Beware of buying keyboards on eBay

[PointyFox]

I was looking for a mechanical number pad on eBay and found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221123388393?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
I noticed it said it was "clicky", so I bought it.  When I received it, it turned out to be rubber dome 

I told the seller, salesatcomputercloseout I wanted to return it and he refused, saying that eBay would decide in his favor and that he's sold "thousands" of these (even though according to his listing I was the only buyer), so I opened a case against him, describing in great detail differences between "clicky" and "non-clicky" keyboards and why my item wasn't as described.  So about an hour later I get a response from eBay:

Decision:
This case has been decided in the seller's favor.

Comments:
Based on information provided in the case, the item you received matched the seller's description but you no longer wanted the item. eBay Buyer Protection doesn't cover situations where an item is accurately described.

It seems people in India haven't a clue about mechanical keyboards.   

Also this seller is a jerk.

[khaangaaroo]

Lame! is there some kind of appeal process?

[PointyFox]

Yeah, just resubmitted my speech about mechanical and non-mechanical keyboards... Waiting to hear back.

Here is my original case:

"The item's description lists this as a "clicky keyboard". This means that the keys produce an audible "click" when depressed (not bottomed out). This is a feature of a few particular mechanical switch types and primarily is used for the buckling spring switch. Other types include Cherry MX Blue and some Alps switches. I paid more for this item than similar items because this item was listed as "clicky" (more expensive and rare than non-clicky) and had its original box. When I received the item, I noticed that it uses the cheap rubber dome switches and was falsely represented as a more expensive variety. I emailed the seller and told them I wanted them to pay for return shipping since the item was not as described. They called me and told me that I had emailed them before to cancel the order after I placed it, and that they thought I just didn't want it. I did email to cancel the order I placed around 5PM since I noticed that the box was date-stamped '99, and that the keypad inside of it was only made in 1991, and the manual was copyright 1991, leading me to believe that this was not the original box. They called me somewhere around an hour later of me ordering it and told me they already shipped it, and told me the box was sealed so it had to be original. I accepted the box as possibly being original with no explanation for the date-stamp, and said it was OK. The seller refused to pay return shipping and stated that "clicky" is a difference of opinion and that they've sold "thousands with no complaints", even though it looks like I was the only one who purchased one so far according to their listing. A keyboard is either "clicky" or it is not. There's no interpretation to be had there. Look at http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/9608 . They list rubber dome keyboards as "non-clicky". Most IBM Model M keyboards are clicky. When they aren't clicky, people say so like in this eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-Non-Clicky-Rubber-Dome-Keyboard-2-23-96-Refurbished-/280964053448?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item416ac339c8 . Note "non-clicky (rubber dome)" in the title. Here is a forum topic about an eBay listing that describes a rubber dome as "clicky": http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11862.0 . Note a response: "Actually since clicky is a defined term (unlike "semi-clicky") this counts as a fraudulent listing. I reported him. ..." I would like either a refund or return shipping paid, and no more of these "clicky doesn't mean clicky /you tried to return it already, so it doesn't matter that my listing is fraudulent" phone calls. "

[thegunner100]

Do what's right and just give him negative feedback.

[nullstring]

This is why you pay with a credit card.
The credit card company will be happy to issue a chargeback for you.

[PointyFox]

This is why you pay with a credit card.
The credit card company will be happy to issue a chargeback for you.

Yeah, sadly eBay owns PayPal and eBay has final say over PayPal transactions. 

[Lu_e]

CALL PAYPAL, seriously, talking this through with someone who properly comprehends the english language could be all you need. Ive gotten my money back @ 46 days calling in.

[PointyFox]

Just got off the phone with eBay.  They consider "clicky" a "subjective" term, and ignore it in descriptions.   
So, you're pretty much out of luck when you order one and get a rubber dome. 

I told them more about keyboards and I should have the results of the appeal by Tuesday. 

[IvanIvanovich]

Strange, I've dealt with them several times, and never had a problem with them. They even gave me a majority refund on a Cherry board I bought since it was quite a lot more yellowed in person than the photo showed. I didn't even ask about refund, just complained about it.
As always, whenever buying an unknown model confirmation is a must like a picture with keycap removed, if they won't you can either gamble or not buy.

[BucklingSpring]

It seems people in India haven't a clue about mechanical keyboards.   

