Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:44:17
(Ultra High Molecular Weight plastic Winkeyless/Winkey Tenkeyless) keyboard
Working on better renders. Some of these are really old.
[attach=4][attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
[attach=7][attach=8][attach=9]
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**UPDATE: Survey form added. Please fill this out https://goo.gl/forms/ayiwiBF3Ppz1Yx5g2 (https://goo.gl/forms/ayiwiBF3Ppz1Yx5g2)
Expected benefits of this new material:
SOUND
Weight/heft compared to other plastic cases
Durability compared to other plastic cases
RGB diffusion
What is UHMW?
It's really dense, very abrasion-resistant plastic. It's commonly found in cutting boards and used as mouse feet (the mouse in your hand, not in the cage).
It's also used in rifle round body armor protection and strung into threads for rope climbing. The most popular textile form of UHMW is Dyneema, so google that if you'd like. It's been used to make bags that float on water but hold hundreds of pounds.
Am I using it for any of that? No. My experience with the material is this:
[attach=5][attach=6]
These are sliding pucks for longboarding (skateboarding). It's also used as pucks for knee dragging in motorcycling.
That also gives shows you the common finish put on UHMW. It can be refined much smoother or textured, though.
I also like the light diffusion characteristics of it. Here's a video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OyYOz6rkE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OyYOz6rkE)
Notes:
Mounting is topmount so far, but may switch to sandwich mount based on prototype.
No proprietary PCB planned. Will be based off Hineybush's A87 PCB with RGB underglow
Material is white UHMW for diffusion, black UHMW for sniper/ninja feelz
Black version will have larger base for sound & weight (white design is based more on underglow)
Black render will be done by Monday.
Plate material will be either brass or UHMW depending on sound/feel testing
Plate will be 1.5mm, either UHMW, brass, or some other plastic.
Screws will be magnetic, all same size
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Background:
I was a Korean airborne linguist for the US Air Force for about 10 years. Now I work in a hospital.
I carry my keyboard with me to and from work every day.
It gets shoved in my backpack or carried by hand from one work station to another a few times a day.
I don't have my own desk.
I want a board that feels like a Kustom,
but one that I'm not terrified of scuffing and ruining anodization,
or dropping and denting,
or scratching against a corner as I walk with it in hand.
Sometimes I want RGB.
In those cases, I want it to be diffused throughout the board itself,
not weakly reflected off the desk.
Feel and sound are very important to me. Most important, actually.
Looks are up there too, but sound and feel..oh man.
I don't want to have to add a weight or sorbothane to improve my case's sound quality.
Especially if it already costs so much.
Heft: a board should be solid and not move when typing. But it shouldn't be prohibitively heavy.
Sometimes, I like just holding my THE50 or CA66. I can't do that with my TX-CP.
This first board in UHMW is a TKL, well, because I don't have one, and I want one.
Next iteration will be based on what I want at that time.
Likely a modified Alice/EM7 board, well, because I don't have one, and I want one.
NO ISO planned right now. Interest check may change my mind.
No split backspace planned right now. Interest check may change my mind.
Google survey coming soon.
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Expected hurdles:
Reliable manufacturer.
So far, I plan to use a local (Northern California) manufacturer,
so that if there are delays or problems,
I can be on site to get details or help fix things.
Experienced manufacturer.
UHMW is not often CNC'd into anything this complicated.
Thermal expansion is a minor issue,
but feeding is the more prevalent issue so far.
UHMW doesn't turn to dust like other plastics when machined.
It turns into spaghetti. This requires more attention,
and constant resetting,
which means longer machine time. Meaning higher cost.
There are innovative ways around this, though.
Unforeseeable stuff. This is really sappy. Read at your own discretion.
More
I intended to get this project off the ground 3 months ago,
however my wife nearly died at the start of this year.
So my family has been in and out of the hospital for 3 months.
With her recovery, I now feel like I can get this thing going and finished.
This board is named after her. I almost ended up a single dad to a five year-old and one year-old.
I almost lost my best friend. If you meet her, you'll understand why this board is named after her.
She diffuses everything harsh about me.
As soon as you meet her, you love her and don't want her to leave.
You want to carry her with you everywhere you go.
however my wife nearly died at the start of this year.
So my family has been in and out of the hospital for 3 months.
With her recovery, I now feel like I can get this thing going and finished.
This board is named after her. I almost ended up a single dad to a five year-old and one year-old.
I almost lost my best friend. If you meet her, you'll understand why this board is named after her.
She diffuses everything harsh about me.
As soon as you meet her, you love her and don't want her to leave.
You want to carry her with you everywhere you go.
Here's what won't be a problem: COMMUNICATION (Rant coming...)
More
Updates will be scheduled weekly on Fridays.
If there are problems, you will know about it.
If things are going well, you will know about it.
If I have personal issues, you will know about it.
If I can't give details on something, you will know about it.
But at least, every Friday, you will know what's going on and what the expected timeline is.
I also will NOT make up estimated finish dates.
This is just an interest check so far, but
I hate not knowing what's going on, especially if it's something I'm purchasing.
You might feel the same way.
Communication will be consolidated here on Geekhack.
Information on discord gets mired in chat.
Reddit threads get scrapped if there are disagreements.
Keebtalk doesn't have much traffic, and I don't like the format.
I'm used to this kind of forum.
If you pm me, and don't hear back right away,
your answer is likely coming on Friday or earlier in the thread update.
If you pm me, and I answer right away, feel free to share that information in the thread.
In regards to the material and process: this is new ground.
If I give out misinformation and find out I'm wrong, I will own up to it.
If you have helpful knowledge, I'd appreciate it if you shared.
I want to share the process, so other better creators can have another material option.
Again, communication is very important to me.
If I intend to take your money and create something, this is now my job. I will treat it as such.
My phone will have notifications turned on for this thread.
If it becomes too much, I will get help from someone.
But no matter what, you will get answers.
If there are problems, you will know about it.
If things are going well, you will know about it.
If I have personal issues, you will know about it.
If I can't give details on something, you will know about it.
But at least, every Friday, you will know what's going on and what the expected timeline is.
I also will NOT make up estimated finish dates.
This is just an interest check so far, but
I hate not knowing what's going on, especially if it's something I'm purchasing.
You might feel the same way.
Communication will be consolidated here on Geekhack.
Information on discord gets mired in chat.
Reddit threads get scrapped if there are disagreements.
Keebtalk doesn't have much traffic, and I don't like the format.
I'm used to this kind of forum.
If you pm me, and don't hear back right away,
your answer is likely coming on Friday or earlier in the thread update.
