Anyon experience with: X1 Carbon 2017 or XPS 9560 or...?

[iLLucionist]

I'm about to replace my ageing MacBook Pro 15" 2010. Man.. that things lags even with Word and Safari. It's almost unusable. It's "let me get another coffee"-slow.

I do light development (Python + tmux), SPSS / R (statistiscs), Illustrator (for figures in academic papers), and Word/Excel.

I'm considering the X1 Carbon 2017 for its legendary keyboard (of course) and small form factor, or the Dell XPS 15 9560 (2017 model) for the raw power, but I also read it's plagued with issues (reddit for instance) as was/is the 9550 (2016 model XPS 15").

Anybody anything to add? Experience with Lenovo / Dell laptops?

I wil NOT buy the new MacBook Pro 2016... that keyboard is utter ****.

[tp4tissue]

Idk man.. if you code.. and it optimizes YOUR LIVELIHOOD..   the Macbook seems like a no brainer. 

The carbon is a nice machine, but anemic.

The xps is better, has better cooling, but still anemic for coding.

IMHO 17 inch is where you get Work DONE..

[vivalarevolución]

I just bought a laptop, a refurbished Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga 260, and went through a lengthy laptop buying process.  All of the internal specs are similar to an X1 Carbon, but it does not have the looks or size.  It does the job for web browsing, light office work, and any other light work that I have to do.  Adequate, but not impressive.  Problem free so far.  The key travel is shallow compared to older Thinkpads, so I wouldn't get too excited about it.  But I do find it better than the typical laptop keyboard.

If you are looking for something to get work done, I would just buy a quad core laptop.  These 15W dual core laptops simply are limited by the power and cores. 

I hear the Dell XPS 15 is hit or miss, depending on what you get.  I looked into the Thinkpad T460p, but some reviews said it does not effectively cool the processor and that affects performance and thermal management.  I guess it all depends upon how hard you are pushing the machine.

[daerid]

<3 my 15" MBP w/ TB, even though I primarily run Windows 10 on it. The touchbar is much, much less annoying than I was expecting. And I actually love the keyboard, to the point where chiclet scissor keys feel super mushy and wrong now.

[iLLucionist]

Bummer... yeah I'm afraid I need some power. Thing is.. SPSS and R run like absolute garbage now on my 2010 MacBook Pro, but it runs wonderfully on my GF's Macbook Air 13" from 2012, which scores around 9000 on geekbench 3.

The i7-7500u in the X1 also scores 9000. But yeah.. perhaps I really need a quad core.

Any other brands / models I can consider? HP looks so... I don't know.

[iLLucionist]

<3 my 15" MBP w/ TB, even though I primarily run Windows 10 on it. The touchbar is much, much less annoying than I was expecting. And I actually love the keyboard, to the point where chiclet scissor keys feel super mushy and wrong now.

No no no... you have Stockholm syndrome now. ;-) That keyboard.. I tried it for half an hour and not even in a slightest second did I think "yeah... this could work". Also, the price is ridiculous, the lack of ports is ridiculous, battery life is absent, and then there are this quirks.

Thing is, ideally I would wait to upgrade until rev2 of the new Macbook pro, but I've also had it with MacOs being slow on whatever I run it, even new hardware. So I'm going back to Windows (unfortunately) with MS Office and Excel and run xubuntu for development and other linux/unix tasks (sysops etc).

[xtrafrood]

From a 'design' perspective the Dell XPS 9560 (1080p Sharp SHP1453 LQ156M1 - at the time of review) does have a slightly better sRGB score on notebookcheck.com (98% vs 95%). If the Carbon uses integrated I'd point out that the XPS 9560 uses Nvidia 960m or Nvidia 1050. I guess the Carbon doesn't have a MX GPU model? From what I've read some of the MX GPUs are actually interchangeable. I think the P50 GPU is soldered and the P70 has the interchangeable/replaceable MX. Sorry, I'm really not that familiar with the Carbon X1.

