldn't see much use otherwise, right?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 22 February 2018, 01:34:29


If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Yes, a decent amount of very old vintage cherry boards had text only mods.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 01:49:03


If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Yes, a decent amount of very old vintage cherry boards had text only mods.

Very old, as in predating the cylindrical cherry profile/cornered legends?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 22 February 2018, 03:45:03


If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Yes, a decent amount of very old vintage cherry boards had text only mods.

Very old, as in predating the cylindrical cherry profile/cornered legends?

No, a decent amount of early mx boards with the modern style alphas had text mods, but that were not the common boards. https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:G80-1306a_.jpg
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 06:19:22


If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Yes, a decent amount of very old vintage cherry boards had text only mods.

Very old, as in predating the cylindrical cherry profile/cornered legends?

No, a decent amount of early mx boards with the modern style alphas had text mods, but that were not the common boards. https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:G80-1306a_.jpg

Ah, I forgot that one! It doesn't look bad in that layout, granted, most of the mods are shorter than ansi and it does have the backspace icon   :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 22 February 2018, 07:22:32


If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Yes, a decent amount of very old vintage cherry boards had text only mods.

Very old, as in predating the cylindrical cherry profile/cornered legends?

No, a decent amount of early mx boards with the modern style alphas had text mods, but that were not the common boards. https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:G80-1306a_.jpg

Ah, I forgot that one! It doesn't look bad in that layout, granted, most of the mods are shorter than ansi and it does have the backspace icon   :p

There should be some 2500 style terminal boards with normal iso layout with text mods too, I just can't find the pictures right now
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 08:04:16


If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? Has Cherry ever had text only mods? This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Yes, a decent amount of very old vintage cherry boards had text only mods.

Very old, as in predating the cylindrical cherry profile/cornered legends?

No, a decent amount of early mx boards with the modern style alphas had text mods, but that were not the common boards. https://deskthority.net/wiki/File:G80-1306a_.jpg

Ah, I forgot that one! It doesn't look bad in that layout, granted, most of the mods are shorter than ansi and it does have the backspace icon   :p

There should be some 2500 style terminal boards with normal iso layout with text mods too, I just can't find the pictures right now

Many of the best from that series are icon only:P There is also G80-0418, you found one of these recently, I was just going through that DT thread yesterday (<3).

(https://deskthority.net/resources/g80-0418-top-view/41315)

But again, these modifiers are basically stepped to 1 u. I think it is an odd balance to have a very busy alphas (1u) with potentially 3 legends but then have the largest keys feature only text
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: AMongoose on Thu, 22 February 2018, 08:11:39
I think it is an odd balance to have a very busy alphas (1u) with potentially 3 legends but then have the largest keys feature only text

Are you saying you dislike the look of the space cadet?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 08:13:47
I think it is an odd balance to have a very busy alphas (1u) with potentially 3 legends but then have the largest keys feature only text

Are you saying you dislike the look of the space cadet?
I wouldn't be here if I didn't like this

I think, historically, centered/text only looks better on sphericals
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Thu, 22 February 2018, 08:50:41
I'll just be honest here, permit me the shift of discussion to numbers - what do you guys think will sell better? Cornered legends or centered legends? I think the answer is obvious. How many people are gonna buy this because it's an exact replica of an old keyboard that follows very strict construction and how many are gonna buy it because it's a cool set that happens to pay homage to a very meaningful keyboard from way back?

Sales should not be impaired by gatekeeping. Sales should not be impaired by having to completely replicate the original to not piss purists off. Does anyone actually think black legends for bottom mods like the original would ever outsell regular mods for example? I'm all for civilised discussion but let's please get real here, there's no need to continue hammering on with decisions that are blatantly obvious.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: AMongoose on Thu, 22 February 2018, 12:54:50
I'll just be honest here, permit me the shift of discussion to numbers - what do you guys think will sell better? Cornered legends or centered legends? I think the answer is obvious. How many people are gonna buy this because it's an exact replica of an old keyboard that follows very strict construction and how many are gonna buy it because it's a cool set that happens to pay homage to a very meaningful keyboard from way back?

Sales should not be impaired by gatekeeping. Sales should not be impaired by having to completely replicate the original to not piss purists off. Does anyone actually think black legends for bottom mods like the original would ever outsell regular mods for example? I'm all for civilised discussion but let's please get real here, there's no need to continue hammering on with decisions that are blatantly obvious.

Well this is an interest check and I for one am not interested in icon mods so I state my preference when the issue is discussed.
It's not gatekeeping. What got me interested in this set was to have cylindrical space cadet keycaps. If it's going to be apl legends on gmk then I'm not interested and as this is an interest check I think it's fair to say it.
If it's so obvious that people are not interested in centered legends or text only mods then there is no need for an interest check.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 February 2018, 13:36:13
If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? ... This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..

Removing the modifier icons is really just an aesthetic decision. One side can argue to keep the icons because that's the "norm" for Cherry-profile keycaps, and the other side can argue to remove the icons because they are not part of the Space Cadet legendarium. If Oblotzky wants to treat this IC like a democracy then he should take a poll, see if one preference heavily predominates, and then decide which way to go based on those results. I'm a purist who prefers text-only mods because this is the "Space Cadet" set after all, and the fewer aesthetic compromises you have to make the better in my view. But to be honest, the presence of icons on the modifiers would not deter me from buying the set.

FWIW, I would not call the original Space Cadet "icon heavy," in fact the only icons on it are the four hands. Everything else is text (roman numerals and APL characters are textual, not iconic).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: roostrc0gburn on Thu, 22 February 2018, 13:40:53
this is what i want to buy

(http://i.imgur.com/LCSK8S9.jpg)

please do not subject us to this.

(http://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)

i think if people want centered legends, they should look for a different profile. corner legends are part of the cherry profile, and anything else is blasphemy
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 13:42:38
I'll just be honest here, permit me the shift of discussion to numbers - what do you guys think will sell better? Cornered legends or centered legends? I think the answer is obvious. How many people are gonna buy this because it's an exact replica of an old keyboard that follows very strict construction and how many are gonna buy it because it's a cool set that happens to pay homage to a very meaningful keyboard from way back?

Sales should not be impaired by gatekeeping. Sales should not be impaired by having to completely replicate the original to not piss purists off. Does anyone actually think black legends for bottom mods like the original would ever outsell regular mods for example? I'm all for civilised discussion but let's please get real here, there's no need to continue hammering on with decisions that are blatantly obvious.

Before answering your first question, I think numbers are a priority to a point (MOQ?) but the legacy sets will carry for years are probably more important and I look to Oblotzky's purpose/desires here. I think there are several variations of this tribute (cornered or not) capable of far beyond MOQ and there are factors in either direction that could influence - possibly the familiarity of cornered legends will draw more in (the APL legends are pretty stylish anyway), or possibly something different than what we're used to but well executed sparks a lot of attention.

This set won't be an exact replica as it is GMK. I think those interested would not drop out of the GB because of further separation from the original. Which brings me to the purpose, Oblotzky stated that it was important that this be replicated closely and while I really like the possible centered or vertical left aligned options I fully understand forgoing some original aspects of the set for aesthetic purposes. I would then question that if the alpha legends surrendered to Cherry's styling, why the modifiers wouldn't be as well? Of course, the balance is up to Oblotzky and he has a great eye - so I am just providing my thoughts in which I know I am not alone, like AMongoose said, this is an interest check, so (and I know this wasn't directed at just me but) calling people's discussion of interests "hammering on" is kinda rood.

I for one am not interested in icon mods so I state my preference when the issue is discussed.

I wonder how popular this preference is? Even for Text + Icon - not just icon only...

I feel bad for those that share this preference as it greatly limits your options, especially in the realm of Cherry profile caps, your preference exists almost solely in Oblotzky's GMK Oblivion if I'm not mistaken and the current direction of this set, from what I can tell. With that being said, I totally understand why you state your preference, however uncommon.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 13:51:38
If you were to do cornered legends though, why remove the icons? ... This is a very icon heavy set anyway but I guess that is more of a personal preference..
the fewer aesthetic compromises you have to make the better in my view. But to be honest, the presence of icons on the modifiers would not deter me from buying the set.

FWIW, I would not call the original Space Cadet "icon heavy," in fact the only icons on it are the four hands. Everything else is text (roman numerals and APL characters are textual, not iconic).

This makes sense. I suppose my view would be that if you make the cornered legends compromise, that compromising the modifiers would be best for the harmony of the set. I will be interested regardless, as I've said.

Thank you for correcting me there  :thumb: , I was wondering about that choice of words, perhaps saying the set was already a legend busy one or one with many symbols would have been more accurate.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Thu, 22 February 2018, 13:54:54
Well this is an interest check and I for one am not interested in icon mods so I state my preference when the issue is discussed.
It's not gatekeeping. What got me interested in this set was to have cylindrical space cadet keycaps. If it's going to be apl legends on gmk then I'm not interested and as this is an interest check I think it's fair to say it.
If it's so obvious that people are not interested in centered legends or text only mods then there is no need for an interest check.

Your response is entire fair, my point was that having some back and forth about "real space cadet" vs "fake space cadet" (and snarky remarks like "so you're saying you hate Space Cadet") just seems moot - furthermore, the point of the interest check at its inception was not to decide between cornered and centred legends/icon mods vs text mods etc but to gauge interest in Oblotzky's rendition of it; the additional renders were only quickly sketched out to see how it looked as far as I know.

I think focusing on small improvements rather than drastic changes would be most meaningful way to go about it.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 22 February 2018, 14:43:34
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: roostrc0gburn on Thu, 22 February 2018, 15:12:29
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

that is certainly no concern for people who are interested in GMK Space Cadet
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 22 February 2018, 15:13:13
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

my thought as well, even though i want corner legends
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 22 February 2018, 18:30:45
What if Return, Backspace(s) and Tab were moved into the black mod kit to make an OG mod kit and the base kit would have regular cherry modifiers (or icons? :woi2:) to match the alphas. It would require adding 4 more keys to the base set, though, I think and a bit bigger of a mod kit. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone uhh spewing my thoughts all over this thread
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Thu, 22 February 2018, 19:29:19

I just want what Oblotzky originally had, maybe with the greek front legends  :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: OracleKev on Thu, 22 February 2018, 20:05:19

I just want what Oblotzky originally had, maybe with the greek front legends  :eek:

+1 best balance so far :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Thu, 22 February 2018, 20:43:52

I just want what Oblotzky originally had, maybe with the greek front legends  :eek:

+1 best balance so far :eek:
Thirded with this notion. Everything else is kinda nitpicky :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Mr_BeastQuake on Thu, 22 February 2018, 20:53:27
I think the original iteration from OP looks great. Hope to see it soon, though my wallet may be a bit ailing.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ricyuyc on Fri, 23 February 2018, 00:26:37
this is what i want to buy

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/LCSK8S9.jpg)


please do not subject us to this.

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/raFaB7o.jpg)


i think if people want centered legends, they should look for a different profile. corner legends are part of the cherry profile, and anything else is blasphemy
Cannot agree any more  :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: AMongoose on Fri, 23 February 2018, 07:57:37
What if Return, Backspace(s) and Tab were moved into the black mod kit to make an OG mod kit and the base kit would have regular cherry modifiers (or icons? :woi2:) to match the alphas. It would require adding 4 more keys to the base set, though, I think and a bit bigger of a mod kit. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone uhh spewing my thoughts all over this thread

So the white/black kit would have text only and the base would be white with text+icons?
That would be reasonable if there are more people wanting text+icon than text only i guess.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Fri, 23 February 2018, 08:09:52
What if Return, Backspace(s) and Tab were moved into the black mod kit to make an OG mod kit and the base kit would have regular cherry modifiers (or icons? :woi2:) to match the alphas. It would require adding 4 more keys to the base set, though, I think and a bit bigger of a mod kit. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone uhh spewing my thoughts all over this thread

So the white/black kit would have text only and the base would be white with text+icons?
That would be reasonable if there are more people wanting text+icon than text only i guess.

Yes, that was my thought. I'm not very experienced in managing kits though, and there would probably be some residual effects to the cost etc. that I'm unable to estimate.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Fri, 23 February 2018, 08:44:50
Text only mods.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Fri, 23 February 2018, 09:36:36
.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 23 February 2018, 12:20:45
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

that is certainly no concern for people who are interested in GMK Space Cadet

No, but you seem to think people can just go out and find some other profile with centered Space Cadet legends, as if that was some sort of viable solution for them, which it is not. It is merely a dismissive attempt to shove fans of centered legends out of the conversation.

Of course, there is really no debate to be had here anyway since Oblotzky is certainly not going to put centered legends on GMK keycaps for fear of alienating the Cherry-profile traditionalists. I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't caved in to the pressure to add icons to the modifiers, but there's still time for that to happen I guess.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: roostrc0gburn on Fri, 23 February 2018, 12:34:39
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

that is certainly no concern for people who are interested in GMK Space Cadet

No, but you seem to think people can just go out and find some other profile with centered Space Cadet legends, as if that was some sort of viable solution for them, which it is not. It is merely a dismissive attempt to shove fans of centered legends out of the conversation.

Of course, there is really no debate to be had here anyway since Oblotzky is certainly not going to put centered legends on GMK keycaps for fear of alienating the Cherry-profile traditionalists. I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't caved in to the pressure to add icons to the modifiers, but there's still time for that to happen I guess.

GMK Space Cadet isn't a "second chance" set for people who like the SA set but could not get one. As much as you may want this to be, this set is not a replica of the SA version. This is a recreation in GMK profile, which is a translation from the original font, legend placement and orientation, cap profile, etc.

Centered legends are not part of the cherry profile. if you want centered legends, you need to pick a different profile.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 23 February 2018, 13:00:30
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

that is certainly no concern for people who are interested in GMK Space Cadet

No, but you seem to think people can just go out and find some other profile with centered Space Cadet legends, as if that was some sort of viable solution for them, which it is not. It is merely a dismissive attempt to shove fans of centered legends out of the conversation.

Of course, there is really no debate to be had here anyway since Oblotzky is certainly not going to put centered legends on GMK keycaps for fear of alienating the Cherry-profile traditionalists. I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't caved in to the pressure to add icons to the modifiers, but there's still time for that to happen I guess.

GMK Space Cadet isn't a "second chance" set for people who like the SA set but could not get one. As much as you may want this to be, this set is not a replica of the SA version. This is a recreation in GMK profile, which is a translation from the original font, legend placement and orientation, cap profile, etc.

Centered legends are not part of the cherry profile. if you want centered legends, you need to pick a different profile.

DCS space cadet centered legends when
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: blighty on Fri, 23 February 2018, 13:04:21
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

that is certainly no concern for people who are interested in GMK Space Cadet

No, but you seem to think people can just go out and find some other profile with centered Space Cadet legends, as if that was some sort of viable solution for them, which it is not. It is merely a dismissive attempt to shove fans of centered legends out of the conversation.

Of course, there is really no debate to be had here anyway since Oblotzky is certainly not going to put centered legends on GMK keycaps for fear of alienating the Cherry-profile traditionalists. I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't caved in to the pressure to add icons to the modifiers, but there's still time for that to happen I guess.

GMK Space Cadet isn't a "second chance" set for people who like the SA set but could not get one. As much as you may want this to be, this set is not a replica of the SA version. This is a recreation in GMK profile, which is a translation from the original font, legend placement and orientation, cap profile, etc.

Centered legends are not part of the cherry profile. if you want centered legends, you need to pick a different profile.

Centered legends could be a part of the cherry profile, at least for the alphas in this buy that all need new molds made anyway. 
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Fri, 23 February 2018, 13:04:36
To those who say, "If you want centered legends, then just go buy the spherical version of Space Cadet," I'd dearly love to know where you expect interested buyers to find such a thing.

that is certainly no concern for people who are interested in GMK Space Cadet

No, but you seem to think people can just go out and find some other profile with centered Space Cadet legends, as if that was some sort of viable solution for them, which it is not. It is merely a dismissive attempt to shove fans of centered legends out of the conversation.

Of course, there is really no debate to be had here anyway since Oblotzky is certainly not going to put centered legends on GMK keycaps for fear of alienating the Cherry-profile traditionalists. I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't caved in to the pressure to add icons to the modifiers, but there's still time for that to happen I guess.

GMK Space Cadet isn't a "second chance" set for people who like the SA set but could not get one. As much as you may want this to be, this set is not a replica of the SA version. This is a recreation in GMK profile, which is a translation from the original font, legend placement and orientation, cap profile, etc.

Centered legends are not part of the cherry profile. if you want centered legends, you need to pick a different profile.

I mean, text only modifiers are not traditionally a part of Cherry profile either but I don't see you or anyone else chiming in about that despite many people voicing their preference for icon +text or icon only in the past.

edit: And I wouldn't call the idea of centered legends blasphemy either. Its just plastic, man  ;) I think it could look good, even if its not up for consideration in this set (I think this IC has moved passed that..)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: AMongoose on Fri, 23 February 2018, 13:12:20
Centered legends are not part of the cherry profile. if you want centered legends, you need to pick a different profile.

No they are not. Good for you if you want them, but the only reason gmk sets have cornered legends is because of the existing molds. It's completely legitimate to suggest a different alignment as there will be new molds made regardless.

I'ts not like there haven't been dyesub spherical keysets made with cornered legends, or cherry profile with no legends at all. It's not a characteristic of the profile.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 23 February 2018, 13:44:51
GMK Space Cadet isn't a "second chance" set for people who like the SA set but could not get one. As much as you may want this to be, this set is not a replica of the SA version. This is a recreation in GMK profile, which is a translation from the original font, legend placement and orientation, cap profile, etc.

Yeah, I do understand all that. But judging from the different requests/opinions in this thread, the exact direction of the "translation" from the original is neither obvious nor a foregone conclusion just because they are going to end up on cylindrical keycaps. Aping the typical corner-legend-&-text-with-icons-mods aesthetic is merely one possible choice, and not necessarily the best one for this tribute set. It would only be the "best" choice if the majority of buyers wanted that and Oblotzky's main concern was sales. Neither of those may be true in this case.

Quote
Centered legends are not part of the cherry profile. if you want centered legends, you need to pick a different profile.

I can see how you might feel that way based on the prevalent use of existing molds and the philosophy of taking the path of least resistance. But this set will require all new molds for the alphas anyway, so the style and orientation of the legends on the existing GMK molds is of no technical or logical consequence.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: asura on Fri, 23 February 2018, 16:58:03
Not only is the font location a compromise, so is the scale - the original space cadet has a much greater font to key ratio than what you're proposing...

It also feels really weird that you have the roman alphabet above the "alternate" symbols in complete opposition to the original...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Fri, 23 February 2018, 17:10:48
Not only is the font location a compromise, so is the scale - the original space cadet has a much greater font to key ratio than what you're proposing...

It also feels really weird that you have the roman alphabet above the "alternate" symbols in complete opposition to the original...


I had a similar realization yesterday. However, it is unlikely that the double shot molds for the legends in the standard position may be used for legends at any other different one. I think the Lisp symbols will require new molds anyway so maybe it would be an opportunity to have the legends adjusted to the true original.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: OracleKev on Fri, 23 February 2018, 22:58:57
Not only is the font location a compromise, so is the scale - the original space cadet has a much greater font to key ratio than what you're proposing...

It also feels really weird that you have the roman alphabet above the "alternate" symbols in complete opposition to the original...


I had a similar realization yesterday. However, it is unlikely that the double shot molds for the legends in the standard position may be used for legends at any other different one. I think the Lisp symbols will require new molds anyway so maybe it would be an opportunity to have the legends adjusted to the true original.

RE the position of the primary versus alternate legends, someone mentioned that about a week or two ago.
My take is it's as weird if not more to have alternate on top and primary on bottom like original Space Cadet.
I guess it's because most keysets (not only Cherry) now days have primary on top.
There are many opinions pointing out inconsistency with the original design, but that was 3+ decades ago, different profile, etc.
Logical consistency probably is easy to identify and tag onto, but it may not be right for the design overall.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sat, 24 February 2018, 08:55:00
Not only is the font location a compromise, so is the scale - the original space cadet has a much greater font to key ratio than what you're proposing...

It also feels really weird that you have the roman alphabet above the "alternate" symbols in complete opposition to the original...


I had a similar realization yesterday. However, it is unlikely that the double shot molds for the legends in the standard position may be used for legends at any other different one. I think the Lisp symbols will require new molds anyway so maybe it would be an opportunity to have the legends adjusted to the true original.

RE the position of the primary versus alternate legends, someone mentioned that about a week or two ago.
My take is it's as weird if not more to have alternate on top and primary on bottom like original Space Cadet.
I guess it's because most keysets (not only Cherry) now days have primary on top.
There are many opinions pointing out inconsistency with the original design, but that was 3+ decades ago, different profile, etc.
Logical consistency probably is easy to identify and tag onto, but it may not be right for the design overall.

I can see where are you coming; but, this is a try on recreating a vintage key set under modern standards, therefore, any consideration leading to that end are valid, al least, they deserve to be explored.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sat, 24 February 2018, 11:41:06
If you look at most GMK keyset designs, the legends have nothing to do with their theme, their identity, or their distinctiveness. Those qualities are always achieved through colorway and a handful of novelty legends. Because of this, the style of the legends on 99% of GMK keysets don't matter, and so there is no compelling reason to depart from the de facto standard that will allow existing molds to be used and keep costs down. But that isn't the case here. The unique legend style of the original Space Cadet keyboard is a critical part of its distinctive identity, and if you take that away, you aren't really doing a "Space Cadet" keycap set, but merely one loosely inspired by it. The fact that Oblotzky is choosing to incur the costs of new molds for the legends clearly says that he intends this to be more faithful to the original keyboard than to the countless Cherry-profile keycap sets for which the legends don't matter. In light of that, the choice to depart (at all) from the original keyboard's legend style becomes hard to fathom or justify.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sat, 24 February 2018, 12:48:47
If you look at most GMK keyset designs, the legends have nothing to do with their theme, their identity, or their distinctiveness. Those qualities are always achieved through colorway and a handful of novelty legends. Because of this, the style of the legends on 99% of GMK keysets don't matter, and so there is no compelling reason to depart from the de facto standard that will allow existing molds to be used and keep costs down. But that isn't the case here. The unique legend style of the original Space Cadet keyboard is a critical part of its distinctive identity, and if you take that away, you aren't really doing a "Space Cadet" keycap set, but merely one loosely inspired by it. The fact that Oblotzky is choosing to incur the costs of new molds for the legends clearly says that he intends this to be more faithful to the original keyboard than to the countless Cherry-profile keycap sets for which the legends don't matter. In light of that, the choice to depart (at all) from the original keyboard's legend style becomes hard to fathom or justify.


+1


Translation: this set should have the special Lisp legends to be authentic.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 24 February 2018, 13:29:37
i think y'all are overthinking this
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sat, 24 February 2018, 14:11:21
i think y'all are overthinking this


Of course we are. It is just part of the fun with each new set coming. Unless we were not keyboard aficionados, we may take any consumer level keyboard no matter what.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: euphxenos on Sat, 24 February 2018, 14:31:18
It's a bit of a tangent, but I wonder how well Space Cadet would work as an all-over dyesub on Matt3o's MT3 profile.  Spherical and no mold fees.  It would make it easier to offer multiple variations on the legends, since that seems to be contentious.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Sat, 24 February 2018, 15:37:09
Mt3 dyesub.. puke. Legends were horrible on that.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Sat, 24 February 2018, 15:49:10
i think y'all are overthinking this

Oh, this is nothing compared to the depth and extent of the community input that went into DSA Granite. The debate over its typeface alone went on for months...

It's a bit of a tangent, but I wonder how well Space Cadet would work as an all-over dyesub on Matt3o's MT3 profile.

Did matt3o indicate an ability to do complete-coverage dyesub for MT3 while I wasn't looking?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 24 February 2018, 15:56:12
i think y'all are overthinking this

Oh, this is nothing compared to the depth and extent of the community input that went into DSA Granite. The debate over its typeface alone went on for months...


i know, i was there and said the same thing then too

although it turned out well

Quote
It's a bit of a tangent, but I wonder how well Space Cadet would work as an all-over dyesub on Matt3o's MT3 profile.

Did matt3o indicate an ability to do complete-coverage dyesub for MT3 while I wasn't looking?

nope
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Mon, 26 February 2018, 02:32:40
Maybe I'm missing something (sorta new around geekhack) but why hasn't there been any kind of vote or poll done. Someone earlier made an elaborate post about how it'd be insane to kill sales by trying to do center legends on cherry profile and while that may be true wouldn't it be best put to a vote? For example, this set's already pretty unique when it comes to Cherry profiles in that it has its own legends.

Besides, I think if you included a note about how the centered legends were being true to the history of the keycap set in the description of the GB sale it would add a unique twist on just any old insert GMK colorway keycap set here. It would make it more GMK Space cadet instead of GMK gray/blue. Only way to find out how people might react would be to poll them... hmm... interesting!

Those are just my opinions though I totally see why people wouldn't want to shake the boat and try weird stuff with cherry profile. I've said it before but I will buy no matter what because I love the colorway.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: chuckdee on Mon, 26 February 2018, 08:22:13
Maybe I'm missing something (sorta new around geekhack) but why hasn't there been any kind of vote or poll done. Someone earlier made an elaborate post about how it'd be insane to kill sales by trying to do center legends on cherry profile and while that may be true wouldn't it be best put to a vote? For example, this set's already pretty unique when it comes to Cherry profiles in that it has its own legends.

Besides, I think if you included a note about how the centered legends were being true to the history of the keycap set in the description of the GB sale it would add a unique twist on just any old insert GMK colorway keycap set here. It would make it more GMK Space cadet instead of GMK gray/blue. Only way to find out how people might react would be to poll them... hmm... interesting!

Those are just my opinions though I totally see why people wouldn't want to shake the boat and try weird stuff with cherry profile. I've said it before but I will buy no matter what because I love the colorway.

Because the IC's in general are to give feedback to the designer, who then makes their own decisions.  It's the designer's choice, in the end, not the community's.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Mon, 26 February 2018, 12:06:24
Maybe I'm missing something (sorta new around geekhack) but why hasn't there been any kind of vote or poll done. Someone earlier made an elaborate post about how it'd be insane to kill sales by trying to do center legends on cherry profile and while that may be true wouldn't it be best put to a vote? For example, this set's already pretty unique when it comes to Cherry profiles in that it has its own legends.

Besides, I think if you included a note about how the centered legends were being true to the history of the keycap set in the description of the GB sale it would add a unique twist on just any old insert GMK colorway keycap set here. It would make it more GMK Space cadet instead of GMK gray/blue. Only way to find out how people might react would be to poll them... hmm... interesting!

Those are just my opinions though I totally see why people wouldn't want to shake the boat and try weird stuff with cherry profile. I've said it before but I will buy no matter what because I love the colorway.

Because the IC's in general are to give feedback to the designer, who then makes their own decisions.  It's the designer's choice, in the end, not the community's.

I see that makes sense. Seems like polling would be a good way to give feedback to the designer though right? Rather than people on both sides of the legends debate claiming their side is "to help it reach MOQ" like that's an obvious statement.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: chuckdee on Mon, 26 February 2018, 12:11:34
Polling would to some people imply that their opinion really matters more than the designer.  If he needs polling, I'm sure he'll run it.  But that might not be the feedback he wanted or needed.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Mon, 26 February 2018, 23:10:25
I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Tue, 27 February 2018, 02:19:35
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ricyuyc on Tue, 27 February 2018, 02:30:23
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.
That's True.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 27 February 2018, 02:43:52
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

same

that or lack of funds
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Tue, 27 February 2018, 10:57:19
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nsmechkb on Tue, 27 February 2018, 11:22:30
Pretty sure it's already been decided, but the centered legends have grown on me. Maybe another time, haha!

The original still looks great, it just seems a bit busy in comparison.