If you pm me, and I answer right away, feel free to share that information in the thread.
In regards to the material and process: this is new ground.
If I give out misinformation and find out I'm wrong, I will own up to it.
If you have helpful knowledge, I'd appreciate it if you shared.
I want to share the process, so other better creators can have another material option.
Again, communication is very important to me.
If I intend to take your money and create something, this is now my job. I will treat it as such.
My phone will have notifications turned on for this thread.
If it becomes too much, I will get help from someone.
But no matter what, you will get answers.
Post by: _GMK_ on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:45:31
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:49:54
Aside, this sounds interesting for a new material option. Will stay tuned to see more about it. What's the expected cost?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:52:51
mmm... no pictures?Got the pics going, I think.
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:53:58
I see them now. To start off a discussion, is the plate going to be exposed to air directly? How does UHMW work that you've chosen that top part design (no top piece with blockers between each cluster)?mmm... no pictures?Got the pics going, I think.
Also seems like I'd be able to see the switches underneath the caps where there are gaps between clusters. I'm not a fan of low profile-esque looks.
Another point: does that plate not support full right Shift?
Post by: loud_asian on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:54:22
I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.
Post by: SteffeMK on Fri, 01 March 2019, 03:58:44
Skickat från min ONEPLUS A6013 via Tapatalk
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 04:09:25
My second hard drive crapped itself, and that's where my Fusion 360 files are at. These survived and I thought they were good enough to post.
I didn't look carefully enough.
SO..
Yes to non-split right shift support.
Blockers will be there between F Row keys and around the right section keys.
It's a high profile case all around.
Sorry for the misleading pics.
Post by: OtherAndrew on Fri, 01 March 2019, 04:31:24
Post by: _GMK_ on Fri, 01 March 2019, 04:42:25
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 05:12:35
Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?
UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 05:27:54
The case material is pretty interesting.Got Fusion 360 back up. Local renders will take about 20 minutes each on my laptop, but I'm very tired (3:30 am here and gotta be up at 5:30am).
I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.
I will edit the main post tomorrow, but for now just think plastic LZ CLS or what have you. It is high profile.
Post by: _GMK_ on Fri, 01 March 2019, 05:45:20
Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?
UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.
I was talking about injection molding in general. I was wondering why no one ever run a gb for an injection molded case. I like plastic too, so having a nice case in thick abs would be optimal and allow for infinite costomizations.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 06:02:04
This is a totally different beast. The plastic I'm using, aside from the sound characteristics, is very durable.
It's one of the reasons polycarbonate cases can be sold for so much. Polycarb is strong.
UHMW is what many cutting boards are made of. Also, mountain climbing ropes, fishing line, motorcycle knee pucks, truck trailer bed liners, and even rifle round bulletproof plates.
Post by: iaman on Fri, 01 March 2019, 07:34:18
And, additionally: sorry to hear about the personal stuff. It takes a big person to come out of a scare like that and hop back into work on a project like this, and I wish you and your loved ones all the best.
Post by: mrpetrov on Fri, 01 March 2019, 08:34:21
What typing angle are you planning?
Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?
Thanks!
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 10:12:01
Looks interesting.
What typing angle are you planning?
Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?
Thanks!
It's a 7 degree typing angle. I'm fastest on an 11 degree (or flat for some reason), but 7 seems to be a good middle ground.
I will try it out with the prototype when it comes and definitely post a typing test, sound test comparing other materials and boards of similar size, and a video to show light diffusion.
Videos are really important to me when I buy stuff online. I always check Youtube reviews and usually trust those over written reviews.
Thank you for asking!
Post by: jan on Fri, 01 March 2019, 11:09:00
Post by: tex_live_utility on Fri, 01 March 2019, 11:09:28
Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 11:38:14
Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.
Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?
UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.
Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.
The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.
Post by: hineybush on Fri, 01 March 2019, 12:29:17
Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap
This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 12:46:22
Injection molding is obv used for keyboards
Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap
This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.
UHMW can be compression molded, but it has to be done slowly and in a nitrogen atmosphere instead of ambient air.
For UHMW to be injection molded, it has to be injected "using a microcellular injection molding (MIM) process to introduce supercritical nitrogen into the melt to
decrease viscosity and improve processability while reducing degradation." leaders.4spe.org/spe/conferences/ANTEC2017/papers/509.pdf (http://leaders.4spe.org/spe/conferences/ANTEC2017/papers/509.pdf)
Really, I think machining is the most cost effective for the numbers so far, like what Hineybush said.
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 01 March 2019, 12:55:27
Completely unfamiliar with UHMW. You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it. I think I know the stuff you're talking about. Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well? I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches. A case like that would be very cool.
Post by: sJ1N on Fri, 01 March 2019, 13:46:03
also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 14:14:17
Quite interesting. I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.
Completely unfamiliar with UHMW. You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it. I think I know the stuff you're talking about. Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well? I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches. A case like that would be very cool.
interested, curious to see more about the material
also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.
Thank you! My wife is 100% now, and we're trucking along.
As for the material, yes, it does come in other colors, but they are completely opaque, not allowing any light through.
For people who don't want to use the RGB, this may actually be preferable. Suppliers so far have only given me one satisfying color, though:
BLACK.
All other colors, like blue or red that I've seen, look like...boo boo. Not good.
Post by: tex_live_utility on Fri, 01 March 2019, 14:27:20
Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.
Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?
UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.
Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.
The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.
I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 01 March 2019, 14:59:05
I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?
HDPE is denser than UHMW, and well....this isn't very scientific, but when I tapped a keycap (one PBT OEM profile, and one GMK double shot ABS) against the block of HDPE, the sound was higher pitched than the UHMW.
Honestly, I have no experience with HDPE, but I've heard it machines more easily to a smoother finish, although both can be finished nicely.
HDPE is also lighter, so for my purposes, I prefer the heft of UHMW.
If you have any info that suggests HDPE might be a better keyboard case material, though, I'm open.
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 01 March 2019, 15:38:42
Post by: pixelpusher on Fri, 01 March 2019, 17:18:18
Post by: Sylanthra on Fri, 01 March 2019, 18:53:06
Post by: ossetepo on Fri, 01 March 2019, 19:24:53
Post by: Peiweisgreat on Sat, 02 March 2019, 01:51:24
Post by: dr_unconscionable on Sat, 02 March 2019, 01:55:48
Post by: TuCZnak on Sat, 02 March 2019, 04:14:08
I'm not normally into TKLs, but I'm very into your IC post. I love the new material, the name, and your philosophy on communication. Definitely following with interest!
Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL, other than that I'd be very on board. Material looks super interesting and more "user friendly" than aluminium.
