Author Topic: Split keyboard with mechanical switches (Read 26348 times)

aplusbi · « **on:** Mon, 25 October 2010, 12:30:22 »

I have Kinesis freestyle and I love it except for the fact that it doesn't have mechanical switches. Does anyone know of a similar keyboard that has mechanical switches? I know the model M15 does, but I'm looking for something that is not as expensive and easier to find (plus I like having a mod/windows key).

Thanks!

keyb_gr · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:33:23 »

AFAIK just about all the mechanical switch ergos are expensive and/or hard to find, whether it's a G80-5xxx, M15, big Kinesis, Maltron or whatever. Consider writing to Kinesis - they'll certainly consider making a mechanical version of the Freestyle if there is sufficient demand. It looks like it's begging for some MX browns.

WhiteRice · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 25 October 2010, 14:37:35 »

No a bad mod idea, pricey...

Findecanor · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:34:01 »

All I know of are as old, rare and (most often) as expensive as the IBM/Lexmark M15.

Cherry G80-5000 (Cherry MX Brown), Northgate Omnikey Evolution (white ALPS), REVEAL (white ALPS) and Marquardt ergo (tactile Marquardt switches) have a standard layout.
The Kinesis Advantage (Cherry MX Brown) and Maltron (Cherry MX Brown or Black?) have Cherry MX Brown switches, but very unusual layouts.
Then there is the µTron, which has standard QWERTY layout except that the staggering and layout of the non-alphanumeric keys is unusual. It has Topre switches.

A lot has been written and discussed on this board already about all the keyboards that I have mentioned above.
My best tip for buying would be to set up on eBay a query notification (or whatever it is called these days) that will email you when new items show up that has certain keywords. Then, when you see a split ergonomic keyboard that you don't know about, go search here on Geekhack to read more about it.

Lanx · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 25 October 2010, 15:34:21 »

what is your definition of expensive? the freestyle is avg lets say 80$. A kinesis advantage is about 280$ and is non standard. (different arrangement from you basic 87 or 104 keyboard).
there's the northgate for 80bucks and if the truely ergonomic comes to fruition it'll be 200.

kill will · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 25 October 2010, 16:17:08 »

I would recommend the Northgate Evolution or another similar keyboard would be the KB 7001.

shrap · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 01:32:40 »

The Northgate Omnikey Evolution seems to be relatively easy to find. Northgate Keyboard Repair has several new with the touch pad.

It is strangely flat, though, for a split keyboard, and has some weird programming bugs. Even so, I have two.

lowpoly · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 05:23:33 »

The Apple Adjustable is cheap.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 05:24:00 »

I don't get the point of ergos with clicky/tactile ALPS to be honest. Those switches just aren't terribly "ergo" IME.

EDIT: The Apple Adjustable had tactile ALPS with rubber dampers (and resulting rubber-dome-y feel), didn't it? Since the biggest problem with black ALPS is bottoming out HARD, that might work.

itlnstln · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 06:42:16 »

The Evolution was better than the rubber dome alternatives. Cherry brows would be a lot better, though. I'm kinda interested in that new "Truly Ergonomic" 'board that's supposed to be coming out in December.

unicomp · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 07:01:57 »

Boards like the Kinesis Advantage and TEK are not 'split' in the same sense that the Kinesis Freestyle is. The Datahand and IBM Model M15 come to mind, however both are very expensive (and the Datahand is a rather non-standard board).

It would be interesting to see a completely wireless and 'fully' split board. By this I mean that the two halves communicate without wires between themselves and then one of the halves will communicate with the computer (or some other similar system), this would make quite a nice system if there was a good chair mount.

itlnstln · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 07:06:52 »

Good luck finding an M15, too, although they do show up on the 'Bay from time to time. If you want to go all-out, go with the Datahand. I think I might want to get one someday, but I work away from my desk a lot, so I think it might be weird switching back and forth between it and a regular keyboard that often.

zefrer · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 07:15:38 »

Everyone already mentioned all the current options. There's not many obviously.