[Edit: removed edit comment.]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Tue, 27 February 2018, 12:14:53
I think centered legends are the only legends that look right (regardless of keycap shape); corner legends just look like a factory mistake rather than a design choice. However, when it comes to GMK Space Cadet specifically, I can let that go because I already have my deepest Space Cadet needs served by my Round 6 keycaps (which even GMK keycaps with centered + front printed legends can't begin to compare favorably with simply by virtue of being cylindrical). I only argue in favor of centered legends because it is what is (thematically and philosophically) right, not because it is what I most want or need from this set personally.

I do acknowledge the increase in cost that would go with making every legend, not just the alphas, centered and all-uppercase. In fact, doing that would likely push the set out of reach for most hobbyists, and on that basis alone I favor corner legends on the alphas and standard modifier legends (minus the icons if such molds already exist).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Tue, 27 February 2018, 12:31:17
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

I’m referring TO the centered legend modifiers. They look like trash. Look at the left edge of center justified legends. Look at tab. Look at shift. It’s all over the place.

On standard left justified legends you get a starting point. An anchor for the stagger of the board.

The keys on a standard gmk set are aligned like print media. Center justified is just lazy trash. There was so much thought put into the original placement.

I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money, cause then I won’t be buying the set and I’m thinking I’d have to get at least 2 of every kit with CORRECTLY justified legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Tue, 27 February 2018, 13:08:30
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

I’m referring TO the centered legend modifiers. They look like trash. Look at the left edge of center justified legends. Look at tab. Look at shift. It’s all over the place.

On standard left justified legends you get a starting point. An anchor for the stagger of the board.

The keys on a standard gmk set are aligned like print media. Center justified is just lazy trash. There was so much thought put into the original placement.

I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money, cause then I won’t be buying the set and I’m thinking I’d have to get at least 2 of every kit with CORRECTLY justified legends.

Did you miss my entire point? I and others in this thread agree with you as far as centered mods vs left justified. But, you can have centered Alphas legends with off centered mods legends. Yeah it looks a bit odd with the combination of two different locations but to me it's better than having off centered alpha legends.

Lazy trash wtf are you even talking about this is a forum about keyboard/keycap designs nothing here is lazy we're having a discussion about the pros/cons of different designs.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Tue, 27 February 2018, 13:22:11
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

I’m referring TO the centered legend modifiers. They look like trash. Look at the left edge of center justified legends. Look at tab. Look at shift. It’s all over the place.

On standard left justified legends you get a starting point. An anchor for the stagger of the board.

The keys on a standard gmk set are aligned like print media. Center justified is just lazy trash. There was so much thought put into the original placement.

I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money, cause then I won’t be buying the set and I’m thinking I’d have to get at least 2 of every kit with CORRECTLY justified legends.

Did you miss my entire point? I and others in this thread agree with you as far as centered mods vs left justified. But, you can have centered Alphas legends with off centered mods legends. Yeah it looks a bit odd with the combination of two different locations but to me it's better than having off centered alpha legends.

Lazy trash wtf are you even talking about this is a forum about keyboard/keycap designs nothing here is lazy we're having a discussion about the pros/cons of different designs.

You just love bad ideas huh. I wasn’t considering mixed justification because that is 100x worse.

Center legends are bad design. I get it, you like them. But if you did mixed justification id sooner pay people to not buy the set than actually spend money on it.

Center legends are bad. Just say no.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Tue, 27 February 2018, 13:37:14
Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

I’m referring TO the centered legend modifiers. They look like trash. Look at the left edge of center justified legends. Look at tab. Look at shift. It’s all over the place.

On standard left justified legends you get a starting point. An anchor for the stagger of the board.

The keys on a standard gmk set are aligned like print media. Center justified is just lazy trash. There was so much thought put into the original placement.

I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money, cause then I won’t be buying the set and I’m thinking I’d have to get at least 2 of every kit with CORRECTLY justified legends.

Did you miss my entire point? I and others in this thread agree with you as far as centered mods vs left justified. But, you can have centered Alphas legends with off centered mods legends. Yeah it looks a bit odd with the combination of two different locations but to me it's better than having off centered alpha legends.

Lazy trash wtf are you even talking about this is a forum about keyboard/keycap designs nothing here is lazy we're having a discussion about the pros/cons of different designs.

You just love bad ideas huh. I wasn’t considering mixed justification because that is 100x worse.

Center legends are bad design. I get it, you like them. But if you did mixed justification id sooner pay people to not buy the set than actually spend money on it.

Center legends are bad. Just say no.

I don't really care for the way you rudely state your opinions as fact. The way you present your arguments makes it seem like you don't really care tbh, like this -

"I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money"

Why should anyone consider your thoughts here at all? Its not based on any information or facts, just an opinion on a few options you've never even seen before, not even rendered correctly
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Tue, 27 February 2018, 13:50:31
Center legends will add cost, unless you half ass it and only center the alphabetical alphas, and leave numbers, function, numpad as cornered. Which is a horrible idea. Then you get into modifiers such as navigation keys which would look awkward as justified keys in comparison.. and cost gets totally out of hand. Stick with cornered and left justified.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Tue, 27 February 2018, 14:03:43
Center legends will add cost, unless you half ass it and only center the alphabetical alphas, and leave numbers, function, numpad as cornered. Which is a horrible idea. Then you get into modifiers such as navigation keys which would look awkward as justified keys in comparison.. and cost gets totally out of hand. Stick with cornered and left justified.

That's a good point.

Some quick back of the napkin math is $180 for each extra mold, 30 new molds (might even be more), $10.8 dollars more for 500 people, $5.4 dollars more for 1000, and $3.6 more for 1500. That's a lot more significant than I'd originally have thought.

I guess i'll have to deal with the fact I think the symbols introduced in the alphas when not on the center axis look obtuse/awkward.

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Tue, 27 February 2018, 14:04:17
Center legends will add cost, unless you half ass it and only center the alphabetical alphas, and leave numbers, function, numpad as cornered. Which is a horrible idea. Then you get into modifiers such as navigation keys which would look awkward as justified keys in comparison.. and cost gets totally out of hand. Stick with cornered and left justified.

Mixed justification and everything centered (especially the mods) don't sound pretty to me either but I've never seen it and would never shoot down anyone's ideas without fully considering/exploring the possibility.

I actually thought the centered alphas looked good and that was one render of one layout with the legends inverted and without considering other mod options - look at all the 2u keys from the original space cadet, perhaps some of those legends could be borrowed to fix the font to key ratio that is off balance, as asura said, especially in the everything centered render.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Tue, 27 February 2018, 18:42:23

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

Currently this set is needing 26-33(3900€-4950€) custom molds due to the sublegends. Changing all alphas to centered would require an additional 7(1050€) molds for currently unmodified characters, 19(1350€) if you include numrow, 33(4950€) more if you include numpad as well. While the argument could be made that the alphas could be centered without the mods or numpad, choosing to ignore the numrow would look objectively incorrect and mismatched.

My $.02 concerning the completely unnecessary argument about centered legends: anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow, so I don't see a point in catering to them with unconventional centered legends that aren't going to look correct to anyone that enjoys cherry profile for its merits, especially when it would cost more for everyone else joining the GB to make the change. Someone used the argument that if the centered legends were done, they'd be available for future sets. That's great and all except that the centered legends would only be available with the lisp sublegends, making them absolutely useless to anyone that wants a set without them.

Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: TechieWeirdo on Tue, 27 February 2018, 19:09:47
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Tue, 27 February 2018, 19:15:59

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

Currently this set is needing 26-33(3900€-4950€) custom molds due to the sublegends. Changing all alphas to centered would require an additional 7(1050€) molds for currently unmodified characters, 19(1350€) if you include numrow, 33(4950€) more if you include numpad as well. While the argument could be made that the alphas could be centered without the mods or numpad, choosing to ignore the numrow would look objectively incorrect and mismatched.

My $.02 concerning the completely unnecessary argument about centered legends: anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow, so I don't see a point in catering to them with unconventional centered legends that aren't going to look correct to anyone that enjoys cherry profile for its merits, especially when it would cost more for everyone else joining the GB to make the change. Someone used the argument that if the centered legends were done, they'd be available for future sets. That's great and all except that the centered legends would only be available with the lisp sublegends, making them absolutely useless to anyone that wants a set without them.

Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.

You have a completely valid point about the cost. When I made that original argument I wasn't thinking properly about the ramifications cost wise.

However, you are absolutely mistaken in assuming that everyone who wants centered legends wants them because they want to copy something "old and decrepit". I want centered legends not because it's a better copy of the original set but because I think it looks better. I acknowledge that my interests to save money outweigh it though so I eagerly await the set as it was originally introduced.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Tue, 27 February 2018, 19:29:10
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them. 
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: TechieWeirdo on Tue, 27 February 2018, 19:43:53
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them. 

Oh well, such a shame. I really like this keyset and I would love to see proper legends and profiles on it... Thanks a lot. Though I believe that SA By the Sea has full compatibility for the Pearl.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Tue, 27 February 2018, 20:08:21
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them. 

Oh well, such a shame. I really like this keyset and I would love to see proper legends and profiles on it... Thanks a lot. Though I believe that SA By the Sea has full compatibility for the Pearl.


But only this is GMK... :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Tue, 27 February 2018, 20:10:21
Isn't the blue alpha kit missing the row 1 tilde key?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Tue, 27 February 2018, 20:12:43
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Just my thoughts: if it becomes a trend, sure, but I personally don't think it's worth doing if only one board supports it (even if it sold 100 or 10,000).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Tue, 27 February 2018, 22:19:51
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them. 

Oh well, such a shame. I really like this keyset and I would love to see proper legends and profiles on it... Thanks a lot. Though I believe that SA By the Sea has full compatibility for the Pearl.

You're right it does.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Tue, 27 February 2018, 22:40:36
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them.

I'd just like to point out that the current 40's kit for Neon Gelatin Evangelism includes R3 1.5 Enter and Fn keys, specifically so pearl could use it without that ugly hump :P

Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

I’m referring TO the centered legend modifiers. They look like trash. Look at the left edge of center justified legends. Look at tab. Look at shift. It’s all over the place.

On standard left justified legends you get a starting point. An anchor for the stagger of the board.

The keys on a standard gmk set are aligned like print media. Center justified is just lazy trash. There was so much thought put into the original placement.

I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money, cause then I won’t be buying the set and I’m thinking I’d have to get at least 2 of every kit with CORRECTLY justified legends.

Did you miss my entire point? I and others in this thread agree with you as far as centered mods vs left justified. But, you can have centered Alphas legends with off centered mods legends. Yeah it looks a bit odd with the combination of two different locations but to me it's better than having off centered alpha legends.

Lazy trash wtf are you even talking about this is a forum about keyboard/keycap designs nothing here is lazy we're having a discussion about the pros/cons of different designs.

You just love bad ideas huh. I wasn’t considering mixed justification because that is 100x worse.

Center legends are bad design. I get it, you like them. But if you did mixed justification id sooner pay people to not buy the set than actually spend money on it.

Center legends are bad. Just say no.

I don't really care for the way you rudely state your opinions as fact. The way you present your arguments makes it seem like you don't really care tbh, like this -

"I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money"

Why should anyone consider your thoughts here at all? Its not based on any information or facts, just an opinion on a few options you've never even seen before, not even rendered correctly

I'm sorry I didn't realize everything I said that didn't implicitly include the words "in my opinion" was going to be taken as a statement of fact.

So please allow me to be clear.

The GMK legends are EXTREMELY intentionally designed. It wasn't just some lazy thing.

When I say mixed justification is 100x worse, first I am NOT being literal, but rather hyperbolic, but I am 100% positive if you took a mixed justification render and a standard cherry render and brought them the a design professor 10:10 would tell you the mixed justification was wrong.

By justifying to the left, you create an anchor, a starting point for your perspective. It creates the illusion of the entire layout being aligned because it STARTS aligned. You have to remember, we have trained our brains to read from a corner across, not from the middle. Good design doesn't just change what you see, but how you actually look at it.

You also risk doing things like creating a river or increasing the difficulty for dyslexic people to be able to properly read the legends (this may not matter to you, but a good designer will think about such things).

I also think the argument can easily be made that mixed justifications breaks one of the core design principals, consistency. An inconsistent design, by my measure, IS a bad design.

To me mixed justification is not even worth considering, and while it somehow offended you, I do regularly buy 2x+ of MOST gmk sets, so making this center justified WOULD save me a great deal of money given how much 2 full kits is likely to cost with the kit sizes and number of kits already being discussed here.

So now if we ignore mixed justification we can begin to look at our other options.

We could attempt fully justified, and I actually think for the right 60% board this could look decent, you could left align left mods, right align right mods and center align all the alphas, the problem there is that as soon as you scale PAST 60%, you are right back where you started, so then the question becomes which layout do you design for? Do you center align the right 60% legend and right align the numpad legends? Again. None of these options are consistent and all would ultimately still result in a mixed justification layout.

That ONLY leaves center justified only, but that means you need new legend plates for every single key on the board AND you are breaking compatibility with every single other GMK set being produced. It also opens the door to other problems, sure, with 2 legends you can add center justification on an alpha key without messing with vertical alignment, but what of single legend keys? Is your plan to run this set, spend a ton creating new legends just for center alignment and then never ever using any of those mods again? Or do you think you would want to make a non-space cadet alpha set too? So not just 1 expensive set, but 2 to make all that expense really worthwhile, otherwise you are spending a ton for a single run kit that will never be seen again.

You also ignore that as a standard GMK set, this should have no real issues hitting a decent moq, changing to something that is foreign to GMK buyers (since let's face it, not THAT many people are going to suddenly decide they need $200 in GMK keys just because center alignment) you risk alienating them. And with a kit like this, you need big numbers to cover the new legend costs.

So I'm curious, other than you personally being a fan of centered legends, what are the other upsides? What are the other benefits of using centered legends that negate and balance against the costs and risks? Are there any?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mbsurfer on Wed, 28 February 2018, 09:27:26

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

Currently this set is needing 26-33(3900€-4950€) custom molds due to the sublegends. Changing all alphas to centered would require an additional 7(1050€) molds for currently unmodified characters, 19(1350€) if you include numrow, 33(4950€) more if you include numpad as well. While the argument could be made that the alphas could be centered without the mods or numpad, choosing to ignore the numrow would look objectively incorrect and mismatched.

My $.02 concerning the completely unnecessary argument about centered legends: anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow, so I don't see a point in catering to them with unconventional centered legends that aren't going to look correct to anyone that enjoys cherry profile for its merits, especially when it would cost more for everyone else joining the GB to make the change. Someone used the argument that if the centered legends were done, they'd be available for future sets. That's great and all except that the centered legends would only be available with the lisp sublegends, making them absolutely useless to anyone that wants a set without them.

Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.

(https://i.imgur.com/N7EQWd0.gif)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 28 February 2018, 09:35:03
For anyone wanting SA or centered legends:

Symbiosis R2 (full sculpture) in the works
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.0;topicseen


I plan to purchase both sets :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 10:38:35
Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them.

I'd just like to point out that the current 40's kit for Neon Gelatin Evangelism includes R3 1.5 Enter and Fn keys, specifically so pearl could use it without that ugly hump :P

Centered legends are awful. The best thing about GMK sets is how well everything is aligned and justified. It's all in balance. Centering the legends ruins all of that, look at Tab and Shift. Centering the legends is like the only thing that would keep me from buying this set.

Did you not see the render of centered alphas but normal mods?

I am one of those that doesn't care about space cadet any and just wants this because it has cool sublegends and a monotone option. I'm not a fan of it being on Massdrop, but I may break my own rules and join the GB direct instead of waiting for mechmarket extras.

Also, in regards to the current argument, I'm pretty sure most of you missed the little post a couple pages back where it was said that making the legends centered would require many more molds than just the main alphas. ANSI only alphas, including numrow, would require 47(I think) new molds, and then you'd have your weird centered alphas with corner numpad and cornered mods. Realistically, you have 2 choices: centered alphas that don't match the modifiers or the numpad, or leave them cornered like they're supposed to be for cherry profile. Unless you want a base set that looks bad or costs $300, I'd say get your attitudes in check and accept cherry style legends on a cherry set.

This set is already requiring new Alpha molds (afaik no other said has had these symbols) so by changing ONLY to centered alphas you're not adding to the cost. And you can't say it objectively looks bad people have different tastes.

I’m referring TO the centered legend modifiers. They look like trash. Look at the left edge of center justified legends. Look at tab. Look at shift. It’s all over the place.

On standard left justified legends you get a starting point. An anchor for the stagger of the board.

The keys on a standard gmk set are aligned like print media. Center justified is just lazy trash. There was so much thought put into the original placement.

I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money, cause then I won’t be buying the set and I’m thinking I’d have to get at least 2 of every kit with CORRECTLY justified legends.

Did you miss my entire point? I and others in this thread agree with you as far as centered mods vs left justified. But, you can have centered Alphas legends with off centered mods legends. Yeah it looks a bit odd with the combination of two different locations but to me it's better than having off centered alpha legends.

Lazy trash wtf are you even talking about this is a forum about keyboard/keycap designs nothing here is lazy we're having a discussion about the pros/cons of different designs.

You just love bad ideas huh. I wasn’t considering mixed justification because that is 100x worse.

Center legends are bad design. I get it, you like them. But if you did mixed justification id sooner pay people to not buy the set than actually spend money on it.

Center legends are bad. Just say no.

I don't really care for the way you rudely state your opinions as fact. The way you present your arguments makes it seem like you don't really care tbh, like this -

"I guess in the plus side if you ruin the set with centered legends, I get to save a **** ton of money"

Why should anyone consider your thoughts here at all? Its not based on any information or facts, just an opinion on a few options you've never even seen before, not even rendered correctly

I'm sorry I didn't realize everything I said that didn't implicitly include the words "in my opinion" was going to be taken as a statement of fact.

So please allow me to be clear.

The GMK legends are EXTREMELY intentionally designed. It wasn't just some lazy thing.

When I say mixed justification is 100x worse, first I am NOT being literal, but rather hyperbolic, but I am 100% positive if you took a mixed justification render and a standard cherry render and brought them the a design professor 10:10 would tell you the mixed justification was wrong.

By justifying to the left, you create an anchor, a starting point for your perspective. It creates the illusion of the entire layout being aligned because it STARTS aligned. You have to remember, we have trained our brains to read from a corner across, not from the middle. Good design doesn't just change what you see, but how you actually look at it.

You also risk doing things like creating a river or increasing the difficulty for dyslexic people to be able to properly read the legends (this may not matter to you, but a good designer will think about such things).

I also think the argument can easily be made that mixed justifications breaks one of the core design principals, consistency. An inconsistent design, by my measure, IS a bad design.

To me mixed justification is not even worth considering, and while it somehow offended you, I do regularly buy 2x+ of MOST gmk sets, so making this center justified WOULD save me a great deal of money given how much 2 full kits is likely to cost with the kit sizes and number of kits already being discussed here.

So now if we ignore mixed justification we can begin to look at our other options.

We could attempt fully justified, and I actually think for the right 60% board this could look decent, you could left align left mods, right align right mods and center align all the alphas, the problem there is that as soon as you scale PAST 60%, you are right back where you started, so then the question becomes which layout do you design for? Do you center align the right 60% legend and right align the numpad legends? Again. None of these options are consistent and all would ultimately still result in a mixed justification layout.

That ONLY leaves center justified only, but that means you need new legend plates for every single key on the board AND you are breaking compatibility with every single other GMK set being produced. It also opens the door to other problems, sure, with 2 legends you can add center justification on an alpha key without messing with vertical alignment, but what of single legend keys? Is your plan to run this set, spend a ton creating new legends just for center alignment and then never ever using any of those mods again? Or do you think you would want to make a non-space cadet alpha set too? So not just 1 expensive set, but 2 to make all that expense really worthwhile, otherwise you are spending a ton for a single run kit that will never be seen again.

You also ignore that as a standard GMK set, this should have no real issues hitting a decent moq, changing to something that is foreign to GMK buyers (since let's face it, not THAT many people are going to suddenly decide they need $200 in GMK keys just because center alignment) you risk alienating them. And with a kit like this, you need big numbers to cover the new legend costs.

So I'm curious, other than you personally being a fan of centered legends, what are the other upsides? What are the other benefits of using centered legends that negate and balance against the costs and risks? Are there any?

Ahh, that's better, no offense taken:)

I completely understand and mostly agree with your point of view. I didn't originally consider mixed justification either, but I've never seen it and especially since I feel the current design had some inconsistency, I couldn't dismiss it on that basis. I mostly didn't like you mocking that other guy and/or anyone interested in centered legends. If you look back to my original reply in this thread, I only consider centered legends on the basis of Oblotzky saying he wants to replicate the original closely and while I think it could look good in a variation of centered, (and still hit MOQ) I definitely would be happy with a full cherry style as well, in contrast to what Donut said earlier... Alas, if centered legends will make this set much more expensive, I think it probably best to avoid them as this will be a big set already and that fact combined with the foreign design may turn many people away and I'm sure Oblotzky wouldn't want that

Thanks for taking the time mate  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Helldrop on Wed, 28 February 2018, 10:43:29

Currently this set is needing 26-33(3900€-4950€) custom molds due to the sublegends. Changing all alphas to centered would require an additional 7(1050€) molds for currently unmodified characters, 19(1350€) if you include numrow, 33(4950€) more if you include numpad as well. While the argument could be made that the alphas could be centered without the mods or numpad, choosing to ignore the numrow would look objectively incorrect and mismatched.

My $.02 concerning the completely unnecessary argument about centered legends: anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow, so I don't see a point in catering to them with unconventional centered legends that aren't going to look correct to anyone that enjoys cherry profile for its merits, especially when it would cost more for everyone else joining the GB to make the change. Someone used the argument that if the centered legends were done, they'd be available for future sets. That's great and all except that the centered legends would only be available with the lisp sublegends, making them absolutely useless to anyone that wants a set without them.

Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.

I'm totally with you.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 28 February 2018, 10:58:15
Isn't the blue alpha kit missing the row 1 tilde key?

Available in both the Base and Ergopreonic kits already.

Any chance for compatibility with the Pearl keyboard? From what I'm seeing it just needs an R3 1.5u "Tab" key and a R3 1.5u "Return key".

Unfortunately for people who enjoy proper legends and proper profiles for all caps, the pearl was designed specifically with the re-purposing of 1.5u tab and 1.5u backslash/pipe in mind.  This was done to allow the board to be used with essentially any keyset, but had the inverse affect of ensuring it would basically never be fully compatible with any keyset since I don't think any other board uses 1.5u keys in both positions, meaning no set has ever included them. 

Oh well, such a shame. I really like this keyset and I would love to see proper legends and profiles on it... Thanks a lot. Though I believe that SA By the Sea has full compatibility for the Pearl.

There'll most likely be a 40% kit, gonna work that out on a calm weekend.



I'll be chiming in on the legend debate at a later time, don't have the time for it right now sorry!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 28 February 2018, 12:49:35
...anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow...

That is a good point, and I agree with the premise, however I disagree with the conclusion. The above is not sufficient reason, in my view, to avoid honoring the original legend design, which is a good idea regardless of the style of keycap in question, particularly if you're going to call the set GMK Space Cadet.

Quote
Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.

And then this is where you go off the deep end. Centered legends can go on any keycap, Cherry or otherwise. It is only within the walls of an entombed mind/imagination that the above notion appears to make any sense whatsoever. The Space Cadet keyboard is old, yes, but it is a classic; it's called the "holy grail" of vintage keyboards for a reason, and there are no keyboards from the past I can think of that deserve being so reverently honored with contemporary replica keysets. By simply providing legend accuracy (in addition to the colorway), people are getting something new to enjoy. Compared to all the GMK sets out there, this would surely stand out as new and different.

...changing to something that is foreign to GMK buyers (since let's face it, not THAT many people are going to suddenly decide they need $200 in GMK keys just because center alignment) you risk alienating them.

The Space Cadet keyboard itself is foreign to most keyboard users, not just GMK buyers. This set shouldn't worry itself over who it alienates, rather, it should really only concern itself with appealing to its primary target audience, which is hobbyists who know and appreciate the original Space Cadet (whether they are frequent GMK buyers or not). All other priorities (apart from reaching MOQ) should be secondary.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 13:00:11
...anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow...

That is a good point, and I agree with the premise, however I disagree with the conclusion. The above is not sufficient reason, in my view, to avoid honoring the original legend design, which is a good idea regardless of the style of keycap in question, particularly if you're going to call the set GMK Space Cadet.

Quote
Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.

And then this is where you go off the deep end. Centered legends can go on any keycap, Cherry or otherwise. It is only within the walls of an entombed mind/imagination that the above notion appears to make any sense whatsoever. The Space Cadet keyboard is old, yes, but it is a classic; it's called the "holy grail" of vintage keyboards for a reason, and there are no keyboards from the past I can think of that deserve being so reverently honored with contemporary replica keysets. By simply providing legend accuracy (in addition to the colorway), people are getting something new to enjoy. Compared to all the GMK sets out there, this would surely stand out as new and different.

...changing to something that is foreign to GMK buyers (since let's face it, not THAT many people are going to suddenly decide they need $200 in GMK keys just because center alignment) you risk alienating them.

The Space Cadet keyboard itself is foreign to most keyboard users, not just GMK buyers. This set shouldn't worry itself over who it alienates, rather, it should really only concern itself with appealing to its primary target audience, which is hobbyists who know and appreciate the original Space Cadet (whether they are frequent GMK buyers or not). All other priorities (apart from reaching MOQ) should be secondary.

MD isn’t in the business of pleasing hobbyists. Laser was not successful because of them.

And while you as a hobbyist may be a fan of the centered legends, I hate them. I’m not the only one. What exactly is it about your opinion that makes it more valid than those who disagree? What makes it more valid than those who outnumber you?

Your argument seems to be “who cares if most people won’t buy it with centers legends, the few of us who want it this way would be extremely happy”.

You understand the reason Laser was affordable was because there were thousands of people ordering it right?

Also, where does it end? If you are gonna go that far, why don’t we just increase set price a couple hundred or thousand per set and get gmk to make spherical molds. But then they are too short, so might as well get them to make GMK SA, but then we are missing the front print legends, gotta fix that too. And so on and so on.

What about the centered legends makes you think adding them when the majority don’t want them, and given we already know people will buy offset legend sets with characters they don’t know is a good idea?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Wed, 28 February 2018, 13:56:03
--snip--

Quote
--snip--
--snip--
--snip--

--snip--

MD isn’t in the business of pleasing hobbyists. Laser was not successful because of them.

And while you as a hobbyist may be a fan of the centered legends, I hate them. I’m not the only one. What exactly is it about your opinion that makes it more valid than those who disagree? What makes it more valid than those who outnumber you?

Your argument seems to be “who cares if most people won’t buy it with centers legends, the few of us who want it this way would be extremely happy”.

You understand the reason Laser was affordable was because there were thousands of people ordering it right?

Also, where does it end? If you are gonna go that far, why don’t we just increase set price a couple hundred or thousand per set and get gmk to make spherical molds. But then they are too short, so might as well get them to make GMK SA, but then we are missing the front print legends, gotta fix that too. And so on and so on.

What about the centered legends makes you think adding them when the majority don’t want them, and given we already know people will buy offset legend sets with characters they don’t know is a good idea?

I don't mean to butt in but NOW you're arguing that his argument is wrong because he is stating his opinion?? It doesn't take much effort to read your previous 5 replies to get some insane quotes where you go into depth trying to argue that your opinion/preference for off-centered legends is grounded in some kind of fact beyond preference. " GMK legends are EXTREMELY intentionally designed" " increasing the difficulty for dyslexic people to be able to properly read the legends (this may not matter to you, but a good designer will think about such things)" "Center legends are bad design." "You have to remember, we have trained our brains to read from a corner across, not from the middle."

Get the **** out of here with your hypocrisy. Either it's a preference thing, and he's perfectly justified in stating his opinion for why he thinks centered will do well. Or, it's a matter of left justified being somehow "objectively" better in which case you can't dismiss his counter arguments as just stating opinion.