Post by: japanesehorrorwriter on Sat, 02 March 2019, 08:00:14
Post by: piit79 on Sat, 02 March 2019, 08:43:46
Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL
Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast ;) )
Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.
Post by: tex_live_utility on Sat, 02 March 2019, 13:56:11
As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates. I'll be very interested to see protos.
I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 02 March 2019, 16:57:57
You mentioned that sound and feel are most important to you, but you didn't mention what sound and feel you are actually looking for.(Or I didn't see it.) What are you looking for exactly?
SOUND: Sound preference is very subjective, but UHMW excels at two aspects that seem very important to a lot of people:
1) It has excellent sound dampening properties.
2) It has a relatively low "THOCK" pitch when struck.
FEEL: Feel is also very subjective, but for me, my favorite board I have in terms of typing feel is my CA66, which is topmounted with a brass plate.
However, I will also be prototyping a UHMW 1.5mm separate plate and a top case with 4.8mm integrated plate.
Also, Hineybush's A87 PCB is pretty thick (the current version at least), so I'll probably cut myself a half plate and try that out as well.
Quite interesting. I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.
Completely unfamiliar with UHMW. You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it. I think I know the stuff you're talking about. Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well? I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches. A case like that would be very cool.
My renders are just from Fusion360, which I'm really new at using (I haven't touched CAD since AutoCAD 2000...in the year 2001). I'll be downloading some HDR images for better environments, but I'll also see about downloading another 3D rendering program.
The Irma WILL be coming out in a white and black version.
Is this the stuff that outdoor playground equipment is made from?
Yes. UHMW and HDPE are both used in a lot of playground equipment. UHWM for abrasion resistance, and HDPE for impact.
As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates. I'll be very interested to see protos.
I'm a nerd, but definitely not an expert on plastics. Any wisdom or information you provide is GREATLY appreciated.
Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL
Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast ;) )
Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.
I like the way WKL looks. And I don't have any WKL boards.
HOWEVER, I don't have any particular attachment to WKL or blockers in gerenal. I'll be putting up the Google survey this weekend. Key layout will be a section I pay close attention to.
Also, the bottom is not particularly locked in either. People will be able to vote in the survey for white with stepped bottom, black with stepped bottom, white with fat booty, or black with fat booty.
I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.
If UHMW doesn't work out as a plate material, I'm likely going to go with another plastic. However, so far I have hand cut two of my own plates out of UHMW, and I like how they sound and feel.
I did it with a dremel, so some of the switch cut outs are off from when my cat jumped on my desk or when I had to go chase after my toddler.
Expect sound tests soon, though.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 03 March 2019, 16:46:29
Looks like this:
[attach=1]
As for the UHMW plates, they'll be cut for the TKL. I'm also looking into water jet cutting to see if that yields cleaner edges. Edge finishing on UHMW is literally someone waving an open flame from what I've been told. I don't know how consistent that would be for the switch cutouts on a plate.
Post by: switchnollie on Sun, 03 March 2019, 17:24:25
Post by: ossetepo on Sun, 03 March 2019, 21:40:27
Post by: tex_live_utility on Mon, 04 March 2019, 08:21:11
The standard issue with UHMW machining is thermal expansion, which makes holding tolerances really hard. The shop I've used advertises 0.01" tolerances as the best they can do for it. The Cherry spec for plate cutouts tolerance is 0.002", but we've all seen plates with wider tolerances than that work. I'm firmly in the "if it works it works" camp, so if your dremel'd plates are holding switches, then :thumb:.
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 04 March 2019, 09:46:42
Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.
My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.
Post by: jacky on Mon, 04 March 2019, 13:37:15
Good luck
Post by: tex_live_utility on Mon, 04 March 2019, 14:01:19
Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.
My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.
This makes sense.
TKL is probably the most standardized since the a87 layout is public and well-defined for both PCB and plate. Then you can use e.g. the H87a PCB and get your own plate made, or use Hiney's FR4 plates.
Whereas 60% plates are only standardized for tray mount. And there is no standard (yet) for any other layout.
Post by: ramblinrose on Mon, 04 March 2019, 14:33:26
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 04 March 2019, 14:45:25
Cool project! I'm curious to see how the black case comes out - Plastic definitely has appeal for better sound, just never been into the clear polycarb hype.
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.
Topmount all plastic is the ideal. Hopefully machining tolerances let me do it.
Carbon fiber is also an option.
Post by: InvidiousIgnoramus on Mon, 04 March 2019, 16:08:27
Post by: bthezebra on Mon, 04 March 2019, 16:28:08
Post by: ossetepo on Mon, 04 March 2019, 20:53:13
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress. A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.
Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore. We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 04 March 2019, 21:15:05
Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.
Post by: Ensaum on Mon, 04 March 2019, 21:33:13
Post by: dr_unconscionable on Mon, 04 March 2019, 21:46:12
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
Post by: Ensaum on Mon, 04 March 2019, 21:54:46
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 04 March 2019, 22:39:37
Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress. A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.
Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore. We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.
The plan for screw holes is to do like Matt3O showed with his 3D printed board and using threaded inserts into slightly large holes heated up with a soldering iron.
Actually, one of the cool things I heard/saw that UHMW allows over some other plastics is that pieces can be "welded" with strips or chips of UHMW.
My thought is that if I make the holes large enough, I can correctly align then fill in the gaps around the thread inserts with UHMW chips. That's a long shot, though. Hopefully the manufacturer can provide tolerances that won't need that.
Post by: ossetepo on Mon, 04 March 2019, 22:49:12
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 04 March 2019, 23:20:31
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.
u right
im not that cold a mother****er/poor a reader
glad you changed the thread title, this is much better
v interested in this
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Tue, 05 March 2019, 00:08:21
I like the idea a lot, and it seems like you're passionate about this. The name sucks but the board looks like it'll be pretty good. I'm partial to brass or carbon fiber plate due to plastic warping. Something stiff for the top piece to anchor to might be helpful. 27 and I experimented with it a bit when we were working on a plastic board (that project is long dead) and it seemed to be helpful.
Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.
Agree on the "UHMW WKL TKL" part of the name. Changed the title.
I also like brass and carbon fiber and, price permitting, would love to offer them as options. I understand about carbon fiber in the US.
Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.
I got hit by a car on my carbon fiber bicycle in 2013. Fixing the seat stay and chain stay in Santa Cruz were quoted as costing $300 per piece....
I just did it myself.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
I plan on using the manufacturer 10 minutes away for as much as possible. I can negotiate with him face to face.
The manufacturers I'm looking at for EVERY part of this board are small shops (often one man businesses).
