Author Topic: Do we really need 5G? EVER?  (Read 2126 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« on: Sun, 07 August 2022, 16:32:16 »
Let's say you want to bitstream full 1080p bluray quality, that's 40mbit ~ 5 megabyte/s, well within current 4G.

Even 4k bluray only runs ~110mbit peak. ~14 megabyte/s

What exactly does someone do with even more wireless bandwidth?

someone's gon' wirelessly ftp his entire desktop library ?



Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 07 August 2022, 22:46:51 »
Wireless means that the bandwidth is shared with other users and is susceptible to interference from geography, houses, trees and whatever.

5G was never about giving the users more convenience. It is used as an excuse to shut off wired broadband to people, because a more expensive (=more profitable) connection that satisfies the definition of "broadband" is available.

Then that regular 5G and the ultra-fast are two different things and the ultra-fast requires many many towers very close together, which can only happen in cities and never ever in the rural areas where the telcos wants to discontinue wired broadband is just a tiny tiny detail in their eyes that is often glossed over.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 07 August 2022, 22:59:49 »
discontinue wired broadband?

must be a rumor.

the power use to pipe 5g or any g a long distance with any decent coverage is significantly greater than wired. current implementation is like 3-5x electrical use as 4g towers.

they'd never recoup the cost running expensive new towers especially in low density areas.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 00:10:45 »
discontinue wired broadband?
Has happened over here. Telcos don't want to be bothered with the cost of maintaining infrastructure in rural areas that are less profitable.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 August 2022, 00:13:46 by Findecanor »
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 08:01:11 »
discontinue wired broadband?
Has happened over here.

Whoa! I trust physical cables so much more. There are far too many potential problems that can go far beyond weather.

And I rue the day when multiple communication satellites start going down.
Neoreactionarism is a pseudo-intellectual fascist movement that Musk and Peter Thiel have embraced.  One ideological plank to neoreactionarism is that the "liberal” media is in cahoots with — wait for it — American intelligence agencies and other political establishments to thwart the rule of the enlightened technocrat.  It is only the rise of a superior technocratic class who will crush the establishment and their middle managers and bring about true freedom to human beings.  And it looks like Musk is trying to bring about this political Nirvana at Twitter.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 10:22:49 »
What exactly does someone do with even more wireless bandwidth?
It's got nothing to do with bandwidth for you it's about bandwidth for all. Sort of.
As mentioned, it's shared. We continue to use more and more data and while broadband is pretty close to all we need for the future, more and more of our devices are wireless and that system isn't even close to what all we need. The ultimate goal, for who I'm not sure, is for EVERY device to have a dedicated connection, doesn't matter if if's net facing or not. This way all of your devices can talk to each other from anywhere. Your toaster can talk to your tv even if you loan it to someone across the country.

Why?
That's a good question. You can say it's the Jurassic park problem, they "spent so much time thinking they could do it, they forgot to ask if they should" but the truth is a but more obvious... Profits (because people are stupid enough to buy it) and data harvesting (which also leads to profits). Ignoring the fact that we're talking about a toaster and TV, we've already seen how bad IOT security is, I don't understand this desire to put everything online, much less with a unique IP. What could go wrong?


If you think that's stupid,
They want self driving cars to use 5g, in fact many claim that's all that holding up Tesla's self driving car (hahahah, no), they want 5g in them so they can talk and avoid each other. Honestly, there's no need for cars to use 5g for navigation, in fact that's one of the stupidest ideas... There's no failsafe that way (what if the system goes down?) and why does a car in California need to communicate with a car in New York? Why does it need a unique IP? A FAR better method would be a mesh network they create themselves as they get near, and, it's only able to help each other navigate. But that would require a standard and gov intervention and right now this whole thing is wild wild west so good luck with that. You would still need a data connection to update maps but that should be the end of it, but we know that's not even close to the end of it which is why they will reject a national mesh network standard, at least until we get a local outtage that causes a massive pileup.


