NPR story on Model M & Unicomp

[wellington1869]

The GIF animation would be on sandy's site, and it's of a 5576-A01's BS module, IIRC.

found the gif animation, about 2/3 of the way down the page here:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_bucklingspring_e.htm

it clearly shows the spring striking the back of the barrel (directly through that U shaped cutout on the stem).
Assuming regular bs switches work the same way.

But then what causes the click on the upstroke?

[wellington1869]

here's a white paper by ibm (it looks like) on the model M keyboard. kind of interesting though it doesnt actually answer our question...

[bhtooefr]

You can see the lever hitting the top of the structure on the upstroke.

I would like one of those models to play with, though.

[wellington1869]

You can see the lever hitting the top of the structure on the upstroke.

I would like one of those models to play with, though.

would the lever click that loudly in the actual switch? The plastic model (while it looks like a lot of fun and I want one too!) doesnt seem to be 100% accurate.

[bhtooefr]

OK, it's definitely either the spring or the lever.

I've got a keycap off of my Model M, and I'm getting the clicking noises using a pen to buckle the spring, without it coming anywhere near the wall.

(And, yes, I got the key to actuate.)

[bhtooefr]

And, it's definitely the spring itself. Using the same pen, I directly tapped on the lever, and it made no noise except for the spring rattling, hitting it against the membrane.

[wellington1869]

hmmm, i cant belive the spring by itself can be that loud. I'll try it on my endurapro...

[bhtooefr]

Be very careful. I might have damaged my spring. (Good thing I have a parts Model M at my mom's place. I just have to figure out how to get a spring out of it without damaging it - the spring was stretched, partially by the pen. Now, it actuates without buckling - either that, or it's too long, and is buckled even at zero travel, but not actuating the key somehow.)

But, outside of the keyboard, I was repeatedly getting it to buckle with noise. There may be interaction with the keycap, too.

[bhtooefr]

OK, and the stretched spring acts differently now - it buckles (and actuates, due to the nature of BS) with the key outside of the normal travel (not actually installed,) but only when pressed a certain way. When pressed that way, it doesn't look like the spring is coming forward far enough to tap the front wall.

[wellington1869]

Be very careful. I might have damaged my spring. .

D'oh! Thanks for the warning  
I tried it with my pinky, it buckled but I didnt hear any click... maybe i'm not doing it right...

[lowpoly]

Be very careful. I might have damaged my spring. (Good thing I have a parts Model M at my mom's place. I just have to figure out how to get a spring out of it without damaging it - the spring was stretched, partially by the pen. Now, it actuates without buckling - either that, or it's too long, and is buckled even at zero travel, but not actuating the key somehow.)

But, outside of the keyboard, I was repeatedly getting it to buckle with noise. There may be interaction with the keycap, too.

Maybe try to re-seat the keycap? That happened all the time when assembling my M2. I seat the keycaps in a curve motion coming from the front. Well, I'm sure you can seat a keycap.

I also had one or two lengthend springs because I let the kids assemble the keyboard. I managed to readjust them with pliers. So maybe that might help depending on where the stretched part is.

[wellington1869]

I'm still wondering where the clicks come from, on this most famous of all switches.

 (I still dont believe that its just the spring all on its own without hitting the barrel... or is it?)

I mean if i take a spring out of a ball point pen, and buckle it, there's no bloody click.

[xsphat]

I mean if i take a spring out of a ball point pen, and buckle it, there's no bloody click.

Maybe the click fairy comes along every time you depress a key. I have a feeling the click is in fact caused by the spring hitting the barrel.

[wellington1869]

Maybe the click fairy comes along every time you depress a key.

I think you're on to something  And clearly she's invisible cuz no one seems to have a clue as to how it works!

I have a feeling the click is in fact caused by the spring hitting the barrel.

Thats the current theory... but we're having trouble explaining the click on the upstroke.

(Also the big plastic model in the NPR video shows the spring not hitting the side, which is odd; and bht too claims he can make it click without hitting the side (I couldnt, but then I also didnt want to ruin my springs, lol).) Would a spring click if it buckles on its own? I dont know.

[xsphat]

I'll check it out tomorrow on my son's M2. He's sleeping right now so I'm not going to dig in his toy box. I'll see if I can come up with a better theory than the Clcik Fairy.

[xsphat]

Would a spring click if it buckles on its own?

Very Buddhist sounding, I dig it. You might be a Bodhisattva.

[itlnstln]

Thats the current theory... but we're having trouble explaining the click on the upstroke.