The ones you can actually get rather easily:
Northgate Omnikey Evolution
Kinesis range
Maltron

The kinesis and maltron both have cherry brown switches, neither is cheap. The kinesis is a bit cheaper than the maltron.

It's worth noting that all the Nortgate evolutions for sale at Nortgate keyboard repair are refurbished, not new, as far as I know.

They are not split in the way the M15 is or the kinesis freestyle but your hands sit far apart. The only problem is that this distance is not adjustable so if it doesn't work for you due to physical dimensions then you're stuck. I suggest you try it out first if you can.

Personally I was looking for the same thing as you aplusbi but given the fact that the nortgate has alps and some firmware issues and the uTron or M15 are hard to obtain I went with a kinesis advantage.

Rajagra · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 07:57:37 »

So. Fact remains, if you want a mechanical board in two halves that is in production, your choices are Datahand or µTron, both of which are unnecessarily expensive and hard to come by.

Seems to me there is a gaping hole in the market.

zefrer · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 08:10:40 »

Quote from: Rajagra

Seems to me there is a gaping hole in the market.

My feelings also. I guess there's not much demand for mechanical split keyboards, despite the people that show up here looking for more info, myself included.

Lanx · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 10:25:07 »

Don't forget modding your own is an option too! total cost for me (95% in, was around 90$ but the time it took can't be measured.)

kps · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 11:30:57 »

Quote from: keyb_gr;238791

I don't get the point of ergos with clicky/tactile ALPS to be honest. Those switches just aren't terribly "ergo" IME.

It may be a matter of typing style. I like the clicky white/blue ones, except for the hard bottoming out; they feel "fast" to me.

Quote

EDIT: The Apple Adjustable had tactile ALPS with rubber dampers (and resulting rubber-dome-y feel), didn't it? Since the biggest problem with black ALPS is bottoming out HARD, that might work.

The Adjustable has mechanical ALPS switches, but they are different from the usual kinds. IMO they are unpleasantly mushy.

ricercar · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 12:12:01 »

Quote from: zefrer;238821

The kinesis and maltron both have cherry brown switches

This turns out not to be the case. While all my Kinesis have Cherry browns, all my Maltrons have Cherry blacks.

zefrer · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 21:48:10 »

Really? Huh, I was sure they said on their website they use browns. Thanks for the info ricer

didjamatic · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 22:10:06 »

Quote from: ripster;238845

I have one IBM Model F XT for research purposes.

Well, that's a start.

HaaTa · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 26 October 2010, 22:21:35 »

μTRON is another, sorta obtainable option. Though you're looking at just under the DataHand in terms of pricing (going through a broker).

aplusbi · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:07:19 »

Thanks for all the info! Unfortunately I wasn't clear enough in my post, I'm specifically looking for a keyboard that is split into two pieces like the freestyle. It seems as though no one makes a keyboard like this anymore however. As it stands I'm pretty okay with the freestyle, it's probably the best membrane keyboard I've ever used.

Superfluous Parentheses · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:16:37 »

Quote from: aplusbi;239490

Thanks for all the info! Unfortunately I wasn't clear enough in my post, I'm specifically looking for a keyboard that is split into two pieces like the freestyle. It seems as though no one makes a keyboard like this anymore however.

Except for the μTRON.

zefrer · « **Reply #23 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:30:20 »

If you want it new I think the uTron is the only one. At $500 or so it's not exactly obtainable IMO. I think it would have to be my last keyboard purchase if I were to go for one.

HaaTa · « **Reply #24 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 12:58:56 »

Well, remember it'll be $500 plus the shipping and broker fee.

Oh, and it's awesome. As for Windows keys, you can just remap the KANA keys to them as you don't need them in english.

One of the reasons it costs so much is that it comes with a special layout for Japanese built right into the keyboard (TRON layout, that's what the TRON key is for). And a bunch of other random Japanese stuff that you probably won't use, but it's not really something they can separate.

