60% Keyboard Help

[TeeBaginDragon]

Hi everyone!  I am considering getting at 60% board but am a little hesitant because lack of devoted arrow keys.  The reason for this is I tend to do a lot of work on the command line and having the arrow keys are nice instead of having to hit FN+ some key to get the arrow key.  Can anyone who has had similar experience shed any light on this?  Am I making this a bigger deal than it actually is?  Thanks!

[xtrafrood]

Well if you're interested there's the Leopold FC660, and the Varmilo VR68M. Both usually come with dye-sub PBT keycaps and have dedicated arrow keys. If you search for the Leopold you might even find the FC660 Topre version (elitekeyboards is probably cheaper). I can't speak from experience but those are the two keyboards I know of off the top of my head that might work for you.

[hasu]

If you don't use modifier cluster on right side poker x cursor keys will work for you. The layout is so clever. Poker 2 and 3 might support it too

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[TeeBaginDragon]

Well if you're interested there's the Leopold FC660, and the Varmilo VR68M. Both usually come with dye-sub PBT keycaps and have dedicated arrow keys. If you search for the Leopold you might even find the FC660 Topre version (elitekeyboards is probably cheaper). I can't speak from experience but those are the two keyboards I know of off the top of my head that might work for you.

Forgive me for the n00b question, just got into the mechanical keyboard game; how is the build quality in general on those two brands?  I've seen them around a lot especially on massdrop and they seem to be pretty cheap in price...

[TeeBaginDragon]

If you don't use modifier cluster on right side poker x cursor keys will work for you. The layout is so clever. Poker 2 and 3 might support it too

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Interesting, so do you just program it to be the arrows instead of the modifiers?

[xtrafrood]

Build quality is about the same for Leopold/Varmilo. I haven't seen a board from either of those two brands that ships with stock ABS. Lots of good reviews regarding the cases and plates too.

[TeeBaginDragon]

Build quality is about the same for Leopold/Varmilo. I haven't seen a board from either of those two brands that ships with stock ABS. Lots of good reviews regarding the cases and plates too.

Cool, thanks for the info!  Once last question, I see that you live in the US, would you happen to know anyone or some store that can change switches on a keyboard for a decent price?  If I go with one of those I wanna put some Zealios on it, see what all the rage is about lol

[xtrafrood]

Build quality is about the same for Leopold/Varmilo. I haven't seen a board from either of those two brands that ships with stock ABS. Lots of good reviews regarding the cases and plates too.

Cool, thanks for the info!  Once last question, I see that you live in the US, would you happen to know anyone or some store that can change switches on a keyboard for a decent price?  If I go with one of those I wanna put some Zealios on it, see what all the rage is about lol

I don't know of a place that does that sort of thing, but there are members of the Geekhack community that offer soldering services that might swap some switches for you. From what I've read, Zealios are lubed up before they leave the factory. They're supposedly some of the smoothest switches available.

[TeeBaginDragon]

Build quality is about the same for Leopold/Varmilo. I haven't seen a board from either of those two brands that ships with stock ABS. Lots of good reviews regarding the cases and plates too.

Cool, thanks for the info!  Once last question, I see that you live in the US, would you happen to know anyone or some store that can change switches on a keyboard for a decent price?  If I go with one of those I wanna put some Zealios on it, see what all the rage is about lol

I don't know of a place that does that sort of thing, but there are members of the Geekhack community that offer soldering services that might swap some switches for you. From what I've read, Zealios are lubed up before they leave the factory. They're supposedly some of the smoothest switches available.

Sounds good, I'll take harder look around and see if I can't find someone in the US.  Already put in for the R3 zealios, can't wait to give them a try! 

[rowdy]

So you've ruled out the HHKB?

Did you know that the HHKB JP layout does have dedicated arrow keys?

[TeeBaginDragon]

So you've ruled out the HHKB?

Did you know that the HHKB JP layout does have dedicated arrow keys?

I did take a quick look at those but if I'm not mistaken none of the hhkbs have MX switches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard)?  I think that might be the biggest hurdle to me buying one cause everything else looks good...

[heavyfingers]

Hey, I'm new to mechanical keyboards as well and I recently went through the process of choosing a 60% board. I basically "live" in a *nix terminal and play no games. This was my short-list:

HHKB Pro 2
Ducky Mini
Vortex Pok3r
Ultimate Hacking Keyboard
KBParadise V60

I ultimately chose the Pok3r ("poker 3") with HHKB Pro 2 and Ducky Mini as runners up.