Quote
Also, where does it end? If you are gonna go that far, why don’t we just increase set price a couple hundred or thousand per set and get gmk to make spherical molds. But then they are too short, so might as well get them to make GMK SA, but then we are missing the front print legends, gotta fix that too. And so on and so on.

Slippery slope fallacy we're not discussing doing any of those things. This debate is centered entirely on center vs left justified text, not any of the other things you're talking about.

Quote
What about the centered legends makes you think adding them when the majority don’t want them, and given we already know people will buy offset legend sets with characters they don’t know is a good idea?

I don't think it's been clearly established offset legends is the majority opinion has it?

To that end I will drop this. I've made my opinion clear. I recognize the cost is high to the point where it's probably not worth it. Let's avoid clogging the whole thread with a personal back and forth.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hineybush on Wed, 28 February 2018, 14:19:41
Yikes what a mess

I don't know for sure, but I'm p sure the point of this set is to do the Space Cadet colorway/theme in GMK/Cherry profile styling.

I'd much prefer the original top-left justified render style, as it's absolutely more true to the GMK/Cherry profile aesthetic style. Centered legends aren't really a thing at all with the profile, so it doesn't make sense (to me, at least) to stray away from the styling that so many people love this specific profile for.

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 28 February 2018, 14:21:11
MD isn’t in the business of pleasing hobbyists.

Somehow I think MD themselves would disagree with you there.

Quote
And while you as a hobbyist may be a fan of the centered legends, I hate them. I’m not the only one. What exactly is it about your opinion that makes it more valid than those who disagree? What makes it more valid than those who outnumber you?

The name of the proposed keycap set ("Space Cadet") is where the validation stems. If it isn't going to aim for as much authenticity as technologically possible (and economically feasible), then it should perhaps use a different name.

Quote
Your argument seems to be “who cares if most people won’t buy it with centers legends, the few of us who want it this way would be extremely happy”.

My argument is that it is a worthwhile exercise to see if it can reach MOQ with centered legends. If it can, then there are no barriers to production, and therefore no intrinsic need to reach out to those who don't care that this is a Space Cadet keycap set, just to insure it can get made.

Quote
Also, where does it end? If you are gonna go that far, why don’t we just increase set price a couple hundred or thousand per set and get gmk to make spherical molds.

Well, I'd love to see another manufacturer get into the spherical game. Competition and shorter production backlogs are a good thing for the hobby. This set doesn't have to be the set that drives such an endeavor, but it is a worthy one nonetheless. And even if it was the set to do so, the cost wouldn't be that high; yes it would be higher, but GMK would amortize the cost of the molds over future sets, not just the first.

Quote
What about the centered legends makes you think adding them when the majority don’t want them, and given we already know people will buy offset legend sets with characters they don’t know is a good idea?

Not every keycap set is going to appeal to "the majority", nor should every keycap set even attempt to do so. That is far too limiting an approach to take. The first concern should be hitting MOQ, and only when that can't be achieved should the vision for a set be compromised by "appealing to the masses". But even then, watering down the concept should only occur in small steps, so that the fewest compromises necessary to achieve MOQ are made.

tl;dr - Not every set needs to--or should--aim for mass appeal, and certainly not a set with "Space Cadet" in its name.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hineybush on Wed, 28 February 2018, 14:28:06
Quote
And while you as a hobbyist may be a fan of the centered legends, I hate them. I’m not the only one. What exactly is it about your opinion that makes it more valid than those who disagree? What makes it more valid than those who outnumber you?

The name of the proposed keycap set ("Space Cadet") is where the validation stems. If it isn't going to aim for as much authenticity as technologically possible (and economically feasible), then it should perhaps use a different name.

I don't see the logic in this - because it's based on Space Cadet, it absolutely has to have centered legends? If it doesn't, it shouldn't be called Space Cadet? With that logic, other multi-profile sets like Dolch and Hyperfuse (and others) are "wrong" since they aren't all the same. People choose different profiles based on the quirks associated with them, primarily feel and look - some like how GMK/Cherry look, some prefer SA. That's fine, however it doesn't mean one is "better" than other other.

The centered legends work better on the spherical profiles of SA or DSA imo, since the text is finer and sometimes smaller. If this is going to be done in the classic Cherry profile style, I'd much prefer it to match other sublegended sets like the OG Cherry doubleshot sets or recent renditions. It wouldn't make as much sense to copy a completely different profile's positioning when Cherry profile has such a distinct look.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 14:47:28
I don't mean to butt in but NOW you're arguing that his argument is wrong because he is stating his opinion?? It doesn't take much effort to read your previous 5 replies to get some insane quotes where you go into depth trying to argue that your opinion/preference for off-centered legends is grounded in some kind of fact beyond preference. " GMK legends are EXTREMELY intentionally designed" " increasing the difficulty for dyslexic people to be able to properly read the legends (this may not matter to you, but a good designer will think about such things)" "Center legends are bad design." "You have to remember, we have trained our brains to read from a corner across, not from the middle."

Get the **** out of here with your hypocrisy. Either it's a preference thing, and he's perfectly justified in stating his opinion for why he thinks centered will do well. Or, it's a matter of left justified being somehow "objectively" better in which case you can't dismiss his counter arguments as just stating opinion.

How is something being bad for dyslexic people an opinion? Do you read from the middle out? Does any language work that way? Most are left to right, some are right to left, what language has writing from the middle out?

And he doesn't think centered legends would do well, he just thinks they would possibly hit moq and we should aim for that possibility. Are you seriously trying to argue that centered legends would sell better than standard GMK ones?

You seem to think I'm saying even if the majority want centered legends we should do justified ones, and that IS NOT my stance. If the majority want it that way, I will gladly pass on buying the set to allow the greater portion of the community to be happy. I have plenty of GMK sets to choose from. His argument seems to more be, screw the community at large, focus only on the die hard enthusiasts who can't be sated by anything less than a "perfect" replica, pricing be damned.

I also don't know why we are arguing this to begin with, the designer already said he wasn't keen on the centered legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: vewy_nice on Wed, 28 February 2018, 14:52:18
Hey did you guys see the IC for Symbiosis R2?

Can we agree on justified GMK style legends yet?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Wed, 28 February 2018, 14:59:34
Currently this set is needing 26-33(3900€-4950€) custom molds due to the sublegends. Changing all alphas to centered would require an additional 7(1050€) molds for currently unmodified characters, 19(1350€) if you include numrow, 33(4950€) more if you include numpad as well. While the argument could be made that the alphas could be centered without the mods or numpad, choosing to ignore the numrow would look objectively incorrect and mismatched.

My $.02 concerning the completely unnecessary argument about centered legends: anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow, so I don't see a point in catering to them with unconventional centered legends that aren't going to look correct to anyone that enjoys cherry profile for its merits, especially when it would cost more for everyone else joining the GB to make the change. Someone used the argument that if the centered legends were done, they'd be available for future sets. That's great and all except that the centered legends would only be available with the lisp sublegends, making them absolutely useless to anyone that wants a set without them.

Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.
You are incorrect, on quite a few points...

If this argument (though, personally, I'd choose the word "discussion") was unnecessary, we wouldn't be having it. Clearly there are interested parties on both sides.

Some people are interested in a visually accurate (legends, as much as possible) but tactilely superior (IMHO) experience. Making a comment that amounts to 'just use another profile' is particularly lame and ignores the fact that the legends have nothing to do with how the keys feel. Many people prefer cherry profile and I really dislike typing on SA in particular.

My statement about having them available for the community to use was specifically with regard to the numrow, which should have been clear:
"I'm neither for nor against the centered mods but I'd suggest that doing so would create value for the community. The centered mods and numbers could then be used by other sets. Perhaps another group buy could do centered alphas and then the community would have both centered and standard GMK molds to work with."

There are already caps from GMK with centered legends, not alphas obviously, but caps with centered legends none the less so saying "Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps." is a particularly weak argument.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: floristfran on Wed, 28 February 2018, 15:18:31
so very interested
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 15:34:27
Currently this set is needing 26-33(3900€-4950€) custom molds due to the sublegends. Changing all alphas to centered would require an additional 7(1050€) molds for currently unmodified characters, 19(1350€) if you include numrow, 33(4950€) more if you include numpad as well. While the argument could be made that the alphas could be centered without the mods or numpad, choosing to ignore the numrow would look objectively incorrect and mismatched.

My $.02 concerning the completely unnecessary argument about centered legends: anyone that cares enough about space cadet to want it historically accurate or whatever argument they're using isn't going to be happy with a cherry profile mimicry anyhow, so I don't see a point in catering to them with unconventional centered legends that aren't going to look correct to anyone that enjoys cherry profile for its merits, especially when it would cost more for everyone else joining the GB to make the change. Someone used the argument that if the centered legends were done, they'd be available for future sets. That's great and all except that the centered legends would only be available with the lisp sublegends, making them absolutely useless to anyone that wants a set without them.

Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps. The only people arguing this are the people that care more about copying something old and decrepit rather than adjusting and creating something new for people to enjoy.
You are incorrect, on quite a few points...

If this argument (though, personally, I'd choose the word "discussion") was unnecessary, we wouldn't be having it. Clearly there are interested parties on both sides.

Some people are interested in a visually accurate (legends, as much as possible) but tactilely superior (IMHO) experience. Making a comment that amounts to 'just use another profile' is particularly lame and ignores the fact that the legends have nothing to do with how the keys feel. Many people prefer cherry profile and I really dislike typing on SA in particular.

My statement about having them available for the community to use was specifically with regard to the numrow, which should have been clear:
"I'm neither for nor against the centered mods but I'd suggest that doing so would create value for the community. The centered mods and numbers could then be used by other sets. Perhaps another group buy could do centered alphas and then the community would have both centered and standard GMK molds to work with."

There are already caps from GMK with centered legends, not alphas obviously, but caps with centered legends none the less so saying "Centered legends have no place on cherry profile caps." is a particularly weak argument.

I very much agree with your first two points. Which GMK caps had centered legends?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Wed, 28 February 2018, 15:38:33
I very much agree with your first two points. Which GMK caps had centered legends?

Maybe novelties but can't think of any so wanting to be proven wrong :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 15:39:10
I very much agree with your first two points. Which GMK caps had centered legends?

Maybe novelties but can't think of any so wanting to be proven wrong :eek:

That was my only after-thought as well
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hineybush on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:04:04
I very much agree with your first two points. Which GMK caps had centered legends?

Maybe novelties but can't think of any so wanting to be proven wrong :eek:

That was my only after-thought as well

Yeah those are about it. Also worth mentioning that the Esc, Fn row, Nav keys, and other mods are left-center..
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:08:21
I very much agree with your first two points. Which GMK caps had centered legends?

Maybe novelties but can't think of any so wanting to be proven wrong :eek:

some keys on the bottom row, windows logos, menu, "control," and i think there's one other

arguably full caps lock

pause, prtsc, scroll lock (but it's left aligned)

but that's it, nothing super notable, nothing that requires readability
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:11:33
Which GMK caps had centered legends?

That Rebirth set that JChan ran through Keyclack is Cherry profile with center legends, as is the WhiteFox set that I:C runs their boards with. Just to name two.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:13:45
Which GMK caps had centered legends?

That Rebirth set that JChan ran through Keyclack is Cherry profile with center legends, as is the WhiteFox set that I:C runs their boards with. Just to name two.

Neither are GMK.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hineybush on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:14:33
Which GMK caps had centered legends?

That Rebirth set that JChan ran through Keyclack is Cherry profile with center legends, as is the WhiteFox set that I:C runs their boards with. Just to name two.

Neither are GMK.


Not GMK, but Cherry profile - both were dyesub iirc. MUCH different than doubleshot ABS. Also, imo, they look weird with the centered legends
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:18:54
Which GMK caps had centered legends?

That Rebirth set that JChan ran through Keyclack is Cherry profile with center legends, as is the WhiteFox set that I:C runs their boards with. Just to name two.


As one of the people unfortunate to have bought the 'rebirth set'. None of us that bought it even knows if it exists or not lol.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:25:39
I don't see the logic in this - because it's based on Space Cadet, it absolutely has to have centered legends? If it doesn't, it shouldn't be called Space Cadet?

I'd rephrase the "logic" as this: tribute sets should, whenever possible, seek to emulate the aesthetics of the original as much as technically and economically feasible, particularly when said aesthetic is especially distinctive and/or historically significant. It is merely a design approach which makes the most sense to me. In addition, if you aren't going to do a tribute set, then don't name it as if it was one, as it is misleading at best and disrespectful (to the memory of the original) at worst.

Quote
The centered legends work better on the spherical profiles of SA or DSA imo, since the text is finer and sometimes smaller.

I would bet that 99% of computer users--nearly all of whom type on cylindrical keycaps with corner legends--don't have this bias and would not identify anything "wrong" or "ugly" about cylindrical keycaps with centered legends. They have not acquired any sort of bias one way or the other, proving that there is no intrinsically "natural" legend style for any keycap shape. I'd argue that you feel that a certain type of legend only goes with a certain shape of keycap because repeated exposure to these differences has calcified your preferences into two distinct, mutually exclusive, camps. I'm trying to break down those artificial aesthetic barriers and get the "typical GMK buyer" to consider a different perspective. While I don't expect to change anyone's mind about what they like, it would be nice to know they at least acknowledge that something other than what they are used to is nevertheless valid.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:29:01
Not GMK, but Cherry profile - both were dyesub iirc. MUCH different than doubleshot ABS.

I would say that the differences between dyesub and double-shot, or the molecular composition of the plastic, is entirely immaterial to the aesthetic differences between centered vs. corner legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:31:50
Also as much as I really don't want to bring it up, (this thread is already fairly cancerous in my opinion =S) I don't really feel as if I got a definitive answer as to my earlier question of whether an iso layout with two backslash/pipe keys in could be avoided? Sorry I just think it's a bit of a no brainer, I'm assuming this is no and I'll just have to suck it up.

Surely a poll makes sense at this point so that everyone can feel they have given their opinion and had their say? Regardless of whether Oblotzsky actually wants to use the data or not? I feel like it would help to alleviate the fairly constant, and mostly meaningless at this point, bickering in this thread. People like different styles of legends and people like to state their opinion/preference as fact, next topic perhaps...  :confused:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hineybush on Wed, 28 February 2018, 16:43:05
Not GMK, but Cherry profile - both were dyesub iirc. MUCH different than doubleshot ABS.

I would say that the differences between dyesub and double-shot, or the molecular composition of the plastic, is entirely immaterial to the aesthetic differences between centered vs. corner legends.

The intial question was "Which GMK caps had centered legends?"
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Wed, 28 February 2018, 17:06:48
Not GMK, but Cherry profile - both were dyesub iirc. MUCH different than doubleshot ABS.

I would say that the differences between dyesub and double-shot, or the molecular composition of the plastic, is entirely immaterial to the aesthetic differences between centered vs. corner legends.

The intial question was "Which GMK caps had centered legends?"
Yah, I was primarily referring to novelties but there are some other GMK keys that are effectively centered due to the legend length... 1.5u Control for instance. I'm sure there are others.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 17:10:39
Not GMK, but Cherry profile - both were dyesub iirc. MUCH different than doubleshot ABS.

I would say that the differences between dyesub and double-shot, or the molecular composition of the plastic, is entirely immaterial to the aesthetic differences between centered vs. corner legends.

The intial question was "Which GMK caps had centered legends?"

I think puddsy gave the answer to that - thanks!

I very much agree with your first two points. Which GMK caps had centered legends?

Maybe novelties but can't think of any so wanting to be proven wrong :eek:

some keys on the bottom row, windows logos, menu, "control," and i think there's one other

arguably full caps lock

pause, prtsc, scroll lock (but it's left aligned)

but that's it, nothing super notable, nothing that requires readability

 although zslane's response was, in essence, what I was looking for. Despite not really liking either of those sets, I think Space Cadet would look much better.. The fact that neither of those sets were GMK, though, brings the question about the affordability of any new molds
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 28 February 2018, 17:16:47
Not GMK, but Cherry profile - both were dyesub iirc. MUCH different than doubleshot ABS.

I would say that the differences between dyesub and double-shot, or the molecular composition of the plastic, is entirely immaterial to the aesthetic differences between centered vs. corner legends.

The intial question was "Which GMK caps had centered legends?"

Ah, I interpreted that question as, "Which cylindrical caps had centered legends?" because the debate is over legend style vs. keycap shape, not legend style vs. keycap manufacturer. Consequently, I thought he used "GMK" as a synonym for "cylindrical".

If he really did mean to ask about GMK keycaps specifically, then I don't know of any that have centered legends. But that doesn't mean they can't have them. It just means nobody has designed a GMK set with centered legends...yet.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 28 February 2018, 17:23:47
i am not opposed to single legends on cylindrical caps a la round 2/3 dolch sets

i think it would look awkward with sublegends, and be too expensive to do it with GMK
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Wed, 28 February 2018, 17:56:04
This legend discussion has run its course.  Every possible argument and retort has been laid down, both sides have written their thesis, and now it's up to Oblotzky to decide and tell us he's going with the original mock up :D.  I'd implore you all to move on to other topics. 
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Wed, 28 February 2018, 18:18:59
This legend discussion has run its course.  Every possible argument and retort has been laid down, both sides have written their thesis, and now it's up to Oblotzky to decide and tell us he's going with the original mock up :D.  I'd implore you all to move on to other topics.

 -1
I encourage any further discussion  :D Oblotzky said he's a little busy, don't rush him!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: blighty on Wed, 28 February 2018, 20:31:52
[attach=1]

We could always try for GMK R4 SPH?  :p 
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Geek Maker on Wed, 28 February 2018, 21:36:51
INTERESTED IN
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Thu, 01 March 2018, 00:44:49
I don't see the logic in this - because it's based on Space Cadet, it absolutely has to have centered legends? If it doesn't, it shouldn't be called Space Cadet?

I'd rephrase the "logic" as this: tribute sets should, whenever possible, seek to emulate the aesthetics of the original as much as technically and economically feasible, particularly when said aesthetic is especially distinctive and/or historically significant. It is merely a design approach which makes the most sense to me. In addition, if you aren't going to do a tribute set, then don't name it as if it was one, as it is misleading at best and disrespectful (to the memory of the original) at worst.

Space Cadet is a name. Have you ever actually looked at any of the sets "tribute" sets are based on?

GMK Triumph Adler:
(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/MD-5860_20150323164918_c453801695fe9f5d.jpg)

Actual Triumph Adler:
(http://i.imgur.com/cDSCxPx.jpg)

GMK Royal Alpha:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8467/28407204060_02bb635ce7_b.jpg)

Actual Royal Alpha:
(http://i.imgur.com/yzkFh2l.jpg)

Heck, even 9009 isn't actually a true reproduction:

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80434.0;attach=158448;image)



You mention economic feasibility, but seem to ignore all the people telling you doing so likely IS NOT. How is calling it miss leading or disrespectful? By that logic you could also say it's misleading to sell a set as a GMK set when it's not consistent with the GMK product and you could say its disrespectful to the original designers of the cherry layout.

Looking at the renders, to ME it's extremely obvious what the basis of the set is, and I'd imagine the original designers are more likely to be flattered than offended "how dare you change our functional design for an old massive keyboard and adapt it to suit your normal design which no longer uses all our extra legends for anything functional, that is so offensive" Does this sound like something someone would say?

I totally get that you want centered legends, but you are ignoring all the reasons they dont make sense just because you really like them.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Thu, 01 March 2018, 02:44:26
I don't see the logic in this - because it's based on Space Cadet, it absolutely has to have centered legends? If it doesn't, it shouldn't be called Space Cadet?

I'd rephrase the "logic" as this: tribute sets should, whenever possible, seek to emulate the aesthetics of the original as much as technically and economically feasible, particularly when said aesthetic is especially distinctive and/or historically significant. It is merely a design approach which makes the most sense to me. In addition, if you aren't going to do a tribute set, then don't name it as if it was one, as it is misleading at best and disrespectful (to the memory of the original) at worst.

Space Cadet is a name. Have you ever actually looked at any of the sets "tribute" sets are based on?

GMK Triumph Adler:
Show Image
(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/MD-5860_20150323164918_c453801695fe9f5d.jpg)


Actual Triumph Adler:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/cDSCxPx.jpg)


GMK Royal Alpha:
Show Image
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8467/28407204060_02bb635ce7_b.jpg)


Actual Royal Alpha:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/yzkFh2l.jpg)


Heck, even 9009 isn't actually a true reproduction:

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80434.0;attach=158448;image)




You mention economic feasibility, but seem to ignore all the people telling you doing so likely IS NOT. How is calling it miss leading or disrespectful? By that logic you could also say it's misleading to sell a set as a GMK set when it's not consistent with the GMK product and you could say its disrespectful to the original designers of the cherry layout.

Looking at the renders, to ME it's extremely obvious what the basis of the set is, and I'd imagine the original designers are more likely to be flattered than offended "how dare you change our functional design for an old massive keyboard and adapt it to suit your normal design which no longer uses all our extra legends for anything functional, that is so offensive" Does this sound like something someone would say?

I totally get that you want centered legends, but you are ignoring all the reasons they dont make sense just because you really like them.
First of all you got the wrong triumph Adler picture, gmk triumph Adler is a remake of the TA Dario boards which looked roughly like that (but with darker alphas). And the gmk royal alpha keyset ran in the base kit with white mods, the green mods were an add on. This comparison went really wrong.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Thu, 01 March 2018, 03:45:38
I don't see the logic in this - because it's based on Space Cadet, it absolutely has to have centered legends? If it doesn't, it shouldn't be called Space Cadet?

I'd rephrase the "logic" as this: tribute sets should, whenever possible, seek to emulate the aesthetics of the original as much as technically and economically feasible, particularly when said aesthetic is especially distinctive and/or historically significant. It is merely a design approach which makes the most sense to me. In addition, if you aren't going to do a tribute set, then don't name it as if it was one, as it is misleading at best and disrespectful (to the memory of the original) at worst.

Space Cadet is a name. Have you ever actually looked at any of the sets "tribute" sets are based on?

GMK Triumph Adler:
Show Image
(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/MD-5860_20150323164918_c453801695fe9f5d.jpg)


Actual Triumph Adler:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/cDSCxPx.jpg)


GMK Royal Alpha:
Show Image
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8467/28407204060_02bb635ce7_b.jpg)


Actual Royal Alpha:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/yzkFh2l.jpg)


Heck, even 9009 isn't actually a true reproduction:

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80434.0;attach=158448;image)




You mention economic feasibility, but seem to ignore all the people telling you doing so likely IS NOT. How is calling it miss leading or disrespectful? By that logic you could also say it's misleading to sell a set as a GMK set when it's not consistent with the GMK product and you could say its disrespectful to the original designers of the cherry layout.

Looking at the renders, to ME it's extremely obvious what the basis of the set is, and I'd imagine the original designers are more likely to be flattered than offended "how dare you change our functional design for an old massive keyboard and adapt it to suit your normal design which no longer uses all our extra legends for anything functional, that is so offensive" Does this sound like something someone would say?

I totally get that you want centered legends, but you are ignoring all the reasons they dont make sense just because you really like them.
First of all you got the wrong triumph Adler picture, gmk triumph Adler is a remake of the TA Dario boards which looked roughly like that (but with darker alphas). And the gmk royal alpha keyset ran in the base kit with white mods, the green mods were an add on. This comparison went really wrong.

I'm sorry I'm not a classic board nerd, I defer to you on that. Regardless, none of them, exactly resemble the sets the copy, they are INSPIRED by them, not carbon copies. My only point was that he is acting like what he wants is the norm, and it is not.

Centered legends is a defining feature of SA keycaps or more generally spherical keycaps not Space Cadet. Space Cadet was not made with centered legends because it was space cadet, it was made with centered legends because the keycap profile it was made in used centered legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: blighty on Thu, 01 March 2018, 07:41:44
Centered legends is a defining feature of SA keycaps or more generally spherical keycaps not Space Cadet. Space Cadet was not made with centered legends because it was space cadet, it was made with centered legends because the keycap profile it was made in used centered legends.

Please stop stating your options as fact. Not all doubleshot SA caps have centered legends...

[attach=1]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 01 March 2018, 07:42:39
Centered legends is a defining feature of SA keycaps or more generally spherical keycaps not Space Cadet. Space Cadet was not made with centered legends because it was space cadet, it was made with centered legends because the keycap profile it was made in used centered legends.

Please stop stating your options as fact. Not all doubleshot SA caps have centered legends...

(Attachment Link)

also chronicler
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 08:14:40
Centered legends is a defining feature of SA keycaps or more generally spherical keycaps not Space Cadet. Space Cadet was not made with centered legends because it was space cadet, it was made with centered legends because the keycap profile it was made in used centered legends.

Please stop stating your options as fact. Not all doubleshot SA caps have centered legends...

(Attachment Link)

also chronicler

By mistake too :confused: :confused:

Is it common to have SA caps non-doubleshot?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 01 March 2018, 13:54:06
Regardless, none of them, exactly resemble the sets the copy, they are INSPIRED by them, not carbon copies.

Well, most of those "inspired by" sets aren't really tribute sets by my definition, by virtue of the fact that the designers could have made them much closer in appearance (at little or no extra cost) but chose not to, primarily because they weren't really interested in doing a tribute, but merely making keycaps that sorta, kinda reminded you of the original. I happen to feel that the Space Cadet keyboard deserves better than keysets that are merely "inspired by" it.

As for the cost of a full set of new legends (over and above the cost already incurred by the new alpha legends), do we have a formal quote from GMK for such a set? Or are you just guestimating?

Is it common to have SA caps non-doubleshot?

No, it is not common. Until fairly recently, double-shot ABS was the only option because Signature Plastics did not have dye-sub assembly boards for their SA keycaps. But beyond that, the constraints of dye-sublimated legends makes that process unattractive for many keyset designs, and especially so for sets that are tributes of classic vintage boards that themselves used double-shot legends (typically because they feature legends that are lighter in color than the keycap shells).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Canceaux on Thu, 01 March 2018, 14:33:49
Just my two cents, but with the announcement of SA Symbiosis R2, I don't understand why people are still pushing for centered legends on this set. If you're dead set on authenticity, SA profile is always going to be more faithful than GMK, since like OG Space Cadet and other Micro Switch caps, it's hi-pro spherical not mid-pro cylindrical. Why torture centred legends out of GMK at some ridiculous unspecified cost when SA will always be a closer copy at a cheaper price?

IMO this set is meant to be an interpretation of Space Cadet as Cherry might have made it, the best of both OG Cadet and Cherry aesthetics. Cherry profile's quirks (left alignment, corner legends, different typing feel) are the feature for this set, not a bug. Even though I'll probably pick up Symbiosis R2, I'll definitely buy GMK Space Cadet as well because I think it has something unique to add. But if this set is just going to slavishly copy the OG rather than rolling with GMK, now that Symbiosis R2 is out there'd be no reason for GMK Space Cadet to exist at all.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Thu, 01 March 2018, 14:52:43
this whole thread is hilarious and helps explain why we can't have nice things.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Thu, 01 March 2018, 14:54:19
I thought this was GMK, not SA.. :joy:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 01 March 2018, 15:24:15
Centered legends is a defining feature of SA keycaps or more generally spherical keycaps not Space Cadet. Space Cadet was not made with centered legends because it was space cadet, it was made with centered legends because the keycap profile it was made in used centered legends.

Please stop stating your options as fact. Not all doubleshot SA caps have centered legends...

(Attachment Link)

also chronicler

By mistake too :confused: :confused:

Is it common to have SA caps non-doubleshot?

i mean there have been dyesub SA sets before, ice cap comes to mind

but it's more common to see SA with the big centered legends rather than the top-left aligned ones
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 01 March 2018, 15:50:49
I don't understand why people are still pushing for centered legends on this set.

Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

I thought this was GMK, not SA.. :joy:

It is, but that is not really germain to the legend styles available to the designer.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 15:57:53

Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.


Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:17:33
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:20:27
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

knowing oblotzky, i'm about 95% sure this will be non-centered legends
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:24:08
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

knowing oblotzky, i'm about 95% sure this will be non-centered legends

Oh for sure, but being snarky about the logic not fitting with his opinion isn't fair :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:30:34
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

The sarcasm, it's too stronk!