And you should notice that the keys are smaller than a typical keyboard, excellent for Japanese and us non-sausage fingered. Not so good otherwise.

aplusbi · « **Reply #25 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:05:19 »

I'm actually half-Japanese, although my mastery of the language is minimal at best. I don't know how I feel about the layout but it's worth looking into. At the very least I can try and track one down the next time I'm in Japan.

HaaTa · « **Reply #26 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:23:34 »

The layout, for normal typing, is nothing short of amazing. Tab, Enter, Space, and Backspace are in excellent locations. Just takes a bit of getting used to.

There's a reason why the μTRON was webwit's second favourite keyboard (last time I checked, DataHand being the first).

itlnstln · « **Reply #27 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:25:40 »

Quote from: HaaTa;239526

The layout, for normal typing, is nothing short of amazing. Tab, Enter, Space, and Backspace are in excellent locations. Just takes a bit of getting used to.

There's a reason why the μTRON was webwit's second favourite keyboard (last time I checked, DataHand being the first).

While he really liked the layout and design, he did say that the keyfeel was mediocre. Not completely relevant, but I did want to through that out there.

HaaTa · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 13:57:46 »

Yeah, I'd definitely put the key feel of the RealForce above it. But this is like comparing plate and pcb mounted cherry mx switches...

itlnstln · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 14:09:22 »

It must feel better than the HHKB, because the HHKB would be like ALPS vs. Cherry.

NamelessPFG · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 16:57:05 »

That μTRON looks interesting, but far too rich for my blood...and the non-US layout for punctuation would screw me over. (At least it uses Topre keyswitches.)

What I really want to see is a Maltron with Cherry MX Blues (I'd personally wish for buckling springs, but that just isn't going to happen), split up into three segments (left hand, right hand, and central numpad, obviously). Bonus points if full NKRO can be applied to each segment. That would probably work out even more expensive given how much Maltrons already cost, but it's something I'd like to try eventually.

Superfluous Parentheses · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 17:10:16 »

Quote from: NamelessPFG;239623

What I really want to see is a Maltron with Cherry MX Blues (I'd personally wish for buckling springs, but that just isn't going to happen), split up into three segments (left hand, right hand, and central numpad, obviously). Bonus points if full NKRO can be applied to each segment. That would probably work out even more expensive given how much Maltrons already cost, but it's something I'd like to try eventually.

Dunno what M15s go for these days, but it's the only option for split buckling spring boards that I know of - unless you're into modding. IIRC they even had optional numeric keypads - though that would make it even more expensive. Still, might be cheaper than a uTRON.

Oh, and you only get 2 KRO on standard Model Ms, so I would imagine the same is true for the M15.

NamelessPFG · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed, 27 October 2010, 21:22:06 »

Quote from: Superfluous Parentheses;239628

Dunno what M15s go for these days, but it's the only option for split buckling spring boards that I know of - unless you're into modding. IIRC they even had optional numeric keypads - though that would make it even more expensive. Still, might be cheaper than a uTRON.

Oh, and you only get 2 KRO on standard Model Ms, so I would imagine the same is true for the M15.

I'd totally go for an M15 if the eBay prices weren't beyond ludicrous.

I want buckling springs because they're what I know and am comfortable with, but maybe the Cherry MX Blues will work out better (read: more consistently in terms of click leaf tactility = exact actuation and key pressure/travel) than white XMs do. I just can't say for sure because I've never tried them.

But the main appeal of a Kinesis or Maltron board is that sculpted shape...it's just too intriguing to not try at least once. I really want to find if there is a better way to design a keyboard than what we have now.

zefrer · « **Reply #33 on:** Thu, 28 October 2010, 08:12:41 »

Quote

Still, might be cheaper than a uTRON.

I wish. The last few sold on ebay were around $1000..

Nameless, I'll be posting a review of the kinesis over the weekend probably.

MarkWilliamson · « **Reply #34 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 18:06:38 »

Nameless, the Maltrons already use Cherry MX Black (i.e. linear) switches, which (having acquired a mostly-functional Maltron a little while back) I'm actually liking better than I expected, even though I'd previously been using buckling springs.