First, I decided against the KBParadise V60 because it felt more of a "value" option and getting great value wasn't my objective. I also eliminated the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard simply because it wasn't out yet.

The second place runner up for me was the HHKB Pro 2. This is possibly the best reviewed 60% board I've seen. However I'm just not a fan of the key placement. First, I get the whole [Del] and [Control] thing, but it's not for me. I'm so used to the [Control] key being in the bottom left corner for shortcuts that it just isn't that attractive to have it above the left [Shift], even if that was the original way it was done. I also find the [FN] key on this board way to the right of the right [Shift] too awkward to reach, especially in combination with other keys under my right hand. There are other things (moving the tilde) which are just very non-standard in today's world. It's just not natural to me. But again, this is all personal preference. The vast majority of people have a different opinion than me.

The first place runner up was the Ducky Mini. This is a beefy board with a great layout and a great configuration. It also lights up with all types of cool effects if you're into that. It also has mouse-movement built into the keyboard which is interesting. This just seems like a great work-horse board that was well thought out.

My winner was the Vortex Pok3r. The thing I love most about this board is the layout of the secondary function keys (the keys you have to move your hands for on full keyboards). For example, the arrow keys are placed under I, J, K, L which is sort of the opposite of W, A, S, D. (It's also not like Vim.) While this seems weird at first glace, once you realize you can flip switch 3 on the board and re-map [Caps Lock] to [FN] it really makes sense. On the Pok3r, all the secondary function keys are on the right side. When you press down the remapped [Caps Lock] (which is re-mapped to [FN]), with your left hand, you have access to all the secondary function keys at or near the home-row of your right hand. I picked up this system in about 5 minutes and it feels extremely natural. It's as natural as using [Shift] to capitalize a letter. Other than the great key layout, the Pok3r had the most advanced ability I've seen to program macros (the functionality is fully contained in the keyboard so no software required on your system for macros). I've only started messing with the macro programming but so far so good. It also comes standard with nice PBT keycaps (unless you want a LED-lit version), and it has a really heavy standard case which other reviews have said is an expensive upgrade on other boards.

Anyway, my advice is to skim through the PDF manuals (which are all online) and take a close look at how things are laid out. That can give you a good idea of what it would be like to use different products.

Again, I'm new to the world of mechanical keyboards so please take my advice with a grain of salt. There are much more knowledgeable people here and I may be wrong on some things. Regardless, I hope this gives you some other options to consider.

[chryos1029]

I'm used to a Full size or TKL board for a long time.
Recently, I made a decision on changing to a 60% board.
The only thing that bothers me is only the lack of arrow keys (mostly use for navigating web page and videos), but trust me and give it some time and you will definitely get used to the fn+arrow keys

[Bucake]

another option would be a KBT pure pro (dedicated arrow keys).
or a HHKB (fn-layer), especially with hasu's controller (programmable).

[decker]

I don't know how easy they are to find, but 65% keyboards have arrow keys, for one extra column.

[Jibsey]

Here's a bunch of 65% boards. But grabbing one would be more difficult in comparison to a 60%. I also love a dedicated Delete key.
 I guess there's also 75% to consider.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4ciatx/guide_65_keyboards_what_they_are_and_where_to_get/

[decker]

Here's a bunch of 65% boards. But grabbing one would be more difficult in comparison to a 60%. I also love a dedicated Delete key.
 I guess there's also 75% to consider.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4ciatx/guide_65_keyboards_what_they_are_and_where_to_get/

That's a nice list.
I don't get what people like in http://i.imgur.com/k5BinZc.jpg, over http://i.imgur.com/61mj3Gn.jpg layout wise...

[zeltner]

I built a 60% board a few months ago. I was also skeptical about the lack of arrow keys as I use these quite a bit. I played around with a few different function layer layouts and ended up ultimately going with something similar to this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

What I really liked about this was that I could get to the arrow keys with one hand only so that I could still easily use my other hand for modifier keys. Once I got used to it, it actually feels faster than using a dedicated arrow cluster since my hand does not need to move as far from the home row.

[TeeBaginDragon]

Hey, I'm new to mechanical keyboards as well and I recently went through the process of choosing a 60% board. I basically "live" in a *nix terminal and play no games. This was my short-list:

HHKB Pro 2
Ducky Mini
Vortex Pok3r
Ultimate Hacking Keyboard
KBParadise V60

I ultimately chose the Pok3r ("poker 3") with HHKB Pro 2 and Ducky Mini as runners up.