Seriously tho, if this is actually an adaptation to cherry profile, why even consider anything but cherry legends? Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity. To change that is the same as saying that a core component of the profile you're trying to adapt to isn't as important as keeping the inspiration as original as possible, in which case you shouldn't be changing profiles to begin with. If changing to cherry is more important, you go with cherry legends, if keeping the set original is more important, you keep the set SA.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:33:05
Seriously tho, if this is actually an adaptation to cherry profile, why even consider anything but cherry legends? Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity. To change that is the same as saying that a core component of the profile you're trying to adapt to isn't as important as keeping the inspiration as original as possible, in which case you shouldn't be changing profiles to begin with. If changing to cherry is more important, you go with cherry legends, if keeping the set original is more important, you keep the set SA.

What if someone wants the original aesthetic but prefers Cherry profile? The closest compromise is to keep everything exactly the same, but change the profile. The next closest compromise is change profile & change alignment.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:46:01
Seriously tho, if this is actually an adaptation to cherry profile, why even consider anything but cherry legends? Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity. To change that is the same as saying that a core component of the profile you're trying to adapt to isn't as important as keeping the inspiration as original as possible, in which case you shouldn't be changing profiles to begin with. If changing to cherry is more important, you go with cherry legends, if keeping the set original is more important, you keep the set SA.

What if someone wants the original aesthetic but prefers Cherry profile? The closest compromise is to keep everything exactly the same, but change the profile. The next closest compromise is change profile & change alignment.

I think one of the most important things you can learn in this hobby is how much you can want something unique before it's too much to expect others to support. Weird layouts is particularly applicable to this as far as super niche layouts wanting support from sets that come out. For a set that's meant to be sold to hundreds or sometimes a thousand or more different people, it's unrealistic to expect the set creator to add stuff to the set that's gonna increase the cost for many and benefit only a small portion. This is one of those instances. There may be some people that value the original styling over cherry styling but still want cherry profile, but they are almost certainly a sever minority. Anyone on MD that is willing to spend the amount of money we do on plastic for their keyboards is most likely not going to want this set to match some old keyboard from wherever, they're going to expect an experience consistent with other GMK sets and cherry styling. Centered legends would be akin to making the base kit ISO-DE with no child kits to make it ansi again and also costing more money for some reason, but overall catering to a clear minority.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:50:01
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

The sarcasm, it's too stronk!

Seriously tho, if this is actually an adaptation to cherry profile, why even consider anything but cherry legends? Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity. To change that is the same as saying that a core component of the profile you're trying to adapt to isn't as important as keeping the inspiration as original as possible, in which case you shouldn't be changing profiles to begin with. If changing to cherry is more important, you go with cherry legends, if keeping the set original is more important, you keep the set SA.


That would be the way to go when you run your Lisp version.  :p


Seriously, in recent buys, the norm has been an eclectic mix of newness and classic trends that cannot be more far from proper etiquette in regards of respecting classyness of the classics, so who may say that some line should be over everything else.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:55:48
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

knowing oblotzky, i'm about 95% sure this will be non-centered legends

(https://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg)

I very much appreciate all the discussion going on regarding legends, but I have to put an end to the constant back and forth.

I will keep the legends as they are depicted in the renders right now. This set is supposed to be inspired by the Space Cadet, not be a replication of it. I'm taking colors and APL symbols from the original, and merging it with the design rules made by Cherry to bring it to their cylindrical profile. Meaning we remain having the primary alpha legend in the top left corner, while secondary legends go in the bottom right, not the other way around as it is done on the OG Cadet, and certainly not centered. And naturally, this means modifier text is aligned to the left side of caps.

There are currently two things on my todo list: I will be adding a 40% kit, and a Text+Icons kit that brings back the caps some of you so dearly miss in the current base kit (not a second base kit, but the 11 keys that have those legends as a addon pack)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:17:44
half this thread right now...

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/10UtqJNULHPfxe/giphy.gif)

The other half...

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Pch8FiF08bc1G/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:30:45
Thank ****. I would have saved a bit of money had the legends been centered, but I would have been sad to miss it. Looking forward to my all blue set with proper legends now  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: chuckdee on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:34:27
Seriously tho, if this is actually an adaptation to cherry profile, why even consider anything but cherry legends? Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity. To change that is the same as saying that a core component of the profile you're trying to adapt to isn't as important as keeping the inspiration as original as possible, in which case you shouldn't be changing profiles to begin with. If changing to cherry is more important, you go with cherry legends, if keeping the set original is more important, you keep the set SA.

What if someone wants the original aesthetic but prefers Cherry profile? The closest compromise is to keep everything exactly the same, but change the profile. The next closest compromise is change profile & change alignment.

I think one of the most important things you can learn in this hobby is how much you can want something unique before it's too much to expect others to support. Weird layouts is particularly applicable to this as far as super niche layouts wanting support from sets that come out. For a set that's meant to be sold to hundreds or sometimes a thousand or more different people, it's unrealistic to expect the set creator to add stuff to the set that's gonna increase the cost for many and benefit only a small portion. This is one of those instances. There may be some people that value the original styling over cherry styling but still want cherry profile, but they are almost certainly a sever minority. Anyone on MD that is willing to spend the amount of money we do on plastic for their keyboards is most likely not going to want this set to match some old keyboard from wherever, they're going to expect an experience consistent with other GMK sets and cherry styling. Centered legends would be akin to making the base kit ISO-DE with no child kits to make it ansi again and also costing more money for some reason, but overall catering to a clear minority.

This is the only logic that applies.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:39:56
(https://i.imgur.com/QgaWy4T.png)

we've been played boys
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:40:24
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

knowing oblotzky, i'm about 95% sure this will be non-centered legends

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg)


I very much appreciate all the discussion going on regarding legends, but I have to put an end to the constant back and forth.

I will keep the legends as they are depicted in the renders right now. This set is supposed to be inspired by the Space Cadet, not be a replication of it. I'm taking colors and APL symbols from the original, and merging it with the design rules made by Cherry to bring it to their cylindrical profile. Meaning we remain having the primary alpha legend in the top left corner, while secondary legends go in the bottom right, not the other way around as it is done on the OG Cadet, and certainly not centered. And naturally, this means modifier text is aligned to the left side of caps.

There are currently two things on my todo list: I will be adding a 40% kit, and a Text+Icons kit that brings back the caps some of you so dearly miss in the current base kit (not a second base kit, but the 11 keys that have those legends as a addon pack)

My man. Let’s do this!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sncbraxsc2 on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:47:30
Because if this is intended as a tribute set, then there is no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the original, regardless of the shape of the keycap. I know logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

Well if this is intended as a cherry profile set, then there's no logical reason to depart from the legend style of the profile, regardless of the inspiration source. I know the logic of this is difficult to accept, but surely it isn't difficult to understand.

There is logic for both sides though?

The argument is whether to use the style of the OG set or the profile that's being adapted.

knowing oblotzky, i'm about 95% sure this will be non-centered legends

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg)


I very much appreciate all the discussion going on regarding legends, but I have to put an end to the constant back and forth.

I will keep the legends as they are depicted in the renders right now. This set is supposed to be inspired by the Space Cadet, not be a replication of it. I'm taking colors and APL symbols from the original, and merging it with the design rules made by Cherry to bring it to their cylindrical profile. Meaning we remain having the primary alpha legend in the top left corner, while secondary legends go in the bottom right, not the other way around as it is done on the OG Cadet, and certainly not centered. And naturally, this means modifier text is aligned to the left side of caps.

There are currently two things on my todo list: I will be adding a 40% kit, and a Text+Icons kit that brings back the caps some of you so dearly miss in the current base kit (not a second base kit, but the 11 keys that have those legends as a addon pack)

Thank you for listening and deciding Oblotzky!! <3 I hope many join in on the kits you are adding!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:49:21
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/QgaWy4T.png)


we've been played boys
To be fair the legends were going to be the flashpoint of the set no matter what. As we've all learned people are REALLY passionate about how their lettering looks. Never mind the fact that 90 percent of us are touch typists and we're going to be paying attention to it maybe a few times a day.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 01 March 2018, 17:58:09
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/QgaWy4T.png)


we've been played boys
To be fair the legends were going to be the flashpoint of the set no matter what. As we've all learned people are REALLY passionate about how their lettering looks. Never mind the fact that 90 percent of us are touch typists and we're going to be paying attention to it maybe a few times a day.

i know but it's funny
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Thu, 01 March 2018, 19:52:41
I didn't really expect Oblotzky to change from corner legends. I liked the idea of floating the possibility of centered legends, but I didn't think it had much of a chance. That wasn't really the point of (my part of) the debate.

The point was not letting absurd notions pass unchallenged. Like this one: "Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity."

Keycap shape and legend style are completely orthogonal properties. Period. The sooner people understand this, the sooner they will realize that corner legends on cylindrical keycaps is simply what they like (based, I believe, entirely on it being what they are used to), not what is inherently "right" or "natural" or "best". In this particular case it is merely what is common. And that is not always the best quality to base a creative (design) decision upon.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kevadu on Thu, 01 March 2018, 21:06:44
I didn't even want to participate in this thread because there's so much cancer in it...but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

The point was not letting absurd notions pass unchallenged. Like this one: "Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity."

Keycap shape and legend style are completely orthogonal properties. Period. The sooner people understand this, the sooner they will realize that corner legends on cylindrical keycaps is simply what they like (based, I believe, entirely on it being what they are used to), not what is inherently "right" or "natural" or "best". In this particular case it is merely what is common. And that is not always the best quality to base a creative (design) decision upon.

This.  So much this.

Saying that they should stick to corner legends because it would cost too much to make new molds for centered legends is perfectly reasonable and I don't think anyone even disputed that point.  But saying that they should stick to corner legends because it somehow wouldn't be Cherry profile if the legends were moved is completely insane.

Learn to think outside the box a little people.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 01 March 2018, 21:13:39
I didn't even want to participate in this thread because there's so much cancer in it...but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

The point was not letting absurd notions pass unchallenged. Like this one: "Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity."

Keycap shape and legend style are completely orthogonal properties. Period. The sooner people understand this, the sooner they will realize that corner legends on cylindrical keycaps is simply what they like (based, I believe, entirely on it being what they are used to), not what is inherently "right" or "natural" or "best". In this particular case it is merely what is common. And that is not always the best quality to base a creative (design) decision upon.

This.  So much this.

Saying that they should stick to corner legends because it would cost too much to make new molds for centered legends is perfectly reasonable and I don't think anyone even disputed that point.  But saying that they should stick to corner legends because it somehow wouldn't be Cherry profile if the legends were moved is completely insane.

Learn to think outside the box a little people.

And I made a render, and it looked like arse. Cherry made the right call. There are plenty of things where I stopped and asked "why is this done like that?" and if I disagreed, I changed it. E.g. Prt Sc legend and SysReq/Break sideprints are aweful, first thing I threw out when I made a GMK set. And now the same for Pg Dn turned Page Down etc. But alpha legend alignment was not one of those things.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Thu, 01 March 2018, 21:19:19
I didn't even want to participate in this thread because there's so much cancer in it...but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

The point was not letting absurd notions pass unchallenged. Like this one: "Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity."

Keycap shape and legend style are completely orthogonal properties. Period. The sooner people understand this, the sooner they will realize that corner legends on cylindrical keycaps is simply what they like (based, I believe, entirely on it being what they are used to), not what is inherently "right" or "natural" or "best". In this particular case it is merely what is common. And that is not always the best quality to base a creative (design) decision upon.

This.  So much this.

Saying that they should stick to corner legends because it would cost too much to make new molds for centered legends is perfectly reasonable and I don't think anyone even disputed that point.  But saying that they should stick to corner legends because it somehow wouldn't be Cherry profile if the legends were moved is completely insane.

Learn to think outside the box a little people.

And I made a render, and it looked like arse. Cherry made the right call. There are plenty of things where I stopped and asked "why is this done like that?" and if I disagreed, I changed it. E.g. Prt Sc legend and SysReq/Break sideprints are aweful, first thing I threw out when I made a GMK set. And now the same for Pg Dn turned Page Down etc. But alpha legend alignment was not one of those things.

pretty much

we've looked, it's ****

let's move on
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Khers on Fri, 02 March 2018, 04:41:45
.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: vewy_nice on Fri, 02 March 2018, 08:53:22
We need a link in the OP something like

"TL;DR: Legends are in the corner. Skip to page 9 for further updates and discussion."
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: chuckdee on Fri, 02 March 2018, 09:47:00
We need a link in the OP something like

"TL;DR: Legends are in the corner. Skip to page 9 for further updates and discussion."

Or just quote the decision post by Oblotsky in the OP.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: elfick on Fri, 02 March 2018, 11:12:55
I didn't even want to participate in this thread because there's so much cancer in it...but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

The point was not letting absurd notions pass unchallenged. Like this one: "Cherry's legends are an integral part of its identity."

Keycap shape and legend style are completely orthogonal properties. Period. The sooner people understand this, the sooner they will realize that corner legends on cylindrical keycaps is simply what they like (based, I believe, entirely on it being what they are used to), not what is inherently "right" or "natural" or "best". In this particular case it is merely what is common. And that is not always the best quality to base a creative (design) decision upon.

This.  So much this.

Saying that they should stick to corner legends because it would cost too much to make new molds for centered legends is perfectly reasonable and I don't think anyone even disputed that point.  But saying that they should stick to corner legends because it somehow wouldn't be Cherry profile if the legends were moved is completely insane.

Learn to think outside the box a little people.

And I made a render, and it looked like arse. Cherry made the right call. There are plenty of things where I stopped and asked "why is this done like that?" and if I disagreed, I changed it. E.g. Prt Sc legend and SysReq/Break sideprints are aweful, first thing I threw out when I made a GMK set. And now the same for Pg Dn turned Page Down etc. But alpha legend alignment was not one of those things.
I'm not trying to continue the debate, but I think you should qualify this statement. Something like, "I made a render and it looked like arse for Space Cadet", with which I'd agree. But your next sentence, "Cherry made the right call." makes it seem like a blanket statement that centered legends don't work on cylindrical profiles and I don't think that's accurate. I think it didn't look good for Space Cadet because of the secondary legends which just made the cap look crowded and messy.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Fri, 02 March 2018, 11:30:32
Alrighty then it's settled. I'm almost sad the discussion is done though since now i'm back to full hype mode which means the wait for this sets going to take extra long.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Fri, 02 March 2018, 11:38:14

Also, no one has mentioned text only arrow keys  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 02 March 2018, 11:53:43

Also, no one has mentioned text only arrow keys  :rolleyes:

(https://i.imgur.com/FnDwJj3.gif)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:04:19
And I made a render, and it looked like arse.

Well, I don't agree with that assessment at all; I thought they looked pretty cool, actually. But I respect your decision to go with corner legends since this is your design/GB. And I still have every intention of buying the set. At the end of the day, I think this set is a neat idea regardless of where the legends are located. This is a good faith attempt to honor the original keyboard, and that's ultimately what I really care about here.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: blighty on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:09:01
Will the Nav Key legends be similar to these?

[attach=1]

(caps came off a Cherry G80-1000)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:11:55
Will the Nav Key legends be similar to these?

(Attachment Link)

(caps came off a Cherry G80-1000)

You can check the legends in the base kit in the first post.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: blighty on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:24:37
Will the Nav Key legends be similar to these?

(Attachment Link)

(caps came off a Cherry G80-1000)

You can check the legends in the base kit in the first post.

Ah, whoops.  Everything looks good from my house.  :) I'll have to keep a couple hundred earmarked for this buy when it drops.  Base kit, black text mods, spacebar kit, symbols kit, and possibly the text/icon kit if it becomes available (the int'l kit too if the numbers look low).  Hell, I'm almost tempted to build a preonic kit, but I know I'd never actually use the board...  LOL

Hopefully we'll see this go live in July (wishful thinking)  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:35:25
Just checking in again to whine about the iso options. Could something like this be possible...?

(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=94291.0;attach=190029;image)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:37:56
Just checking in again to whine about the iso options. Could something like this be possible...?

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=94291.0;attach=190029;image)


NORDE should cover it
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:44:39
Just checking in again to whine about the iso options. Could something like this be possible...?

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=94291.0;attach=190029;image)


NORDE should cover it


Oh yeh I know mate, I'm on about in the base set for people that don't want to spend money on a load of caps they arent going to use, whilst not having duplicates i.e. \| above right shift and to the right of left shift. Thanks anyway though
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Fri, 02 March 2018, 12:45:51

Also, no one has mentioned text only arrow keys  :rolleyes:

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/FnDwJj3.gif)


Was like the first thing I saw :D. I'm a big fan of the legend choices you've had for you're sets, small changes like 'Return' instead of 'Enter' and 'Print' as opposed to 'Prt Sc' are great :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 02 March 2018, 13:06:36
Just checking in again to whine about the iso options. Could something like this be possible...?

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=94291.0;attach=190029;image)


NORDE should cover it


Oh yeh I know mate, I'm on about in the base set for people that don't want to spend money on a load of caps they arent going to use, whilst not having duplicates i.e. \| above right shift and to the right of left shift. Thanks anyway though

split shift and the extra key near enter are accounted for, as well as iso enter
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Captainbuttmonkey on Fri, 02 March 2018, 13:15:23
Just checking in again to whine about the iso options. Could something like this be possible...?

Show Image
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=94291.0;attach=190029;image)


NORDE should cover it


Oh yeh I know mate, I'm on about in the base set for people that don't want to spend money on a load of caps they arent going to use, whilst not having duplicates i.e. \| above right shift and to the right of left shift. Thanks anyway though

split shift and the extra key near enter are accounted for, as well as iso enter

Duplicate legends though
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: saucybulgogi on Fri, 02 March 2018, 15:31:47
Hope this can run soon! Would love to put this on the blue Klippe I just received :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: garbo on Sun, 04 March 2018, 06:39:10
Bundling alphas into the ergopreonic kit may ultimately be the right call, but it does make it awkward for people who’d want to use the alternative blue ones. It becomes huge overkill just to fill in the bottom and sides of small ortho layouts.

I get that the grey alphas are integral to the set’s identity, but it would be interesting to see how the numbers would break down on the popularity between the two. I really like how it looks in monochromatic blue.

If they do stay, would there be any chance of getting planck coverage somehow else, say as as part of the potential 40% kit or in a pack of 1u blanks for misc. coverage?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 04 March 2018, 15:02:44
Bundling alphas into the ergopreonic kit may ultimately be the right call, but it does make it awkward for people who’d want to use the alternative blue ones. It becomes huge overkill just to fill in the bottom and sides of small ortho layouts.

I get that the grey alphas are integral to the set’s identity, but it would be interesting to see how the numbers would break down on the popularity between the two. I really like how it looks in monochromatic blue.

If they do stay, would there be any chance of getting planck coverage somehow else, say as as part of the potential 40% kit or in a pack of 1u blanks for misc. coverage?

i think he said he's working on a 40s kit somewhere
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 04 March 2018, 16:34:22
Bundling alphas into the ergopreonic kit may ultimately be the right call, but it does make it awkward for people who’d want to use the alternative blue ones. It becomes huge overkill just to fill in the bottom and sides of small ortho layouts.

I get that the grey alphas are integral to the set’s identity, but it would be interesting to see how the numbers would break down on the popularity between the two. I really like how it looks in monochromatic blue.

If they do stay, would there be any chance of getting planck coverage somehow else, say as as part of the potential 40% kit or in a pack of 1u blanks for misc. coverage?

If I did the Ergopreonic kit like it was done in other drops so far without the alphas, that would indeed make it nice for people that only want to combine it with blue alphas. But for those looking to get it with gray, they'd end up paying 50$+ more than with the current setup as they have to purchase the entire base kit. And those that want to have both are also looking at a steep total, having to buy all three kits. The current setup is the best solution IMO.

Regarding planck/preonic with legends, I'll be creating a 40% kit for Minivan/Mechmini/JD40/JD45 and whatever first. If it doesn't need many keys to also have preonic covered with legends I'll add that, but if not there's still the blanks version through the Ergopreonic kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: oldcat on Sun, 04 March 2018, 16:38:28
I will buy 2 sets. Let's make it happen
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: TechieWeirdo on Sun, 04 March 2018, 17:29:13
I'll buy two too... This is too tempting.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: garbo on Sun, 04 March 2018, 18:15:51
Quote
If I did the Ergopreonic kit like it was done in other drops so far without the alphas, that would indeed make it nice for people that only want to combine it with blue alphas. But for those looking to get it with gray, they'd end up paying 50$+ more than with the current setup as they have to purchase the entire base kit. And those that want to have both are also looking at a steep total, having to buy all three kits. The current setup is the best solution IMO.

Regarding planck/preonic with legends, I'll be creating a 40% kit for Minivan/Mechmini/JD40/JD45 and whatever first. If it doesn't need many keys to also have preonic covered with legends I'll add that, but if not there's still the blanks version through the Ergopreonic kit.

Thanks. I can see how it would benefit the majority of users.

I don't really understand why GMK's pricing still seems to favour large inclusive kits for the big (Massdrop) groupbuys. Surely they would end up hitting the same MOQs/order totals if it were SP style with individual alpha/modifier/extension options... Is it really so much more expensive to sort and distribute the different combinations?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Sun, 04 March 2018, 18:54:44
Quote
If I did the Ergopreonic kit like it was done in other drops so far without the alphas, that would indeed make it nice for people that only want to combine it with blue alphas. But for those looking to get it with gray, they'd end up paying 50$+ more than with the current setup as they have to purchase the entire base kit. And those that want to have both are also looking at a steep total, having to buy all three kits. The current setup is the best solution IMO.

Regarding planck/preonic with legends, I'll be creating a 40% kit for Minivan/Mechmini/JD40/JD45 and whatever first. If it doesn't need many keys to also have preonic covered with legends I'll add that, but if not there's still the blanks version through the Ergopreonic kit.

Thanks. I can see how it would benefit the majority of users.

I don't really understand why GMK's pricing still seems to favour large inclusive kits for the big (Massdrop) groupbuys. Surely they would end up hitting the same MOQs/order totals if it were SP style with individual alpha/modifier/extension options... Is it really so much more expensive to sort and distribute the different combinations?

According to my communications with GMK, it seems that kits are done in separate runs by themselves, meaning that the fee for separating kits should be mostly attributed to setup costs for each run, as well as per-kit packaging.

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ideus on Sun, 04 March 2018, 18:58:10
It would be out of reach for some of us that do not have shipping options from MD; but, the set is great. Good luck.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Sun, 04 March 2018, 23:52:55
 
Any more thought given to Greek front legends?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: crtexcnndrm99 on Mon, 05 March 2018, 02:54:26
In for base kit, black text, novelties, blue alphas.. $300 later rip


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 08 March 2018, 02:54:26
Damn... suddenly I want this real bad - for a 40% board.

Please let there be a non-MassDrop way to get this, otherwise, with the failure rate MD reaches Germany (for my personal experience), I may never get this set.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: iliketimex on Wed, 21 March 2018, 13:57:09
After looking at the design of this set for a while, and comparing it to the original design, I do not like that the sublegends are all over the map with their stroke width. It seems as though they should all the the same stroke width at least, and possibly less bold than the main alpha characters. The consistency of legends is one of the appealing attributes of the original design.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 21 March 2018, 14:11:24
After looking at the design of this set for a while, and comparing it to the original design, I do not like that the sublegends are all over the map with their stroke width. It seems as though they should all the the same stroke width at least, and possibly less bold than the main alpha characters. The consistency of legends is one of the appealing attributes of the original design.

I absolutely agree! Those are work in progress. Only the Symbols (hands and roman numerals) are currently considered as possible final versions, the rest will be worked out in the coming weeks no worries. I should have mentioned this.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: johuu on Tue, 03 April 2018, 14:41:38
 :thumb: Voted on MD. Excited for the GB.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Tue, 03 April 2018, 21:47:25
hype
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: FSund on Wed, 04 April 2018, 10:10:17
I realize I'm pretty late to the discussion -- but has the legend color for the alphas ever been discussed?
They look like a bright/neon yellow on the original Space Caded board, but the GMK set is using an off-white.

I like getting as close to the inspiration as possible, so something like GE1, or a custom blend... At least a render, or preferrably a sample of that combination would be nice.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romeo on Wed, 04 April 2018, 10:17:54
count me in
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Wed, 04 April 2018, 10:23:43
Voted last week, hope to see this coming soon!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Wed, 04 April 2018, 14:53:23
I realize I'm pretty late to the discussion -- but has the legend color for the alphas ever been discussed?
They look like a bright/neon yellow on the original Space Caded board, but the GMK set is using an off-white.

I like getting as close to the inspiration as possible, so something like GE1, or a custom blend... At least a render, or preferrably a sample of that combination would be nice.

I would prefer sticking to something like CP, since the base color will be the same as oblivion and that set turned out great color wise.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Wed, 04 April 2018, 14:57:08
Also, I think the yellow coloring might be due to discoloration, not necessarily the intended color of the legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Wed, 04 April 2018, 16:09:42
Exactly. I'm pretty sure Oblotzky is going for a "new-ish" look for the keycaps, not a "really old, and horribly yellowed" look.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 04 April 2018, 16:35:30
Exactly. I'm pretty sure Oblotzky is going for a "new-ish" look for the keycaps, not a "really old, and horribly yellowed" look.

++
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: reconsiderit on Wed, 04 April 2018, 19:07:38
Any word on how soon this will happen? There are still sets that MD has committed to run so I'm assuming sometime in the next 3 months? Does that sound about right?

Either way I gotta start saving up. Gunning for two sets of this. Looks fantastic.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 04 April 2018, 19:11:42
Any word on how soon this will happen? There are still sets that MD has committed to run so I'm assuming sometime in the next 3 months? Does that sound about right?

Either way I gotta start saving up. Gunning for two sets of this. Looks fantastic.

GMK Serika will run first, and then there will be at least a month pause. Not going to run two big GMK projects back to back. Q3 is a good estimate at the moment, will have something more concrete the closer we move to the second half of the year.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Wed, 04 April 2018, 19:12:45
Thanks for the update! Should give me time to get my finances in order.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: gnunin on Mon, 09 April 2018, 02:38:56
Fantastic looking set. Cant wait!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Out_of_diplomacy on Mon, 09 April 2018, 10:35:46
It does look great indeed
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dmgm on Tue, 10 April 2018, 21:17:00
I know this is very late, did you consider additional side printing? The Original space cadet keyboard had greek letters side printed on keys, and a modifier to access the side printed modifier. If not I wonder whether transfers could be added to the keys after manufacture, would there be space? I assume a transfer would last as it would not need to be touched.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Wed, 11 April 2018, 06:38:39
I know this is very late, did you consider additional side printing? The Original space cadet keyboard had greek letters side printed on keys, and a modifier to access the side printed modifier. If not I wonder whether transfers could be added to the keys after manufacture, would there be space? I assume a transfer would last as it would not need to be touched.

this has been covered numerous times throughout the thread.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romeo on Wed, 11 April 2018, 09:28:33
jumped on the hype train
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Sat, 05 May 2018, 08:31:05
Wow, that looks good. I didn't know Space Cadet would transfer well to Cherry profile.  :eek:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dc_in_sf on Sat, 05 May 2018, 19:19:42
There are a number of keyboards out that have left hand 2 x 5 vertical "function" key cluster. It would be nice if the there were some more ways to leverage the Symbols keys in that cluster.

Right now you could map one cluster of greys (either the I-IV or the hands) to R1/R2 and then a cluster of blues to R4/R4 (assuming the rows of the F column stack align with R1 R2 R3 R4 R4) leaving a gap at R3. The R3 Pageup/down keys cold fill that gap if they are not already in use (and there is a 1u R3 Code key as well), but the symbol set itself is a bit lacking in R3 options.

If the blue cluster could be aligned with R3/R4 as well as R4/R4 it would open up the bottom R4 for 1u mods, though that would probably not be practical. Possibly just 2 blank R3 keys available in the Symbols set would at least give a simple option to fill the stack in a way that wouldn't trigger too much OCD.