Anyway, I have zero experience with either laptop but I did have a run of the mill Lenovo G500 for nearly four years. The keyboard was pretty damn good.

[vivalarevolución]

Bummer... yeah I'm afraid I need some power. Thing is.. SPSS and R run like absolute garbage now on my 2010 MacBook Pro, but it runs wonderfully on my GF's Macbook Air 13" from 2012, which scores around 9000 on geekbench 3.

The i7-7500u in the X1 also scores 9000. But yeah.. perhaps I really need a quad core.

Any other brands / models I can consider? HP looks so... I don't know.

I imagine you have tried this already, but have you out a new faster solid state drive in your MacBook?  I did that with a couple peoples' MacBooks from 2010/2011, and it greatly improved performance.

HP has really improved the attractiveness of their laptops, but I can't comment on the quality control.  I have a friend that tried to salvage some older business HPs from his workplace, but those did not hold up as well as the ThinkPads.  They might be making them better now, I don't know.

Personally, I prefer the ThinkPads because I love the Trackpoint, keyboard layout and feel, the classic design aesthetic.  Most business class laptops are built to a similar durability specification and ease of upgrades these days, so I tend to favor those types of models over flashier consumer models.

But I do send by my earlier point that if you don't want to fret about having enough power with an i5 or i7, just jump up to a quad core.  You sacrifice size and battery life, but some of these 14-15 inch laptops are only a tad bigger than 13" laptops and you can always get a power bank for more battery juice.

[tp4tissue]

Bummer... yeah I'm afraid I need some power. Thing is.. SPSS and R run like absolute garbage now on my 2010 MacBook Pro, but it runs wonderfully on my GF's Macbook Air 13" from 2012, which scores around 9000 on geekbench 3.

The i7-7500u in the X1 also scores 9000. But yeah.. perhaps I really need a quad core.

Any other brands / models I can consider? HP looks so... I don't know.

Get wurk done.. GO HOME.. use the desktop.. ahhhh... FREEDOM..

[iLLucionist]

Bummer... yeah I'm afraid I need some power. Thing is.. SPSS and R run like absolute garbage now on my 2010 MacBook Pro, but it runs wonderfully on my GF's Macbook Air 13" from 2012, which scores around 9000 on geekbench 3.

The i7-7500u in the X1 also scores 9000. But yeah.. perhaps I really need a quad core.

Any other brands / models I can consider? HP looks so... I don't know.

Get wurk done.. GO HOME.. use the desktop.. ahhhh... FREEDOM..

Unfortunately, I have to show my face from time to time. Yeah... it's annoying.

Also, it appears to be so that people, for some reason, start conversations with you at the office. This is intolerable!

[Leslieann]

As much as I like the Carbon (and I really do like it!), the Thinkpad P50, X  and T lines are a better options, especially for your planned usage.
The Carbon is more Ultrabook, aimed at home users, while the others are all built to a higher standard, they are more durable, easier to work on and just plain going to last longer. Lenovo's fluid draining keyboards on the corporate line are pretty much the exact opposite of Apple's "fry the system at the first sign of water on a key". Lenovo doesn't fool around with the corporate stuff, silly ideas like the touch bar are not used, and while they tend to be a bit conservative, it's for good reason.

The P50 is a mobile workstation, which may be what you need: Xeon processor, 64gigs of ram, Nvidia Quadro, 2TB drive, 1tb ssd, and room for a third.  The Thinkpad X and T line are more more standard notebooks. I would advise against buying a brand new X or T as those lose value like you won't believe, not because they are terrible, but because corporations buy/lease so dang many of them that they flood the market. This also means parts are cheap for them, even if they rarely need it.


Another I would consider, even though I really HATE Dell, would be the XPS 13. They are nice, but I just have a hard time bringing myself to buy a Dell. Never had a good experience with them myself or with my customers. At one point, I was recommending pretty much anything but a Dell.