First, I decided against the KBParadise V60 because it felt more of a "value" option and getting great value wasn't my objective. I also eliminated the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard simply because it wasn't out yet.

The second place runner up for me was the HHKB Pro 2. This is possibly the best reviewed 60% board I've seen. However I'm just not a fan of the key placement. First, I get the whole [Del] and [Control] thing, but it's not for me. I'm so used to the [Control] key being in the bottom left corner for shortcuts that it just isn't that attractive to have it above the left [Shift], even if that was the original way it was done. I also find the [FN] key on this board way to the right of the right [Shift] too awkward to reach, especially in combination with other keys under my right hand. There are other things (moving the tilde) which are just very non-standard in today's world. It's just not natural to me. But again, this is all personal preference. The vast majority of people have a different opinion than me.

The first place runner up was the Ducky Mini. This is a beefy board with a great layout and a great configuration. It also lights up with all types of cool effects if you're into that. It also has mouse-movement built into the keyboard which is interesting. This just seems like a great work-horse board that was well thought out.

My winner was the Vortex Pok3r. The thing I love most about this board is the layout of the secondary function keys (the keys you have to move your hands for on full keyboards). For example, the arrow keys are placed under I, J, K, L which is sort of the opposite of W, A, S, D. (It's also not like Vim.) While this seems weird at first glace, once you realize you can flip switch 3 on the board and re-map [Caps Lock] to [FN] it really makes sense. On the Pok3r, all the secondary function keys are on the right side. When you press down the remapped [Caps Lock] (which is re-mapped to [FN]), with your left hand, you have access to all the secondary function keys at or near the home-row of your right hand. I picked up this system in about 5 minutes and it feels extremely natural. It's as natural as using [Shift] to capitalize a letter. Other than the great key layout, the Pok3r had the most advanced ability I've seen to program macros (the functionality is fully contained in the keyboard so no software required on your system for macros). I've only started messing with the macro programming but so far so good. It also comes standard with nice PBT keycaps (unless you want a LED-lit version), and it has a really heavy standard case which other reviews have said is an expensive upgrade on other boards.

Anyway, my advice is to skim through the PDF manuals (which are all online) and take a close look at how things are laid out. That can give you a good idea of what it would be like to use different products.

Again, I'm new to the world of mechanical keyboards so please take my advice with a grain of salt. There are much more knowledgeable people here and I may be wrong on some things. Regardless, I hope this gives you some other options to consider.

This is very useful for me, thank you for the information!  Quick question, you mention programming the keys, is this something that can be done easily?  If so is it possible to program the arrow keys like the vim hjkl?

[TeeBaginDragon]

another option would be a KBT pure pro (dedicated arrow keys).
or a HHKB (fn-layer), especially with hasu's controller (programmable).

It seems the KBT has been discontinued?   Did KBT ever release a newer generation?  Sorry for the n00b question but what is the hasu controller?

Here's a bunch of 65% boards. But grabbing one would be more difficult in comparison to a 60%. I also love a dedicated Delete key.
 I guess there's also 75% to consider.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/4ciatx/guide_65_keyboards_what_they_are_and_where_to_get/

Thanks for the list!  It is quite comprehensive, I'll definitely take a look over it later tonight!

I'm used to a Full size or TKL board for a long time.
Recently, I made a decision on changing to a 60% board.
The only thing that bothers me is only the lack of arrow keys (mostly use for navigating web page and videos), but trust me and give it some time and you will definitely get used to the fn+arrow keys

Interesting, I use a TKL right now as well...how long did it take you to adjust to the new layout?

I built a 60% board a few months ago. I was also skeptical about the lack of arrow keys as I use these quite a bit. I played around with a few different function layer layouts and ended up ultimately going with something similar to this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.0

What I really liked about this was that I could get to the arrow keys with one hand only so that I could still easily use my other hand for modifier keys. Once I got used to it, it actually feels faster than using a dedicated arrow cluster since my hand does not need to move as far from the home row.

Interesting...I want to build my own but have no soldering experience nor do I know anyone who does.  Was it expensive to build your own?

[zeltner]

Soldering was not too bad. I had not soldered anything in about 10 years but it was pretty easy to pick it up.

Price for a DIY can vary. I used this kit which starts around $100 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/sentraq-60-diy-keyboard-kit . I used zealio switches and a different case though and ended up spending closer to $350 by the time it was all done.

