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what a beautiful day

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bhtooefr:
But, on the flip side, removing everyone's (including NON-radical Muslims) rights for the sake of a bit of safety isn't a good thing. And, attacking them kinda makes us a higher priority target, no?

(Do note that I'm not arguing against the war in Afghanistan. That was in response to an act of war on our soil. The war in Iraq, and the kneejerk legislation and warrantless wiretaps and such here is what I'm arguing against.)

iMav:

--- Quote from: bhtooefr;19473 ---But, on the flip side, removing everyone's (including NON-radical Muslims) rights for the sake of a bit of safety isn't a good thing. And, attacking them kinda makes us a higher priority target, no?
--- End quote ---

I'm all for our rights being returned to us.  It's ticked me off for years that my right to bear arms has been severely hampered in the state of Wisconsin.  

I'd also like to see a move back to the initial intent of the checks and balances laid down in the US Constitution.  They can start by repealing the 17th ammendment.  Senators were never intended to win their seats via statewide popular vote.  The House of Representatives is intended to represent the people.  The Senate was intended to represent the state interests (and should, again, be appointed by the state legislatures).  That act alone would go a long way in returning Washington DC politics to where it should be. (currently, our state governments have ZERO voices in the federal government)

bhtooefr:
Really, we need to look at the European Union - despite all of its issues, its structure seems to be closer to the intent of the United States than the United States is.

ashort:

--- Quote from: bhtooefr;19475 ---Really, we need to look at the European Union - despite all of its issues, its structure seems to be closer to the intent of the United States than the United States is.
--- End quote ---


How could we possibly manage our day to day affairs and hold our meager lives together without a large federal government to proctect us???

wellington1869:

--- Quote from: iMav;19472 ---Radical muslim extremist's desire to kill all infidels is a constant.  This isn't a matter of them disliking our policies and retaliating...it's a fundamental, radical belief that all non-muslims (especially those that aid the nation of Israel) should die.
--- End quote ---


I agree with the above, but I'm not sure how much credit bush deserves for the fact that we havent seen another successful attempt yet. I think it has more to do with the basic incompetence and ad-hoc style of the terrorists and pure dumb luck. Everyone including bush's own CIA chiefs have always said that another attack is merely a matter of time. And bush's anti-terror policies have been as much a 3-stooges style comedy of errors all along the way. Its not like he's super competent or anything. He didnt even know that there were shias and sunnis and that they were different.

Anyway, regardless, there hasnt been another attack and bush will take credit for it whether or not its warranted, sure.  I'm just not convinced it happened like that because of anything concrete he in particular did. His war on terror was much like his war on the flood in louisiana. Or his war on low interest rates.

dont get me wrong, I'm sure he was sincere most of the time; and I'm a centrist myself (variously call myself a libertarian, centrist, pragmatist, moderate, agnostic, etc). I dont affiliate by party and I'm deeply suspicious of ideology-based policy whether thats pushed from left or right.

(this is largely why I like Barry. barry isnt a leftist. He's already pissed off the left. He's very clearly a centrist and a pragmatist and he's going to continue to piss off the Left (as much as the Right). And that to me means he's doing something right).

But I'm trying to think if there is anything I'd credit bush for based on actual competency, ie, stuff he did by design which worked out well for america by design and based on knowledge and skill. And honestly I cant think of anything off the top of my head.

(edit: so, arguably, rather than saying well there hasnt been another attack yet, perhaps the real measure of anti-terrorism success might have been a) capture of bin laden, b) getting more middle eastern governments on-board in the fight against terror). And arguably Barry will come closer to that by a) developing alliances rather than breaking them, b) going after afghanistan rather than iraq))

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