Purely selfish since I just signed up for a board that has this particular cluster :-)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 05 May 2018, 19:26:51
There are a number of keyboards out that have left hand 2 x 5 vertical "function" key cluster. It would be nice if the there were some more ways to leverage the Symbols keys in that cluster.

Right now you could map one cluster of greys (either the I-IV or the hands) to R1/R2 and then a cluster of blues to R4/R4 (assuming the rows of the F column stack align with R1 R2 R3 R4 R4) leaving a gap at R3. The R3 Pageup/down keys cold fill that gap if they are not already in use (and there is a 1u R3 Code key as well), but the symbol set itself is a bit lacking in R3 options.

If the blue cluster could be aligned with R3/R4 as well as R4/R4 it would open up the bottom R4 for 1u mods, though that would probably not be practical. Possibly just 2 blank R3 keys available in the Symbols set would at least give a simple option to fill the stack in a way that wouldn't trigger too much OCD.

Purely selfish since I just signed up for a board that has this particular cluster :-)

TC-V3?  ;)

I've thought about that myself how to cover it. I might look into the Symbols kit again to see if it can cover macro columns better.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dc_in_sf on Sat, 05 May 2018, 22:08:57

TC-V3?  ;)

I've thought about that myself how to cover it. I might look into the Symbols kit again to see if it can cover macro columns better.

Yep that's the one :-)

I do have nuclear data with the macro kit to cover it as it stands, but was trying to figure out a way to make space cadet work for it.

I am absolutely getting Space Cadet when you go live though, will look awesome on some board ;-)

I really love the left side Function stack, but so hard to properly populate with sculpted sets...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Hamel on Sun, 06 May 2018, 00:55:35
There are a number of keyboards out that have left hand 2 x 5 vertical "function" key cluster. It would be nice if the there were some more ways to leverage the Symbols keys in that cluster.

Right now you could map one cluster of greys (either the I-IV or the hands) to R1/R2 and then a cluster of blues to R4/R4 (assuming the rows of the F column stack align with R1 R2 R3 R4 R4) leaving a gap at R3. The R3 Pageup/down keys cold fill that gap if they are not already in use (and there is a 1u R3 Code key as well), but the symbol set itself is a bit lacking in R3 options.

If the blue cluster could be aligned with R3/R4 as well as R4/R4 it would open up the bottom R4 for 1u mods, though that would probably not be practical. Possibly just 2 blank R3 keys available in the Symbols set would at least give a simple option to fill the stack in a way that wouldn't trigger too much OCD.

Purely selfish since I just signed up for a board that has this particular cluster :-)

TC-V3?  ;)

I've thought about that myself how to cover it. I might look into the Symbols kit again to see if it can cover macro columns better.

I'd would love to see this happen;
TC-V3 is my end game board and it would look fantastic with macro keys with right profile rows!

Some additional icon/novelty keys in R3 would make this kit so much better, since now it only have "III" and "left icon."
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: shensmobile on Tue, 08 May 2018, 10:01:00
So so excited for this set.  I mentioned it to Oblotzky directly, but I think the Ergodox mods need legends.  Especially if they're Lisp programming terms instead of proper legends, I think it suits the tone of this set a lot better than blanks.  Blanks would be cheaper though :D
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: lecorsair on Tue, 08 May 2018, 10:09:46
There are a number of keyboards out that have left hand 2 x 5 vertical "function" key cluster. It would be nice if the there were some more ways to leverage the Symbols keys in that cluster.

Right now you could map one cluster of greys (either the I-IV or the hands) to R1/R2 and then a cluster of blues to R4/R4 (assuming the rows of the F column stack align with R1 R2 R3 R4 R4) leaving a gap at R3. The R3 Pageup/down keys cold fill that gap if they are not already in use (and there is a 1u R3 Code key as well), but the symbol set itself is a bit lacking in R3 options.

If the blue cluster could be aligned with R3/R4 as well as R4/R4 it would open up the bottom R4 for 1u mods, though that would probably not be practical. Possibly just 2 blank R3 keys available in the Symbols set would at least give a simple option to fill the stack in a way that wouldn't trigger too much OCD.

Purely selfish since I just signed up for a board that has this particular cluster :-)

TC-V3?  ;)

I've thought about that myself how to cover it. I might look into the Symbols kit again to see if it can cover macro columns better.

I'd would love to see this happen;
TC-V3 is my end game board and it would look fantastic with macro keys with right profile rows!

Some additional icon/novelty keys in R3 would make this kit so much better, since now it only have "III" and "left icon."

Another vote for left cluster compatibility =)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Tue, 08 May 2018, 10:15:15
How many boards have that feature? Only ones that come to mind are that board and the VE.A.
Not too familiar with the gajillion boards out now, so not sure whether it would be worth making more keys for just one board.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: hansichen on Tue, 08 May 2018, 10:19:00
Vea, some redscarf kit, kmac mini and the current Duck GB. And probably some more future GBs as there is at least some demand for such layouts
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Tue, 08 May 2018, 11:14:06
Vea, some redscarf kit, kmac mini and the current Duck GB. And probably some more future GBs as there is at least some demand for such layouts

Oh, that's neat. I wasn't aware.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Tue, 08 May 2018, 11:25:20
Like a Hyper7 kit, I don't expect the vertical function keys, but it'd be a great addition :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Tue, 08 May 2018, 12:09:38
So so excited for this set.  I mentioned it to Oblotzky directly, but I think the Ergodox mods need legends.  Especially if they're Lisp programming terms instead of proper legends, I think it suits the tone of this set a lot better than blanks.  Blanks would be cheaper though :D

There aren't really any special symbols in LISP programming. Lisp Machine Lisp/ZetaLisp only used a handful of non-alphanumeric symbols, and all of them--with the exception of the circled x--are standard ANSI punctuation characters. The Greek and other odd symbols were for typing mathematical texts, not programming.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dc_in_sf on Tue, 08 May 2018, 12:38:27
Vea, some redscarf kit, kmac mini and the current Duck GB. And probably some more future GBs as there is at least some demand for such layouts

Oh, that's neat. I wasn't aware.

Because it is the layout used by the Model F keyboard for the original IBM PC it does seem to re-occur as a design element.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Tue, 08 May 2018, 12:46:16
Vea, some redscarf kit, kmac mini and the current Duck GB. And probably some more future GBs as there is at least some demand for such layouts

Oh, that's neat. I wasn't aware.

Because it is the layout used by the Model F keyboard for the original IBM PC it does seem to re-occur as a design element.

Model F didn't start it. That layout has been used before.
I just wasn't aware there were custom keyboards nowadays that use it. It's useful for sure, but, as I mentioned, I wasn't aware of many. Then again, I haven't been as up-to-par this past year.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Jacob4341 on Tue, 08 May 2018, 20:38:04
Hello. Any way we could get a vim kit either added or ran in parallel with this group buy? The vim kit in SA Symbiosis R2's IC is great but I'd love to see it in this set: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/-IC-SA-Symbiosis-R2?irgwc=1&clickid=UmO2M%3AxLBxYbWZYy5ZyCxRgtUkjypF3AKQj3Rg0&utm_term=252901&utm_content=Skimbit%20Ltd.&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=impactradius
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: keebcat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 03:25:14
Hiragana now?

Nice bait-n-switch
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sevenseacat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 03:28:02
Did I totally miss something, how did this go from Space Cadet to Yet Another Japanese Set? :/

I posted it on the Serika discussion page and I'll say it again - I really wish designers would stop adding Japanese legends to everything just because they can...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: M on Fri, 11 May 2018, 03:42:46
Did I totally miss something, how did this go from Space Cadet to Yet Another Japanese Set? :/

I posted it on the Serika discussion page and I'll say it again - I really wish designers would stop adding Japanese legends to everything just because they can...

this can't be real right? I thought the whole point of "space cadet" was the cool sublegends
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: johuu on Fri, 11 May 2018, 03:49:17
Lost interest with japanese legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: turbosloth on Fri, 11 May 2018, 03:58:22
I'd assume the sudden change to japanese sublegends are just a bit of a troll.

It would be cool if we could get legends for the Ergopreonic kit like shensmobile suggested. Generally ortho kits seem to do well on buys, so fingers crossed we get some legend love.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Fri, 11 May 2018, 04:33:23
I rather like Hiragana but not on "Space Cadet". I'm assuming it's a joke since the Massdrop page still has the originals.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: shower_king on Fri, 11 May 2018, 04:43:16
Lost interest with japanese legends.

I am at the same with this bro.
My innterest for japanese sub-legend  sharply decreased.
However, I appreciate your this change.
GMK laser and GMK serika are two beautiful sets with  japanese sub-legend in double-shot. After chaning to japanese sublegend, this set use the same mould as the two sets do, which would reduce cost.
 If you remain previous sub-legend, GMK has to create new mould for sub-legend, which would increase cost.
 It is reasonable and understandable.  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: shower_king on Fri, 11 May 2018, 04:50:13
You have done so many renders in rather accurate colors , that is why I always keep eyes  on this set.
Anyway, respect your change and choice.
Is any chance that you would be kind enough to provide only-latin alpha for this set .ThaNK YOU
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Windeh on Fri, 11 May 2018, 04:54:16
Much trollin'...  :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: apejonk on Fri, 11 May 2018, 05:26:23
I was actually fooled for a minute.  :-[
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: jihadu on Fri, 11 May 2018, 05:41:00
Hangul space cadet when??
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 11 May 2018, 06:30:47
What are you guys on about?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 06:45:43
What are you guys on about?

:))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Petch on Fri, 11 May 2018, 08:13:31
A grey R2 II, R3 III and R4 IV would be nice to pair with the blue counterparts for boards like vea and duck TC-V3
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: keebcat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 08:19:08
Hiragana now?

Nice bait-n-switch

got me good
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: bthezebra on Fri, 11 May 2018, 09:04:59
I wonder when this is queue'd up for Massdrop, hopefully next.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 09:14:15
I won't join if there aren't Japanese legends.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Fri, 11 May 2018, 11:31:37
I won't join if there aren't Japanese legends.

Only joining if the ergo kit / norde kit combined w/ base kit so I can throw the keys away easier.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Fri, 11 May 2018, 12:44:18
I wonder when this is queue'd up for Massdrop, hopefully next.

Big O said there would be at least a month in between serika and space cadet, and sometime in q3 is a good estimate. So July earliest, but maybe Aug or even Sept.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: megaforce on Fri, 11 May 2018, 13:36:26
space cadet hiragana best space cadet
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Fri, 11 May 2018, 13:51:14
space cadet hiragana best space cadet

please dear god no.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 13:52:30
Hiragana > Space Cadet.

Please change the secondary symbols to Hiragana.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: megaforce on Fri, 11 May 2018, 13:55:31
space cadet hiragana best space cadet

please dear god no.
its okay to be wrong my friend
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 14:05:36
space cadet hiragana best space cadet

please dear god no.
its okay to be wrong my friend

Well, at least you know that about yourself!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Fri, 11 May 2018, 14:09:14
Hiragana main with the Space Cadet secondaries. Hiragana mono alternative kit instead of that blue thing you have now.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 14:10:53
Hiragana main with the Space Cadet secondaries. Hiragana mono alternative kit instead of that blue thing you have now.

This.

Maybe get rid of the blue completely. I think the all-gray would look better with Hiragana.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: pr0ximity on Fri, 11 May 2018, 14:34:20
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Acereconkeys on Fri, 11 May 2018, 16:47:12
Can we not complicate the kits/buy and marketing with all these crazy weird combinations/extra additions. This set was a modern interpretation of a classic I'd prefer it just stayed doing that.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 16:54:39
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:01:27
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:22:38
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)

Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026 (https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:30:34
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)


Jokes aside, that's actually dope. It's the superior Red Riot :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:38:15
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)

Okay, now I definitely know this is a joke. There's no way we'd get them as soon as 2026!

Can't fool me...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: llisandro on Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:57:20
In 4 Cosmonaut w Cyrillic sublegends
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 May 2018, 17:59:36
In 4 Cosmonaut w Cyrillic sublegends
Oh, my gosh... It's so amazingly fitting...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: pr0ximity on Fri, 11 May 2018, 18:22:42
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)


🔥🔥🔥
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Fri, 11 May 2018, 19:14:25
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)


i know this red is a joke but i would buy it instantly
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: glack23 on Fri, 11 May 2018, 19:45:39
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)

Round8!!!!! Will SP still be around?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Pwner on Sat, 12 May 2018, 03:03:01
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh

True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)


This should be a thing.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Remsky on Sat, 12 May 2018, 03:31:49
Red Space Cadet with Israeli legends when

Red Cadet sounds pretty damn cool tbh
Dont give him more ideas monkaS
True.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Agreed. Alright bois MD buy is canceled, I'll be working with 7bit to bring this to life as Round 8 using ALGOL colors. Colors will be grey, red, green, blue, violett on cream, plus cream on grey, red, green, blue, violett.

Kits will be added to his website soon http://7bit.info/algol/index.html#icons

See you in 2026
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/TBouSin.png)


This should be a thing.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Wilba on Sat, 12 May 2018, 04:48:30
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Sat, 12 May 2018, 22:20:12
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Show Image
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)


yes plz
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: jihadu on Mon, 14 May 2018, 09:50:44
Me wantz
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: MajorKoos on Tue, 15 May 2018, 20:01:42
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Show Image
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)


My word that's nice. 
Please make this happen.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Mon, 21 May 2018, 00:13:54
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Show Image
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)


Red Cadet got me like

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/AVBo5eqFXd3SU/giphy.gif) (https://media1.giphy.com/media/1L5YuA6wpKkNO/giphy.gif) (https://media0.giphy.com/media/Fkmgse8OMKn9C/giphy.gif)




Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: donutcat on Mon, 21 May 2018, 00:58:29
Lemme say, I was already planning on committing for the blue alphas, but monotone red would just suck even more money out of my wallet.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 21 May 2018, 09:47:19
Shouldn't it be "Kadet" for the red version?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 21 May 2018, 09:53:18
Shouldn't it be "Kadet" for the red version?

Zambumon proposed GMK Spain Cadet

BTW I finished up a lot of changes yesterday. I will be sending these kits to GMK today and bug Yanbo to calculate drop pricing so I know where we are at. I'm hesitant to post one of the new kits here in fears of it being too expensive and me having to backpaddel, so I'd rather make sure it's viable before people fall in love with it. Christoph is out of the office until June 4th tho so it will be a bit, hoping to have a big update in a few weeks with collabs and hopefully a launch window.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 21 May 2018, 10:07:03
Excited.

And I hope my card now works on Massdrop's site.  :-[
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Windeh on Mon, 21 May 2018, 10:32:27
Really looking forward to joining this as my first GMK set!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Pwner on Mon, 21 May 2018, 10:47:37
I'm hesitant to post one of the new kits here in fears of it being too expensive and me having to backpaddel, so I'd rather make sure it's viable before people fall in love with it.

Why stop now?  You've done it once already.  :blank:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 21 May 2018, 10:49:07
Really looking forward to joining this as my first GMK set!  :thumb:

And what a first set it will be!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: superhot on Mon, 21 May 2018, 14:00:38
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Show Image
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)


I'd tap that with the force of a thousand suns
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Remsky on Mon, 21 May 2018, 15:42:07
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Show Image
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)


I'd tap that with the force of a thousand suns
I'd splurge that with the power of a million supernovas.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dallman5 on Mon, 21 May 2018, 20:05:49
Shouldn't it be "Kadet" for the red version?

Cyrillic alphas + lisp sublegends plz
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dallman5 on Mon, 21 May 2018, 20:13:16
Shouldn't it be "Kadet" for the red version?

Cyrillic alphas + lisp sublegends plz
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: goodman247 on Sun, 27 May 2018, 22:38:04
Voted, hope this really happens!! Crossing my fingers for it!!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Mon, 28 May 2018, 10:37:26
What are “Lisp legends”?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 28 May 2018, 12:00:16
What are “Lisp legends”?
Moses, Mike Tyson, Drew Barrymore, Barbara Walters, et al.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 28 May 2018, 15:24:38
Hey! Your profile picture is my profile picture!  :p


(Attachment Link)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Mon, 28 May 2018, 19:19:47
Hey! Your profile picture is my profile picture!  :p


(Attachment Link)

No, mine is the same as wilbas.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: long_qt_pie on Tue, 29 May 2018, 23:09:32
What are “Lisp legends”?
Moses, Mike Tyson, Drew Barrymore, Barbara Walters, et al.

I laughed too hard at this
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 30 May 2018, 01:59:45
Hey! Your profile picture is my profile picture!  :p


(Attachment Link)

No, mine is the same as wilbas.

Not literally. Same subject.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 07 June 2018, 19:07:27
Hey guys. Just wanted to post a little update that things are going smoothly so far. I've contacted GMK with the revision of kits and pricing is being worked out. Once they are deemed viable I'll update them here.

In the meantime, please enjoy the updated APL legends (arrows, sublegends of I P and CVBNM), props to t0mb3ry for his work!

Please discuss them and let me know if you feel anything is wrong! I currently consider them soft-locked.

Keyboard is the Noxary 280 in Blue Gray by Xondat

(https://i.imgur.com/6ApVdyB.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ihalatch on Thu, 07 June 2018, 20:30:43
Looks fantastic. Can't wait to jin the GB.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: MrTq on Thu, 07 June 2018, 22:27:14
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/UIR8Ar0.png)


Show Image
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/fDzM81OYrNjJC/200.gif)


Yes, Red Cadet please :-* :-* :-* :-* that's my dream  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Thu, 07 June 2018, 23:43:04
This is just a nitpick, but the secondary legends on other keys look out of place now because the thickness doesn't match the updated APL legends. For example the '≥' looks giant compared to the ','
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Thu, 07 June 2018, 23:54:22
I actually thought they looked pretty big as well. Wonder if it's possible to decrease their size a wee bit, but probably not by this point.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: darthzero on Fri, 08 June 2018, 01:46:33
Are those mods yours then (like I got told about micons) or are they free to use by future gb runners? 
Edit: corrected autocorrect
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Fri, 08 June 2018, 08:08:18
Looks good, but I'm not sure I agree with text arrow keys.  :-X
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mudcakehoney on Fri, 08 June 2018, 08:40:16
Looks good, but I'm not sure I agree with text arrow keys.  :-X
agreed, doesn’t really fit with the style
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 08 June 2018, 08:58:36
Looks good, but I'm not sure I agree with text arrow keys.  :-X
agreed, doesn’t really fit with the style
It fits exactly with the style. The rest of the mods are text, but arrows are included as well.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 08 June 2018, 09:03:43
There's a solution for the arrows in the new kits. Please hold out till I update those. For now, I'd like to focus the discussion on the APL legends :) Thanks

This is just a nitpick, but the secondary legends on other keys look out of place now because the thickness doesn't match the updated APL legends. For example the '≥' looks giant compared to the ','

I see what you mean, however I don't see a way to get around that. Making ≥ and such thinner would require the same to be done with all other sublegends, and I don't see that looking good. I see the APL characters as a different group of legends, so personally I am not bothered as it distinguishes them from the other keys surrounding the alphabetic one.

Are those moods yours then (like I got told about microns) or are they free to use by future gb runners?

This is definitely a question I'd like to be able to answer. I'll find out what we can do
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Fri, 08 June 2018, 09:28:56
Well if you really want to talk about it fitting the theme, the original space cadet was also not text based.

(https://i.imgur.com/Irr1IX3.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 08 June 2018, 09:33:42
Well if you really want to talk about it fitting the theme, the original space cadet was also not text based.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Irr1IX3.jpg)


Are you referring to the hand signals? They are available via the Symbols kit. All blue mods in that picture are text, hence me doing them as text in the base kit as well.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Fri, 08 June 2018, 09:40:08
That's what I meant as well: the base kit is text-based, but the arrows (hands) are included in a child kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: kmba on Fri, 08 June 2018, 10:34:27
Can we expect this to kick off after canvas? Or further down the road.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Fri, 08 June 2018, 11:57:34
The "hand" keys were not arrow/navigation keys on the original Space Cadet keyboard. There is no reason to treat them as such on a modern keyboard on that basis. In fact, the original Space Cadet keyboard did not have a navcluster at all.

I agree that the "APL" legends are too big, after all they were small sub-legends on the original, not equal-size to the alpha legends. But its Oblotzky's design and he's probably mimicing the numerous other Cherry-style keycaps out there that have alternative secondary legends in the corners of the alpha keys (and those tend to be the same size as the main legends).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: LeoShi on Fri, 08 June 2018, 12:56:45
Red cadet looks so good
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: ELLIOTTCABLE on Sun, 10 June 2018, 17:07:46
I'm new around here, so my input may be insta-ditch, but some thoughts:

1. Vimcaps are super-popular, right? I understand that it's not quiiiite “true to the original board”, but what about moving the double-arrow on L to G, and then arranging the arrows on HJKL, vim-style? Saves quite a few of us an extra group-buy, later — and shouldn't bother the non-vimmers, 'cause it's not like the legends are meaningful to anyone else! ('cept the two APL users reading this thread … ;)

2. Personally? I'd instantly pay $80 for the Colevrak set, if there were only like ten other people who'd be interested in it. Hell — I'd drop a couple hundred, paying for a few of those moulds myself. It's really hard to find sculpted caps with Colevrak support; and Space Cadet is a lot of developer-keeb-nerds' #1 endgame. This leaves people like me having to choose between … A. a non-sculpted layout, … B. keycaps that disagree with the actual layout (fine for us touch-typers, but sucks for pairing / family who want to use your machine), … or C. using whichever of the two(?) colorways that *do* have sculpted Colemak caps floating around out there you hate less. ;)

Maybe I don't understand how MOQs work … but why not just offer it at a higher price, for us needy niche nerds, if you're worried too few people will be interested?  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 10 June 2018, 17:15:31
I'm new around here, so my input may be insta-ditch, but some thoughts:

1. Vimcaps are super-popular, right? I understand that it's not quiiiite “true to the original board”, but what about moving the double-arrow on L to G, and then arranging the arrows on HJKL, vim-style? Saves quite a few of us an extra group-buy, later — and shouldn't bother the non-vimmers, 'cause it's not like the legends are meaningful to anyone else! ('cept the two APL users reading this thread … ;)

2. Personally? I'd instantly pay $80 for the Colevrak set, if there were only like ten other people who'd be interested in it. Hell — I'd drop a couple hundred, paying for a few of those moulds myself. It's really hard to find sculpted caps with Colevrak support; and Space Cadet is a lot of developer-keeb-nerds' #1 endgame. This leaves people like me having to choose between … A. a non-sculpted layout, … B. keycaps that disagree with the actual layout (fine for us touch-typers, but sucks for pairing / family who want to use your machine), … or C. using whichever of the two(?) colorways that *do* have sculpted Colemak caps floating around out there you hate less. ;)

Maybe I don't understand how MOQs work … but why not just offer it at a higher price, for us needy niche nerds, if you're worried too few people will be interested?  :thumb:

1. As far as I can tell, VIM caps aren't THAT popular. Sure they sell here and there, but they are never a game changer. Staying true to the original APL legends is more important IMO, and there was not much support for this idea when it was suggested before already.

2. MOQ is 100 units for a Colevrak kit, even GMK Laser with 2100 base kits only sold 63 of them at 43$. Granted the Kobe alphas probably stole a handful of potential customers but still.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 11 June 2018, 02:28:51
I'm new around here, so my input may be insta-ditch, but some thoughts:

1. Vimcaps are super-popular, right? I understand that it's not quiiiite “true to the original board”, but what about moving the double-arrow on L to G, and then arranging the arrows on HJKL, vim-style? Saves quite a few of us an extra group-buy, later — and shouldn't bother the non-vimmers, 'cause it's not like the legends are meaningful to anyone else! ('cept the two APL users reading this thread … ;)

2. Personally? I'd instantly pay $80 for the Colevrak set, if there were only like ten other people who'd be interested in it. Hell — I'd drop a couple hundred, paying for a few of those moulds myself. It's really hard to find sculpted caps with Colevrak support; and Space Cadet is a lot of developer-keeb-nerds' #1 endgame. This leaves people like me having to choose between … A. a non-sculpted layout, … B. keycaps that disagree with the actual layout (fine for us touch-typers, but sucks for pairing / family who want to use your machine), … or C. using whichever of the two(?) colorways that *do* have sculpted Colemak caps floating around out there you hate less. ;)

Maybe I don't understand how MOQs work … but why not just offer it at a higher price, for us needy niche nerds, if you're worried too few people will be interested?  :thumb:

1. As far as I can tell, VIM caps aren't THAT popular. Sure they sell here and there, but they are never a game changer. Staying true to the original APL legends is more important IMO, and there was not much support for this idea when it was suggested before already.

2. MOQ is 100 units for a Colevrak kit, even GMK Laser with 2100 base kits only sold 63 of them at 43$. Granted the Kobe alphas probably stole a handful of potential customers but still.

I had already asked for vim caps, which is quite logical, since having a keyboard with arrows that are usable in some contexts is more brilliant than having a filological correct keyboard.
Anyway this keyset is full of symbols that 99% of people doesn't recognize so there's that.
A vim addon shouldn't be that expensive, if someone decides to buy more than one kit.

1) You could "fool" gmk into thinking that those keys are part of the main set, this way the GB leader will only pay 3 usd for the 5 or  6 keys needed (you need to replace duplicates).

2) Then the GB leader removes the separately packaged keys from each main set, and he can sell the keys as an addon.

3) Profit.

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 11 June 2018, 03:51:59
I'm new around here, so my input may be insta-ditch, but some thoughts:

1. Vimcaps are super-popular, right? I understand that it's not quiiiite “true to the original board”, but what about moving the double-arrow on L to G, and then arranging the arrows on HJKL, vim-style? Saves quite a few of us an extra group-buy, later — and shouldn't bother the non-vimmers, 'cause it's not like the legends are meaningful to anyone else! ('cept the two APL users reading this thread … ;)

2. Personally? I'd instantly pay $80 for the Colevrak set, if there were only like ten other people who'd be interested in it. Hell — I'd drop a couple hundred, paying for a few of those moulds myself. It's really hard to find sculpted caps with Colevrak support; and Space Cadet is a lot of developer-keeb-nerds' #1 endgame. This leaves people like me having to choose between … A. a non-sculpted layout, … B. keycaps that disagree with the actual layout (fine for us touch-typers, but sucks for pairing / family who want to use your machine), … or C. using whichever of the two(?) colorways that *do* have sculpted Colemak caps floating around out there you hate less. ;)

Maybe I don't understand how MOQs work … but why not just offer it at a higher price, for us needy niche nerds, if you're worried too few people will be interested?  :thumb:

1. As far as I can tell, VIM caps aren't THAT popular. Sure they sell here and there, but they are never a game changer. Staying true to the original APL legends is more important IMO, and there was not much support for this idea when it was suggested before already.

2. MOQ is 100 units for a Colevrak kit, even GMK Laser with 2100 base kits only sold 63 of them at 43$. Granted the Kobe alphas probably stole a handful of potential customers but still.

I had already asked for vim caps, which is quite logical, since having a keyboard with arrows that are usable in some contexts is more brilliant than having a filological correct keyboard.
Anyway this keyset is full of symbols that 99% of people doesn't recognize so there's that.
A vim addon shouldn't be that expensive, if someone decides to buy more than one kit.

1) You could "fool" gmk into thinking that those keys are part of the main set, this way the GB leader will only pay 3 usd for the 5 or  6 keys needed (you need to replace duplicates).

2) Then the GB leader removes the separately packaged keys from each main set, and he can sell the keys as an addon.

3) Profit.