[eksuen]

Hey, I'm new to mechanical keyboards as well and I recently went through the process of choosing a 60% board. I basically "live" in a *nix terminal and play no games. This was my short-list:

HHKB Pro 2
Ducky Mini
Vortex Pok3r
Ultimate Hacking Keyboard
KBParadise V60

I ultimately chose the Pok3r ("poker 3") with HHKB Pro 2 and Ducky Mini as runners up.

First, I decided against the KBParadise V60 because it felt more of a "value" option and getting great value wasn't my objective. I also eliminated the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard simply because it wasn't out yet.

The second place runner up for me was the HHKB Pro 2. This is possibly the best reviewed 60% board I've seen. However I'm just not a fan of the key placement. First, I get the whole [Del] and [Control] thing, but it's not for me. I'm so used to the [Control] key being in the bottom left corner for shortcuts that it just isn't that attractive to have it above the left [Shift], even if that was the original way it was done. I also find the [FN] key on this board way to the right of the right [Shift] too awkward to reach, especially in combination with other keys under my right hand. There are other things (moving the tilde) which are just very non-standard in today's world. It's just not natural to me. But again, this is all personal preference. The vast majority of people have a different opinion than me.

The first place runner up was the Ducky Mini. This is a beefy board with a great layout and a great configuration. It also lights up with all types of cool effects if you're into that. It also has mouse-movement built into the keyboard which is interesting. This just seems like a great work-horse board that was well thought out.

My winner was the Vortex Pok3r. The thing I love most about this board is the layout of the secondary function keys (the keys you have to move your hands for on full keyboards). For example, the arrow keys are placed under I, J, K, L which is sort of the opposite of W, A, S, D. (It's also not like Vim.) While this seems weird at first glace, once you realize you can flip switch 3 on the board and re-map [Caps Lock] to [FN] it really makes sense. On the Pok3r, all the secondary function keys are on the right side. When you press down the remapped [Caps Lock] (which is re-mapped to [FN]), with your left hand, you have access to all the secondary function keys at or near the home-row of your right hand. I picked up this system in about 5 minutes and it feels extremely natural. It's as natural as using [Shift] to capitalize a letter. Other than the great key layout, the Pok3r had the most advanced ability I've seen to program macros (the functionality is fully contained in the keyboard so no software required on your system for macros). I've only started messing with the macro programming but so far so good. It also comes standard with nice PBT keycaps (unless you want a LED-lit version), and it has a really heavy standard case which other reviews have said is an expensive upgrade on other boards.

Anyway, my advice is to skim through the PDF manuals (which are all online) and take a close look at how things are laid out. That can give you a good idea of what it would be like to use different products.

Again, I'm new to the world of mechanical keyboards so please take my advice with a grain of salt. There are much more knowledgeable people here and I may be wrong on some things. Regardless, I hope this gives you some other options to consider.

This is very useful for me, thank you for the information!  Quick question, you mention programming the keys, is this something that can be done easily?  If so is it possible to program the arrow keys like the vim hjkl?

If I'm not mistaken, for the Pok3r, the location of the Fn key on the bottom right hand side in the default layer cannot be changed. For me, that was a deal-breaker. I prefer making the right Alt into a Fn key. I also prefer the Fn-layer arrow keys to be (P L ; ' ) instead of (I J K L). It feels more natural to me.

I don't think you'll have an issue getting used to a 60% keyboard in general terms. I think the most important aspect is to find a layout you like.

One of the issues I have is that I get used to the Fn layer on one 60%, and it'll be different on another. My guess is that like many of us, you will eventually have a pretty good idea of what you prefer in a 60% and you'll get a DIY/custom 60% to program yourself.

[heavyfingers]

If I'm not mistaken, for the Pok3r, the location of the Fn key on the bottom right hand side in the default layer cannot be changed.

[Caps Lock] remaps to be the [FN] key by flipping switch 3 on the back of the board. So you hold down [Caps Lock] with your left hand and whatever you want with your right. It's very natural to me (just like [Shift] to capitalize a letter). HHKB Pro2 actually has 2 [FN] keys, one to the right of right [Shift] and the other in the bottom left corner so you get one under each hand on both boards (something I didn't mention before). In general, I thinks it's nice and useful to have [FN] on both sides.

I prefer making the right Alt into a Fn key.