2016 Macbook Pro has a lot of issues beyond the bad keyboard. The Thunderbolt is fickle, only working with Texas Instruments chips (I.E. Apple dongles), HDMI adapters were flaking out on people, and while both be fixed now, as of last month using the USB ports (even for charging) would cause wifi to go nuts (that's some quality testing right there!). That's besides the other issues Apple has. I like my Air, but I wouldn't dare buy any other Apple laptop, even I were to do it again, I'd probably have an X250 or X260 (maybe loaded with Mac?).

[tp4tissue]

Bummer... yeah I'm afraid I need some power. Thing is.. SPSS and R run like absolute garbage now on my 2010 MacBook Pro, but it runs wonderfully on my GF's Macbook Air 13" from 2012, which scores around 9000 on geekbench 3.

The i7-7500u in the X1 also scores 9000. But yeah.. perhaps I really need a quad core.

Any other brands / models I can consider? HP looks so... I don't know.

Get wurk done.. GO HOME.. use the desktop.. ahhhh... FREEDOM..

Unfortunately, I have to show my face from time to time. Yeah... it's annoying.

Also, it appears to be so that people, for some reason, start conversations with you at the office. This is intolerable!

Yea.. it's really dumb..

I think DBAs have the best job in the current it field..

They just do it from home.. get paid ~100-140k .. go in maybe twice a week for meetings..

[iLLucionist]

As much as I like the Carbon (and I really do like it!), the Thinkpad P50, X  and T lines are a better options, especially for your planned usage.
The Carbon is more Ultrabook, aimed at home users, while the others are all built to a higher standard, they are more durable, easier to work on and just plain going to last longer. Lenovo's fluid draining keyboards on the corporate line are pretty much the exact opposite of Apple's "fry the system at the first sign of water on a key". Lenovo doesn't fool around with the corporate stuff, silly ideas like the touch bar are not used, and while they tend to be a bit conservative, it's for good reason.

The P50 is a mobile workstation, which may be what you need: Xeon processor, 64gigs of ram, Nvidia Quadro, 2TB drive, 1tb ssd, and room for a third.  The Thinkpad X and T line are more more standard notebooks. I would advise against buying a brand new X or T as those lose value like you won't believe, not because they are terrible, but because corporations buy/lease so dang many of them that they flood the market. This also means parts are cheap for them, even if they rarely need it.


Another I would consider, even though I really HATE Dell, would be the XPS 13. They are nice, but I just have a hard time bringing myself to buy a Dell. Never had a good experience with them myself or with my customers. At one point, I was recommending pretty much anything but a Dell.

2016 Macbook Pro has a lot of issues beyond the bad keyboard. The Thunderbolt is fickle, only working with Texas Instruments chips (I.E. Apple dongles), HDMI adapters were flaking out on people, and while both be fixed now, as of last month using the USB ports (even for charging) would cause wifi to go nuts (that's some quality testing right there!). That's besides the other issues Apple has. I like my Air, but I wouldn't dare buy any other Apple laptop, even I were to do it again, I'd probably have an X250 or X260 (maybe loaded with Mac?).

Thanks for the insights.

Yeah well.. the Lenovo P51s (upcoming) looks lovely (compact yet powerful), but it seems like (a) it does not come with quad core processors, and (b) the screens are -again - PWM and 60% Adobe sRGB coverage AT BEST. Sigh..

[tp4tissue]

Thanks for the insights.

Yeah well.. the Lenovo P51s (upcoming) looks lovely (compact yet powerful), but it seems like (a) it does not come with quad core processors, and (b) the screens are -again - PWM and 60% Adobe sRGB coverage AT BEST. Sigh..

why do you care about rgb ? none of the laptops have very good screens, they're OKKKK, even if it has high coverage, it's not going to have very good uniformity because of the way these screens are mounted, it's not on a rigid surface leading to non-uniformity as is, or develop non-uniformity over time..

[xtrafrood]

Thanks for the insights.