Hold your horse! India is the land of the TVS GOLD... Cheapest Cherry MX based keyboard on the planet. ~40$ New

The US Layout is called the TVS GOLD Bharat Obama  )

[fohat.digs]

Ebay almost always decides in the seller's favor.

And "clicky" probably is a subjective term to anyone who does not appreciate clicky key switches.

[AKIMbO]

That seller does have an inordinate amount of negative feedback in the past 1 month.  12 negative or neutral reviews out of 312 transactions in a month seems high to me.  Leave him negative feedback.

[BucklingSpring]

CALL PAYPAL, seriously, talking this through with someone who properly comprehends the english language could be all you need. Ive gotten my money back @ 46 days calling in.

+1 I had a problem once and I got my money back assle free

[sth]

so you took the sellers word without bothering to do any of your own research to find out the construction of the numpad? seller does have negative feedback sure, but 'clicky' doesn't mean anything in a technical sense...

[neuraxis]

And "clicky" probably is a subjective term to anyone who does not appreciate clicky key switches.

Which is the definition of a subjective term.

I don't know why you would consider the term "clicky" to have to be in the mechanical keyboard sense, when no English thesaurus even recognizes it as such. Since mechanical keyboard sellers generally capitalize on the fact that their keyboards are mechanical by mentioning it and displaying it as much as possible, common sense would have dictated to look in the description for some confirmation that the keyboard is indeed mechanical, before buying it, and not buying it if there is none. I think the OP lacks common sense.

[BucklingSpring]

I'm surprised you guys didn't make any mention about "tactile" which typically refers to the bump. Rubber domes can be tactile.

I suspect the sellers meant tactile instead of clicky. Now if the keybaord is not tactile either than it was certainly missleading :-)

Why are we having this conversation again?

[FoxWolf1]

I would leave negative feedback for the seller simply because of his attitude towards the situation.

Also, IMO "clicky" is not that hard to define objectively...a keyboard/keypad is "clicky" just in case its keys have a mechanism designed to produce an auditory feedback event distinct from the sound of the key reaching the end of its travel. If there is no such mechanism, it ain't clicky (no matter how subjectively "loud" it might be).

That said, when you buy something on eBay (or elsewhere), do your own research first. If you take a product's advertising as your main source of information about it before buying, you're bound to be disappointed.

[Pretendo]

I would leave negative feedback for the seller simply because of his attitude towards the situation.

Also, IMO "clicky" is not that hard to define objectively...a keyboard/keypad is "clicky" just in case its keys have a mechanism designed to produce an auditory feedback event distinct from the sound of the key reaching the end of its travel. If there is no such mechanism, it ain't clicky (no matter how subjectively "loud" it might be).

That said, when you buy something on eBay (or elsewhere), do your own research first. If you take a product's advertising as your main source of information about it before buying, you're bound to be disappointed.

Agreed.  It would have been better practice for the seller to just refund the $30 and satisfy the customer.  That's how you get repeat customers.  Aside from the negative feedback, the seller is getting negative press here on gh.  He could have lots of potential buyers here.

The seller is technically in the right though.  The listing never says that the key switches are mechanical or buckling spring.  Research on the buyers part would have easily fleshed this out as a rubber dome product.  It's fairly obvious just looking at the images.  The IBM numpad  is dated 1999, which is after the bs design was sold to unicomp.

The OP / buyers point remains intact though; be careful buying on ebay!  Do your homework and research products before placing a bid.  Ding the seller if he isn't honest, and leave negative feedback so he won't stay a seller for long

[rayuki]

well to be honest you had all the info you needed in the sale to double check.

he posted pics of the box including ID codes etc you could have just googled it.

[PointyFox]

well to be honest you had all the info you needed in the sale to double check.

he posted pics of the box including ID codes etc you could have just googled it.

I did and couldn't find anything about them.  I figured I'd be able to return it if he was wrong about it being clicky.

[urbanus]

Once a seller falls below 99%, I'm wary.  Below 98.5% -- no way.

I also look at recent feedback descriptions, particularly for cases where the buyer had a problem and tried to contact the seller but said the seller didn't respond, was tardy or unhelpful etc.  That's a sign of what you can expect if things go wrong for you.

Furthermore, don't hesitate to ask a seller a question if at all in doubt.  If you're not entirely certain about what you're getting, it's up to you to clarify.  Bad sellers often show their true form by not replying (or not promptly), or by saying things that don't "add up".  If it doesn't seem right, then again: nope.

Ebay is a bit risky.  Although there are usually no problems if you are careful, you have to accept that not every transaction will be smooth. 