Personally, I disagree on this if the modified keys are on the right side (which is what I've mainly seen). I say this mainly just because I think it's most natural to hold down [FN] with one hand and press the other key with your other hand. If you're using a key on the right side as [FN] and pressing another key on the right side at the same time, there is a chance you will have to remove your hand from the home row (or position your hand in an awkward way). I prefer one finger off the home row (of each hand) at a time. I know with practice any key combo becomes natural though, no matter where your hands end up (I say this remembering Alt+Ctrl+Del from my Windows days).

I also prefer the Fn-layer arrow keys to be (P L ; ' ) instead of (I J K L). It feels more natural to me.

Again, personal preference, but as a programmer my right pinky gets a big workout pressing [, {, ], }, ;, :, ", ', /, among others. Using P, L, ;, and ' for arrows just adds even more work for that weak, little finger. I like I, J, K, L because my right pinky gets a break. For people who aren't doing programming, this may not be a big deal.

[heavyfingers]

This is very useful for me, thank you for the information!  Quick question, you mention programming the keys, is this something that can be done easily?  If so is it possible to program the arrow keys like the vim hjkl?

I haven't had a chance to try it yet but I will try it by the end of this week. (I'm replacing my Cherry MX Blue Pok3r with one that has Cherry MX Clears -- the new one should come today.)

[eksuen]

If I'm not mistaken, for the Pok3r, the location of the Fn key on the bottom right hand side in the default layer cannot be changed.

[Caps Lock] remaps to be the [FN] key by flipping switch 3 on the back of the board. So you hold down [Caps Lock] with your left hand and whatever you want with your right. It's very natural to me (just like [Shift] to capitalize a letter). HHKB Pro2 actually has 2 [FN] keys, one to the right of right [Shift] and the other in the bottom left corner so you get one under each hand on both boards.

I prefer making the right Alt into a Fn key.

Personally, I disagree on this if the modified keys are on the right side (which is what I've mainly seen). Mainly just because I think it's most natural to hold down [FN] with one hand and press the other key with your other hand. If you're using a key on the right side as [FN] and pressing another key on the right side at the same time, there is a chance you will have to remove your hand from the home row (or position your hand in an awkward way). I prefer one finger off the home row (of each hand) at a time.

I also prefer the Fn-layer arrow keys to be (P L ; ' ) instead of (I J K L). It feels more natural to me.

Again, personal preference, but as a programmer my right pinky gets a big workout pressing [, {, ], }, ;, :, ", ', /, among others. Using P, L, ;, and ' for arrows just adds even more work for that weak, little finger. I like I, J, K, L because my right pinky gets a break. For people who aren't doing programming, this may not be a big deal.

Yeah, I agree, it's all personal preference, which IMO is incredibly important when it comes to picking out a 60%. When I was looking to get my first 60%, I considered a Poker II because people seemed to like them for programmability, but the FN placement was just not for me.

I also swap my Caps Lock to FN (Caps Lock then becomes FN + Tab), but I like being able to use the arrow keys with one hand. I hold down FN (right Alt position) with my thumb and use my index, middle, and ring fingers to access the (P L ; ') arrow keys. It feels right for me.

[TeeBaginDragon]

Soldering was not too bad. I had not soldered anything in about 10 years but it was pretty easy to pick it up.

Price for a DIY can vary. I used this kit which starts around $100 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/sentraq-60-diy-keyboard-kit . I used zealio switches and a different case though and ended up spending closer to $350 by the time it was all done.

Dang, $350...Definitely can't swing that right now lol if anything it seems like there are some members here who can swap switches so I'll probably get a 60% then swap out the switches for Zealios...Besides programming the board yourself, do you see any other advantages of building your own board?

[TeeBaginDragon]

Hey, I'm new to mechanical keyboards as well and I recently went through the process of choosing a 60% board. I basically "live" in a *nix terminal and play no games. This was my short-list:

HHKB Pro 2
Ducky Mini
Vortex Pok3r
Ultimate Hacking Keyboard
KBParadise V60

I ultimately chose the Pok3r ("poker 3") with HHKB Pro 2 and Ducky Mini as runners up.

First, I decided against the KBParadise V60 because it felt more of a "value" option and getting great value wasn't my objective. I also eliminated the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard simply because it wasn't out yet.