You can switch Cherry switches around by exchanging their innards, apparently the bodies are all the same. So I was considering modding my Maltron to use MX Blue mechanisms instead. The main drawback, apart from the fiddliness and time required would be the noise. The large body of the Maltron already amplifies the sound from the keys a lot. If that were any worse it could make a person quite unpopular!

I'm still playing with the Maltron but I am liking it. They don't look or feel as expensive as they are - but it is probably my favourite out of all my keyboards or indeed any keyboards I've tried. I'd like to post a review on here once I've had a chance to play with it some more and sort out some of the niggles.

Lanx · « **Reply #35 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 18:22:57 »

check the mod section for cherry keyswapping by both methods of disassembling a cherry keyswitch and replacing the stems or desoldering. Is the maltron plate mounted?

Pylon · « **Reply #36 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 18:33:03 »

Could you switch swap an Apple Adjustable with say, white complicated Alps?

Findecanor · « **Reply #37 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 18:45:34 »

No. Apple Adjustable Keyboard has low-profile PCB-mounted ALPS-switches. These have different pins and key caps than "regular" ALPS switches.

ricercar · « **Reply #38 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 19:58:51 »

Send PM if you're interested in my 2-piece keyboards: Kinesis Evolution or Apple Adjustable, both of which are for sale.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #39 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 20:02:16 »

It sure has been a while since Apple's been into ergonomics.

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 07 January 2011, 00:22:13 »

Quote from: unicomp;238813

It would be interesting to see a completely wireless and 'fully' split board. By this I mean that the two halves communicate without wires between themselves and then one of the halves will communicate with the computer (or some other similar system), this would make quite a nice system if there was a good chair mount.

If anyone has info or the ability to make this happen, I would appreciate any direction. I would use this on the Kinesis Contoured Split Project.

MarkWilliamson · « **Reply #41 on:** Fri, 07 January 2011, 10:14:22 »

Quote from: Lanx;274235

check the mod section for cherry keyswapping by both methods of disassembling a cherry keyswitch and replacing the stems or desoldering. Is the maltron plate mounted?

The Maltron is very much not plate mounted ;-) You'll know what I mean when I see one. It's basically a contoured shaped piece of plastic with square holes cut in it (probably by hand, on the keyboard I've got) and Cherry switches push fit in there.

That's like how you'd plate mount the switches, I guess, except that the keyboard matrix wiring is done using *lots* of individual jumper wires point-to-point - there's no PCB. If you're careful you can sometimes pop the switches out but you have to be careful not to break those connections.

I reckon for someone with more patience than me it should be possible to switch the mechanisms for MX blues. I even have some donor switches here to try. But it's likely to be a fairly fiddly operation and those usually result in me breaking things. When I got this keyboard I had to fix a part of the keyboard matrix, which has left me with a desire not to do so again!

Lanx · « **Reply #42 on:** Fri, 07 January 2011, 12:55:01 »

if that's the case should be rather simple than to just swap the inards, ceesa has a vid on how to do that. (from recent memory).

MarkWilliamson · « **Reply #43 on:** Fri, 07 January 2011, 13:44:37 »

I can certainly take a crack at it, maybe I will at some point! It's just a question of the time required really. I need to find / make myself a decent cherry key puller first though.

Lanx · « **Reply #44 on:** Fri, 07 January 2011, 13:57:37 »

to pull the keycaps off? i've used a butterknife for a few hundred w/o issue. Lately i've been using the plastic keycap puller that was included in the doubleshot group buy.

netwebber · « **Reply #45 on:** Tue, 11 January 2011, 00:03:35 »

Quote from: microsoft windows;274286

It sure has been a while since Apple's been into ergonomics.

When it comes to the shape of their hardware, yeah. But the iPhone interface is the most intuitive I've ever encountered. I realized how natural it was when I started to try to get my PC to behave more like my iPhone (smooth scrolling, reverse-pinch zooming).

bluecar5556 · « **Reply #46 on:** Wed, 09 March 2011, 05:36:38 »

Split Kinesis Contour Classic (advantage) keyboard mod

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Author Topic: Split keyboard with mechanical switches (Read 26348 times)