I do sympathise: you got bummed, you bought something you didn't want.  But that happens, sad to say.  You've tried complaining, perhaps now it's time to move on?

[ferociousfingerings]

I think the real problem here is that so many people have figured out the trick to just blanketing the word "subjective" onto every term they wish to redefine, or every definition thereof, that does not benefit them.

Too many people have figured out that you can just say "well, that's subjective." about anything, and through refusing to agree on definitions, completely halt the communication process, thereby preventing any and all resolutions.

I mean... if we can't define "clicky" as "having or exhibiting the property of an audible click..." then... what can we "define?"

If "clicky" doesn't mean "something that clicks,"

Then...

What means anything!?


For them to say "oh, 'click' is subjective" as though that somehow means that it has no meaning, is the kind of strategic conversational evasion tactic, that makes me want to just smash skulls.


On the other hand... i hate to say... always ask the seller, if you don't find sufficient information actually stated somewhere in the description.

[Pretendo]

I think the real problem here is that so many people have figured out the trick to just blanketing the word "subjective" onto every term they wish to redefine, or every definition thereof, that does not benefit them.

Too many people have figured out that you can just say "well, that's subjective." about anything, and through refusing to agree on definitions, completely halt the communication process, thereby preventing any and all resolutions.

I mean... if we can't define "clicky" as "having or exhibiting the property of an audible click..." then... what can we "define?"

If "clicky" doesn't mean "something that clicks,"

Then...

What means anything!?


For them to say "oh, 'click' is subjective" as though that somehow means that it has no meaning, is the kind of strategic conversational evasion tactic, that makes me want to just smash skulls.


On the other hand... i hate to say... always ask the seller, if you don't find sufficient information actually stated somewhere in the description.

But even rubber dome keyboards have an audible noise, especially full travel ones from the mid to late '90s.  I don't doubt that the num pad emits some sort of noise if typed upon.

There's a valid point here though.  If you look through the sellers other listed products (very numerous,) he has many keyboards listed.  It seems that any keyboard made before 2000 gets labeled as "clicky."  Some of these keyboards are mechanical and others aren't.  He also uses the words "vintage," "tactile," and "rare" in his titles excessively.  Some of the mech. boards are labeled as such while others aren't.  This seller clearly doesn't know much about the products that he is selling, and it's easy to see how there was confusion.  The buyer could have been more proactive with research, but it's easy to see where a mistake could be made.

[ferociousfingerings]

Rather than debate the semantics of words like "clicky," i will instead broaden my previous recommendation:

Beware of buying anything from anywhere or anyone.

Most people in this world are out to make a buck, and quite a many of them will manipulate the language they use, accordingly.

Some people might even do keyword research, in order to find which words a potential keyboard buyer will want to see, and then include those terms, despite their product not actually matching them.

Smart sellers know to "intercept" a potential conversion or "hot lead," by attempting to be the most visible, appealing, and readily obtainable target, for a buyer who is already searching for that thing.

In other words: some people will paint poop gold, and call it "clicky," just to get your money. lol.

[Findecanor]

I reported it as "Keyword spamming" and "Misleading keywords". We should all do this.

[Krogenar]

I agree with the others -- leave negative feedback. Yes, 'clicky' is a subjective term, but likely the seller knew precisely what they were doing by placing the word 'clicky' in the description. If enough negative feedback is left, eventually people will stop buying. And yet, the information is out there about keyboards. If the product images show a label, research the hell out of it.

Most of the sellers on eBay are legit, but there are always some weird listings. I've seen sellers who intentionally obscure the label on Model M's, making it difficult to tell, or report the 'date of birth' for the keyboard to be the copyright date (1984) for the design of the Model M. Some of this is just seller ignorance, and some of it is willful. eBay has a 'ask a question about this item' feature -- use it. I've had one seller showing a keyboard with a VERY blurry photo of IBM Model M sticker... asked if he could take a less blurry photo. He replied: "No."

 )

Caveat emptor!

[khaangaaroo]

did you end up getting any resolution to this?

[xyril]

Thats InDIaN for You!! . had the same prob. effing

[fohat.digs]

Last year I bought a lot of 3 keyboards on ebay listed as something like "3 vintage clicky keyboards in excellent condition" and I could tell from the poor photo that one was a Model M and one was a Northgate Omnikey.