I would imagine that since the spring is so close to the near wall in the barrel, that as you release the pressure on spring, the snapping back of the spring hits the near wall just as the spring strikes the far wall in the down press.

[lowpoly]

Isn't the stem open on the buckling side but closed on the other? If that's the case the spring wouldn't have to travel as far to hit the wall when snapping back.

[bhtooefr]

Trust me, I've tried reseating the keycap quite a few times.

I might try pliers, but I couldn't really get the spring to compress the way I wanted it to with other stuff, because it just wanted to buckle, not compress.

Anyway, outside of the keyboard, with a pen on the spring, the key upside down, into the key, I was able to push down on the spring, simulating a BS mechanism, and it reliably clicked.

[lowpoly]

And did it click against anything then?

[itlnstln]

Watching the video on NPR, it was the hammer that clicked against the housing.  This seems to be confirmed by the excerpt of the patent filing here (see the last couple of lines):

http://clickykeyboards.com/

[bhtooefr]

And did it click against anything then?

It may have been interacting with the keycap somehow, but I'm not sure.

[wellington1869]

I was wondering if it was the hammer doing all the noise.
And I cant believe we're not sure about this! I mean if geekhackers dont know, who does? Only the click fairy...


(this also raises the question of: why would the click  be dampened if you grease the spring then? Because it slows down the "rate of buckling" and therefore causes the hammer to not move as abruptly?)

[wellington1869]

Very Buddhist sounding, I dig it. You might be a Bodhisattva.

lol. I should put it in my sig.

[lal]

"Would a spring click if it buckles on its own?" is indeed a cool sig-candidate.

I didn't read the patent, but the excerpt on clickykeyboards quite clearly indicates that the hammer is responsible for the acoustic feedback. Maybe the shock wave from the hammer hitting the bottom and the top travels through the spring which acts like a resonator producing the metallic sound?

Another idea:



At the top of the spring in this picture, that I've unscrupulously stolen from qwerters clinic, I marked two regions where the spring could be hitting the keycap on the down and up stroke respectively, producing a sound. That would explain why it clicked when bhtooefr buckled the spring in the upside down keycap alone... (btw, I hope you'll be able to repair the spring, bhtooefr. If not, thanks for the sacrifice in the name of science )

[bhtooefr]

Which that means there may be yet another way to do this.

Drip some PlastiDip into the area where the spring and key meet. This'll be a high-friction area, though, so the PlastiDip will probably wear off.

[wellington1869]

Which that means there may be yet another way to do this.

Drip some PlastiDip into the area where the spring and key meet. This'll be a high-friction area, though, so the PlastiDip will probably wear off.

That would have to be a careful insertion. Might be easier if the barrel was pulled off the board (like lam did recently). But ya, in theory I suppose it might work. If someone did that as an experiment, since plasti-dip (unlike grease) wont get on the spring, that might also tell us something about the relative contributions of the barrel versus the spring in terms of contributions to the click noise.

[patrickgeekhack]

That's what you get when you make quality stuff. Make cheap crap that will break in a month and you get the customer back.
I know I won't have to buy a new board from Unicomp in years.

Actually some companies make sure that their products don't last beyond a certain time or number usage for that same reason. For example, if I make a light bulb that will last for years, then chances are I won't be selling to many of these regularly.

I, too, would hate Unicomp to go out of business. I always wanted to have a buckling spring/mechanical keyboard but until recently did not know where to find a new one--I'm not a big fan of pre-owned keyboards. Thanks to Unicomp, I now own one. The service was top notch. I'm sure there are tons of people out there who would like to get their hands on a buckling spring keyboard, but simply don't know they can buy one and where. Someone tried my Customizer and said it was very nice.

Now, if Unicomp could make a little less noisy version of its keyboard for office use, I would buy one even if it cost me quite a bit to get it shipped to Canada for two main reason: more pleasant keyboard to work with, and the knowledge that it will last a long long time. I will probably buy a space saver by the end of year. Hopefully, they'll still be in business.

[bhtooefr]

You know, maybe Unicomp can really push the American-made angle? In this economy...

[patrickgeekhack]

You know, maybe Unicomp can really push the American-made angle? In this economy...

What about those in Canada ? We have to pay more for shipping and custom broker fee :-)

Seriously, like some have said, Unicomp should think about making some more "nice looking" and maybe less noisy keyboard for those who would like a buckling spring keyboard, but only if it is not as "old looking." When I unboxed my Customizer 104, the first thing my wife said was: "Oh my God! How old is that thing?" Of course, Unicomp should keep making the current models for those who like the original look.