Anyhow, as to  whether we need it? Yes.
Yes, while 5g is plenty fast for 4k streams as more pile on, well, just look at 4g, at one time that was really fast, now it's saturated. It's going to be 6g at least before we get to where we have anything close to  "enough". 5g is just a stepping stone to get there (and sort of a joke). And even that's only if no new high bandwidth tech comes along, which could because we're talking almost a decade before we see 6g.
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Offline granola bar enthusiast

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 10:58:04 »
 better

Offline ranoro

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 13:28:53 »
well from executing remote surgeries to telemedicine to upgrading self-driving cars to access live maps and traffic data faster, to advancing smart cities to monitor air quality and power consumption, and that of smart buildings, smart factories, virtual reality gaming and several other stuff, I’m pretty sure yes we need it

same argument could be made before - do we need 4g 3g etc? the answer is yes, technological progress naturally unlocks more powerful tech and that’s how we will advance as a society

personally I can’t wait to NOT spend 1h commuting, my car knows the way and can take me on his own at this point

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 15:12:27 »
executing remote surgeries to telemedicine to upgrading self-driving cars to access live maps and traffic data faster, to advancing smart cities to monitor air quality and power consumption, and that of smart buildings, smart factories, virtual reality gaming
I don't know you at all, so I can't tell if you are serious or attempting to be sarcastic.

Those words look like they are copied straight out of Huawei's marketing material. Yes, 5G was developed by Huawei.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 16:06:55 »

5G was developed by Huawei.

I thought that this was the original core fear of what it could do.
Neoreactionarism is a pseudo-intellectual fascist movement that Musk and Peter Thiel have embraced.  One ideological plank to neoreactionarism is that the "liberal” media is in cahoots with — wait for it — American intelligence agencies and other political establishments to thwart the rule of the enlightened technocrat.  It is only the rise of a superior technocratic class who will crush the establishment and their middle managers and bring about true freedom to human beings.  And it looks like Musk is trying to bring about this political Nirvana at Twitter.
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Offline lakeboredom

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 17:40:52 »
Anyone worried about the actual studies from scientists showing harm to biological life from 5g, 4g and other? The conspiracy theorists are really the perfect cover, to preventing people believing actual science.

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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 08 August 2022, 18:48:56 »
Tp4 is VERY worried about that..  if you get enough accesspoints together, you essentially have a 50-100 watt microwave.

Offline Coreda

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 09 August 2022, 00:01:48 »
There was a video showcasing a contact lens HUD display that communicated data via 5G to a necklace.

5G and a micro battery on your eyeballs sounds delightful

Offline atarione

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 09 August 2022, 00:44:44 »
5g is why you must only go outside if you are wearing a spaghetti strainer on your head and have wrapped yourself in foil...  it is also a very effective contraceptive.

When broadband 1st started being available people thought it would be "fast enough" ... but like roads if you build infrastructure traffic will come to use it.    Eventual 8K streaming or whatever?  who knows?? but if 5G exists something will come alone to use it.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 09 August 2022, 03:59:06 »
Tp4 is VERY worried about that..  if you get enough accesspoints together, you essentially have a 50-100 watt microwave.
That's certainly interesting. The faster type of 5G access points (the one that has super-high speeds) uses beam-forming to concentrate the radio beams to target individual phones.

I know that where I live, there is in practice no control of how many access points there can be in a neighbourhood. Their placements is not public information, but foreign powers probably know better than anyone where they are.
If you put too many together, you wouldn't even need them to operate out of spec (malfunction or hack) to together provide a dose of radiation exceeding safety limits.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 09 August 2022, 11:19:42 »
Good movie about this, Johnny Mnemonic (1995)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 10 August 2022, 03:42:00 »
Tp4 is VERY worried about that..  if you get enough accesspoints together, you essentially have a 50-100 watt microwave.
Read all of this because it gets worse before it gets better.


You're probably never going to be in line of sight of more than 3 towers and much like 5.8 wifi (which it basically is), almost everything blocks it. So while yes, it starts off very high wattage, it drops extremely fast. Plus, the closer you are to one tower, they further you are from others.


Frankly, you're more likely to get a 50 watt blast from a single tower than you are from 6, especially with 5g.
5g is going to nearly triple the wattage from each tower but the range of that tower (in the 5g spectrum) is a lot less less and that's before you add in obstructions and beam shaping. If you barely get a good 4 signal now, 5g will be worse.

But about that 50 watts...
You need to look at SAR (specific absorption rate) which is measured in watts per kiliogram, 4watts per Kilo (2.2pounds) is considered safe for a frequency in this range. A 150 pound person can handle a constant 272 watts safely. But again, almost everything blocks 5.8ghz and that's a constant measurement.