It's been cheaper so far to help a small manufacturer experiment with new materials and limited tooling than to go with an "experienced" manufacturer, get thrown into a queue, and get a flawed product.
I literally get to drive down to my manufacturer if there is a problem. I think that's why China GB's are so smooth...for Chinese.
No negativity towards them at all. I just would like to have that here in the US.
Hopefully, in a year's time, with the prices of CNC machines going down, and from what I learn during this process, I'll be my own manufacturer.
A couple of thoughts. I'm not clear on whether or not a non-wkl version will be offered, but I'd like a regular tkl option. Also, would it be possible to mix and match the top and bottom case colors? I think it would look nice to have a black top with white bottom for rgb diffusion personally.
WKL is not locked in. I just like how it looks. It's not a big deal to offer both actually.
And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.
Yeah, the thread title was a bad mixup of sappy and cryptic. I'll do better.
Post by: oldcat on Tue, 05 March 2019, 00:12:48
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 05 March 2019, 00:15:09
i also saw that you want to do an alice style board, so i'll probably hold out for that (and to see how this GB goes) but i'm very optimistic about this
i have more faith in this IC than i do like 90% of ICs, so consider this puddsy approved
it would be super sick if you could machine all the boards yourself
Post by: Ensaum on Tue, 05 March 2019, 00:33:57
And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).
Oh yeah, totally understand. I want the white bottom for underglow purposes and the black top for seated viewing aesthetics.
This IC came just in time though. I was just about to order parts for a kbd65 build that I originally wanted to do as an underglow tkl but I couldn't find anything that worked with what I envisioned :thumb:
How flexible is UHMW? My vote would be for this as the plate material if it flexes a fair bit. I've been wanting to do one of those trendy flexy builds, and it would help with the harsh bottom out of my holy gsus switches.
Post by: TeeAreEffedUp on Tue, 05 March 2019, 16:06:57
Anyways I just looked through the current board proposal and think it looks great. I love the story behind the name and I'm honestly pretty curious on how UHMW is as a material as I only have manufacturing/milling experience with Lexan and HDPE making mtb bash guards. Regardless, I love how my poly and acrylic boards feel and sound, so assuming this could keep in the ballpark of $300, I'd gladly be in for a board.
I'll be following this board fairly closely.
Post by: japanesehorrorwriter on Wed, 06 March 2019, 02:01:13
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Wed, 06 March 2019, 03:04:30
Post by: tentboy on Wed, 06 March 2019, 07:48:57
Post by: jollyeskimo on Wed, 06 March 2019, 09:04:52
Post by: coffeeshopcoder on Wed, 06 March 2019, 15:07:02
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?
Post by: Puddsy on Wed, 06 March 2019, 15:22:59
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Wed, 06 March 2019, 17:18:03
Out of curiosity, what colors/opacities does UHMW come in? White is already an uncommon color for keyboards, but it might be cool to have a translucent version or something.
UHMW in raw form is translucent white but not quite clear like or frosted like polycarb (see render of bottom view).
Black is the other most common color for industrial use, but it can be any color as far as I know. However, any other color than white or black that I've seen looked horrible. But that may be just because no one tried to color match it to anything.
This first round will just be black and white. Those are also the cheapest color options. After this round, I will definitely look into color matching popular sets. I personally would love a Solarized Dark version.
interested ! (WK - Mix n Match ) would be nice.
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?
I will definitely be posting a video review of the prototypes.
I've bought handmade high-end custom knives before, and one of the great things that many knife makers do is include a build log with either photos or links to videos.
I would love to do the something similar.
For mixing and matching colors and tops (WKL/WK): yes.
Post by: PopSandwich on Wed, 06 March 2019, 17:26:57
Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?
Post by: omitrix212 on Thu, 07 March 2019, 14:22:25
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Thu, 07 March 2019, 14:59:28
Wow this looks amazing! I love the idea of a rugged keyboard that can take a beating.
Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?
I will post weights when I get the prototypes in, for sure.
Really digging the board's design! Sorry if this is a stupid question but looking at the renders, where would the usb port be?
New renders will be up when I get some more "cloud credits" from AutoDesk, but the USB port will be on the back towards the right side if you're looking at the board as if you were typing.
The case will fit the H87a PCB.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 09 March 2019, 09:41:53
-Speaking with two prototype manufacturers here in Northern California and dialing in tolerances based off the designs and their experience with UHMW.
-Irma mentioned on Top Clack and MOI channels! Stoked!
*Clarification for Jae: stiff feel is not what I'm going for, so sandwich mount and integrated plate are out. The concern was that thermal warping might be lessened with a thicker plate material. Also, the renders are done in Fusion 360. The material applied is UHMW. I'm just not great at renders.
-For sure not going with integrated plate based off manufacturing costs. Also makes sense for feel. I tested my hand cut plates, and the 1.5mm plate feels great.
-Negotiating with a certain US supplier for carbon fiber plate materials. Will have them cut elsewhere, though.
-Trying to work on renders outside of Fusion 360. I downloaded 3ds Max, but UHMW doesn't work in the materials database for lighting effects, even with Arnold or VRay. Any help is appreciated, but I'm about to give up on 3ds Max and try something else.
-Updated the main post with picture material reference and old ghetto video of diffusion. Please click here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99637.msg2729983#msg2729983 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99637.msg2729983#msg2729983)
Post by: TuCZnak on Sat, 09 March 2019, 10:26:52
Post by: tex_live_utility on Sat, 09 March 2019, 13:05:17
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 16 March 2019, 02:02:54
I've just realized that A87 is miniUSB. Do you know of any compatible PCB that has USB-C? It'd be a shame to have such nice board end up with an old connector. Would KBD8X PCB fit?I know nothing about the KBD8X PCB, but I'll look into it. Honestly, I still like mini-USB. I've had overcurrent issues with a couple USB-C PCBs. Never had an issue like that with mini-USB. But I understand many people wanting to move to one cable for everything and not having to look at orientation when plugging in.
*The USB port is something I'm really working on actually.
I was so stoked to finally get a good Yarbo cable, then tried to plug it into a couple Kustoms, only to find out the port hole was too small.
Or on other boards, the PCB was mounted too far away, and I had to shave off the end of a Lindy cable.
Or the port hole was too big, so you have to look and line up the cable anyway or risk jamming the USB-C male end under or above where you're trying to plug in.
Trabbit's THE50 is my favorite because no matter which cable I use, I don't have to tip the back of the board up or look and make sure I'm perfectly aligned. Many different cables easily fall right into place, and there's always a satisfying click when I plug in. I can leave my computer muted and still know my keyboard is ready to go.