I paid over $100 plus shipping, and when I received them they were filthy and reeked of cigarette smoke. The Model M was a 71G with no audible click, if she had pressed a key to check, the Northgate had 4-5 dead keys, and the other one was a well-worn but working Chicony 5181 (the only one of the 3 that nearly matched the description).

The woman flamed me furiously and said, among other things, "what, am I supposed to do, press every button to see if they work?"

Then she told me that she was right and would not sink to argue with me further because she was "a woman" whatever honor that is supposed to be.

All that being said, she was obviously totally ignorant about keyboards and may have imagined that "excellent condition" meant "not visibly broken" and that I was just being too picky.

That is the risk you take on ebay, if all 3 had been just as described, I would have been delighted with my bargain.

PS - I cleaned the boards and listed them accurately on ebay, and managed to get almost half of my money back.

[Findecanor]

Yes, 'clicky' is a subjective term, but likely the seller knew precisely what they were doing by placing the word 'clicky' in the description.

No, "clicky" is not a subjective term. It is a distinct feature of some keyboard switches. The term is used by
respected keyboard manufacturers such as Cherry, Alps, Unicomp, Matias, etc.
A "click" manifests itself in a "click" sound that coincides with tactile response and the activation of the keyboard switch.

I see that you don't have many posts here, and are looking for a Model M. Once you have one, you will know the difference.

Some sellers have confused clickiness with the sound that occurs when you bottom out and there is no dampening. That is fine, that is just ignorance. However, I have seen other sellers on eBay sell keyboards that I know are mushy rubber domes, where they can not claim ignorance.

If enough negative feedback is left, eventually people will stop buying.

Many of these sellers sell a whole lot of other stuff, for which they get positive feedback. Once they have enough number of positive sales, one person giving negative feedback is like peeing in the ocean to their reputation.

And yet, the information is out there about keyboards. If the product images show a label, research the hell out of it.

Not always. There are many good vintage keyboards out there that are not well known.

There is one clicky keyboard that I bought on an auction site. The brand was unusual and a Google search for the brand resulted in no hits at all. It was new in box, with product leaflet, but there was no name of the manufacturer, no model number and no FCC ID anywhere - not on the box, the label, keyboard, not even inside the keyboard anywhere. I suspect that it was made by Chicony in Taiwan, but I can't tell for certain.
I bought it because the seller was cooperative, told me that it was clicky and sent me a picture of a key with the key cap off revealing something that looked like Cherry MX.

[Krogenar]

Yes, 'clicky' is a subjective term, but likely the seller knew precisely what they were doing by placing the word 'clicky' in the description.

No, "clicky" is not a subjective term. It is a distinct feature of some keyboard switches. The term is used by
respected keyboard manufacturers such as Cherry, Alps, Unicomp, Matias, etc.
A "click" manifests itself in a "click" sound that coincides with tactile response and the activation of the keyboard switch.

"Clicky" as a word, can mean a lot of things -- to this specific community it is far more specific and meaningful. My point is that some of these sellers are probably just scanning similar listings and noticing that the word 'clicky' is prominent and then tag the term onto the keyboard they're selling. They don't know what the word really means to us. Some might be motivated by malice, but I think most of the time it has to be ignorance.

If enough negative feedback is left, eventually people will stop buying.

Many of these sellers sell a whole lot of other stuff, for which they get positive feedback. Once they have enough number of positive sales, one person giving negative feedback is like peeing in the ocean to their reputation.

How far of a backlog does eBay keep on feedback comments? If they keep all the comments, then at least there would be some record of a bad transaction, right?

And yet, the information is out there about keyboards. If the product images show a label, research the hell out of it.

Not always. There are many good vintage keyboards out there that are not well known.

That's true -- but if I can't find any information about a keyboard, that doesn't make me less cautious about buying it -- it makes me more cautious. My point was just to do your due diligence before buying a product.

There is one clicky keyboard that I bought on an auction site. The brand was unusual and a Google search for the brand resulted in no hits at all. It was new in box, with product leaflet, but there was no name of the manufacturer, no model number and no FCC ID anywhere - not on the box, the label, keyboard, not even inside the keyboard anywhere. I suspect that it was made by Chicony in Taiwan, but I can't tell for certain.

Awesome! Did you get it for a good price? I imagine that if the seller cannot research the keyboard they wouldn't know necessarily know how to price it.

I bought it because the seller was cooperative, told me that it was clicky and sent me a picture of a key with the key cap off revealing something that looked like Cherry MX.

Due diligence!