Beam forming is important here...
Is just a shaped directional antennae. An omni directional creates a donut shape around itself, directional creates a cone projecting out from it.  Beam forming acts like a stage spotlight or focused flashlight, you can aim it to cover a specific part of town with a specific shape, so like exactly 2 city blocks and nothing else around it. That's all it is. Like a spotlight it also needs to be mounted up and far enough away for the signal to fan out, which is why it needs such high power, it may have to project that beam a mile before it even starts to hit ground level. It also means, once you step out of that beam of coverage, your exposure drops to almost nothing, you can stand right next to it and get almost nothing.

Now remember where 5g is being installed.. towns and cities..  Places with tons to get in the way.
So unless you're standing out in the open, not moving around, with direct line of sight to the tower, in the beam, for hours at a time, day after day... I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.



Oh and that whole aircraft thing..
The F.A.A. has never upped the standards or made old planes conform to tighter narrow band radio frequencies. EVER. We have narrowed nearly all bands in order to fit more bands in, we completely ditched radio based TV, narrowed all radio station frequencies, compressed cell bands, while all of this time aircraft were left untouched. A new radio is a drop in the bucket for aircraft maintenance, especially if it's a one time thing and yet they just left them alone so some guy could keep using his vintage ultra wide band pre WW2 era radio at all airports... Ridiculous.

BTW, air traffic control can push 100k watts, care to guess the frequency range?
Stop being NIMBYs.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 30 August 2022, 09:29:20 »
Tp4 is VERY worried about that..  if you get enough accesspoints together, you essentially have a 50-100 watt microwave.
Read all of this because it gets worse before it gets better.


You're probably never going to be in line of sight of more than 3 towers and much like 5.8 wifi (which it basically is), almost everything blocks it. So while yes, it starts off very high wattage, it drops extremely fast. Plus, the closer you are to one tower, they further you are from others.


Frankly, you're more likely to get a 50 watt blast from a single tower than you are from 6, especially with 5g.
5g is going to nearly triple the wattage from each tower but the range of that tower (in the 5g spectrum) is a lot less less and that's before you add in obstructions and beam shaping. If you barely get a good 4 signal now, 5g will be worse.

But about that 50 watts...
You need to look at SAR (specific absorption rate) which is measured in watts per kiliogram, 4watts per Kilo (2.2pounds) is considered safe for a frequency in this range. A 150 pound person can handle a constant 272 watts safely. But again, almost everything blocks 5.8ghz and that's a constant measurement.


Beam forming is important here...
Is just a shaped directional antennae. An omni directional creates a donut shape around itself, directional creates a cone projecting out from it.  Beam forming acts like a stage spotlight or focused flashlight, you can aim it to cover a specific part of town with a specific shape, so like exactly 2 city blocks and nothing else around it. That's all it is. Like a spotlight it also needs to be mounted up and far enough away for the signal to fan out, which is why it needs such high power, it may have to project that beam a mile before it even starts to hit ground level. It also means, once you step out of that beam of coverage, your exposure drops to almost nothing, you can stand right next to it and get almost nothing.

Now remember where 5g is being installed.. towns and cities..  Places with tons to get in the way.
So unless you're standing out in the open, not moving around, with direct line of sight to the tower, in the beam, for hours at a time, day after day... I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.



Oh and that whole aircraft thing..
The F.A.A. has never upped the standards or made old planes conform to tighter narrow band radio frequencies. EVER. We have narrowed nearly all bands in order to fit more bands in, we completely ditched radio based TV, narrowed all radio station frequencies, compressed cell bands, while all of this time aircraft were left untouched. A new radio is a drop in the bucket for aircraft maintenance, especially if it's a one time thing and yet they just left them alone so some guy could keep using his vintage ultra wide band pre WW2 era radio at all airports... Ridiculous.

BTW, air traffic control can push 100k watts, care to guess the frequency range?
Stop being NIMBYs.

TP focused on communications wave, when those aren't really the ones you need to worry about - there's alot more radiation and waves passing through you that you need to worry about compared to radio waves. .

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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Do we really need 5G? EVER?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 04 September 2022, 17:15:17 »
This was interesting: 5G could mess with weather forecasting
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