The second place runner up for me was the HHKB Pro 2. This is possibly the best reviewed 60% board I've seen. However I'm just not a fan of the key placement. First, I get the whole [Del] and [Control] thing, but it's not for me. I'm so used to the [Control] key being in the bottom left corner for shortcuts that it just isn't that attractive to have it above the left [Shift], even if that was the original way it was done. I also find the [FN] key on this board way to the right of the right [Shift] too awkward to reach, especially in combination with other keys under my right hand. There are other things (moving the tilde) which are just very non-standard in today's world. It's just not natural to me. But again, this is all personal preference. The vast majority of people have a different opinion than me.

The first place runner up was the Ducky Mini. This is a beefy board with a great layout and a great configuration. It also lights up with all types of cool effects if you're into that. It also has mouse-movement built into the keyboard which is interesting. This just seems like a great work-horse board that was well thought out.

My winner was the Vortex Pok3r. The thing I love most about this board is the layout of the secondary function keys (the keys you have to move your hands for on full keyboards). For example, the arrow keys are placed under I, J, K, L which is sort of the opposite of W, A, S, D. (It's also not like Vim.) While this seems weird at first glace, once you realize you can flip switch 3 on the board and re-map [Caps Lock] to [FN] it really makes sense. On the Pok3r, all the secondary function keys are on the right side. When you press down the remapped [Caps Lock] (which is re-mapped to [FN]), with your left hand, you have access to all the secondary function keys at or near the home-row of your right hand. I picked up this system in about 5 minutes and it feels extremely natural. It's as natural as using [Shift] to capitalize a letter. Other than the great key layout, the Pok3r had the most advanced ability I've seen to program macros (the functionality is fully contained in the keyboard so no software required on your system for macros). I've only started messing with the macro programming but so far so good. It also comes standard with nice PBT keycaps (unless you want a LED-lit version), and it has a really heavy standard case which other reviews have said is an expensive upgrade on other boards.

Anyway, my advice is to skim through the PDF manuals (which are all online) and take a close look at how things are laid out. That can give you a good idea of what it would be like to use different products.

Again, I'm new to the world of mechanical keyboards so please take my advice with a grain of salt. There are much more knowledgeable people here and I may be wrong on some things. Regardless, I hope this gives you some other options to consider.

This is very useful for me, thank you for the information!  Quick question, you mention programming the keys, is this something that can be done easily?  If so is it possible to program the arrow keys like the vim hjkl?

If I'm not mistaken, for the Pok3r, the location of the Fn key on the bottom right hand side in the default layer cannot be changed. For me, that was a deal-breaker. I prefer making the right Alt into a Fn key. I also prefer the Fn-layer arrow keys to be (P L ; ' ) instead of (I J K L). It feels more natural to me.

I don't think you'll have an issue getting used to a 60% keyboard in general terms. I think the most important aspect is to find a layout you like.

One of the issues I have is that I get used to the Fn layer on one 60%, and it'll be different on another. My guess is that like many of us, you will eventually have a pretty good idea of what you prefer in a 60% and you'll get a DIY/custom 60% to program yourself.

Thanks for the info about the FN key!  I will definitely take that into consideration.  I'm scared to make my own keyboard (cost and lack of soldering skils) lol  ) So if I did my reading correctly, I would be programming the PBC?  That being the case, do you have any  recommendations for a budget PBC?

[TeeBaginDragon]

This is very useful for me, thank you for the information!  Quick question, you mention programming the keys, is this something that can be done easily?  If so is it possible to program the arrow keys like the vim hjkl?

I haven't had a chance to try it yet but I will try it by the end of this week. (I'm replacing my Cherry MX Blue Pok3r with one that has Cherry MX Clears -- the new one should come today.)

Congrats on the new keyboard, I look forward to hearing how things go!

[eksuen]

Thanks for the info about the FN key!  I will definitely take that into consideration.  I'm scared to make my own keyboard (cost and lack of soldering skils) lol  ) So if I did my reading correctly, I would be programming the PBC?  That being the case, do you have any  recommendations for a budget PBC?

I understand the hesitation, but soldering is actually pretty easy to pick up. Another option is to source the parts and pay someone to assemble it for you.

Yes, you would be programming the PCB. Most of the firmware I've used were pretty intuitive, but there are plenty of guides on this forum for some more complex ones, or the ones translated from foreign languages. If you look/wait around GeekHack, you'll see various group buys for PCBs, parts, and the like. For just the PCB with components (resistors, diodes, SMD LEDs, controller parts) presoldered, you could get one for around $40-60 USD. There are outlets to get one immediately instead of waiting for a group buy (http://winkeyless.kr/product/b-face-x2-pcb/ for example), but it probably won't be considered a budget-friendly option. The cheapest DIY kits I've seen are the Sentraq S-60X and Infinity Keyboard, with PCB + plate + switches+ stabilizers + case for about $100 USD (not including tax and shipping). Unfortunately, both of those went through buys recently, so you may have to wait a while for another opportunity (or try to find someone selling their kit).