Would be nice to have metal plates to go with this as well (alu/sts/brass). Maybe not as part of main GB, but if the plate files were released someone else could run it.Plate files will definitely be released. I'll be testing out different plate materials on it. The ones that I like the best will come standard. I love it when "base kit" for a board has two different plates, so I want to do that with the Irma.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 16 March 2019, 03:14:43
The black case now has a brass weight optional insert. Black case and white case are substantially different on purpose. Sound is the main factor. But they are interchangeable. I do want to offer WKL & WK tops because WKL is oh so sexy, but I do use the Windows key a lot on Windows machines.
Goal is to have a prototype in hand before the 25th. The main guy I'm talking to thinks it's definitely possible. He runs his machines at 2am to 10am, then does checks so I can have updates by noon. His shop is a 15-20 minute drive away.
Nathan said on Twitch if someone splits right shift on a TKL, we can't be friends, so that has been updated ;)
Saw Huey make good use of switch top opening on a stream, so I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.
Brian made the moneymoney hand gesture when mentioning the likely price due to US manufacturing. He's right, but I've found a couple ways to cut down cost without compromising quality. First has to do with timing. Second has to do with timing. I will not elaborate.
Post by: Sintpinty on Sat, 16 March 2019, 11:07:41
Post by: pixelpusher on Sat, 16 March 2019, 21:26:17
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 16 March 2019, 23:44:47
I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.
But switch top opening is super useful for lubing switches on an assembled board. Otherwise you'd have to desolder.
Post by: godisafk on Sun, 17 March 2019, 00:18:56
Post by: TuCZnak on Sun, 17 March 2019, 03:12:33
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.
As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 17 March 2019, 03:47:02
Thanks for the update, appreciate you're sticking to your word about communication ;-)Sound dampening is one of the advertised characteristics of UHMW.
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.
As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?
The thing that grabbed me about it is how deep it sounds when struck. Lower pitched sounds aren't as audible as higher pitched. (For example, in SERE school, they teach you never to whisper when evading. Instead talk in a lower pitched voice softly).
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 17 March 2019, 03:51:18
Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 17 March 2019, 03:57:33
Sound and heft (compared to other plastic boards) are the emphases, so the bottom is much different. Brass weight is designed in for prototype just in case all UHMW doesn't have enough heft.
Been messing with SKCM alps and discovered how amazing they sound in plastic cases. Working on Alps plate design (please give input on stabs & mod size suggestions).
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 17 March 2019, 04:04:35
Interesting material! Would love to see how light diffuses in a prototype compared to sandblasted Polycarb or acrylic1. Split backspace is provided. Hineybush's H87a PCB has it and the plate accommodates it.
Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker
2. Interesting. It might look hideous, but I honestly never use right Winkey when it's available.
I'll sketch it up when I get the chance. It just looks like this in my head though:
[attach=1]
Post by: Jkshowman on Sun, 17 March 2019, 06:43:34
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 17 March 2019, 12:47:35
I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!
Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 17 March 2019, 13:33:56
Post by: TuCZnak on Sun, 17 March 2019, 14:03:54
Post by: kinglukas38 on Sun, 17 March 2019, 14:34:34
Post by: 6FeaT on Sun, 17 March 2019, 14:59:13
Post by: Jkshowman on Sun, 17 March 2019, 15:06:05
I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!
Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype
Eh, still count me in :) going to start saving up!
Post by: Ensaum on Sun, 17 March 2019, 15:47:01
Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?
+1 That's a damn good looking case design.
Post by: Damage on Sun, 17 March 2019, 21:35:36
Post by: spctr13 on Thu, 21 March 2019, 23:49:35
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Post by: odd on Fri, 22 March 2019, 14:27:37
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 23 March 2019, 11:17:37
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
-TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
-BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
-So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.
Post by: tentboy on Sat, 23 March 2019, 11:52:24
Late Update (sorry):
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
-TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
-BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
-So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.
If like you said it is an easy modification, i think gasket would be really cool on this board!
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 23 March 2019, 12:04:37
Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.
Edit...uh, not sure how to add the poll. Any help?
Post by: GigaFlop on Sat, 23 March 2019, 14:24:39
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 23 March 2019, 14:40:19
If tolerances work out, then I'm still 100% doing a 60/65% case.
Post by: TuCZnak on Sat, 23 March 2019, 15:08:43
A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.There should be an "Add poll" button on the bottom of the page (next to Reply etc.)
Edit...uh, not sure how to add the poll. Any help?
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 24 March 2019, 23:45:20
Post by: Puddsy on Mon, 25 March 2019, 00:10:27
Added a google survey form instead on OP
filled it, thanks man
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 25 March 2019, 00:32:01
UHMW is the prefix which describes its characteristics, like LD, HD or Hi.
BTW, I effing hate polyethylene. Slick, and difficult to work with.
Wouldn't this be a slippery keyboard with frayed edges?
Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.The labour cost is not insane. There is a lot of labour.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
Also, professional carbon fibre pieces are made with a stronger resin, and cured in an autoclave: under heat and low pressure — not just laid down with laminating epoxy (for fibreglass).
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 25 March 2019, 01:31:19
The name of the material is UHMWPE, not UHMW.Polyethylene is classified by density and branching. There is nothing else I know of that commonly uses "UHMW" as its prefix, so if you say "UHMW," everyone knows you're referring to UHMWPE.
UHMW is the prefix which describes its characteristics, like LD, HD or Hi.
BTW, I effing hate polyethylene. Slick, and difficult to work with.
Wouldn't this be a slippery keyboard with frayed edges?Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.The labour cost is not insane. There is a lot of labour.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
Also, professional carbon fibre pieces are made with a stronger resin, and cured in an autoclave: under heat and low pressure — not just laid down with laminating epoxy (for fibreglass).
My friends and I dealt with "UHMWPE" a lot when longboarding and for motorcycling.
It does not have to always be slick, although it has a very low coefficient of friction, nor frayed, although it does fray when machined. It can be finished, though, to be either smooth, textured, or even satin-like.
I think it's abrasion resistance and sound profile will be worth the nightmare of machining it.
For carbon fiber: I know there is work involved, and experience needed. But the prices are inflated here in the US. Like I said, I've worked with it myself. I know what's involved. Keyboard plates aren't like automotive parts or race bicycles. Yes, they really do just need to be laid with resin (in my case, I used EPOXY RESIN) and cured under the correct temperature with light pressure. That is easily done in my garage or kitchen. Vacuum bagging is cheap. Inside out electrical tape is cheap. Ordering from 159 | projectkeyboard is cheap. So I stand by my statement that US labor costs for anything involving carbon fiber are unjustified. I've also been to Calfee design and seen what they do. It's not rocket science or hard labour.