I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: shower_king on Mon, 11 June 2018, 04:04:12
hi, which stage are we at now?
exact space cadet now or any chance change to red cadet?
The scheduled GB time is July ,first on MD as you have mentioned ?  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 11 June 2018, 04:13:25
hi, which stage are we at now?
exact space cadet now or any chance change to red cadet?
The scheduled GB time is July ,first on MD as you have mentioned ?  :thumb:

Only the gray&blue Space Cadet will be offered in the upcoming Massdrop sale, Red Cadet I will look into making happen once the first one has shipped. July was an estimate when I opened this IC, but we are looking good for a launch in Q3 of this year.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 11 June 2018, 04:22:45
I'm new around here, so my input may be insta-ditch, but some thoughts:

1. Vimcaps are super-popular, right? I understand that it's not quiiiite “true to the original board”, but what about moving the double-arrow on L to G, and then arranging the arrows on HJKL, vim-style? Saves quite a few of us an extra group-buy, later — and shouldn't bother the non-vimmers, 'cause it's not like the legends are meaningful to anyone else! ('cept the two APL users reading this thread … ;)

2. Personally? I'd instantly pay $80 for the Colevrak set, if there were only like ten other people who'd be interested in it. Hell — I'd drop a couple hundred, paying for a few of those moulds myself. It's really hard to find sculpted caps with Colevrak support; and Space Cadet is a lot of developer-keeb-nerds' #1 endgame. This leaves people like me having to choose between … A. a non-sculpted layout, … B. keycaps that disagree with the actual layout (fine for us touch-typers, but sucks for pairing / family who want to use your machine), … or C. using whichever of the two(?) colorways that *do* have sculpted Colemak caps floating around out there you hate less. ;)

Maybe I don't understand how MOQs work … but why not just offer it at a higher price, for us needy niche nerds, if you're worried too few people will be interested?  :thumb:

1. As far as I can tell, VIM caps aren't THAT popular. Sure they sell here and there, but they are never a game changer. Staying true to the original APL legends is more important IMO, and there was not much support for this idea when it was suggested before already.

2. MOQ is 100 units for a Colevrak kit, even GMK Laser with 2100 base kits only sold 63 of them at 43$. Granted the Kobe alphas probably stole a handful of potential customers but still.

I had already asked for vim caps, which is quite logical, since having a keyboard with arrows that are usable in some contexts is more brilliant than having a filological correct keyboard.
Anyway this keyset is full of symbols that 99% of people doesn't recognize so there's that.
A vim addon shouldn't be that expensive, if someone decides to buy more than one kit.

1) You could "fool" gmk into thinking that those keys are part of the main set, this way the GB leader will only pay 3 usd for the 5 or  6 keys needed (you need to replace duplicates).

2) Then the GB leader removes the separately packaged keys from each main set, and he can sell the keys as an addon.

3) Profit.

I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

LOL, thanks anyway  :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kevadu on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:06:48
I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

Whoa there, there are lots of vim users out there.  But actual vim users don't need special keycaps to know where the cursor keys are...

(That aside I still don't know why people call them vim keycaps, it should really be vi keycaps.  There is nothing vim-specific about it, and if anything vim users are more likely to be using standard arrow keys.  Old versions of vi didn't even support arrow keys and you had to hjkl.  Yet we call them vim keys for some reason?  It's weird...)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:10:55
I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

Whoa there, there are lots of vim users out there.  But actual vim users don't need special keycaps to know where the cursor keys are...

(That aside I still don't know why people call them vim keycaps, it should really be vi keycaps.  There is nothing vim-specific about it, and if anything vim users are more likely to be using standard arrow keys.  Old versions of vi didn't even support arrow keys and you had to hjkl.  Yet we call them vim keys for some reason?  It's weird...)

I could be wrong, but the guy who originally started producing the Vim caps calls them that: https://vimcaps.com/.
Ever since, they've been called Vim key/caps.

Also, why would Vim users use standard arrow keys? I thought Vim was just Vi improved--no more, no less.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:16:51
I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

Whoa there, there are lots of vim users out there.

I never said anything disputing this, what I said is that I believe [Amount of people wanting correct APL legends on Space Cadet] > [Amount of people wanting vi(m) legends on Space Cadet]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:21:47
I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

Whoa there, there are lots of vim users out there.  But actual vim users don't need special keycaps to know where the cursor keys are...

(That aside I still don't know why people call them vim keycaps, it should really be vi keycaps.  There is nothing vim-specific about it, and if anything vim users are more likely to be using standard arrow keys.  Old versions of vi didn't even support arrow keys and you had to hjkl.  Yet we call them vim keys for some reason?  It's weird...)

I don't need no printed arrows, it's simply that you with this set, you know that you have the wrong arrows printed in your keycaps. That's the autistically annoying pressing fact.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:26:43
VIM is cool I guess, but I definitely am not buying [what is supposed to be] a historical reproduction with VIM keys. Also shouldn't we call Red Cadet, Space Comrade?

(https://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/space_prop001-780x527.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:28:11
I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

Whoa there, there are lots of vim users out there.  But actual vim users don't need special keycaps to know where the cursor keys are...

(That aside I still don't know why people call them vim keycaps, it should really be vi keycaps.  There is nothing vim-specific about it, and if anything vim users are more likely to be using standard arrow keys.  Old versions of vi didn't even support arrow keys and you had to hjkl.  Yet we call them vim keys for some reason?  It's weird...)

I don't need no printed arrows, it's simply that you with this set, you know that you have the wrong arrows printed in your keycaps. That's the autistically annoying pressing fact.

It's only wrong if it is supposed to be VI(M)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:29:52
Although I'm a newish Vim user, I don't need printed keys to show me where the arrow binds are. If anything, I could use a whole keyset to show me where the other binds are! The more I use Vim, the more I realize how the keys are just for aesthetic purposes; all you need is to know where J is, and that's provided by the homing key.

VIM is cool I guess, but I definitely am not buying [what is supposed to be] a historical reproduction with VIM keys. Also shouldn't we call Red Cadet, Space Comrade?

Show Image
(https://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/space_prop001-780x527.jpg)


No, it should be Space Kadet!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Mon, 11 June 2018, 10:40:27
I vote for Space Vimmer
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kevadu on Mon, 11 June 2018, 11:01:18
I can't even be bothered to type how that doesn't even make sense.

And no, despite the fact that yes most people wouldn't care about the arrows, there are certainly more people that want correct APL legends than there are fans of VIM.

Whoa there, there are lots of vim users out there.  But actual vim users don't need special keycaps to know where the cursor keys are...

(That aside I still don't know why people call them vim keycaps, it should really be vi keycaps.  There is nothing vim-specific about it, and if anything vim users are more likely to be using standard arrow keys.  Old versions of vi didn't even support arrow keys and you had to hjkl.  Yet we call them vim keys for some reason?  It's weird...)

I could be wrong, but the guy who originally started producing the Vim caps calls them that: https://vimcaps.com/.
Ever since, they've been called Vim key/caps.

Also, why would Vim users use standard arrow keys? I thought Vim was just Vi improved--no more, no less.

You certainly can still use hjkl in vim, but it's not always optimal.  The big problem should be obvious: if you're in input mode hitting hjkl will type 'hjkl'.  Meaning that traditionally you have to constantly switch modes even to just move the cursor around and edit things.  With vim you have full arrow key support so you can move the cursor around without leaving input mode.  Again it's not like you can't use hjkl but I associate that more with vi than vim.  Arrow keys are handy...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Mon, 11 June 2018, 11:07:09
I've never paid much attention to vim because I prefer emacs/nano/ped, but I thought the whole point of vi/m was to reduce the number of keystrokes and movement of your hands?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Mon, 11 June 2018, 11:23:40
I've never paid much attention to vim because I prefer emacs/nano/ped, but I thought the whole point of vi/m was to reduce the number of keystrokes and movement of your hands?

Just download and use Spacemacs and use Evil mode (or use Evil mode in Emacs) and you'll find out!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: zslane on Mon, 11 June 2018, 11:56:42
If I'm not mistaken, Vimkey support is typically added as a separate kit (if it is added to a set at all), right? The same could be done for GMK Space Cadet, though I doubt it would hit MOQ. In any event, it makes zero sense to me to destroy the canonical Space Cadet legend arrangement in the base kit just to satisfy a handful of vi users.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Vigrith on Mon, 11 June 2018, 12:41:36
Adding VIM to this set is comical, to put it mildly. If it's a separate kit obviously I have nothing against its addition but in the base kit it's not happening.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Blaise170 on Wed, 20 June 2018, 09:46:26
I now have the perfect board to put this on, hopefully it is released soon!  :D
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sickbabies on Wed, 20 June 2018, 16:21:46
This will definitely be my first GMK set. Plan on getting the TMO50 (in IC phase now) and slapping these on that bad boy

Thank you Oblotzky
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Overchecken8 on Wed, 20 June 2018, 19:19:44
Been a while since a GMK set caught my eye. Hopefully this drops soonish so I can grab a set.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Sshimosawa on Fri, 22 June 2018, 11:12:06
I just made my GF and 2 others sign up for MD just to vote on this. Encouraging everyone to do the same. All the chatter does nothing if it can't get up-and-mounted. Lets do this!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: schoolbus on Sat, 23 June 2018, 09:48:17
I just made my GF and 2 others sign up for MD just to vote on this. Encouraging everyone to do the same. All the chatter does nothing if it can't get up-and-mounted. Lets do this!

Lol that doesn't change anything. This will get dropped regardless as Oblotzky has connections with Massdrop all that matters is where they decide it falls in their schedule.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: yap68 on Sat, 23 June 2018, 22:45:49
Connections... :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 24 June 2018, 06:19:13
Having a poll that is closing in on 2000 votes certainly helps the case though! It still takes a bit of convincing Yanbo to run a set because he has to make investors happy and such. It is only at this point that it doesn't really matter anymore since it's scheduled to drop  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: avid on Sun, 24 June 2018, 10:45:25
Is this the next set that's dropping after canvas or will there be another GMK set inbetween? Since serika, we've had pulse and canvas inbetween so should be a GMK set next.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 24 June 2018, 10:48:49
Is this the next set that's dropping after canvas or will there be another GMK set inbetween? Since serika, we've had pulse and canvas inbetween so should be a GMK set next.

SA Green Screen is launching in July, but according to the current schedule, Space Cadet will be the next in line for GMK sets.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dantambok on Sun, 24 June 2018, 12:30:11
Can’t wait! I know some people hate buys that run on MD but on the bright side, it’ll reach more people and drive the price down
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 24 June 2018, 13:13:02
Is this the next set that's dropping after canvas or will there be another GMK set inbetween? Since serika, we've had pulse and canvas inbetween so should be a GMK set next.

SA Green Screen is launching in July, but according to the current schedule, Space Cadet will be the next in line for GMK sets.

nice

i might have money for it then

red cadet pls pls pls
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dvorcol on Sun, 24 June 2018, 14:54:33
SA Green Screen is launching in July, but according to the current schedule, Space Cadet will be the next in line for GMK sets.

Interesting, since SA Green Screen's poll only has 1315 votes at the moment.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:14:14
SA Green Screen is launching in July, but according to the current schedule, Space Cadet will be the next in line for GMK sets.

Interesting, since SA Green Screen's poll only has 1315 votes at the moment.

MD's keyset queue doesn't solely rely on vote counts. For once, Green Screen was never really advertised outside of GeekHack, so having gotten to 1300 by just GH and the poll existing is impressive already, but primarily MD rotates through the profiles. You rarely see a back to back GMK drop for example. With GMK Serika having closed last month, it makes more sense to have XDA now and then some SA before returning to GMK.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 24 June 2018, 15:35:27
SA Green Screen is launching in July, but according to the current schedule, Space Cadet will be the next in line for GMK sets.

Interesting, since SA Green Screen's poll only has 1315 votes at the moment.

MD's keyset queue doesn't solely rely on vote counts. For once, Green Screen was never really advertised outside of GeekHack, so having gotten to 1300 by just GH and the poll existing is impressive already, but primarily MD rotates through the profiles. You rarely see a back to back GMK drop for example. With GMK Serika having closed last month, it makes more sense to have XDA now and then some SA before returning to GMK.

++

it's always more than numbers
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 30 June 2018, 05:31:09
(https://i.imgur.com/FZ2FwOO.jpg)

Fixed APL legend of X key, I mistakenly rotated it instead of mirroring.

Sent color samples to GMK today, we'll be starting the matching process ASAP to avoid delays as much as possible.

Colors are:
Blue - Matched to R6 (SP-BFP)
Grey - Matched to R6, even though R6 used SP-GD just like SA Oblivion, which I had matched for the GMK version, the resin batch used for R6 is slightly colder which I would like to keep to better pair with the blue mods
Black Legends - GMK-NN from standard colors
Cream Legends - Either just cutting open a R6 grabbag key to match (again, old SP-WV is different to current SP-WV, so ordering a colorchip from SP is possibly useless) or a blend of GMK-CP (standard color) and GMK-WS4 (one of the cream colors created for GMK Camping) since CP by itself is a nice off-white, but missing a touch of warmth.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sat, 30 June 2018, 10:54:31
good update
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: smittysteve on Sat, 30 June 2018, 11:22:13
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/7f9931f6a730a91f32079cd174ecdb79.jpg)

Enjoyed this in Belgium in honor of one fine GB starting soon!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: packman86 on Sat, 30 June 2018, 20:18:01
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/FZ2FwOO.jpg)


Fixed APL legend of X key, I mistakenly rotated it instead of mirroring.

Sent color samples to GMK today, we'll be starting the matching process ASAP to avoid delays as much as possible.

Colors are:
Blue - Matched to R6 (SP-BFP)
Grey - Matched to R6, even though R6 used SP-GD just like SA Oblivion, which I had matched for the GMK version, the resin batch used for R6 is slightly colder which I would like to keep to better pair with the blue mods
Black Legends - GMK-NN from standard colors
Cream Legends - Either just cutting open a R6 grabbag key to match (again, old SP-WV is different to current SP-WV, so ordering a colorchip from SP is possibly useless) or a blend of GMK-CP (standard color) and GMK-WS4 (one of the cream colors created for GMK Camping) since CP by itself is a nice off-white, but missing a touch of warmth.

Awesome! I can't wait to get in on this!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: nu_types on Sat, 30 June 2018, 23:06:36
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/FZ2FwOO.jpg)


Fixed APL legend of X key, I mistakenly rotated it instead of mirroring.

Sent color samples to GMK today, we'll be starting the matching process ASAP to avoid delays as much as possible.

Colors are:
Blue - Matched to R6 (SP-BFP)
Grey - Matched to R6, even though R6 used SP-GD just like SA Oblivion, which I had matched for the GMK version, the resin batch used for R6 is slightly colder which I would like to keep to better pair with the blue mods
Black Legends - GMK-NN from standard colors
Cream Legends - Either just cutting open a R6 grabbag key to match (again, old SP-WV is different to current SP-WV, so ordering a colorchip from SP is possibly useless) or a blend of GMK-CP (standard color) and GMK-WS4 (one of the cream colors created for GMK Camping) since CP by itself is a nice off-white, but missing a touch of warmth.

Might as well go the extra step and color match the white to the R6 white.... if you're willing to sacrifice a cap that is :p. I'm super excited to see this set come to fruition!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Sat, 30 June 2018, 23:29:15
But what about red cadet?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 01 July 2018, 09:23:44
But what about red cadet?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

im optimistic it'll run, he knows people want it
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Tue, 03 July 2018, 18:49:14
With the legends going a custom color, do you think the color would be close enough to CP to mix with oblivion mods?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Tue, 03 July 2018, 18:51:46
With the legends going a custom color, do you think the color would be close enough to CP to mix with oblivion mods?

TBD. Oblivion Mod legends are L9 btw, CP was only for the white alphas.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Kafka on Tue, 03 July 2018, 19:15:57
With the legends going a custom color, do you think the color would be close enough to CP to mix with oblivion mods?

TBD. Oblivion Mod legends are L9 btw, CP was only for the white alphas.

Gotcha, I was hoping on pairing Cadet alphas and Oblivion mono mods. Hope it won't look too off if another white is chosen.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Poesjuh on Fri, 06 July 2018, 17:04:05
Maybe asked already, but would it be possible to buy -just- the grey alpha’s? :P kinda would like to pair those with Honeywell mods


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Canceaux on Fri, 06 July 2018, 18:37:26
Solution: Buy the blue alphas in addition to the base and use them. Now you have spare grey alphas and a whole board’s worth of blue!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 07 July 2018, 03:38:55
Maybe asked already, but would it be possible to buy -just- the grey alpha’s? :P kinda would like to pair those with Honeywell mods


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They won't be I'm afraid.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dsaf on Sat, 07 July 2018, 07:03:04
Is profile for this / second round fixed at 1-1-2-3-4-4 or 0-1-2-3-4-5 might be a possibility?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 07 July 2018, 07:45:33
Is profile for this / second round fixed at 1-1-2-3-4-4 or 0-1-2-3-4-5 might be a possibility?

This set will definitely remain 112344. Row 5 is missing a few key sizes necessary to make it work with modern base kits. This is additional cost the GB must carry, and we already have the Cadet Alphas that require new plates at 150eur each, meaning we are looking at 10-20$ above the regular base kit price as it is. Plus a few more 1u keys would need to be added to the base kit for proper R0/R1 coverage (see proposed Carbon R2 base kit). In addition, R0 and R5 would **** with the Symbols kit as well, I would need to duplicate every R1 into R0 so that both big layouts and small layouts can enjoy those, and also add some more at the bottom to make it work nicely. The Symbols kit has 10 new legends (1500eur in tooling), so adding another 10+ keys to it will make the price uncomfortable as well.

Apart from cost, the time would also probably not be enough. Having the new R5 molds made takes much longer than making new legend plates. I estimate that GMK Carbon will launch 2-3 months after GMK Space Cadet, so t0m has a lot more time available to get things prepared.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sat, 07 July 2018, 08:42:31
I hope that people really enjoy R0/5, so that MOQ on hitting a fix kit for this would be possible ;)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 08 July 2018, 04:09:59
I hope that people really enjoy R0/5, so that MOQ on hitting a fix kit for this would be possible ;)

Agreed. This would be sublime, and the vintage nature of this set would make it a perfect candidate.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: The_Boom_Boy on Mon, 09 July 2018, 10:08:41
Excited to put this on my tokyo 60
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: bthezebra on Tue, 10 July 2018, 23:05:30
I hope that people really enjoy R0/5, so that MOQ on hitting a fix kit for this would be possible ;)
Add me to the "Definitely Want" list.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Tue, 10 July 2018, 23:22:15
R5 is love.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Giorgio on Wed, 11 July 2018, 01:55:53
R5 is love.

In a world where most of the users are flipping the spacebars, I don't understand what can you find in a profile that's simply and clearly trying to hurt you.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Keebmeupscotty on Wed, 11 July 2018, 02:03:20
R5 is love.

In a world where most of the users are flipping the spacebars, I don't understand what can you find in a profile that's simply and clearly trying to hurt you.

Huh? I think you are just reiterating what Romevi said in a lovingly, yet obnoxious way... but not sure

Edit: (Didn't mean to come off as salty as my re-reading of this seemed, just srsly a bit confused. <2)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Wetherbee on Wed, 11 July 2018, 02:05:32

R5 is fine, even preferrable, if you type ergonomic-style and not like chyrosan22.  ;)

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 11 July 2018, 02:36:16
Color matching has begun!

Kit updates should also roll out very soon with a formal announcement and stuffs
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mdlt97 on Wed, 11 July 2018, 03:08:15
i wonder when this set would even ship

cause it wont be till mid to end of 2019 realistically, and with people like cant wait to put this on my board like how long are you fine waiting lol
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 11 July 2018, 03:18:09
cause it wont be till mid to end of 2019 realistically

This is a GMK set, not SP. GMK lead times are about 16 weeks consistently for years now. I would expect this to ship within 5 months of the drop closing. Laser took so long because the alphas color was hard to finalize. But with Space Cadet, it has rather easy colors that I already sent in as actual plastic samples which makes matching much much easier. We might even see final samples while the drop is still live.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: mdlt97 on Thu, 12 July 2018, 00:37:00
so than probably early 2019

i might get a set for photos cause its a really nice looking set
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Thu, 12 July 2018, 05:04:03
But what about red cadet 🤞
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Remsky on Thu, 12 July 2018, 13:18:42
But what about red cadet 🤞
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 12 July 2018, 13:20:09
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: romevi on Thu, 12 July 2018, 13:50:48
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)


Shouldn't they be Ks?!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: roostrc0gburn on Thu, 12 July 2018, 13:59:12
are we doing like star trek uniform colors? yellow/gold when?

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: sickbabies on Thu, 12 July 2018, 14:32:05
Would "Escape" be too cramped on the Esc key?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 12 July 2018, 16:19:32
Would "Escape" be too cramped on the Esc key?

Goes over the edge of the cap, tried that myself already.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Jacob4341 on Thu, 12 July 2018, 16:45:40
So hyped for this set to drop!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Thu, 12 July 2018, 23:51:29
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)


Dang. I hadn’t even considered the grey alphas with the red. I’m gonna spend too much again.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: darthzero on Fri, 13 July 2018, 12:22:02
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)


Dang. I hadn’t even considered the grey alphas with the red. I’m gonna spend too much again.
Would be awesome to have the grey alphas as an extra kit on "crimson cadet", would save quiet a bit for those that will get space cadet.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Jedi on Fri, 13 July 2018, 20:02:35
Now we just missing violet and cream :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dimo on Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:02:14
Would it in any way be possible for:


Blue alphas + Blue mods being one base kit option.

Red alphas + Red mods being a second base kit option in the same drop.

And an extra add-on kit for GRAY alphas, for whoever wants it.


I know it flips the base kits, and although I have no idea how GMK production goes, I feel like it would be possible to have more than one base kit as one drop? Treating it as two separate.

Your reasoning for spreading out the dates might just be to keep the # of kits down since it might get crazy, but all we need is one mold to be made, right?

But ofc, the deal might already be set with Massdrop for the space cadet drop, and whatever happens, I'll wait out til 2019 (;


Good luck w everything
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: amnesia0287 on Sat, 14 July 2018, 07:03:55
Would it in any way be possible for:


Blue alphas + Blue mods being one base kit option.

Red alphas + Red mods being a second base kit option in the same drop.

And an extra add-on kit for GRAY alphas, for whoever wants it.


I know it flips the base kits, and although I have no idea how GMK production goes, I feel like it would be possible to have more than one base kit as one drop? Treating it as two separate.

Your reasoning for spreading out the dates might just be to keep the # of kits down since it might get crazy, but all we need is one mold to be made, right?

But ofc, the deal might already be set with Massdrop for the space cadet drop, and whatever happens, I'll wait out til 2019 (;


Good luck w everything

While I’d love this, you also gotta remember not everyone can swing all those caps in 1 month. I want the red keps, but I was always gonna buy all the blue / grey ones too.

I agree with the other dude too. Need my violet
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 14 July 2018, 07:12:12
I don't want to do any other colorway while running the standard one, since we are already at 9 kits (to be posted later today). As amnesia pointed out, not everyone can afford to shell out 300+$ to get multiple base color options.

Crimson Cadet will not have as many child kits, but instead be accompanied by a third colorway.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Allo on Sat, 14 July 2018, 09:19:35
Crimson Cadet will not have as many child kits, but instead be accompanied by a third colorway.
Verde Cadet? 💧🔥🍃
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: dimo on Sat, 14 July 2018, 09:28:19
I don't want to do any other colorway while running the standard one, since we are already at 9 kits (to be posted later today). As amnesia pointed out, not everyone can afford to shell out 300+$ to get multiple base color options.

Crimson Cadet will not have as many child kits, but instead be accompanied by a third colorway.

Thanks, I’ll be waiting then ((:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update in OP
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 14 July 2018, 16:57:08
Big update!

The group buy is scheduled to launch on Massdrop in August. The exact day is usually decided a week ahead of the drop, so I will update when I have a specific date. But it should be [the end date of SA Green Screen] + [a few days]. If you haven't already, you can vote for it on Massdrop to be notified when it goes live: https://www.massdrop.com/vote/GMK-Space-Cadet

I've taken in all of the feedback generated so far, and from that created the currently soft-locked revision of kits you can see below. Ever since the last update, which has been quite a while ago now, the following things have changed:

- t0mb3ry assisted me by creating vector work for the unique APL symbols, as well as further fine tuning the hand icons and roman numerals for the Symbols kit. All renders now feature these custom legends.
- I have further optimized the coverage of the base kit, it currently covers WK, WKL, Fullsize, 96key, 1800, CP, 60%, 65%, 75%, HHKB-style, the C70, 60% with arrows, and a few more I can't think of right now.
- I removed Cadet specific alpha keys from the base kit to cut down cost, and I believe not many people would have ended up making good use of them anyways. I now have standard US-ANSI alphas with two extra pipe keys for physical ISO support.
- I removed Gray keys from the Symbols kit. Instead I increased layout support, such as vertical macro/function rows on VE.A/TC-V3/RedScarf II.
- I removed Community keys from the Symbols kit. There seems to be a lack of interest in these nowadays anyways.
- I added blue spacebars to the Black Modifiers, and renamed the kit to True Cadet.
- I added a Cherry Icon kit for those that dislike the text-only modifiers I chose for the base kit. I did not go for Icon+Text (the 'standard' GMK legends used on Carbon/Laser/Nautilus etc) as I felt they didn't change too much about the look. Instead I went for the style of old Cherry keyboards such as the G80-1800 where the center part uses icons only, while top and bottom row remain text only. GMK Muted is a set that used this style for example, and I have demonstrated this in some of the renders.
- I added blue spacebars to the Blue Alphas kit.
- I removed blue spacebars from the Spacebars and -Keys kit, which is now a Spacekeys kit only.
-- The addition of blue spacebars to True Cadet and Blue Alphas now ensures nobody needing them forgets to purchase them, and it cuts the number of kits you need to buy from 3 down to 2, which saves about 15-20$ in a GMK buy in 'kit split taxes'.
- NorDeUK is untouched
- I am introducing the Assembly Kit, which is a kit independent from the Base Kit that fully covers the Ergodox keyboard.
- I am also introducing the 40bit Kit, which is also independent from the Base Kit and covers Planck, Preonic and a variety of 40% keyboards.
-- Both these kits have brand new ASM inspired modifier legends. I mocked up a blank modifier version for both, but with the busy Cadet alphas in the center it looked very imbalanced. These kits will not be cheap, probably more expensive than the base kit as they will hit way lower MOQ's (100 for both would be a big success already) while the base kit will most likely hit 500 units, and hopefully also 1000. So please keep in mind that you are probably going to be paying the price of a kit that is only produced a hundred times, but I think it is very much worth the extra cost for the modifier legends, and I hope many of you agree. I will then also be able to use these legends in GMK Oblivion V2 next year. And again, the base kit is NOT required, all you need is either the Assembly or the 40bit kit for your special layout, and I've seen people shell out 180-200$ in previous GMK runs where Ergodox modifiers had to be purchased in addition to the base set.
- Colevrak kit will not be offered. It would be 99$ due to even more custom legends, more keys than usual Colevrak kits, and have an MOQ of 100.

Lastly, the excellent outragedpudding has created a packaging design for the GMK trays. The Assembly and 40bit kits will probably also be coming in trays, but this is TBD.

Please enjoy the renders, and let me know if you have any questions or feedback! I already received pricing for all the kits apart from the Assembly and 40bit kits (I had those layouts covered in a bigger single kit, but the price was not viable). While I can not reveal pricing for the other kits at this point, I can however assure you that you will be very pleased with the 1000 unit price point of the Base Kit.

40% and Ergodox renders will follow once I have the pricing for those and am certain these will be offered.