[TeeBaginDragon]

Thanks for the info about the FN key!  I will definitely take that into consideration.  I'm scared to make my own keyboard (cost and lack of soldering skils) lol  ) So if I did my reading correctly, I would be programming the PBC?  That being the case, do you have any  recommendations for a budget PBC?

I understand the hesitation, but soldering is actually pretty easy to pick up. Another option is to source the parts and pay someone to assemble it for you.

Yes, you would be programming the PCB. Most of the firmware I've used were pretty intuitive, but there are plenty of guides on this forum for some more complex ones, or the ones translated from foreign languages. If you look/wait around GeekHack, you'll see various group buys for PCBs, parts, and the like. For just the PCB with components (resistors, diodes, SMD LEDs, controller parts) presoldered, you could get one for around $40-60 USD. There are outlets to get one immediately instead of waiting for a group buy (http://winkeyless.kr/product/b-face-x2-pcb/ for example), but it probably won't be considered a budget-friendly option. The cheapest DIY kits I've seen are the Sentraq S-60X and Infinity Keyboard, with PCB + plate + switches+ stabilizers + case for about $100 USD (not including tax and shipping). Unfortunately, both of those went through buys recently, so you may have to wait a while for another opportunity (or try to find someone selling their kit).

As much as I would love to learn to solder myself, I don't have the time, so I guess someone will have to assemble for me  Thank you for all of that information, I've quickly learned that I need to reach the end game ASAP otherwise I'm gonna go broke lol so I gotta judge that between pre-assembled 60% boards. 

[TeeBaginDragon]

Also thank you all for your input and advice!  I now have a clearer picture in my head but also a lot more to consider....lol 

[tacnificent]

Are you set on a 60%? How about a slightly larger one? There are 65-75% boards that have dedicated cursor and nav keys without having the layers.

65%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/the-whitefox-keyboard

68%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-va68m-mechanical-keyboard

75%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/keycool-hero-84

[xtrafrood]

Are you set on a 60%? How about a slightly larger one? There are 65-75% boards that have dedicated cursor and nav keys without having the layers.

65%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/the-whitefox-keyboard

68%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-va68m-mechanical-keyboard

75%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/keycool-hero-84

Varmilo VA68M is available thru mechanicalkeyboards.com if you miss the Massdrop drop.

Massdrop Guest Mode Links..

Whitefox
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/the-whitefox-keyboard?mode=guest_open

Varmilo VA68M
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-va68m-mechanical-keyboard?mode=guest_open

Keycool84 (sometimes available thru mechanicalkeyboards.com as well)
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/keycool-hero-84?mode=guest_open

[Bucake]

It seems the KBT has been discontinued?   Did KBT ever release a newer generation?  Sorry for the n00b question but what is the hasu controller?

ah, sorry. the pure pro is a nice board, although a tad strange. there's also the KBT Race 2 (which is 75%) but that might've been discontinued as well.
you could be on the lookout for used ones or just for leftover stocks, but only if you think that it's exactly what you're looking for.

hasu controller: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047.0
if you have a hhkb, you can just take the controller out, and put a hasu controller in. poof, now it's fully programmable. it doesn't require any soldering or coding (unless you want very specific changes).

[TeeBaginDragon]

Are you set on a 60%? How about a slightly larger one? There are 65-75% boards that have dedicated cursor and nav keys without having the layers.

65%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/the-whitefox-keyboard

68%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/varmilo-va68m-mechanical-keyboard

75%
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/keycool-hero-84

Well I'm pretty set on 60% but the white fox is nice, I think it's an OCD thing, having the keyboard rectangle with no gaps lol 

It seems the KBT has been discontinued?   Did KBT ever release a newer generation?  Sorry for the n00b question but what is the hasu controller?

ah, sorry. the pure pro is a nice board, although a tad strange. there's also the KBT Race 2 (which is 75%) but that might've been discontinued as well.
you could be on the lookout for used ones or just for leftover stocks, but only if you think that it's exactly what you're looking for.

hasu controller: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047.0
if you have a hhkb, you can just take the controller out, and put a hasu controller in. poof, now it's fully programmable. it doesn't require any soldering or coding (unless you want very specific changes).