But honestly, carbon fiber is just ok as a plate material. In terms of sound and feel, it doesn't offer much over plastics or brass. It does look cool.
Post by: LightningXI on Mon, 25 March 2019, 06:23:55
Post by: TuCZnak on Mon, 25 March 2019, 10:46:50
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?
Post by: PotatoTM on Mon, 25 March 2019, 11:26:24
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 25 March 2019, 17:40:47
Filled out the survey ;)Hopefully, the prototype can come by the end of next week. If all goes well, I want to test for at least 2 weeks, and if it feels and looks good, GB immediately after that.
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?
Post by: tentboy on Tue, 26 March 2019, 07:34:08
awesome!Filled out the survey ;)Hopefully, the prototype can come by the end of next week. If all goes well, I want to test for at least 2 weeks, and if it feels and looks good, GB immediately after that.
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?
Post by: equalunique on Wed, 27 March 2019, 18:35:13
Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 30 March 2019, 01:38:32
Sifting through manufacturers. Prototype quotes are prohibitive in NorCal so far
For example, my latest quotes have been for almost $10K for a 3 day turnaround, or $7K for a one month turnaround... on a prototype. I want three. Others have just been making me wait, or lying about what they can do with the material.
So still looking. Also considering just figuring out how to get funds for a used Haas and do this myself.
In the meantime, I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.
Post by: tentboy on Sat, 30 March 2019, 08:35:02
Update:
Sifting through manufacturers. Prototype quotes are prohibitive in NorCal so far
For example, my latest quotes have been for almost $10K for a 3 day turnaround, or $7K for a one month turnaround... on a prototype. I want three. Others have just been making me wait, or lying about what they can do with the material.
So still looking. Also considering just figuring out how to get funds for a used Haas and do this myself.
In the meantime, I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.
take the time you need for work and family! appreciate the effort and cant wait to see how it comes out
Post by: tex_live_utility on Tue, 02 April 2019, 08:09:55
Tolerances are the issue. If it doesn't work out for a plate or because of the blockers on the TKL face, then 100% I'm doing a 60% case. I don't like tray mount, though.
If tolerances work out, then I'm still 100% doing a 60/65% case.
I think it's probably still worth doing a TKL with a metal plate even if you can't get the UHMW plate to work.
That said, I'd be happy to buy a 60% version as well!
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Tue, 02 April 2019, 13:09:22
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.
Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.
Post by: Puddsy on Tue, 02 April 2019, 13:18:25
Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.
Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.
Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 02 April 2019, 13:24:49
Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.
Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.
Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.
I know abs can take cerakote, at least the low temp version. I don't know the temperature characteristics of UHMW though. I think injection molding is pretty friggin awesome if that's the route we're going.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Tue, 02 April 2019, 16:01:31
Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.
I know abs can take cerakote, at least the low temp version. I don't know the temperature characteristics of UHMW though. I think injection molding is pretty friggin awesome if that's the route we're going.So UHMW heat tolerance is about the same as ABS from what I've been told/read, which is at the bottom range of what is possible with Cerakote.
I'll find out for sure, though.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Wed, 03 April 2019, 13:32:21
But still kind of sticking to my guns on not using an overseas manufacturer. Nothing against that at all.
I just think I found a guy that is knowledgeable about this community, is proven, and has GREAT communication.
Today was the breakthrough I needed.
Also keep posted for another simultaneous IC/GB if the material proves worth doing.
****AND REAL RENDERS INCOMING!!!
Today has been a real blessing.
This community is amazing.
Post by: pixelpusher on Wed, 03 April 2019, 18:59:38
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 06 April 2019, 12:56:26
Better renders ✔ - coming soon from Tesletron, who was an inspiration for this board in the first place with the Lumina, and its Corian case.
Plates in different materials ✔ - plate files will be posted, but the initial run, I plan to offer UHMW and brass. UHMW is very flexible at 1.5mm, but strong. Brass is brass.
When prototypes come in (hopefully soon), I'll be doing initial sound test comparison against my favorite sounding board--LZ CLS with STS plate--and my least favorite sounding board--CA66 with brass plate. I don't have a polycarbonate board on hand, so I'll be sending the prototypes to people who do.
The material is essentially what plastic cutting boards are made of. Someone suggested cutting vegetables on the back of one of the keyboards...
Post by: Jkshowman on Sun, 07 April 2019, 02:28:19
I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.
super interested in that omg
Post by: Puddsy on Sun, 07 April 2019, 02:31:43
So, US manufacturer ✔ - out of California, but back to the Midwest, where I'm originally from. Prices are like a different planet.
Better renders ✔ - coming soon from Tesletron, who was an inspiration for this board in the first place with the Lumina, and its Corian case.
Plates in different materials ✔ - plate files will be posted, but the initial run, I plan to offer UHMW and brass. UHMW is very flexible at 1.5mm, but strong. Brass is brass.
When prototypes come in (hopefully soon), I'll be doing initial sound test comparison against my favorite sounding board--LZ CLS with STS plate--and my least favorite sounding board--CA66 with brass plate. I don't have a polycarbonate board on hand, so I'll be sending the prototypes to people who do.
The material is essentially what plastic cutting boards are made of. Someone suggested cutting vegetables on the back of one of the keyboards...
Send one to Taeha Types
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 07 April 2019, 02:48:07
Send one to Taeha Types
;)
Post by: livingspeedbump on Fri, 12 April 2019, 11:42:02
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 12 April 2019, 21:01:47
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.
Post by: LightningXI on Fri, 12 April 2019, 22:57:23
Friday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.
Wow, quick progress! Exciting development about the prototype. Looking forward to more soonTM...
So does that mean that h87a would be compatible? Or something completely custom?
As for the design, 0 branding is neat -- but I'd be open to anything that suits the designer's tastes.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 12 April 2019, 23:03:11
It’s h87a thicc boi compatible, so it’ll work with the thin and alps as well. Again, I really like Alps in plastic, so I’ll see about an alps plateFriday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.
Wow, quick progress! Exciting development about the prototype. Looking forward to more soonTM...
So does that mean that h87a would be compatible? Or something completely custom?
As for the design, 0 branding is neat -- but I'd be open to anything that suits the designer's tastes.
Post by: p_blaze on Sun, 14 April 2019, 14:02:09
I really like Alps in plastic, so I’ll see about an alps plate
My man of good taste
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Tue, 23 April 2019, 01:07:44
*Manufacturer gave it a go, and... not successful. Honestly, they rushed it. I got a refund. Yay on that.