Kit renders:

(https://i.imgur.com/ei3SeyQ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/emqZU1M.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KdZ4Kgh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nhnGIqm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ta1lgsR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3AqcbUL.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Z8BugsD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bVK1FSM.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wnS9UXI.jpg)


Packaging preview:

(https://i.imgur.com/TY0f1b4.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oukfvjs.jpg)


Keyboard renders:

(https://i.imgur.com/mfPH3xy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tN6S3iS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dwrPyAF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/O0Me0Os.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/aK6upCn.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tyK9Z6p.jpg)

PS: There will be a couple collaborations with other products for the sets, stay tuned.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update in OP
Post by: xondat on Sat, 14 July 2018, 16:59:18
Love it. Excited for this, it'll be my first MD buy for a damn while...
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update in OP
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 July 2018, 17:04:48
You may consider asking for R4C 2.75u and 2.25u spacebars. I am pretty sure that demand for SC may justify the new molds. Yet, the upcoming carbon kit in its second round will include them. That makes two large quantity batches that may support the new molds.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update in OP
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 14 July 2018, 17:07:25
You may consider asking for R4C 2.75u and 2.25u spacebars. I am pretty sure that demand for SC may justify the new molds. Yet, the upcoming carbon kit in its second round will include them. That makes two large quantity batches that may support the new molds.

I will check with CK if those will be available in time, but no guarantees.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update in OP
Post by: ideus on Sat, 14 July 2018, 17:08:12
You may consider asking for R4C 2.75u and 2.25u spacebars. I am pretty sure that demand for SC may justify the new molds. Yet, the upcoming carbon kit in its second round will include them. That makes two large quantity batches that may support the new molds.

I will check with CK if those will be available in time, but no guarantees.


Fair enough.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dantambok on Sat, 14 July 2018, 18:07:23
My wallet is ready to burn!!! Also, no red cadet.  >:D
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: Snappo on Sat, 14 July 2018, 20:04:47
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)



Gib me
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: saucybulgogi on Sat, 14 July 2018, 20:21:47
Fantastic update! Love the ergodox mods getting legends.  Looking forward to this buy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet
Post by: xondat on Sat, 14 July 2018, 20:22:38
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)


10/10 nut
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Overchecken8 on Sat, 14 July 2018, 21:03:59
Been waiting for this to drop for so long. So excited!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: nickaster1 on Sat, 14 July 2018, 21:08:01
But what about red cadet 🤞

Crimson Cadet. 2019. Now shut up  :p

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/U5SAdbP.jpg)


10/10 nut
10/10 nose bleed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ihalatch on Sat, 14 July 2018, 22:43:28
Where is the 1u R4 "code" keycap in the True Cadet kit?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: T0mb3ry on Sun, 15 July 2018, 01:39:48
Where is the 1u R4 "code" keycap in the True Cadet kit?
The code key you mentioned is in the base set in row3. The core idea of True Cadet is to give lower mods (last two rows which both are row 4) black legends like it was done in original space cadet. So the code key is not required in True Cadet.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Giorgio on Sun, 15 July 2018, 02:41:40
The 30% massdrop import tax, the wrong un-vim arrows make probably impossible for me to join this. But maybe a kit, I could buy that. What's the pricing.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: rioc on Sun, 15 July 2018, 03:46:55
The 30% massdrop import tax, the wrong un-vim arrows make probably impossible for me to join this. But maybe a kit, I could buy that. What's the pricing.
you basically want the symbiosis ghjkl keys then I guess?


by import tax, you mean the import tax your country charges you? (cause that's not up to MD is it..)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 05:02:03
Please include a grey F1-F4 and F9-F12 kit for your fans who want to use Oblivion modifiers. Otherwise good set, but this is killing me. :thumb:

Even better: put the blue F1-F4 and F9-F12 in the True Cadet kit and put the grey F1-F4 and F9-F12 in the base kit. That seems to go more in line with the purpose of True Cadet, which is to differentiate the vintage homage from the modern layout. This would allow buyers to get that real vintage look with the blue spacebars and blue top row while also making the base more standard and flexible for TKL / fullsize / 1800 / 96key fans of your sets while also keeping it affordable.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: OracleKev on Sun, 15 July 2018, 05:20:03
Please include a grey F1-F4 and F9-F12 kit for your fans who want to use Oblivion modifiers. Otherwise good set, but this is killing me. :thumb:

Even better: put the blue F1-F4 and F9-F12 in the True Cadet kit and put the grey F1-F4 and F9-F12 in the base kit. That seems to go more in line with the purpose of True Cadet, which is to differentiate the vintage homage from the modern layout. This would allow buyers to get that real vintage look with the blue spacebars and blue top row while also making the base more standard and flexible for TKL / fullsize / 1800 / 96key fans of your sets while also keeping it affordable.

+1

Overall, just awesome, and timing is not too late!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 05:36:14
I currently have no intentions of making the function row sandwich-style, sorry.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 05:42:24
I currently have no intentions of making the function row sandwich-style, sorry.

Oh, no need to apologize to me. I have no intention of buying a set with a top row that would crank my OCD to 11. I think it is going to be a success anyways, I'll just have to wait for the next round. Unless someone is aware of another set that uses the same color codes?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 05:47:40
I currently have no intentions of making the function row sandwich-style, sorry.

Oh, no need to apologize to me. I have no intention of buying a set with a top row that would crank my OCD to 11. I think it is going to be a success anyways, I'll just have to wait for the next round. Unless someone is aware of another set that uses the same color codes?

What layout do you use where you feel anything other than sandwich style looks wrong?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 05:52:39
What layout do you use where you feel anything other than sandwich style looks wrong?

I only use TKL layouts on all of my keyboards. A solid top row looks really, really weird and off-putting, especially for folks who are fans of Tsangan layout who want that OG vintage feel or WKL feel, which is ironic because this is a vintage homage.

Now, one solid color for the whole keyboard looks great, which is why I like the all-blue option in this set.. but as soon as you differentiate the mod color from the alpha color you need that critical differentiation in the F-row or else .. you are calling the F-row a modifier row which doesn't really make sense. Although you could argue by this logic the F-row should be entirely alpha colored but that just doesn't look right either when viewed through the lens of over 30 years of keyboard layout history. I think if we looked back at the purpose of the function row, we would see that a function key could be either a modifier OR an alpha which is why some F keys had different colors, so you could keep your modifiers and your alphas separate when you programmed the function.

I'm not a 96 key user but if I was I would think that this would be even more critical because the F-row and the top row of alphas line up in a grid. Maybe it actual looks nicer on a 96 key layout this way because of color differentiation, but on a TKL it is kinda gross, not because it is a bad idea but because it ab-normal. Once you see it you can't unsee it. It killed GMK Taro for me and I absolutely freakin loved those colors.

I can definately see where you drew the inspiration from but the modern TKL layout should always, as a general modern standard, color the F1-F4 and F9-F12 the same as the Alphas. I can see how that is frustrating as a designer. I would always want to be breaking the rules.

On a less philosophical level and a more practical one - without standards in the community we lose the ability to interchange modifiers and alphas between sets. GMK Oblivion mods with Space Cadet Alphas was my plan - pure sex to my eyes, but now my plan is foiled.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 06:05:41
What layout do you use where you feel anything other than sandwich style looks wrong?

I only use TKL layouts on all of my keyboards. A solid top row looks really, really weird and off-putting, especially for folks who are fans of Tsangan layout who want that OG vintage feel or WKL feel.

Now, one solid color for the whole keyboard looks great, which is why I like the all-blue option in this set.. but as soon as you differentiate the mod color from the alpha color you need that critical differentiation in the F-row or else .. you are calling the F-row a modifier row which doesn't really make sense. Although you could argue by this logic the F-row should be entirely alpha colored but that just doesn't look right either when viewed through the lens of over 30 years of keyboard layout history.

I'm not a 96 key user but if I was I would think that this would be even more critical because the F-row and the top row of alphas line up in a grid. Maybe it actual looks nicer on a 96 key layout this way because of color differentiation, but on a TKL it is kinda gross, not because it is a bad idea but because it ab-normal. Once you see it you can't unsee it. It killed GMK Taro for me and I absolutely freakin loved those colors.

For me it was the other way around, once I saw the beauty of a uni-colored function row, the mixed ones look gross to me. I can accept it on something like 9009 where the colors are much closer and also have the 'OG factor', but for example Honeywell and Space Cadet, I don't like a mixed one at all. Also in terms of design rules, I agree that it makes most sense to have keys of the same 'group' have the same color. But I disagree that function row belongs with alphas, because alpha keys produce characters, which the function keys do not.

96key and 75% is a bit tricky indeed. Personally I prefer an entirely alpha colored function row on those layouts as well, but I don't want to add 12 keys (a solid 10$ in base kit price) to support that.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 06:19:06
What layout do you use where you feel anything other than sandwich style looks wrong?

I only use TKL layouts on all of my keyboards. A solid top row looks really, really weird and off-putting, especially for folks who are fans of Tsangan layout who want that OG vintage feel or WKL feel.

Now, one solid color for the whole keyboard looks great, which is why I like the all-blue option in this set.. but as soon as you differentiate the mod color from the alpha color you need that critical differentiation in the F-row or else .. you are calling the F-row a modifier row which doesn't really make sense. Although you could argue by this logic the F-row should be entirely alpha colored but that just doesn't look right either when viewed through the lens of over 30 years of keyboard layout history.

I'm not a 96 key user but if I was I would think that this would be even more critical because the F-row and the top row of alphas line up in a grid. Maybe it actual looks nicer on a 96 key layout this way because of color differentiation, but on a TKL it is kinda gross, not because it is a bad idea but because it ab-normal. Once you see it you can't unsee it. It killed GMK Taro for me and I absolutely freakin loved those colors.

For me it was the other way around, once I saw the beauty of a uni-colored function row, the mixed ones look gross to me. I can accept it on something like 9009 where the colors are much closer and also have the 'OG factor', but for example Honeywell and Space Cadet, I don't like a mixed one at all. Also in terms of design rules, I agree that it makes most sense to have keys of the same 'group' have the same color. But I disagree that function row belongs with alphas, because alpha keys produce characters, which the function keys do not.

96key and 75% is a bit tricky indeed. Personally I prefer an entirely alpha colored function row on those layouts as well, but I don't want to add 12 keys (a solid 10$ in base kit price) to support that.

Unfortunately, history is really the problem here.

We owe differentiation of F-row colors to the designers of the IBM Enhanced Keyboard in 1986. Since then the 101-key standard and how you color the clusters, modifiers, and F-rows has been the same for millions if not billions of keyboards.

You are welcome to innovate as a designer and break the rules, but for people that spend most of their lives staring at keyboards, it just looks wrong. One man fighting against history. I wish you the best of luck. Maybe if IBM made a different decision in 1986 we would all have solid top rows. I dunno. Its hard - you want to innovate and push the envelope but at the same time the biggest issue with all of these GMK sets is that nobody seems to stick to a standard base set configuration.

I have no problem with innovation but I'd love if the community could standardize on optimized base sets that follow very simple color rules. The innovation should happen in the add-on kits. That's what you buy when you want to get creative and achieve the designer's intent.

The irony has not escaped me that the Space Cadet is the inspiration here, not the IBM Enhanced layout.. but I think the enhanced layout represents the modern 101 key design whereas the True Cadet is really going after the OG look of the Space Cadet.

If Symbolics was as successful as IBM maybe we would all have Space Cadet layouts instead of 101-key. :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 06:29:05
I guess I should also point out for the history nerds that the IBM PC/AT Model 339 actually had all-Alpha colored F-row keys. It wasn't until later that IBM started coloring F5-F8 the same as the modifiers! The popularity of the Model M is what really established the standard that we have all been using for 32 years.

Even in 1992 the Model M2 had an entirely alpha-colored top row. So Oblotsky should feel like there is precedent to break the rules, even in 2018. If I were Oblotsky I would cite the Cherry G80-0528 produced for NCR, Nixdorf, and Olympia. Although it wasn't the 101 key layout standard, the one I have here clearly has a modifier-colored F-row, all the way up to F30 (although NCR eventually adopted the IBM standard coloring scheme with the Cherry G80-1000 which was Cherry's first Model-M style layout keyboard and the one we all still use today).

The question becomes then, one of looking at where you want GMK Space Cadet to fall in history. Is it an homage to Space Cadet? Clearly yes - True Cadet is the purest form given the many, many constraints on you as a designer by economic and aesthetic realities.

But then we have this notion of a base set which isn't True Cadet... is that then supposed to represent a modern GMK base layout, perhaps inspired by Cherry's earliest 101-key keyboards? If so, I would argue that the 101-key standard of using alpha-colored F1-F4 + F9-F12 should be followed as it represents the standard rather than the exception. Break with tradition, by all means, but please do it with an add-on kit.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: OracleKev on Sun, 15 July 2018, 06:40:14
It would be nice to get alternating function colors in the Base kit.
With unicolor going into the True Cadet kit.

Either way, I'm in.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: yap68 on Sun, 15 July 2018, 07:19:42
Anyway, I much prefer mod unicolour f row
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ihalatch on Sun, 15 July 2018, 07:31:15
Where is the 1u R4 "code" keycap in the True Cadet kit?
The code key you mentioned is in the base set in row3. The core idea of True Cadet is to give lower mods (last two rows which both are row 4) black legends like it was done in original space cadet. So the code key is not required in True Cadet.

Where is the 1u R4 "code" keycap in the True Cadet kit?
The code key you mentioned is in the base set in row3. The core idea of True Cadet is to give lower mods (last two rows which both are row 4) black legends like it was done in original space cadet. So the code key is not required in True Cadet.

What I meant is that it's good to have R4 1u "FN" keycap to go with the R4 1.75u right "SHIFT" in the True Cadet kit. Anyway, it's awesome. I'm definitely in and spending a lot of money :)

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 07:35:37
Where is the 1u R4 "code" keycap in the True Cadet kit?
The code key you mentioned is in the base set in row3. The core idea of True Cadet is to give lower mods (last two rows which both are row 4) black legends like it was done in original space cadet. So the code key is not required in True Cadet.

Where is the 1u R4 "code" keycap in the True Cadet kit?
The code key you mentioned is in the base set in row3. The core idea of True Cadet is to give lower mods (last two rows which both are row 4) black legends like it was done in original space cadet. So the code key is not required in True Cadet.

What I meant is that it's good to have R4 1u "FN" keycap to go with the R4 1.75u right "SHIFT" in the True Cadet kit. Anyway, it's awesome. I'm definitely in and spending a lot of money :)

There are no FN keys in the base kit either. META and HYPER keys are intended to be used as FN for this set.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Sun, 15 July 2018, 11:45:15
I think it is specious to call upon IBM's history to justify any aesthetic decisions since the original Space Cadet keyboard--the only keyboard whose history has any real relevance here--did not have F-keys at all. It did, however, have a top row of keys with special functions, but they were all 2u in size and blue in color.

Of course this keycap set is free to play around with the original Space Cadet aesthetic in any way it wants, but resorting to "history" as an authority on what ought to guide that aesthetic is fraught with logical peril. Just because these keys are cylindrical does not mean that aesthetic provenance comes from the Model F/M. Alternating F-key blocks make no more aesthetic "sense" than all-blue F-keys, and I would even argue they make less sense since they form the top row, and the top row of the Space Cadet was, historically speaking, all blue.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: packman86 on Sun, 15 July 2018, 12:25:04
I asked for this before and I'm just going to make a last ditch effort before this thing goes to GB stage.

Any chance to get Alpha/Mods colored Frow? I really like the aesthetics of having F5-F8 in Mod color and the others in Alpha colors.

Regardless of what happens with that Frow, I am 100% in on the GB.

Good work, Oblotzky!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: thelaughingman on Sun, 15 July 2018, 12:29:07
Am I crazy in thinking the grey alphas would go great with Ivory Mods from Carbon R2?  :eek: :eek: :eek:

@Wetherbee: you could buy base kit + blue alphas to have the set in all blue and then sell the grey alphas too me you know  :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: avid on Sun, 15 July 2018, 13:47:26
Beautiful kits, can't wait for this!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 15:34:42
I think it is specious to call upon IBM's history to justify any aesthetic decisions since the original Space Cadet keyboard--the only keyboard whose history has any real relevance here--did not have F-keys at all. It did, however, have a top row of keys with special functions, but they were all 2u in size and blue in color.

I almost agree with you, but if that were the case Oblotzky would only release the True Cadet kit as the base and it would be an accurate throwback... But he goes through the effort of developing multiple kits to please different audiences with what I see as a fuax paus in set design, not for any rational reason but because my eyes are trained to look at keysets in a certain way. Humans naturally develope standards of beauty not because beauty is an objective truth but because we are attracted to the familiar standard of beauty that each of our cultures develops. In the keyboard culture then, where do we get our standard of beauty? Why have keyboards colored the F-rows this way for more than 30 years? Is it rational or historical? Or maybe it is an antiquated standard and Oblotsky is rebelling against it and calling for a revolution?

What you are saying is true about True Cadet, but in this case the base kit is clearly intended to be a more universal colorscheme in the theme of Space Cadet but with a modern Cherry GMK colorway scheme (what I call "modern standard"), in which case your argument doesn't apply - the modern standard was not established in writing like an IEEE standard, it was established by history when IBM standardized the look of the 101-key layout and everyone and their mother copied it. Layouts since then, including the G80-1000, were just copying that look. It established the standard to the point where it looks weird to not alternate the alpha and mod colors on the F row. Most GMK sets adhere to this (not saying that they must.)

I'm not saying that Oblotsky shouldn't do it. I'm asking for him to give his customers the CHOICE. Grant us the freedom to decide for ourselves personally how we want it to look. It is a small thing but it deters my ability to enjoy the set because of what.. 8 keys? I'd happily drop $50 on a kit to get the extra F keys.

Oblotzky himself acknowldges this when he put alpha-colored spacebars in the base kit and only put blue spacebars in the True Cadet kit, a compromise by splitting off the authentic throwback from the generally acknowledged look of a modern GMK set. If adhering to the modern standard applies to spacebars why not the F row?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 15:55:43
I'm not saying that Oblotsky shouldn't do it. I'm asking for him to give his customers the CHOICE. Grant us the freedom to decide for ourselves personally how we want it to look. It is a small thing but it deters my ability to enjoy the set because of what.. 8 keys? I'd happily drop $50 on a kit to get the extra F keys.

Well obviously this would be something worth dropping extra money on to you, but I have to weigh in the other 1k participants that will have to pay for an increase in cost. I've had the function row in blue since the beginning of the IC and as far as I can remember, you are the first person to say that this is a no-buy issue. I wish that number of people was zero, but one is pretty good considering the number of people interested.

Oblotzky himself acknowldges this when he put alpha-colored spacebars in the base kit and only put blue spacebars in the True Cadet kit. If adhering to the modern standard applies to spacebars why not the F row?

Also in terms of design rules, I agree that it makes most sense to have keys of the same 'group' have the same color. But I disagree that function row belongs with alphas, because alpha keys produce characters, which the function keys do not.
- Spacebar is an alpha key.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Sun, 15 July 2018, 15:57:38
Well, I consider this set somewhat confused about its purpose, precisely because it is trying to please so many masters. As a result, you have different camps laying equal claim to that purpose. Arguments that tie the colorway to the profile (Cherry) or layout (ANSI) are specious at best. When you take a colorway that was designed for a specialized board with an extremely non-standard layout (even for its time) and try to "adapt" it to the ANSI standard layout, you must inevitably make changes. But I don't subscribe to the notion that color choices must ape the IBM Model M just because the (ANSI) layout evolved from it. Color and layout are orthogonal properties, and there is no aesthetic or thematic reason to make alternating F-row blocks possible, only a political one (to please more people).

I personally don't care whether Oblotzky does any of that or not; I'm just saying that "history" is not a viable argument upon which to hang the justification for it. Simply admit that such thematic compromises exist purely to draw a bigger crowd to the show, not because "history" calls out for it.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 16:28:21
Well obviously this would be something worth dropping extra money on to you, but I have to weigh in the other 1k participants that will have to pay for an increase in cost.

There would be no extra cost to the 1k participants if the F-row was more standard in the base kit. If the F-row was in its own kit there would only be extra cost for the people that bought it if it met MOQ. The diehards who are paying for the True Cadet kit are already slapping down cash to get a more authentic experience, why not simply make True Cadet the only option? It would be cheaper and more authentic.

Spacebar is an alpha key, just like F5-F8 are reserved for modifiers? What makes you think spacebar is an alpha key? Convention? History? Standards? It is the same argument I'm making.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 16:34:55
There would be no extra cost to the 1k participants if the F-row was more standard in the base kit. If the F-row was in its own kit there would only be extra cost for the people that bought it if it met MOQ.

Of course there would be no increase in cost of the base kit if I made it the default option, but I am not going to do that because one person threatens to not buy the set if I don't. I have been fooled by a vocal minority often enough.

What makes you think spacebar is an alpha key? Convention? History? Standards? It is the same argument I'm making.

The fact that when I hit the key, an empty character is created.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 16:37:34
The fact that when I hit the button, an ASCII character is created.

That has nothing to do with the keyboard layout or colors. The keyboard only produces scan-codes. In most cases, ASCII characters are not created anymore. Windows typically creates Unicode, UTF-8, or UTF-16 characters depending on the application. How scan codes map to characters is dependent on the localization and operating system. Philosophically, a spacebar is nothing like an alphanumeric character. In fact, it could be called the opposite - a lack of alphanumeric character, or an empty space. The shift modifier effects alphanumeric keys but it does nothing when I type 'shift-space.'
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 16:39:40
The fact that when I hit the button, an ASCII character is created.

That has nothing to do with the keyboard layout or colors. The keyboard only produces scan-codes. In most cases, ASCII characters are not created anymore. Windows typically creates Unicode, UTF-8, or UTF-16 characters depending on the application. How scan codes map to characters is dependent on the localization and operating system. Philosophically, a spacebar is nothing like an alphanumeric character. In fact, it could be called the opposite - a lack of alphanumeric character, or an empty space. The shift modifier effects alphanumeric keys but it does nothing when I type 'shift-space.'

Sorry I picked the wrong description, since that would also have made the TAB key an alpha key by my definition. I edited my question accordingly, but not in time.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 16:44:05
So why is Tab colored like a modifier when it doesn't modify?

Why is space colored like an alphanumeric key when it isn't?

Why is F5-F8 colored like a modifier but we don't use them as modifiers in the modern sense?

These are all questions harking back to decisions made in 1986 that still impact us to this day. We value the modern standard for color layouts to the point where we argue about it on internet forums. It isn't something to be tossed aside lightly. People get really passionate about their spacebar colors just the same as some get passionate about their F-row colors, except those pesky 60% users who can ignore the problem altogether by just completely defying convention - their standards revolve around the M0110 and the HHKB, not the IBM Enhanced Keyboard. :)

And then there are people in the middle with WKL HHKB layouts and 65% and 75% and all manner of innovative layouts. For them I suppose it matters less, but for the traditional fullsize/1800/TKL/96key, I think we should defer more to the general expectation of how we cluster the colorways, unless we are purposely going for a design asthetic that defies that convention, i.e. Symbolics, in which case True Cadet is the purest expression of that form possible given Cherry tooling and budget realities and current layouts (except for that one dude who built his own Space Cadet keyboard, god bless him).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 16:58:13
Well, I consider this set somewhat confused about its purpose, precisely because it is trying to please so many masters.

This is notable, although I would say that Oblotsky's mission is better summarized as "attempting to adapt the Symbolics Space Cadet colorway to the 104-key Cherry profile ANSI layout standard while accommodating as many other layouts as possible to satisfy the community while minimizing the price." That seems to be to be the mission. In other words, how do we adapt a space cadet colorway and, to a lesser-extent, layout ("Rub Out!") to work with a look developed for an IBM layout from 1986-1995 (with later adaptations to the modern 104-key ANSI standard)?

The problem for Oblotsky is the question of "how far?" How far do you adapt the theme? Do you make the spacebar blue? Do you defy convention and make the F-row all one color? Why do one but not the other? Every decision he makes will delight and disappoint different people. He can't make everyone happy, but if there is a chance to provide an optional kit that could make more people happy but not at the expense of the rest of the groupbuy, then why not? What is the harm? Customer gets what they want, and the designer, distributor, and manufacturer pocket the profits. Good deal. If it doesn't meet MOQ, then oh-well. That customer just doesn't demand enough market presence.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 17:08:09
He can't make everyone happy, but if there is a chance to provide an optional kit that could make more people happy but not at the expense of the rest of the groupbuy, then why not? What is the harm?

We have 9 kits already, which is quite a bit for a GMK buy. If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25, but I feel very uncomfortable doing this on a GMK buy where MOQ's start at 100.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 17:10:12
We have 9 kits already, which is quite a bit for a GMK buy. If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25, but I feel very uncomfortable doing this on a GMK buy where MOQ's start at 100.

That is a very fair point. My question then is how much would the price of True Cadet increase if 8 blue keys were added? (or even Blue Alphas which might even be a better place for them).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 17:16:19
We have 9 kits already, which is quite a bit for a GMK buy. If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25, but I feel very uncomfortable doing this on a GMK buy where MOQ's start at 100.

That is a very fair point. My question then is how much would the price of True Cadet increase if 8 blue keys were added? (or even Blue Alphas which might even be a better place for them).

Both kits already cost enough as they are.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 17:21:00

What are the GMK color codes used for this set? Are they all custom pantones?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 15 July 2018, 17:24:09

What are the GMK color codes used for this set? Are they all custom pantones?

Color matched to samples from Signature Plastics, BFP and GD. Black is NN from GMK's own library and legend white is TBD. I'm trying to achieve a halfway point between GMK's CP and SP's WCK.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Sun, 15 July 2018, 17:27:28
Both kits already cost enough as they are.

I admire a designer that stands their ground despite the mental gymnastics required.

That said, please include 6u center-stem and Space Cadet legends on GMK Oblivion Round 2.

In before someone complains that it was never asked in the interest check.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: TerryMathews on Sun, 15 July 2018, 18:36:04
halfway point between GMK's CP and SP's WCK.

GMK 3K?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 16 July 2018, 03:35:43
halfway point between GMK's CP and SP's WCK.

GMK 3K?

Too cold, WCK is creamy, which I want to capture a part of.

Added 6.25u Spacebar to 40bit Kit for keyboards such as Pearl, JD40 and others.

(https://i.imgur.com/YI53maF.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: turbosloth on Mon, 16 July 2018, 06:22:10
God these updates look fantastic, thanks for adding legends to the 40bit kit. It really does balance out the look a lot better. Absolutely getting a base and the 40bit
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: yap68 on Mon, 16 July 2018, 06:41:06
Good job on the vertical macro rows. Hope that actual colourway will be a bit less satuarated than renders
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 July 2018, 12:22:51
FWIW I also consider the spacebar an alpha key because it adds a single character to whatever text is being typed, and when you delete it with the Delete or Backspace key, a single character is removed from the text. Tab is more of a cursor control character, causing the cursor to position itself at pre-determined positions which are typically configurable per application/document, much in the same way that Return is purely a cursor positioning character, moving the cursor to a position driven by text layout rules. A space character behaves more like all the other alpha characters than it does any of the cursor positioning "control codes" that manipulate whitespace.

However, it is not uncommon for keys to be colored according to aesthetic rules unattached to key function or category. Look at all the keyboards that people have where they use "modifier colored" ~` and |\ keys so as to surround the central alpha block in the other color. The original Space Cadet keyboard does this on a grander scale, which is primarily why the spacebar is colored blue rather than gray.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dsaf on Mon, 16 July 2018, 12:42:42
...If this was an SA buy, I'd be offering a F1-F12 in gray kit as it would only be 9.99$ with MOQ 25...

SA Space Cadet confirmed!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: euphxenos on Mon, 16 July 2018, 18:06:05
Tab is more of a cursor control character, causing the cursor to position itself at pre-determined positions which are typically configurable per application/document, much in the same way that Return is purely a cursor positioning character, moving the cursor to a position driven by text layout rules.