Yeah well.. the Lenovo P51s (upcoming) looks lovely (compact yet powerful), but it seems like (a) it does not come with quad core processors, and (b) the screens are -again - PWM and 60% Adobe sRGB coverage AT BEST. Sigh..

why do you care about rgb ? none of the laptops have very good screens, they're OKKKK, even if it has high coverage, it's not going to have very good uniformity because of the way these screens are mounted, it's not on a rigid surface leading to non-uniformity as is, or develop non-uniformity over time..

High spec sRGB/Adobe RGB is a major factor as to why people buy Macbook Pros. C'mon tp4tissue.

[vivalarevolución]

I have a newish Thinkpad with a mediocre screen that does not rate well on all the screen color ratings.  Its fine for the work I do on it, which does not involve any intensive photo or video editing.  If you are doing mainly office work and programming type stuff, I wouldn't fret too much over the screen.  Geeks like us tend to fret too much over the small stuff rather than focus on the important features for what we do.

Personally, I recommend checking out Mobile Tech Reviews on YouTube, as Lisa does a great job of reviewing the screen quality and comparing different types of screens. 

[tp4tissue]

Thanks for the insights.

Yeah well.. the Lenovo P51s (upcoming) looks lovely (compact yet powerful), but it seems like (a) it does not come with quad core processors, and (b) the screens are -again - PWM and 60% Adobe sRGB coverage AT BEST. Sigh..

why do you care about rgb ? none of the laptops have very good screens, they're OKKKK, even if it has high coverage, it's not going to have very good uniformity because of the way these screens are mounted, it's not on a rigid surface leading to non-uniformity as is, or develop non-uniformity over time..

High spec sRGB/Adobe RGB is a major factor as to why people buy Macbook Pros. C'mon tp4tissue.

maybe for n00bs or wannabee photographers. hahahaha.

[iLLucionist]

Thanks for the insights.

Yeah well.. the Lenovo P51s (upcoming) looks lovely (compact yet powerful), but it seems like (a) it does not come with quad core processors, and (b) the screens are -again - PWM and 60% Adobe sRGB coverage AT BEST. Sigh..

why do you care about rgb ? none of the laptops have very good screens, they're OKKKK, even if it has high coverage, it's not going to have very good uniformity because of the way these screens are mounted, it's not on a rigid surface leading to non-uniformity as is, or develop non-uniformity over time..

High spec sRGB/Adobe RGB is a major factor as to why people buy Macbook Pros. C'mon tp4tissue.

maybe for n00bs or wannabee photographers. hahahaha.

Gray/white uniformity (backlight) AND color uniformity are an issue across the whole spectrum of monitors nowadays, not only monitors found in laptops. In my experience, the only way to truly salvage that is donating some organs to buy a professional high-end monitor with serious uniformity compensation, like the PA272. Even Dell's high-end monitors suck, comparatively speaking. Eizo also has some color accurate displays.

Typically, uniformity is an issue on larger panels (24" and above), not so much on lower panels, as reviews of the Razer Blade and XPS screens (Sharp or LG panels? I forgot) indicate. I'm not sure what Apple puts in their MacBook Pro's nowadays, but those also have fairly good uniformity scores, both backlight uniformity as well as color uniformity. As a matter of fact, Apple's screens even support the P3 gamut stantard, which exceeds sRGB coverage.

I am, actually, a semi-pro (outgrown hobby) photographer, but I do not have money to buy expensive monitors, probably because I buy too many boards and stuff . So I try to get the best bang out of the buck. And Lenovo's screens REALLY ARE CRAP, except for the one's they put in the X1 Carbon and the YOGA.

Lenovo laptop screens typically have only up to 50% Adobe RGB coverage, whereas more high end laptops (XPS, Razer Blade, MacBook Pro) have 98-99% coverage, they have PWM, low nits (<= 250 nits), bad uniformity, backlight bleeding like your 32" IPS panels, and ghosting. The only upside is that they have matte displays.

I'm really REALLY sensitive to PWM, so I replaced all my monitors with non-PWM screens and never since then have I had eye issues. Alongside color accuracy and overall quality of the screen, I cannot choose a Lenovo that features a crappy screen, even though I really like the T470 / P50 / P51 otherwise.