*I'm trying a different manufacturer. But honestly, I'm already working on the files for injection molding.
The slow annealing is what's really necessary, I think.
But another option would be to incorporate an inner brace/skeleton. HDPE is strong and maintains tolerances easily, while still being translucent.
I can use a HDPE skeleton framework with notches into the upper case, so that it locks together at a bunch of different points. I don't know how that skeleton would affect sound, however.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 23 April 2019, 08:30:17
Sorry I missed the update on Friday. Here's what's going on:
*Manufacturer gave it a go, and... not successful. Honestly, they rushed it. I got a refund. Yay on that.
*I'm trying a different manufacturer. But honestly, I'm already working on the files for injection molding.
The slow annealing is what's really necessary, I think.
But another option would be to incorporate an inner brace/skeleton. HDPE is strong and maintains tolerances easily, while still being translucent.
I can use a HDPE skeleton framework with notches into the upper case, so that it locks together at a bunch of different points. I don't know how that skeleton would affect sound, however.
Injection mold is very cool as well. But what about cost?
I can probably find 4 different threads where I’ve been told injection mold is completely out of the question because of high cost. We’ve been asking for injection mold plastic cases in here for years... hell, maybe even a decade. If you find a way, you just made my year.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Tue, 23 April 2019, 09:44:05
Even with fancy terms like "supercritical nitrogen-infused injection molding," it's really the multiple passes for press fits and guess-work for temperatures and flow rates that you're paying for. Time.
I need to have my hands literally ON the manufacturing. Like my own machines.
I've researched what I need, and I actually could do it on my own. Just need the $.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 23 April 2019, 11:09:34
Yeah cost is high, but like with carbon fiber, again I KNOW it's marked up for the attention to detail and trial & error that has to be done.
Even with fancy terms like "supercritical nitrogen-infused injection molding," it's really the multiple passes for press fits and guess-work for temperatures and flow rates that you're paying for. Time.
I need to have my hands literally ON the manufacturing. Like my own machines.
I've researched what I need, and I actually could do it on my own. Just need the $.
Didn't know the savior would show up on GH on a Tuesday morning. Nice.
Anywhoo.... just show us where to throw the money.
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 18 May 2019, 14:59:16
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 18 May 2019, 17:46:33
My fault! I have been updating the Rukia thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300)
And it all pertains to the Irma project as well. BUT I should have kept updates in this thread also, even if just a hyperlink to the post in the other thread.
I am SO sorry for that. I didn't keep my word. I should have considered that people wouldn't necessarily be interested in both boards just because they're intended to be made of the same material. Different form factors, different interests.
Again, I apologize.
As for updates since the last post, I'll summarize:
Basically, UHMW has been too difficult for every manufacturer I've worked with to CNC. They either lie and say they can do it, then end up with warped prototypes that I have to get a refund for. Or they flat out tell me they won't work with the material. Or they give me unacceptable tolerances. Or they give size constraints due to the warping (no longer than 5").
Injection molding is the answer. But third party injection molding is way too expensive.
Nitrogen infusion is not as complicated as it sounds, though. And an injection molding set up, once done right is pretty easy to operate.
Highest costs are the machining done for the molds. It has to be an exact fit, so material has to be shaved off little by little, checking fit after each pass. That takes time and effort that fabs are going to charge a lot for.
My solution is that I should have my hands directly on the manufacturing...I should be the manufacturer.
So I'm using the Rukia (formerly plastic Alice) project to fund that endeavor. It's a polycarbonate Alice form factor for the first run, then UHMW down the line. Full carbon fiber sandwich is very likely coming sooner than anyone expects.
What I've come up against, though, is that for a first GB, I should keep numbers low to keep quality high. This also makes turnaround much faster, which is better for the buyers, but also lets me get moving on this--Irma--my first project.
Also, I made my profit margins waaay low because who am I? I haven't even done a successful GB yet.
But that leaves me with little to nothing to put into equipment and work space. I'm not intending a giant work shop or production floor like some kickstarters have attempted. I just need three machines and living room size work space to produce these keyboards.
So that's where we're at. Rukia GB is about to drop soon. Rukia will help make Irma happen. This has only really pushed plans back about 90 days, though. I won't let it be a killer setback.
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 18 May 2019, 21:52:47
Post by: minaknits on Fri, 24 May 2019, 20:20:15
OK!Thanks for the update! I just read this thread for the first time and I'm going to keep following you for potential future cases 60% or smaller
My fault! I have been updating the Rukia thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300)
And it all pertains to the Irma project as well. BUT I should have kept updates in this thread also, even if just a hyperlink to the post in the other thread.
I am SO sorry for that. I didn't keep my word. I should have considered that people wouldn't necessarily be interested in both boards just because they're intended to be made of the same material. Different form factors, different interests.
Again, I apologize.
As for updates since the last post, I'll summarize:
Basically, UHMW has been too difficult for every manufacturer I've worked with to CNC. They either lie and say they can do it, then end up with warped prototypes that I have to get a refund for. Or they flat out tell me they won't work with the material. Or they give me unacceptable tolerances. Or they give size constraints due to the warping (no longer than 5").
Injection molding is the answer. But third party injection molding is way too expensive.
Nitrogen infusion is not as complicated as it sounds, though. And an injection molding set up, once done right is pretty easy to operate.
Highest costs are the machining done for the molds. It has to be an exact fit, so material has to be shaved off little by little, checking fit after each pass. That takes time and effort that fabs are going to charge a lot for.
My solution is that I should have my hands directly on the manufacturing...I should be the manufacturer.
So I'm using the Rukia (formerly plastic Alice) project to fund that endeavor. It's a polycarbonate Alice form factor for the first run, then UHMW down the line. Full carbon fiber sandwich is very likely coming sooner than anyone expects.
What I've come up against, though, is that for a first GB, I should keep numbers low to keep quality high. This also makes turnaround much faster, which is better for the buyers, but also lets me get moving on this--Irma--my first project.
Also, I made my profit margins waaay low because who am I? I haven't even done a successful GB yet.
But that leaves me with little to nothing to put into equipment and work space. I'm not intending a giant work shop or production floor like some kickstarters have attempted. I just need three machines and living room size work space to produce these keyboards.
So that's where we're at. Rukia GB is about to drop soon. Rukia will help make Irma happen. This has only really pushed plans back about 90 days, though. I won't let it be a killer setback.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: tex_live_utility on Sat, 25 May 2019, 06:44:10
This is a truly ambitious effort, here's to your success.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sun, 26 May 2019, 18:50:06
That’s been my focus aside from the Rukia GB this week.