That may be what happens when some software you use sees you press the tab key, but there *is* such a thing as a tab character.  That's character number 9 in your ASCII character set, the horizontal tab, often represented as '\t'.  Indenting with tabs vs spaces, and how much width a tab should represent when present are long-running points of contention in computer programming.  There are many people out there who expect hitting the tab key to insert a tab character.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 July 2018, 18:15:43
Sure, but you can't actually see ASCII code 0x9. It is what is known as a non-printing (control) character. It is "visible" only in the sense that it has a visible effect on cursor positioning. Its presence in a document merely records the fact that cursor positioning is required at that point in the document. Everything between ASCII code 0x20 (space) and ASCII code 0x7E (~) is a printable character with a corresponding alpha key on an ANSI computer keyboard.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: elfick on Mon, 16 July 2018, 19:02:59
I have been curious, not specifically with this set but in general, why the Tab is often/usually colored as a mod. It clearly isn't a mod and stylistically it seems it would look better if it matched the backslash, which definitely is an alpha.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: a_ak57 on Mon, 16 July 2018, 20:05:32
However, it is not uncommon for keys to be colored according to aesthetic rules unattached to key function or category. Look at all the keyboards that people have where they use "modifier colored" ~` and |\ keys so as to surround the central alpha block in the other color.

sup
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Mon, 16 July 2018, 20:11:22
I think we need to expand our notion of what a "modifier" can be. I think it is just easier to think of "modifiers" as keys that don't produce a printable character. Of course, that definition goes out the window with the numpad since keys like /, *, -, and + all produce printable characters but are colored as "mods", go figure (I don't know who first came up with that hair-brained scheme, but it feels like something we might be able to pin on IBM).
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: OracleKev on Mon, 16 July 2018, 22:30:06
It's interesting thought exercise to put meanings to key categorization, but there really isn't one right answer since what keys do and mean evolved over time.  Aesthetic taste changed over time as well. With homage set like this that predates familiar notions, it's even more complicated with lots of contradictions.

To me, unicolor function row looks wrong, even though I understand the Space Cadet lineage and unicolor makes more logical sense.
Not a huge deal to me, so support and respect designer's direction.  It didn't hurt to ask [nicely] for options to play with colors.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: T0mb3ry on Tue, 17 July 2018, 00:08:16
I have been curious, not specifically with this set but in general, why the Tab is often/usually colored as a mod. It clearly isn't a mod and stylistically it seems it would look better if it matched the backslash, which definitely is an alpha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_key

Read the first line. Its definitely not a character tho it has its special charachter for text formats. It is an control (in term of moving text cursor or changing focus in user controls) key. Otherwise the enter/return is an charachter too since it has its special charachter "\r" or "\r\n".
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: stu-rem on Tue, 17 July 2018, 10:14:43


... Aesthetic taste changed over time...

To me, unicolor function row looks wrong, even though I understand the Space Cadet lineage and unicolor makes more logical sense...

Understand --- though I remember I thought the reverse when IBM introduced the dual-colour top function row --- but that's just personal preference.
(and if you must have function keys, bring back the left column!)

The real annoyance was the Caps Lock / Control placement, IBM screwed us over on that!

----------

In either case, bring on Space Cadet!!


Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dvorcol on Tue, 17 July 2018, 12:18:57
Of course, that definition [of "modifier"] goes out the window with the numpad since keys like /, *, -, and + all produce printable characters but are colored as "mods", go figure...

Since the numpad layout matches that of a standard four-row calculator, the modifier colors were likely assigned to all keys that performed functions on calculators of the time.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: elfick on Tue, 17 July 2018, 12:28:01
I have been curious, not specifically with this set but in general, why the Tab is often/usually colored as a mod. It clearly isn't a mod and stylistically it seems it would look better if it matched the backslash, which definitely is an alpha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tab_key

Read the first line. Its definitely not a character tho it has its special charachter for text formats. It is an control (in term of moving text cursor or changing focus in user controls) key. Otherwise the enter/return is an charachter too since it has its special charachter "\r" or "\r\n".
I'm not sure how the first line explains why the tab key is normally colored with the mods, which generally aren't cursor control keys.
I wasn't saying tab is an alpha, but rather that it isn't a mod and I fully agree that it's closest to the return in usage.

Though, in thinking about this reply, I probably stumbled onto the answer...

I'd classify keys like this:
alphas = need no explanation but I would include spacebar since it's still a regular character
mods = keys that do nothing on their own and only modify other keys; shift, ctrl, alt, super
others = esc, tab, return, function keys, arrows, backspace/delete, home/end, page up/down

If you only have two "main" colors then you'd need to combine those three into two and it makes the most sense to color the mods and others the same.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Tue, 17 July 2018, 12:38:06
Problem solved, no more blue

(https://i.imgur.com/IDJRv9N.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dvorcol on Tue, 17 July 2018, 12:50:18
Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/IDJRv9N.jpg)


Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Tue, 17 July 2018, 13:16:47
Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/IDJRv9N.jpg)


Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

(https://i.imgur.com/Bbpg9lu.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: romevi on Tue, 17 July 2018, 13:25:52
Can you make it so that both the caps and legends are the same color blue?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Tue, 17 July 2018, 13:31:35
I'd classify keys like this:
alphas = need no explanation but I would include spacebar since it's still a regular character
mods = keys that do nothing on their own and only modify other keys; shift, ctrl, alt, super
others = esc, tab, return, function keys, arrows, backspace/delete, home/end, page up/down

If you only have two "main" colors then you'd need to combine those three into two and it makes the most sense to color the mods and others the same.

Indeed. Really there are only two categories today, alphas and "everything else". Our name for "everything else" is "modifier". There's no logic to be found in it. After all, logic and consistency was thrown out the window in 1981 when IBM decided to give the Model F/M keyboard an F-row in which two thirds of them were color coded as alphas and one third of them were color coded as modifiers.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: JFKroflcopter on Tue, 17 July 2018, 13:41:38
Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/IDJRv9N.jpg)


Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Bbpg9lu.jpg)


I need this.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dvorcol on Tue, 17 July 2018, 14:16:27
Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/IDJRv9N.jpg)


Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Bbpg9lu.jpg)


Really, really close.  Just these few minor adjustments and you're there:
  - Remove the secondary legends.
  - Darken all the legends a bit.  You know, almost black.
  - Use a lighter shade of grey on the mods.
  - Change colors on F1 - F4 and F9 - F12 to match the alphas.
  - Remove all the keycaps below the 6th row from the base kit.

Gotta keep the name, because that's what makes this set unique.  And it sounds super cool!

/s
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Vigrith on Tue, 17 July 2018, 15:25:10
Can you make it so that both the caps and legends are the same color blue?

Seconded.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: pvd on Tue, 17 July 2018, 16:02:50
Who else is in for space cadet monolegends?  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: mtuanvu on Wed, 18 July 2018, 03:05:11
(https://i.redd.it/w108mhyfama11.jpg)

My cadet is ready and waiting
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: stu-rem on Wed, 18 July 2018, 06:17:12
Who else is in for space cadet monolegends?  :thumb:
APL-only? Yeah!
_(good way to learn to touch-type)_

_or, Klingon-only..._

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dvorcol on Wed, 18 July 2018, 13:22:06
Show Image
(https://i.redd.it/w108mhyfama11.jpg)


My cadet is ready and waiting

Wow, I love your carbon fiber spacebar!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: MikeTheTiger on Fri, 20 July 2018, 04:30:03
Looking good. Am I not seeing Minivan support in the 40s kit?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 20 July 2018, 04:34:14
Looking good. Am I not seeing Minivan support in the 40s kit?

Correct, the 40s kit is currently considered final.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: MikeTheTiger on Fri, 20 July 2018, 04:35:38
Looking good. Am I not seeing Minivan support in the 40s kit?

Correct, the 40s kit is currently considered final.

Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: sgtpopwell on Mon, 23 July 2018, 16:20:23
I definitely need this in my life. Can't wait, super excited!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ye_cole on Mon, 23 July 2018, 16:48:37
Quote
Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.

Same question! I've been following this thread and carbon closely, and it seems odd.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: befbef on Mon, 23 July 2018, 17:47:14
What case colors would you say could fit well beside gray? Would like to see some renders with non gray cases.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: T0mb3ry on Mon, 23 July 2018, 18:06:11
What case colors would you say could fit well beside gray? Would like to see some renders with non gray cases.

Silver or white would match very well. Otherwise black works always. I personaly plan to put it on a keyboard with a silver case.
(https://i.imgur.com/tN6S3iS.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Mon, 23 July 2018, 19:32:39
Among the earliest Space Cadet keyboards is the one with the black case, but I am partial to the second generation version with the white case.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: MikeTheTiger on Tue, 24 July 2018, 01:46:49
Quote
Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.

Same question! I've been following this thread and carbon closely, and it seems odd.

It’s deliberate. See the Carbon thread.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 24 July 2018, 10:06:53
Quote
Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.

Same question! I've been following this thread and carbon closely, and it seems odd.

It’s deliberate. See the Carbon thread.

Stirring it up isn't helping anyone.  Let them handle it behind the scenes, and realize that they don't have to support it, nor are they beholden to tell why.  If you choose a custom layout, then supporting it is going to be at the whims of the keyset designers.  It's a sad, unfortunate, truth.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: MikeTheTiger on Tue, 24 July 2018, 11:05:19
Quote
Is there a reason why? I’m starting to notice a trend of lack of support.

Same question! I've been following this thread and carbon closely, and it seems odd.

It’s deliberate. See the Carbon thread.

Stirring it up isn't helping anyone.  Let them handle it behind the scenes, and realize that they don't have to support it, nor are they beholden to tell why.  If you choose a custom layout, then supporting it is going to be at the whims of the keyset designers.  It's a sad, unfortunate, truth.

Just stating the facts. I have a feeling I know the reasons why. It's just a shame that it has to be this way. There's so many great creators in this space. When it's an oversight, that's one thing. When it's deliberate, well...it's truely a shame. If you're deep into mechs, than hopefully theres a chance you have a "custom layout" or two and its always nice to move caps around and be able to outfit all your boards. I own several sets from both Oblotsky, T0mb3ry and Zambumon, so obviously I'm a fan of their work. I plan on joing their current IC's when they hit GB. It would just be nice for this to feel more like a community again, instead of what it has turned out to be. With that said, I can't wait for Space Cadet to launch so I can throw my money at it.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: hansichen on Tue, 24 July 2018, 11:49:59
Well, it wasn't their fault that the "community" feeling is gone   /shrug


btt: looking forward to red cadet  ;D
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: darthzero on Tue, 24 July 2018, 13:03:38
Wasn’t it though? Never heard of designers being entitled to be ask for approval for creating a new keycap profile. Instead of talking this through, eventually offering their creations in this new profile for a pretty awesome price, they went on a witch hunt. League of the extraordinary keyset designers vs one guy :)
Just my outsider perspective:*
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ideus on Tue, 24 July 2018, 14:52:15
Please be on topic. Derailing the thread from the concept and development of the set is not allowed in an IC or GB.

Threadcrapping as defined in the GB/IC rules:

"2) Threadcrapping: If you aren't interested in joining a group buy, STAY OUT OF THE GROUP BUY THREAD. This goes doubly so if you disagree with the way the buy is being run, the product being purchased, or have any other complaint not relevant to buying into the group buy. Repeat offenders put themselves in danger of moderator action."

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: hineybush on Tue, 24 July 2018, 15:20:28
I need this still. Gotta figure out which board would go well with the whole set, though..

Please run grey mods in the future  :-*
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Tue, 24 July 2018, 15:47:32
Problem solved, no more blue

Oh my god.. it is so beautiful. Please let this be real.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 24 July 2018, 15:49:17
Problem solved, no more blue

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/IDJRv9N.jpg)


Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Bbpg9lu.jpg)


I actually really like both of these.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Tue, 24 July 2018, 15:49:43
Oh, that's almost perfect!  If you'd just reverse the colors on the alpha keycaps (you know which ones I mean), this would be my endgame set!  /s

like this?

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/Bbpg9lu.jpg)


So clean. Looks like the inverse of the later generation Symbolics keyboards. :)

Both of these kits would be super versatile. In for two of the all grey though for that sweet sweet F-row when mixing.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Tue, 24 July 2018, 17:09:15
The later version of the Space Cadet had dark gray alphas and off-white modifiers. There was never a Space Cadet in which all the keys were dark gray. If you're going to eliminate blue keys in order to capture the essence of the later generation board, then this GB needs to provide off-white modifiers as well.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Blaise170 on Tue, 24 July 2018, 17:22:14
Getting rid of the blue is also an instant drop out on my end. The whole point of the set is Space Cadet, not "bunch of fancy symbols on gray keys".
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Tue, 24 July 2018, 17:23:24
Guys relax. There was a discussion about how the function row should be colored, and after some back and forth I jokingly said 'problem solved' by just dropping blue altogether. It is of course not going anywhere :)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Tue, 24 July 2018, 17:42:37
Oh, I wasn't referring to Oblotzky (and his GB) when I said "If you're going to get rid of the blue keys". I was referring to everyone who fancies building out a board without any blue keys on it.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 24 July 2018, 20:45:32
Oh, I wasn't referring to Oblotzky (and his GB) when I said "If you're going to get rid of the blue keys". I was referring to everyone who fancies building out a board without any blue keys on it.
[/quote

I was just saying that for a joke... I really like them.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Wetherbee on Tue, 24 July 2018, 23:30:50

The all Grey base kit is very nice.  :thumb:

Grey-on-silver is a beautiful combination IMHO.


[attach=1]
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 25 July 2018, 04:56:27
I just received the pricing sheet for the new version of the kits, and it looks good to me! the Assembly (Ergodox) and 40bit (Planck and 40%) are much more affordable now compared to the previous combined version. I am crossing my fingers that we can hit 100 on both of those.

Just over a week left for the drop to launch now!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Windeh on Wed, 25 July 2018, 06:08:15
I just received the pricing sheet for the new version of the kits, and it looks good to me! the Assembly (Ergodox) and 40bit (Planck and 40%) are much more affordable now compared to the previous combined version. I am crossing my fingers that we can hit 100 on both of those.

Just over a week left for the drop to launch now!

HYPE!!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: OracleKev on Wed, 25 July 2018, 10:51:41
I just received the pricing sheet for the new version of the kits, and it looks good to me! the Assembly (Ergodox) and 40bit (Planck and 40%) are much more affordable now compared to the previous combined version. I am crossing my fingers that we can hit 100 on both of those.

Just over a week left for the drop to launch now!

Can't wait!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: gnunin on Thu, 26 July 2018, 00:08:35
Will 40% cover the Minivan?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 26 July 2018, 01:39:19
Will 40% cover the Minivan?

It does not, sorry.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: glubazoid on Thu, 26 July 2018, 02:16:49
I just received the pricing sheet for the new version of the kits, and it looks good to me! the Assembly (Ergodox) and 40bit (Planck and 40%) are much more affordable now compared to the previous combined version. I am crossing my fingers that we can hit 100 on both of those.

Just over a week left for the drop to launch now!

MY WALLET IS READY
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 27 July 2018, 16:44:00
Launch date is set, will probably announce during the weekend.

Also I'll be sending this kit to Christoph on Monday for pricing, but I have ZERO hopes of it being offered. I just feel like I should at least give it a shot and get priced out, but with 41 new legend plates, that's about 61.5EUR in tooling alone, so this would translate to like 129$ or something insane like that for the kit.

Edit: first Y key has wrong sublegend, I'll fix and doublecheck everything tomorrow, too sleepy now.

(https://i.imgur.com/9nKHaNb.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dvorcol on Fri, 27 July 2018, 18:30:59
Launch date is set, will probably announce during the weekend.

Also I'll be sending this kit to Christoph on Monday for pricing, but I have ZERO hopes of it being offered. I just feel like I should at least give it a shot and get priced out, but with 41 new legend plates, that's about 61.5EUR in tooling alone, so this would translate to like 129$ or something insane like that for the kit.

Edit: first Y key has wrong sublegend, I'll fix and doublecheck everything tomorrow, too sleepy now.

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/9nKHaNb.jpg)


Could GMK also quote this as two unique kits, one for Dvorak and one for Colemak?

Usually Colevrak kits only need different keycaps for unique rows, so the number of extra keycaps for one layout or the other is not so big.  But for Space Cadet, exact position in each row is important to keep the symbols in the right places.  I think the number of unnecessary keycaps in a combined Colevrak kit will result in a huge kit price, and consequently the odds of reaching MOQ will be even smaller than usual.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Acereconkeys on Sat, 28 July 2018, 14:08:47
I realize it's very difficult to make happen but i'd personally love to see a colemak only kit for this. Agree with everything from the above poster.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 28 July 2018, 14:15:44
The image I posted has Colemak on the left and Dvorak on the right.

Splitting that into two makes the chances of either hitting 100 units even less likely than it already would be. I don't think the price drop on each for not carrying the other with it would change that much.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Acereconkeys on Sat, 28 July 2018, 14:46:18
The image I posted has Colemak on the left and Dvorak on the right.

Splitting that into two makes the chances of either hitting 100 units even less likely than it already would be. I don't think the price drop on each for not carrying the other with it would change that much.

How would the price hike not be big when the dvorak kit is significantly more new molds/keys added?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ideus on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:13:26
The 40bit kit is missing the |\ key. In either R1 or R4, or both.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:16:50
The 40bit kit is missing the |\ key. In either R1 or R4, or both.

I don't see it used in any default layout of Preonic or 40% keebs, mind showing me which one it would be for?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ideus on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:25:10
The 40bit kit is missing the |\ key. In either R1 or R4, or both.

I don't see it used in any default layout of Preonic or 40% keebs, mind showing me which one it would be for?


It is a fifty keeb. This is my own interpretation, of course. Just thinking that one key could make the set more flexible. I understand that it may be a sort of unique interpretation.


(https://i.imgur.com/GrRTLLm.png)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 28 July 2018, 15:31:17
The 40bit kit is missing the |\ key. In either R1 or R4, or both.

I don't see it used in any default layout of Preonic or 40% keebs, mind showing me which one it would be for?


It is a fifty keeb. This is my own interpretation, of course. Just thinking that one key could make the set more flexible. I understand that it may be a sort of unique interpretation.


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/GrRTLLm.png)


Yeah I'm afraid that this is too unique. The kits are locked except for errors in standard layout coverage.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: ideus on Sat, 28 July 2018, 16:29:54
The 40bit kit is missing the |\ key. In either R1 or R4, or both.

I don't see it used in any default layout of Preonic or 40% keebs, mind showing me which one it would be for?


It is a fifty keeb. This is my own interpretation, of course. Just thinking that one key could make the set more flexible. I understand that it may be a sort of unique interpretation.


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/GrRTLLm.png)


Yeah I'm afraid that this is too unique. The kits are locked except for errors in standard layout coverage.


It worth asking any way. Thank you.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sat, 28 July 2018, 19:27:07
Soon  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/WAzgbLV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/geXECEn.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Lormania on Sat, 28 July 2018, 19:32:21
So pumped!!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Sat, 28 July 2018, 19:46:06
Render needs blue spacebar. It's okay though, it's a common mistake.  :p
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: cijanzen on Sat, 28 July 2018, 21:59:52
Render needs blue spacebar. It's okay though, it's a common mistake.  :p

Haha we went over this already! Don’t bring up the mod/alpha colour battle once again!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Sun, 29 July 2018, 00:49:55
We did, and the renders still end up wrong.  :confused:  :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Remsky on Sun, 29 July 2018, 01:46:56
We did, and the renders still end up wrong.  :confused:  :))
Wont have to wait on a render if you buy the drop in a august and then wait several months. Or check the front page
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Sun, 29 July 2018, 10:54:04
Render needs blue spacebar. It's okay though, it's a common mistake.  :p

This again.. happy now? :P probably asking for black legends on bottom rows next :D

(https://i.imgur.com/WI06poc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/r9KFwtj.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: packman86 on Sun, 29 July 2018, 11:02:40
Soon  ;)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/WAzgbLV.jpg)


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/geXECEn.jpg)


Can your render this same keyset on the Silver M60? I need to know if I should start asking around for a colorswap :)

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Sun, 29 July 2018, 11:05:41
Yeah, black legends on the bottom two rows of modifiers would look great (and correct), but as I look at that render I now realize the aesthetic compromises that a 60% keyboard imposes on this keycap set makes things like blue spacebars and black legends rather moot. Without an F-row to properly "wrap" the gray alphas, I agree that a gray spacebar probably looks better. I am willing to concede that point, while also taking the position that anything called Space Cadet doesn't belong on any keyboard so small that it doesn't have an F-row...  :confused:
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: xondat on Sun, 29 July 2018, 14:30:06
Yeah, black legends on the bottom two rows of modifiers would look great (and correct), but as I look at that render I now realize the aesthetic compromises that a 60% keyboard imposes on this keycap set makes things like blue spacebars and black legends rather moot. Without an F-row to properly "wrap" the gray alphas, I agree that a gray spacebar probably looks better. I am willing to concede that point, while also taking the position that anything called Space Cadet doesn't belong on any keyboard so small that it doesn't have an F-row...  :confused:

Not everything has to be historically accurate... Getting boring now.

This is GMK anyway, I think you're lost.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Remsky on Sun, 29 July 2018, 19:14:08
Yeah, black legends on the bottom two rows of modifiers would look great (and correct), but as I look at that render I now realize the aesthetic compromises that a 60% keyboard imposes on this keycap set makes things like blue spacebars and black legends rather moot. Without an F-row to properly "wrap" the gray alphas, I agree that a gray spacebar probably looks better. I am willing to concede that point, while also taking the position that anything called Space Cadet doesn't belong on any keyboard so small that it doesn't have an F-row...  :confused:

I think you would be happier living in the 80's rather than the current day for keyboards it sounds like.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: zslane on Sun, 29 July 2018, 20:11:58
Aesthetically, yes. Functionality-wise, not so much. I appreciate standardized layouts and data protocols. But I think it goes without saying that switches and keycaps were far superior in design and construction back then (prior to IBM leading everything down the road to ruin in 1981). And keyboards just looked infinitely more impressive back then too.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Mon, 30 July 2018, 04:21:45
Soon  ;)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/WAzgbLV.jpg)


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/geXECEn.jpg)


Can your render this same keyset on the Silver M60? I need to know if I should start asking around for a colorswap :)

Ask and you shall receive

(https://i.imgur.com/wosYhQx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/N9jajlN.jpg)

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: packman86 on Tue, 31 July 2018, 00:04:21
Soon  ;)

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/WAzgbLV.jpg)


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/geXECEn.jpg)


Can your render this same keyset on the Silver M60? I need to know if I should start asking around for a colorswap :)

Ask and you shall receive

Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/wosYhQx.jpg)


Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/N9jajlN.jpg)


Looks like I will be keeping my Silver M60. That looks awesome!

Thanks for the render!

Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: otanishock on Tue, 31 July 2018, 04:31:46
How about some render on Modern M0110?  :))
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: chouyu on Tue, 31 July 2018, 14:12:55
when it goes to GB,and where ;D
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: cijanzen on Tue, 31 July 2018, 14:26:20
when it goes to GB,and where ;D

Massdrop. August.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 01 August 2018, 03:00:04
We go live on Friday, an E-Mail should go out later today.

Please note that Colevrak is being considered, but not yet guaranteed. CK is trying to work out favorable pricing for both sides.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: damagepoint on Wed, 01 August 2018, 05:34:23
We go live on Friday, an E-Mail should go out later today.

Please note that Colevrak is being considered, but not yet guaranteed. CK is trying to work out favorable pricing for both sides.
Wooooooooo my first and probably only GMK set so stoked
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 01 August 2018, 09:18:49
Just got tracking from GMK for color samples.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: romevi on Wed, 01 August 2018, 09:45:17
Just got tracking from GMK for color samples.

🍪
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Lormania on Wed, 01 August 2018, 10:05:56
Ahhh yeahhh
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: mbsurfer on Wed, 01 August 2018, 11:41:20
So ready! Grats on the go live Oblotzky!
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: xondat on Wed, 01 August 2018, 11:49:20
Just got tracking from GMK for color samples.

Can't you just walk to them? ^-^
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: oldcat on Wed, 01 August 2018, 12:46:45
launching soon?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: forevermadrigal on Wed, 01 August 2018, 13:04:06
launching soon?

Friday
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 01 August 2018, 14:04:17
Looks like we're going through with the Colevrak kit. You guys better be ready to keep your promises, it's 99$ at 100 units due to more keys and 40 new legend plates. I'll also post renders later (probably tomorrow) of how these two layouts will look like. Please note that the 1.75 Backspace is 'missing' on purpose, use the Rub Out keys (stepped and non-stepped available) from the Base kit.

(https://i.imgur.com/DG61nfp.png)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 01 August 2018, 14:32:21
You guys better be ready to keep your promises

lol
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: dvorcol on Wed, 01 August 2018, 15:01:43
launching soon?

Friday

Yes, you can see the drop about to go live, including all pricing, here (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-oblotzky-gmk-space-cadet-keycap-set).
(If you are not a Massdrop member, this (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-oblotzky-gmk-space-cadet-keycap-set?mode=guest_open) works.)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: cijanzen on Wed, 01 August 2018, 15:16:23
Very nice pricing on this! Excited to see how it does.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August, big update
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 01 August 2018, 16:17:57
Drop page is live as dvorcol linked, I'll submit GB thread tomorrow so this one will close soon.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: Zambumon on Wed, 01 August 2018, 16:25:05
I might be interested on this set.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: Oblotzky on Wed, 01 August 2018, 16:27:41
I might be interested on this set.

Yeah, I think I might actually end up getting it myself
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: darthzero on Thu, 02 August 2018, 02:09:23
Question: on some renders it looks like the alpha legend color is sort of yellowish while the legends on the mods and blue alphas look more like white (cp). Is this correct?
Also, because it has an influence on what i‘ll buy in the space cadet run, will red cadet be all red in the base set or will it be grey/red like space cadet is grey/blue?
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: Oblotzky on Thu, 02 August 2018, 02:20:12
Question: on some renders it looks like the alpha legend color is sort of yellowish while the legends on the mods and blue alphas look more like white (cp). Is this correct?
Also, because it has an influence on what i‘ll buy in the space cadet run, will red cadet be all red in the base set or will it be grey/red like space cadet is grey/blue?

#1 illusion, the color of the legends is identical on all keys in my legend files.
#2 I am hesitant to answer because I truly do not know at this point. if crimson cadet is offered, there MIGHT be a separate gray alphas kit availabe. but it MIGHT also not be. I don't even know how well this version will perform, so to say what kits I want to offer with an even yet unknown vendor is really a shot in the dark.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: darthzero on Thu, 02 August 2018, 02:44:13
Question: on some renders it looks like the alpha legend color is sort of yellowish while the legends on the mods and blue alphas look more like white (cp). Is this correct?
Also, because it has an influence on what i‘ll buy in the space cadet run, will red cadet be all red in the base set or will it be grey/red like space cadet is grey/blue?

#1 illusion, the color of the legends is identical on all keys in my legend files.
#2 I am hesitant to answer because I truly do not know at this point. if crimson cadet is offered, there MIGHT be a separate gray alphas kit availabe. but it MIGHT also not be. I don't even know how well this version will perform, so to say what kits I want to offer with an even yet unknown vendor is really a shot in the dark.
The intention of the question was more or less, will i end up with two grey alpha sets laying around collecting dust, so i'm pretty relieved after this answer :)
To #1, i got a new monitor and didn't fiddle around with the settings sorry... i assume it's white then?!  :rolleyes: 
Thx and glwgb .. hope we hit the 1k base and 250 blue alphas :>
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: zslane on Thu, 02 August 2018, 12:48:19
i assume it's white then?!  :rolleyes: 

IIRC, it is off-white, to give it something of a "vintage", slightly used look.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: hineybush on Thu, 02 August 2018, 12:53:09
In the OP, oblo says "probably" CP.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: darthzero on Thu, 02 August 2018, 13:33:07
Awesome, will fit with many other sets then... thx guys.
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 03 August 2018, 07:00:42
Gonna close this thread in about an hour when the drop is live, submitting GB thread now

also, color samples! GR9 is the same that was used for GMK Oblivion alphas, the legend color will be different though. Space Cadet will be using the off-white and slightly creamy/warm color shown below. Black is just CR from the standard GMK colors

(https://i.imgur.com/VjinTOa.jpg)
Title: Re: [IC] GMK Space Cadet, launches August 3rd 2018 on Massdrop
Post by: Oblotzky on Fri, 03 August 2018, 09:29:21
GB thread here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=96869.0)