The alternative would be the Dell XPS but yeah... so many issues. Throttling, heat, noise, warped case, backlight bleeding, dead pixel, battery life issues, coil whine. W T F.

[tp4tissue]

Not against you getting a macbook..

I'm merely pointing out that the actual UTILITY of an accurate display is low outside of Professionals who actually use it FOR A LIVING..


For .. the amateur photo/videographer..   who's going to see his "work". Does this person even make prints, and if those prints are a little off, what are the consequences..

Since the output for the hobbyist have NO REAL consequence..  There is zero reason to chase color accuracy to begin with.

He could do it all by eye, and if it looks good to him and the 5 people that will ever see his stuff,  It's Fine..



Accuracy and high gamut comes into play when PAYMENT demands it.. outside of Reproduction work, it's just another marketing gimmick to sell you something.


Buy my super accurate 0.01mm tolerance cup cozy.. it will keep your coffee warm WITH PRECISION.. only $49.99 per cozy



They've done GOOD engineering to build many of these "high end" products,  But in the end, the GREATEST engineer on their team, is the guy who engineered how to get more money out of you selling you something that does NOTHING for you.


With the current electronics landscape, a person really has to ask WHY, because even if an object is a good thing on its own,   if it does nothing for you,  it's no different from waste/junk/rubbish..

Marketing is the devil.

[xtrafrood]

I have a newish Thinkpad with a mediocre screen that does not rate well on all the screen color ratings.  Its fine for the work I do on it, which does not involve any intensive photo or video editing.  If you are doing mainly office work and programming type stuff, I wouldn't fret too much over the screen.  Feels like us tend to fret too much over the small stuff rather than focus on the important features for what we do.

Personally, I recommend checking out Mobile Tech Reviews on YouTube, as Lisa does a great job of reviewing the screen quality and comparing different types of screens.

One of the few channels that run tests to check for color gamut and things of that nature. And she always makes a point to explain the level of difficulty in upgrading

[vivalarevolución]

I have a newish Thinkpad with a mediocre screen that does not rate well on all the screen color ratings.  Its fine for the work I do on it, which does not involve any intensive photo or video editing.  If you are doing mainly office work and programming type stuff, I wouldn't fret too much over the screen.  Feels like us tend to fret too much over the small stuff rather than focus on the important features for what we do.

Personally, I recommend checking out Mobile Tech Reviews on YouTube, as Lisa does a great job of reviewing the screen quality and comparing different types of screens.

One of the few channels that run tests to check for color gamut and things of that nature. And she always makes a point to explain the level of difficulty in upgrading

Another Mobile Tech Reviews fan!  Pretty much everything is difficult to upgrade these days, except the non-ultrabook business class laptops and beefy gaming laptops.  It's the price of the endless pursuit of thin and light. Notebookcheck is another very detail review site.

As for the OP's search, it's near impossible to find a laptop with all that we need and want at the price we would like.  If you need a decent screen, which basically does not exist in ThinkPads under $2000, my recommendation is checking out the Dell business class laptops (even though you don't like Dell).  They put the same well rated screens of their consumer models into the business laptops.  And the laptops are more durable, easier to upgrade, have a better keyboard than the XPS, and some even have Dell's version of the Trackpoint.  Prices are typically higher, but I use peruse the Dell Outlet for a discount:. http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/22/campaigns/outlet?c=us&l=en&s=df

[Leslieann]

Thanks for the insights.

Yeah well.. the Lenovo P51s (upcoming) looks lovely (compact yet powerful), but it seems like (a) it does not come with quad core processors, and (b) the screens are -again - PWM and 60% Adobe sRGB coverage AT BEST. Sigh..

If you really need that, you are probably going to have to base your decision around that more than anything else and odds are, a corporate/small business grade laptop isn't going to be on the table.

BTW, there is some dispute on the P50, I have seen as high as 85% of Adobe. Also, there is reports of at least one person with a Quad core.