I’m getting used CNC equipment, not only because it’s cheaper but also because a lot of the calibration has been done and modifications made to get better tolerances.
But I’m making sure I get it right the first time. I can’t afford to make a bad purchase.
Also haggling for work space. Only need a living room size space. It’s exciting though. Getting lots of help from really experienced experts who are intrigued by the project.
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 10 June 2019, 23:54:58
Updates:
-Will NOT be using a Tormach at all. HAAS all the way
-Suppliers for raw UHMW, liquid nitrogen, and aluminum locked in. Supply chain is very fast btw
-Found a space zoned for industrial use: much cheaper than I ever thought. I don't need a lot of space, so that helps. Also, made sure to check things like fire codes, ventilation, noise ordinances, and a billion other things to make sure I don't get hit with surprise costs after inspection. Just have to wait until the current tenants are finished with their contract, which is beginning of July.
-Irma is first in the queue for production
-Boards will be shipped as I QC them and have a second pair of eyes & hands on them. Luckily, I'm in an area with a lot of community members within driving distance ;)
So FYI:
-Will be using a cold runner system for cost savings; everything has been calculated around this type of system, though, so I'm good
-Heating bands won't be doing as much work as I thought, and are also much simpler to source then I thought. Most of the heat is generated from the screw feeding the plastic into the mold
-I've adjusted the mold designs over and over and over again, but I think I'm finally done. The biggest hurdle was figuring out the correct draft angle to allow the machine to work without creating a vacuum when releasing the finished part. Cooling time was simpler than I thought, and I'll be overdoing it to make extra sure there is no warping.
Edit:
Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.
Post by: stoic-lemon on Tue, 11 June 2019, 01:51:03
Post by: TuCZnak on Tue, 11 June 2019, 09:49:34
Post by: KingOfMemes on Tue, 11 June 2019, 14:42:37
Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.This sounds awesome, and the colorway would look absolutely sick. Also, scheduled updates are best, thanks for doing those.
Post by: tex_live_utility on Tue, 11 June 2019, 22:32:48
Post by: Sycomore on Wed, 12 June 2019, 00:09:21
Post by: pnkpanther65 on Mon, 22 July 2019, 15:18:07
light pigment additive for pastel color options; i fw that heavy
Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.
Post by: Dakk1d on Mon, 22 July 2019, 18:16:46
Post by: Keebo on Tue, 30 July 2019, 20:00:30
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Tue, 30 July 2019, 22:58:26
1A8 rep
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Screamin MIMIs
Post by: sarsaparillagorilla on Thu, 01 August 2019, 05:38:37
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Fri, 02 August 2019, 12:09:09
Well, things are really at a standstill in terms of what I can do outside of my computer.
For what it's worth, here's what I've done on my own to make sure the production models come out as fast as possible once I have the equipment set up in the new facility.
*Modified the draft angles to make sure the parts don't warp on exit.
-For anyone that doesn't know, injection molded parts have to have what's called a "draft angle." The wall edges can't be 90 degrees to the mold base or they create a vacuum as you try to extract them. So the walls have to be at an angle to allow the part to be extracted. This is not a big deal for cheap internal parts, but for something like a case, the draft angle would be unsightly and even mess up fit for switches on something like a high profile top case for example.
What I did was research how Lego does their draft angles, and it's pretty ingenious. I've incorporated this into my mold design. It's complicated and more expensive initially, but it'll be worth it for the final product and in the long run in terms of mold durability.
*Researched annealing times so there won't be extractor pin imprints on the parts as they're pushed out of the molds.
*Designed a maker's mark that can go on each part that includes a bunch of information that will make the part classifiable under certain EU and SEA tariff laws to be exempt from big taxes.
Honestly, I'm doing a lot more on this that I can't even really put into words--there are so many little things that have to be accounted for in the design to make it work, but it's totally doable.
*
Post by: Jkshowman on Sat, 03 August 2019, 03:15:20
Post by: pixelpusher on Mon, 05 August 2019, 14:58:18
Post by: Abec13 on Mon, 05 August 2019, 15:43:39
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Mon, 05 August 2019, 17:05:16
Yeah can we just get this made out of Ojoom slide pucks?
Uh, don’t translate that puck name into Korean...
Post by: LubedNReady on Tue, 06 August 2019, 18:28:05
What I did was research how Lego does their draft angles, and it's pretty ingenious. I've incorporated this into my mold design. It's complicated and more expensive initially, but it'll be worth it for the final product and in the long run in terms of mold durability.
Wow. I like you.
Still amazed this is moving forward. Year after year people say, “you can’t do injection molding, it’s way too expensive.” Really hope this works out. You have my money when the time comes. If you need to make a Kickstarter, you’ll have my money there too.
I'm lubed n ready.
Post by: vilagefool on Thu, 07 November 2019, 21:00:50
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 07 November 2019, 21:36:51
Post by: Jaxxstatic on Sat, 16 November 2019, 21:34:02
I can't even detail all that's been happening concurrently with the Rukia GB, but I'll give some general infos here.
* The space I almost signed a lease on is too small. Would have been nice because it's already zoned correctly and around the corner from my apartment. I'm looking at a new place, and factoring in cost differences to the business plan.
* I almost went through with a crowd funding campaign, but I opted instead to take a different route. I don't want to play with other people's money on something this unproven. However, the more I learn, the more I know this is definitely going to happen. And the final form will be really quite different than anything that's ever been put out in the community. I'm really excited.
* Normally I'd be excited to share all the little details of what's resulted from countless hours of design work, but I'm keeping design details to myself. Sadly, I've learned that not everyone is well-intentioned and magnanimous in the community. All I really care about is making this a reality and getting it into the hands of everyone who wants it.
Post by: pixelpusher on Sun, 17 November 2019, 11:47:59
Out of the countless amazing projects going on, I have 3 on my radar as being unique and impactful on the community and this is one of them.
Please don’t disappear. ^-^
Post by: wholypantalones on Sun, 17 November 2019, 12:06:18
Post by: LightningXI on Sun, 17 November 2019, 14:29:43
Post by: Rob27shred on Sun, 17 November 2019, 16:58:44
Post by: Visionaire on Wed, 01 January 2020, 23:50:35
Post by: TuCZnak on Sat, 29 February 2020, 13:03:29
Post by: avtar on Sat, 29 February 2020, 15:03:03
Post by: aaronlau on Sat, 29 February 2020, 18:08:53
Post by: 1Raku on Sun, 01 March 2020, 00:27:59
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Post by: soloplayer on Wed, 05 May 2021, 03:13:04