Interesting...so if I did my homework correct, the HHKB doesn't come with MX switches right?  Do you know if it would it be possible to replace the stock switches and put in MX? 

[mike52787]

why would you ever want to put mx in a hhkb? yeah, thats impossible. mx is really inferior to topre imo, but what do I know, I dont like any mx switches very much.                       

[Bucake]

oh, definitely not - you would be stuck with Topre. so if you want MX, you can write the HHKB off..

and in case you do want/find a Pure Pro, notice how the Z-row is shifted to the left a bit, compared to default. it's weird. and then there's the tiny backspace as well. hm. tiny right shift. yeah.
other than that, i think the keyboard is a wonderful 60% Cherry MX keyboard. a few Fn keys, programmable (although limited), solid build quality(!). sounds nice, feels good..
i have the non-backlit version and the PBT keycaps are quite thick and exceptionally resistant to wear.

[TeeBaginDragon]

why would you ever want to put mx in a hhkb? yeah, thats impossible. mx is really inferior to topre imo, but what do I know, I dont like any mx switches very much.                       

Its cause I started on cherry so all my caps and 3 artisans are MX... In your opinion, why do you like topre better?  I'm curious...

oh, definitely not - you would be stuck with Topre. so if you want MX, you can write the HHKB off..

and in case you do want/find a Pure Pro, notice how the Z-row is shifted to the left a bit, compared to default. it's weird. and then there's the tiny backspace as well. hm. tiny right shift. yeah.
other than that, i think the keyboard is a wonderful 60% Cherry MX keyboard. a few Fn keys, programmable (although limited), solid build quality(!). sounds nice, feels good..
i have the non-backlit version and the PBT keycaps are quite thick and exceptionally resistant to wear.

Oh woah, that totally slipped by me when I was looking at it... Thanks for the heads up! 

[mike52787]

Ive never personally tried topre, but Ive heard really good things about them. But I really dont like mx. In my experience, mx is scratchy, inconsistent and just doesnt feel as good as alps. My personal preferences are alps and buckling spring.

[Phenix]

In fact you can put Novatouch sliders in an HHKB (for mx compatibility).

But thats going to be expensive

[TeeBaginDragon]

Ive never personally tried topre, but Ive heard really good things about them. But I really dont like mx. In my experience, mx is scratchy, inconsistent and just doesnt feel as good as alps. My personal preferences are alps and buckling spring.

Ahh gotcha, I'll have to try those two out if I ever get the chance!

[xtrafrood]

In fact you can put Novatouch sliders in an HHKB (for mx compatibility).

But thats going to be expensive

And it won't have that signature HHKB or Realforce feeling from what I've read

[mike52787]

Ive never personally tried topre, but Ive heard really good things about them. But I really dont like mx. In my experience, mx is scratchy, inconsistent and just doesnt feel as good as alps. My personal preferences are alps and buckling spring.

Ahh gotcha, I'll have to try those two out if I ever get the chance!

I think you should try to get a kbparadise v60 if you want to try out alps/matias. Its a nice 60% board that comes with matias switches, which are the modern counterparts to alps. I personally prefer alps to matias, but you could solder alps switches into a v60 with minimal effort. For bs, You pretty much have to go fullsize. A model m is the cheapest choice for trying out bs, and if you really like it you can step up to a model f, Which is marginally better.

[Phenix]

I for myself rate an lubed+silenced novatouch over an hhkb/realforce (compared them at an meeting side by side)

you are absolutly right,
the feeling is different

[Phenix]

@mike which ALPS are your favorite?

[mike52787]

@mike which ALPS are your favorite?

From what I tried, I like my click modded skcl greens best. I really do like all of them though, I dont think alps made a bad switch in the skcl/skcm family.

[Phenix]

Ok. Was going to start with Blue Alps soon. Greens are second on my list

green click mod is done with white alps parts, or?

[mike52787]

Yeah, I used the click leaf and top housing from white alps and the spring, slider, bottom and switch plate from green alps. feels good man

[mike52787]

Ok. Was going to start with Blue Alps soon. Greens are second on my list

green click mod is done with white alps parts, or?

Blue alps is like starting at the top man, you dont get much better than blue alps. The only things that may be better are skcm lime or skcm brown. I havent tried any of those 3 switches though.

[Phenix]

Sounds interesting
will need to look into where I can aquire some boards (in Germany thats part of the fun/hunt.

btw: hunt begins once you have found the perfect switch, because one needs an case /tank**